What do you mean?

And don't you think that most men have one set of moves...they probably use the same ones over and over. I know my hubby does.

HTM

When I met him it was at the train station. We both lived in the same building for 3 years but never met til at the train. We worked in the city about 4 blocks from each other. He used to call mid day and we'd go for walks and have lunch in the park. It was totally innocent but it was special. We never so much as touched each other for several months as we were both dating others but were establishing a good friendship! Ha! Anyway, now it dawns on me that this is what he was doing with her...leaving mid day (together) and walking to pick up a slice of pizza etc...
I was pretty angry last night. He could sense it but I was totally NOT up for an argument. So, we chatted nicely. I told him I was disappointed that he tarnished what always seemed specail to me. I was hurt that he would trash our memories with her. I told him he was not unique at all and that he was just looking like that horrific parodied man on a sit-com-- the one who has a wife and flirts around town with another.
You have to understand...this is sooooo NOT him. He's always been the most gentlemanly and kind person I've ever known. His eyes spoke volumes to me and I always knew I was loved. I was so overconfident that I think that may have been my demise. I suppose that is normal. He very often brings up the fact that for 16 years he did nothing wrong...he made a mistake by allowing his friendship to cross the line but it was a mistake.
I think I want him to despise her.
I went to church yesterday morning and the sermon was about the commandment 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. I sat there and cried. Monsignor talked about having to forgive your neighbor even if you don't particularly like them. I am struggling with this one. I feel guilty because I cannot do this. Perhaps over time...but not now. I think of her and my blood runs cold. I know my anger is misdirected alot of the time...but I live with this man and I love him and I know if I put all the anger I have and direct it towards him I may not survive this. I don't want to be a bitter lonely old woman. So, it's easier to be slightly angry with him, more sad really, and very angry with her. I feel betrayed by the both. So, he really needs a new job because I cannot take this any more. The fact that he goes to the city every day and the opportunity sits at his feet is sickening to me. You're seeing a new side of me. I'm usually so upbeat and cheery, but not right now. Perhaps I'm in a new phase of this process...the angry phase. I really should find a counselor, but the thought of bringing someone up to speed and starting to dig up the emotions is exhausting just in thought. I will call later...as long as my son is occupied, as I'd prefer he not overhear anything. Thanks.

You can get through this. It will be ok.

Your H is making such effort. I think you are just processing your emotions and it really isn't something that HE can do better or worse. It's unfair, but it's YOUR job.

Our MC told me that while he wants me to move forward (past the A), that there is nobody who can tell me when to do that. He says that it is different for each person and that it is something that I have to get through. H can support me, but in the end, it is MY work. When I am finally able to let go of the A, we can work on our M.

I haven't found the same anger that you have, but I also spent the year in between d-days processing a lot of the anger. I am dealing more with trust and lies as opposed to the actions of the A. I already sort of KNEW about that stuff and had time to be angry and hurt.

Tyk described it really well in a post today. I actually emailed it to H because it did such a good job of describing the "job" of the WS and the challenge of the BS. I'll try to find it and copy it here.

Know that I am here for you and think about you often.

You WILL get through this.

HTM

I started a new thread so I can vent....
It's in GQ11 and is called dumpy redhead gardening. This was very helpful to me.

Here's what Tyk said (hope you don't mind Tyk...it was just a nice summary of things your WW did and things you fought to overcome within yourself)...

ILMH Quote:
Can you give my an example of some of the things your W was doing? I feel like i am definitely doing all those thing you mentioned, but i don't want to leave any stone unturned. What things worked for you two in helping you feel like she was doing all she could towards recovery? I want TTH to see that i am serious about our recovery. I want those deep wounds to heal.

Tyk's reponse:
My W did many things, but I think the most important thing she did was to actually change her attitude towards me. She recognized the real hurt she had inflicted, and did not try to justify, explain, or defend herself. She apologized several repeatedly, she made herself completely accountable for all time, gave me access to her phone, switched jobs to get away from OM, etc. This is all the general stuff that is recommended here to facilitate recovery.

