I am getting that loud and clear, even if it may appear that I am not.
No one wants to believe the person they love is capable of doing such hurtful things, even if the intent was not there to begin with. The H is a good guy who got caught up in a not good thing. I will probably never fully recover, but I can work towards that along with him. Your words have been helpful, even if it appears that I question everything you say.

Fiori,

Does she still work in the same building as your H?

I posted the following on another thread titled "The Affair Addiction", but was asked to post it here to you. (Anything in bold font is from the other thread)


I can certainly attest to this. My situation is a prime example of what not to do. I kept myself stuck in withdrawal for over 2 years because I continued to work with my FOM. In these 2 years I had no desire to get back into the A, I just couldn't break free of my addiction.

After I ended the A I learned about the addiction part of it and agreed it was a huge part of it. The scary part of the addiction is during the 2 years FOM and I worked together I didn't even realize how much I was still addicted to him. We did our best to remain professional, but the addiction was still there and kept me very stuck. I couldn't get over certain aspects of the A, but couldn't figure out why, (duh). I thought I had a good handle on it, but in all reality I didn't. It wasn't until after FOM left our employer and moved out of town that I finally could get through withdrawal. I should also add it was this bad for me and I only worked about 6 days a month. I can only imagine it would be much worse for someone who works with the AP on a full-time basis.

Now every time I read where AP's are still working together I just cringe. I wasted 2 years of my time in withdrawal and at the same time, for one of the years, trying to rebuild my marriage. Talk about a lot of mental anguish and conflict.

My advice to everyone from a BTDT POV, a WS needs to get as far away from the AP as they can.

This is an add on to what I posted on the other thread.

Even if your H doesn't work directly with her, but they are still working for the same company he will remain in some sort of withdrawal, IMO anyway.

Like I said above, I only worked, at the most, 6 days a month. The company FOM and I worked for had 2 offices across town from each other. Once the A ended FOM did his best to schedule himself at the opposite office than the one I was working at. We didn't physically work together often at all, but just the reminders all around me and knowing he wasn't all that far away were enough to keep me hooked.

Even though I was totally committed to my marriage and had no desire whatsoever to get back into the A, it didn't lessen the addiction because I did not remove myself from the situation.

LC

Thanks for that excellent post, lc!

Oh good grief.

Fiori,

My opinion would be yes, again from a BTDT POV. My FOM and I did not have sex, but did have some physical contact (dancing and kissing). It was the emotional connection that had me hooked, not the physical contact.

LC

Harsh reality, but loud and clear. I knew these things, but they just weren't making it through before. H and I talked about the addiction factor last night. He also sees it now. I saw it when I discovered the A and during WD (before MB), but somehow that became less clear over time. I still had the uneasy feeling that under the wrong circumstances, he wouldn't maintain NC, but chalked it up to my own sometimes nutty behavior with the triggers. I fogged about his addictive behavior during and immediately following the A. H is actively seeking new employment in a different field starting today. Still working for current with NC provisions in place. While not a perfect solution, I'm not worried about contact with OW right now.
Congratulations on your sobriety! My BIL is 12 years in May, so from an outsiders point at least, I can appreciate the hard work you've done and continue. Another thought with that analogy though... My BIL drank whiskey- that was the downfall, but when that wasn't available, he'd go with whatever was- right down to cough syrup and vanilla- so why does it help to change jobs?
It won't be the same OW, but there's always one lurking?
I still have to say trust your instincts on some of this. I think at least for a while the BS views the WS warily anyway, so when there are good times, appreciate them as such. This is one of the MB principles! There's a reason why we need to have fun together, so we can develop those feelings of love and affection again.

Thought this site was for support? Good grief, Big K! (lol)I expected more in depth insight after reading some of your other posts.

That comment was past tense. I had no knowledge of MB or the Harley's at the time. I received conflicting opinions from the people I spoke to and that was the decision I made based on my emotional state following Dday. When I said I didn't want to inflict pain, I was referring to my decision at that time. It was a position I never expected to be in and my decision making skills left a lot to be desired as I was in that whirlwind. I considered every possible scenario and way over analyzed what could happen. I was still in the blaming myself state. Now I would tell.
...As we know better, we do better.

A person who is serious about recovery REMOVES the booze from his house and stays away from obvious triggers. This is why recovering alcoholics stay out of bars. An addict who is serious about recovery removes the cough syrup and mouth wash from his house during his withdrawal.


But he isn't addicted to another OW, just the one at work. Other women at work are not a threat unless he is addicted to having AFFAIRS, which is usually not the case.

However, the chances of a 2nd affair, with OW or even a new OW, are much greater with a WS who has not recovered than with one who has.[a WS who works with his OW is not recovered] So continuing to work with one's affair partner increases the chances of a repeat because the thrill of his past affair is always top of mind. He never withdraws.

Turksmom, no one is saying that a WS can't resume an affair if he really wants to. Wild horses will not stop him if he is seeking it. But if he is NOT SEEKING it and wants to make sure he is not triggered, the answer is to remove the triggers. It's the only way to recover. It only makes sense that the alcoholic who is really serious would want to leave the bar, ie: the scene of the crime.

The notion that abstinence is essential to recovery from an addiction is Addiction 101, and is the foundation of any successful recovery program. That's pretty basic.

excerpt from Dr. Harley in Requirements for Recovery:


The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=147963&Number=2002600#Post2002600

Have you and your H watched the Infidelity Video? Dr. Harley also talks about extreme precautions.

Extreme precautions is something my H and I still talk about today. I still worry that his lack of having boundaries when chatting with coworkers will lead to him having another EA.

Per TST's post, if you counsel with the Harleys this is something they have the WS work on (an EPs list).

My H extreme precaution list includes no activites with any woman alone(such as lunch at work, etc), no talking of personal problems with any woman one on one at work or through email, phone, etc., etc.

I didn't realize there were several people here whose WS's were still working with their OP. Wanted to chime in with my H's lies of NC while working with his OW.

My H swore on a stack of bibles that he and OW were maintaining NC at work. The last two weeks at his job, he even made up a story that they would not be scheduled together...

Several weeks later after he left that place of employment and he started to de-fog, he admitted that they had maintained contact the entire time, talking, etc at work.

Please, please be well aware that there is a good chance your WS may be lying about NC if they are still working with their OP.

ps. I mean YOUR version of NC when I use "NC" above. I agree with everything Melody has posted...that NC isn't in place as long as APs are working together.

Mel and BP,
Thanks for the further explanation. H and I did not view the video yet. Just found out about it and had planned to do it tonight. I did read SAA last year and H is working on reading it. I should probably read again. I didn't give NC as much thought since I found MB months after dday and figured if they weren't talking, it was enough. OW's in a different state and works for a different company than H, but one that he deals with. Thought that was good enough, H implemented EPs you specifically mentioned at my request prior to MB. I was making it up as I went along, but it looks like I got some of it right. Now that H sees addiction too, I've changed my mind. Should say that H agrees wholeheartedly, not because he's been tempted to have contact, but because he sees his failure to see things clearly then and understands my discomfort more.

I have more to say about FAP's working together.

During the 2 years FOM and I worked together we tried to keep everything professional, but there were times he and I did talk about things we shouldn't have.

There were times we exchanged what a WS would consider innocent conversation, but in all really nothing is innocent after an A. I always thought about my DH when FOM and I talked but it didn't stop me from talking to him completely.

I remember one time FOM said to me, "Hey, take a look computer background. You will love it, it's a pic I took from my boat." I responded, "Wow, great pic, it's looks like a great day on the lake." Then to myself, "Shoot, I can't talk to him about this." Only it was too late, we already did talk about it. I justified it as innocent conversation and did not tell my H about it. "Why hurt him over something so minor" was what I thought. (eye roll)

We really did try, but in all reality it's very easy to talk about things a person shouldn't. We never talked about anything inappropriate, but just talking in general fed the addiction. Just knowing he was in the building, fed my addiction, knowing he was sitting in his office, fed my addiction, seeing his car in the parking lot, fed the addiction. I could go on all day with the trivial things that fed the addiction. I cannot stress enough how distance from him would have helped my marriage, I honestly didn't see it. Now it is clear as day.

And don't for a second believe a WS is telling you everything. I don't doubt they are telling some sort of the truth, just probably not the whole truth.

True NC cannot be established if AP's remain working together.

LC

Fiori,
We're bouncing opposite threads at the same time here. Figured you'd eventually get to this one. No messages yet. Maybe it takes a while. I'll check later. How was the weekend?
Turk

The weekend was good. Not great, but good. But, it was 'not great' simply because our family stuff did not click this weekend...it had nothing to do with EA. But, this is hard for me. I feel like I always have to be perfect and cannot be upset or angry as I fear it will lead him back to HER! Fortunately, I am able to talk to H very openly and I explained this to him. He's been good with me and me back to him. So, I learn that it's still a process. This is the part I struggle with alot. How do you go back to regular life and feel secure and safe? I fear that if I nag him or do something that he's not pleased with, he'll run back to OW. Does this ever occur to you? My issue was because he became emotionally entangled. And, as many have pointed out...he still is employed at the same place as OW. Well, I hope these crazy feelings go away once he changes jobs. He's promised to make it a top priority as he had admitted that he's let that part of the recovery slip. Neither of us likes change...but we both know it absolutely necessary in order to move completely forward. Right now, we take many forward steps, but a few side ways one's too and that's not progress.
What's up with you? How did the employment issue for H work out? And, about the private messege...I sent it yesterday. Did you go into 'my stuff" and see it there?

fiori, I am glad he has made it a top priority! No contact is not "part of" recovery, that is what needs to happen so recovery CAN START. There is absolutely nothing you can do that will compensate for his continued contact with the OW. You will - rightfully - wonder if today is the day when you send him off to work. He can't withdraw and you can't heal under those circumstances.