She also took some lumps from me. There were a handful of instances where I did not react very well, where I engaged in some love busting and said some not very nice things. She did not respond in kind and escalate the situation, instead taking the high road and tried to empathize with me and what I was feeling.

As far as some of the actual concrete things she did: shortly after D-Day she booked us a long weekend away together. We started giving each other massages. We had SF, ALOT. She started playing golf with me and has continued to do so. Basically, BOTH of our focus is now about each other, we both changed and made the M our #1 priority. Pre-A, this was not the case for either of us.

I sympathize alot with TTH, his situation and his timeline are pretty similar to my own. Almost everything he is going through and feeling I felt at one point, and it was not so very long ago at all, so I hope that I can reach a hand out to both of you and help you through these times like so many did for me. If you read my recovery thread, you will see that what I was posting is very similar to what TTH is posting. It may help you get a feel for the timelines involved in this, and it may give you some ideas. I struggled greatly with the "why" question, for months. I don't struggle with it much anymore, if at all. I don't feel that I found the answer, I just don't care much about the question anymore. I got tired of thinking about it. I had to begin to let go of the pain and the hurt of the past in order to begin to truly enjoy the present.

Time and consistency is what he needs from you in order to begin to trust that what he is seeing in you NOW is real. Its very hard to juxtapose the WW with a truly repentent FWW. We see what we've wanted to see for so long in the FWW. We see what we've worked for for so long, and through so much pain and turmoil, but it is very very hard to trust it. Because we have been decieved. Our life has been a lie for a very long time. We've lived in a world where we can't trust our W, and we've lost some faith in ourselves as well. We see our FWW, and we know that that is what we WANT, but we also know that a very short time ago that person was lying thier [censored] off to us. That creates a reality conflict, because we did NOT trust ourselves as the A was going on, much to our detriment, so we are afraid to trust that the FWW is REAL, because we have seen the danger in believing what we WANT to believe. It takes some time to start to piece reality back together. Part of that process is trying to figure out how this could happen. He needs to be able to get through his pain and anger without driving you away. You have to be able to witness it, to take some of it. The worst thing for me is that I was afraid of my emotions. And I was afraid to express them to my W. I was afraid that they would drive her away. This would cause me to bottle them up until they erupted, sometimes in a less than ideal way. If/when this happens, you need to be ready to deal with it.

Hope this helps.
HTM

fiori,

I didn't want to T/J HTM's thread so found your post to bump it and get clarity about your post?

Are you saying that your H still works with OW and you are not checking his phone regularly????

I need to read your whole post so I can gain some perspective of where you are at now, but that really stung with me because I come from the perspective that it is part of the EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS and FULL DISCLOSURE boundaries that I have set up with H. He even stated that in his NC text to OW this last time that he would be having me check his phone regularly to ensure that he kept his word (his choice to state that).

I could be way off base, but it feels like you are walking behind a horse and "hoping" that he won't kick you.

Correct me if I'm wrong girl!!