Also, the private messaging is turned off, y'all. You will have to exchange emails.

Mel,
Thanks about the private messege thing...
Also, I thought of you and bitter yesterday. H and I had a disagreement about $$. We are in the midst of a kitchen overhaul and it's costing more $$ than I care to think about. Anyway, he was in a mood, something that happens when he writes too many checks. So, he was a bit testy with me and I did not like the tone he took. I'm still at the stage of the game where I'm unsure as to how 'real' I can be. I don't want to be what can be perceived as b#*tchy. But, let's face it, I can't be June Cleaver the rest of my life. I have to be me, and he was not being very nice (in my opinion). So, I told him so. He listened and we were able to come to a resolution with apologies...blah, blah, blah..basic married life stuff. Anyway, afer we hung up the phone and before the apology part I panicked. I thought 'oh crap...she's there, I'm here and he's going to go talk to her out of spite" No, mind you, he's not a spiteful person at all but that had no bearing on my fear. So, I get what you're saying. He called 10 minutes later and I told him what I was feeling. I also cut/pasted the posting from you and the others and sent them to him via email. We talked for a long while. I realized then, that if she was not within walking distance I may have NOT felt scared about setting him straight on how I perceived our conversation to be going. We talked a long time and more once he returned home. I get it...I really do. And, I'm thinking he does too. His committment to US has to include getting out of dodge! Thanks...

This is VERY CRUCIAL for you to recognize, Fiori.

As BSes, we suffer from PTSD.

Infidelity is a MAJOR LIFE TRAUMA which takes TIME in HEALING.

Even to this day, over 4 years past D-Day, I STILL occasionally, although VERY SELDOM, feel this PANIC.

It helps to know what it is so that you can IDENTIFY it for yourself and learn how to cope with it.

Certainly, YOU WILL NEED TO FEEL SAFE and you are deserving of FEELING SAFE...as you are learning here...

I am so glad to hear it, fiori! You are seeing what we are trying to tell you. All it takes is ONE WEAK moment with your H and the affair is back on, because the opportunity is within arms reach.

You will find that you will both change quite a bit once he leaves. You will finally RELAX and live in some semblance of peace and you will see him become LESS FOGGY and detached.


Its ok to be YOU as long as YOU does not LOVEBUST. If the REAL YOU is lovebusting, then the REAL YOU has to change! But, in order for your marriage to be happy, you do have to COMPLAIN [not [censored], but complain] so that he will know what he is doing that bothers you.

You did the right thing in telling him about your unhappiness with his nasty mood. If he continues doing that, you will FALL OUT OF LOVE with him and he needs to know that. You did good!

Complaining in Marriage

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife says that she wishes she could talk to me about the things she is dissatisfied with in our marriage, so they could be addressed. But when she does talk to me about these things, I get frustrated because it seems like she is never happy with me. The progress I make doesn't seem to matter.

I often see her explaining what she is upset about as complaining and only focusing on the negative. I don't often feel like she has recognized the good things about us. I want her to be more positive. I think she complains too much and does not see the good in some situations. I want her perspective to change, but she doesn't think she has to do something different to make this happen.

Thanks for your help.

R.D.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear R.D.

On average, women complain far more often than men, in both good and bad marriages. But there is a difference in how the complaints are received in those marriages. In good marriages, a complaint is regarded as a problem to be solved with wisdom and compassion. In bad marriages, a complaint is viewed as an unnecessary irritant -- something that should be either ignored or reacted to with anger and disrespect.

Remember what a complaint is -- it's a reminder that you are losing love units in your account in your wife's Love Bank. She is simply giving you accurate information about the present state of your relationship. While it may be discouraging to hear that you are losing ground, to be kept in the dark about such losses would be worse in the long run.

More than anything else, your wife wants to be in love with you, and you want her to be in love with you. So to achieve that crucial objective you must know when her love for you is being threatened by behavior that makes her unhappy. If your marriage has any hope of recovery, she must tell you how she feels about your behavior, and you must make corrections to eliminate her negative reactions.

Your wife's high incidence of negative reactions simply reflects the number of issues that have yet to be resolved in your marriage. If you want her to be more positive, you must address those issues, and eliminate them one at a time. You've had success in the past, and she has been very encouraged when that happens. But when you seem to be overwhelmed by it all, and tell her that she must learn to be more positive, she feels hopeless because there remain many issues that must be resolved if she is to be happy and in love with you.

The harder you try to become sensitive to your wife reactions, the more successful you will become in doing what it takes to make her happy. The more you try to avoid anger, replacing it with empathy (an effort to try to understand how your wife feels without being defensive), the more your wife will feel your care for her, and that in itself will make massive Love Bank deposits.

Remember, all of your efforts on your wife's behalf make a
difference in the way you think and behave. You are rerouting
neural pathways in your brain that will make it easier for you to care for her in the future. While it may seem like a lot of
effort now, in the future, it will be almost effortless to address your wife's complaints, and solve her problems with compassion.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.