Only,
The only part you have wrong is the 'with'. H still works at the same company. They do not work together, he had her transferred back in October to another area. Because of her transfer they do not overlap in any area of business so there is no longer any reason to communicate. This was a tough point for both of them to realize, as they kept communication up for several months after the supposed split.
So, as it stands now, he 'reports' to me regularly as to whether or not there was any form of contact at all. So far, as of February there has been none (to my knowledge). I went to his work a few weeks ago and he made it a point to show me which part of the building she was in so that I'd feel easier about the distance and the realization that there is no reason for her to come anywhere near his side of the building. Ok...do I look dumb? There was no real reason for 8 months, but it happened anyway. So, now he searches for a new job. He has sent out several resume's and is anxious to put this chapter of our lives behind us. I'm not sure that ever really occurs, but we can try. Theirs was not a PA, but the pain is real and horrific non the less. I have explained to him that every day when he walks out our front door, he picks a scab. He is not giving us the opportunity to reach a full sense of recovery until she is no longer sharing the same zip code. My real fear is that he will switch jobs and she will follow. Trust me, she is that bold. Then, what do we do? Anyway, I'm learning to take one day at a time so I'll worry about that only when/if I have to. As for the phone checking, I do it sporatically. He's never had a problem with me checking. But, honestly, it makes me physically sick to do so. AS soon as I touch the phone I can feel things moving internally that should be at rest. My pulse soars and I get very agitated. He works in the financial industry and his work phone plan does not include texting. So, all I can really look for is an incomming or outgoing # and emails. I have seen many emails from her before and have seen the # on caller id...but now for months. I feel the craziness coming my way, but sometimes I feel guilty when I look. I don't want to have to....but I realize I do. It makes me sick that my marriage has come to a point where I have to check up on my H to see if he's totally committed to me.
All I have right now is his word and his actions. I can see that he treats me much differently than he did when she was the influence that he was under. He prides himself on saying "I never have ever said a bad thing about you to OW". Big flipping whoop! I told him that every time he spoke to her and they both knew it was wrong, he was saying all kinds of bad things about me without saying anything at all. I don't always think he 'gets it' but then other times I do. This is a very confusing part of life to be in. I don't want you or anyone else to think I'm making excuses...because I am not. I have been stripped to the core and I fully expect/need H to bring me back. But, the parts of me that I have to fix, I will.
So, what do you think?

Aha...now I have a clearer picture.

I totally understand where you are coming from. My heart starts beating faster and I even get a little nervous like he is going to "catch" me (even though this is an agreed upon effort) and even feel guilty scooping it up and looking at it when he is in the room. It's a yucky place to be!

I'm really thinking of taking LA's suggestion of having a specific time that I check phone and email and having my DH with me so that we can do it together and even discuss the triggers and use it as a healing experience instead. It seems like it would beat the feelings I described above. I'll let you know how that goes, you may even consider it yourself. And another suggestion that she made was that I continue to do it even when I am trusting him and here's why....I had stopped doing it for SEVERAL months and the same OW from last year came back into the picture during the month of April and first part of May. :eek:

His were never PA's either, but that doesn't matter...still hurts like heck!!! And she's a frumpy older woman that works at the grocery store that he and his fellow co-workers frequent in the mornings on their way out to the field. He is currently off on a back injury, but when he returns I won't be ok with him being in that store.

Sigh!!! It takes time fiori....we can get through this.

Just to play devil's advocate....if you have a designated time to check the phone, doesn't it seem like he'd then have any and all info cleared prior to that time? I know in the past if ow contacted H he would erase so I would not get upset. But, because his mind wanders quite easily and he easily gets off track with other stuff, occassionally he would forget. These are the times when i'm able to see that she/he are still in contact.
Right now I'm at the struggling with forgiveness phase of my life. I started going to church often during the week back in October and it has brought me great peace. But, being the well trained Catholic that I am, if I don't go a few times during the week I feel like I'll get the punishment of her calling again. This guilt thing really takes over your mind. Anyway, I have to learn to forgive. It's easier to forgive him because I love him and need to in order to live with him forever. But, her? That's not happening. I pray for peace every day. I need peace of mind...to be freed from her grasp. Beleive it or not, she still controls me every day and that makes me resentful. She probably does not even know she controls me, but she does. So, along with peace, I pray for her to meet a nice man from Alaska and move very, very far away! To any of you married ladies in Alaska...I'll let you know in plenty of time so you can stow away your husbands!

Fiori,

Your devil's advocate question is the BIGGEST problem for me. I know that my H is more than savvy enough to cover his tracks. Heck, he did it for an entire YEAR! So I feel like barring my installing software to track his stuff, he will hide what he wants to.

Is there any way to track text messages yet? My H deletes them as he gets/writes them so I would never know. And if we set a time, my worry is that he would delete the unfavorable ones and leave the rest so that it looked good.

YUCK! I think our best line of defense is to watch the wayward behavior of our Hs...if they start to look/feel weird, THEN we worry that something is up. Otherwise, we live our entire life wondering whether or not we are being lied to again.

HTM

Yeah...what both of you said hits home for me. And that's probably why I'm not there yet on the "set time" because we don't have enough time under our belt for me to trust that he wouldn't hide. And my H deletes and hides as well and sometimes slips up and that's when I end up finding out.

I have online access to his cell phone bill and I can see "unbilled" items. It doesn't show me the words that are used in the texts, but it shows me the phone number and the time. We have T-Mobile. It will show that until the billing period ends and then they summarize into one lump sum and I cannot see who the phone numbers are, just a total count of incoming and outgoing.

This last "acting out" episode, I listened to a VM because he left his phone in the kitchen over night and it was there when I was leaving for work. He was still sleeping. I had periodically listened to VM's and looked for phone numbers anyway but I had really slacked off and I had a gut feeling that I needed to listen to it. Hate that! Sure enough, there was a message with her half retarded sounding (I know that's awful to say) voice on there. And of course because we've been at this for awhile, he knew the drill, this time he told me everything, sent the NC text, copied me on it, left it on his phone so that I could "verify".

I'm all for checking, that's my bottom line. And based on my own bad experience, I think that checking needs to remain in effect indefinitely.

Precisely! All I have to go on now is his word (???) and the way he treats me. As of late, he's been treating me like the old days, but I'm so afraid to trust myself any more. I feel so stupid for being duped as long as I was. Well, I suppose if I really disect things, I wasn't duped at all....I knew what was going on very early on. I suppose he was the one being duped, but it was by himself. He had himself convinced that he could handle things and then it all got out of control.
So, let's add a new fuel to the fire...he's going out of town on business Monday-Thursday of next week. This is a trip he's gone on for several years and I know it's just the managers (four guys), but I'm still very worried. My concern at this point is her. I am afraid she will know he's out of town and realize that his 'babysitter' is not there and attempt to make a call. or two or three. He's shown me in the past that his resolve is absolutely non existent, so I'm a bit worried. I made a list today of my concerns and he and I will chat about them later tonight. I need him to really hear me this time and respect my fears. I know he's trying hard to be tolerant but I simply don't feel that he's as remorseful as I think he should be. I've heard other waywards say that they would do ANYTHING their spouse asked of them to make them feel safe. I do not feel that is the case. I think I'll go add that to my list. Also, the fact that I'm not sure that I think he sees losing me as a reason for honesty. This is soooo weird for me because before all of this happened I KNEW he was the most decent and special man I'd ever met. I knew I could always count on him and that he'd never intentionally let me down. I wish I knew that again.

I completely understand all that you said, could even see myself saying the same things.

We looked at the five love languages website together and on there is a quick survey for what kind of love language you like, but at the bottom, it had the language of apology. I learned that I am the kind of person that needs a "repentant" type of apology. I need to not just hear the words, but to hear "this will never happen again".

My H says that just because I can't see his remorse does not mean that it's not there. He does better "writing" to me where he can express some deep things that he may never put into verbal words. In those words I hear the repentant one and it soothes me.

Do you have access to his cell phone records online? Can you look to see his current calls and text message phone numbers? This would "confirm" if she does call or text him. Would that help?

I could always simply look for the calls. But, as for texting, this is not an issue because his cell phone is issued by work and texting is banned. So, I'm grateful for that, as I see that texting is a biiiigggg problem with alot of folks on here.

Has your H been involved in more than two EA's? This is our first and seemingly our last. It's tiresome having to go through this after 17 years of marriage. I had so much faith in what the two of us had. I'd be lying if I told you I was 100% happy with H. He's not romantic and he's devoured by his job & responsibility. I wish I felt that he 'cherished' me. He hates when I use that word. Now, the only way to explain it to him is to say "I wish I meant so much to him that he was willing to risk his marriage to protect and be with me." IT's such a slap in the face that he was willingly engaging in actions that were toxic and harmful to our family. I don't think I'll ever be able to reconcile that in my mind. I have some wishes where he's concerned, but I'd never, ever consider stepping over the line. I remember many years ago when my son's b-ball coach used to flirt shamelessly with me. Then, I started to notice him driving up our street. I freaked me out. So, rather than engage him, I kept a lower profile and told H. He was a real turd about it. He actually told me that I was probably imagining it because married men did not flirt with married women... He actually even chuckled a little at my being so gullable. Hmmmm...where did that get him? This is why so much of what he did the last year was totally out of character. I don't even know who I've been living with any more. But, I do see the old H emerging. They say it's impossible while they still work in the same company, but right now there is nothing I can do. I have been out of the work force so long now so I know any job I could get would not support us if he took a pay cut. We'll see. Time can be both a friend and an enemy. Thanks for talking with me...it's very helpful

Short answer - yes.

Mine is a long story...gets me back to MB about once a year. Many things have changed in the last month though so I see alot of light at the end of the tunnel.



Very much so!!

Keep your healthy guard up. It's good that he is looking for another job.

You are welcome!

Last night I cried for the first time in many months. I sort of felt this one brewing...but it finally arrived. First, I know a new trigger -- The Notebook. I was watching the movie and it threw me over the edge. And, earlier in the day we had a party for my son. It was a mix of my family, H's family and a few 16yr. old boys in the mix. It was a very fun day. But, I looked around and thought 'wow, if H had left to be with OW, this day would not be possible.' You know, it bothers me that H doesn't give these things any thought. How can you just simply move on and mend so quickly? He seems oblivious, sometimes, to the ripple effect of what he did. And, also my mother started talking to me about how I'm not the same. My spirit is gone and my bubbly personality seems to have been put on hold. Hmmm...doesn't that happen when the rug gets pulled out from under you? Anyway, it was a tough night and I look like a freight train ran into my face now. Crying really takes a toll! So, we start a new day. And, H leaves tomorrow for NC to a conference for work. He'll be back Wednesday but I'm not impressed. Not because I think he'll cheat, but because I realize the dumpy red-head will know he's alone and may attempt contact. I wonder if I'm making more of this than is real and she's actually moved on too? Does that happen with an EA? It's just that she was sooooo 'in your face' about wanting him and she made no efforts to remove herself from the party even after she was told to do so many times. So, why now? Why is she listening now? It seems out of character given her bold attitude for so long. WEll, that's one thing I truely cannot control so I'm going to have to let it go. Til tomorrow..

I'm here for you. I'll talk you through the next few days. You'll make it.

I'm sure OW has dropped it. She sees how committed your H is to you and how committed you are to H. She'd be crazy to keep trying.

Hang in there.

HTM

PS. Lots of triggers for me this weekend on my trip with our AFS student to Las Vegas. Whew...didn't know if I would survive and definitely know that H will not be allowed to go there any time soon!

I went to bed last night after H packed his bag for his trip. I wrote a note and tucked it in his shorts. I never woke again until 6am and he was still here! Not good, his flight was at 8 and he needed to be at the airport by 7. So, I practically shoved him out of bed and he said 'no problem...i've decided not to go. I left a messege that I was sick. I knew it was a problem for you and I really wasn't into it." Well, ok, then! So, he worked from home today and he'll go back to regular work tomorrow. What does this mean? Too scared to be hopeful, but secretly I am.

I'm sorry your weekend was tough. At least you won't have to go back there any time soon! Did your 'daughter' go back yet?

WOW! Healthy skepticism......but wow!

AWESOME! Your H is definitely making a lot of points with me. I hope you are SHOWERING him with praise for his decision! He needs to know that it was great for him to make the decision not to go and that it protects your marriage. He's starting to make decisions with YOU in mind. That's wonderful.

My "daughter" goes home on the 30th. She had a great time in Vegas. It was a completely new experience for me because it was all about sightseeing...no gambling, no drinking...LOTS of walking. We saw Folies Bergere (famous showgirl show) and walked through all the hotels except the one H met OW at (just couldn't do it). We even went to Freemont Street where there is an archway tv that you walk under the length of a city block.

HTM