Hi,

I thought I would post another thread while I wait for some more advice on my Plan B letter.

I picked my boys up the other day to take them to karate and they told me that OM had stayed at my WW house. I asked them how they felt and they said sad and I asked them if they had told their mother how they felt and they said she just goes quiet. I told them I'm there for them and they only have to call if they want to and that I was proud of them and that I knew it wasn't easy for them, but they had each other for support and that I love them very much and miss them dearly when they are away.

Roll on last night when I call and they tell me again that he stayed and that they weren't happy. They get up for school and he is still in bed. They both said they want to talk more and would prefer to talk when they come home. I made a point of not asking them whether OM had been to the house and waited on them telling me which is what they have done as I didn't want to force my beliefs on them, but at the same time won't say that what their mother is doing is right.

These forums are great for the BS for the FWS, but what about our children? How do we advise them?
What is this doing to my boys and how on earth do I protect them?

I would love to hear from anyone on this especially any FWS.

Regards
HAF

IMO, you should take your children to see a counselor. I would also strongly suggest getting each of them a notebook to journal in and perhaps even some new colored pencils or markers. Tell them it is for their eyes only and you will not read it unless they want to show you something. Tell them if they don't want to write, draw pictures of how they are feeling.

You don't want them internalizing this. It's great they are talking to you, but a journal will allow them to let things out they don't feel they can tell you or are afraid to.

I'm a FWS, but never in the situation you are so I really don't have any advice from that standpoint. I just know how children can internalize things and how unhealthy it is.

Edited to add: Sorry I realize I'm not answering your questions, I just thought this was important information for you to ponder.

LC

Do you have a custody arrangement?

Listen, your kids can have an attorney of their own and that lawyer would represent them and their interests.

She is clearly not thinking of them.

Get them into therapy as well.

I know that I would have eventually rebelled as a child and probably taken a dump in his shoes while he slept. Or I would have thrown food on him, yelled at him, or acted out in some way to his presence and the absence of my father. At least at that age I would have.

That would have sent a message that I wasn't happy with the situation.

Sorry you're going through this. Put THEM above all in your life. Let her put other men first in her life. You put your boys first in yours. Date casually, but don't force them to accept a new woman as well.

Let them know you are still their dad no matter what and will always be there for them.

Thanks for your responses.

I have already spoke to them about talking to Steve Harley and will email his office to ask if he is able to talk to children.

I pray to God I can get them throw this and anyone with any other advice would be really appreciated.

Regards
HAF

I don't think you should be too ambivalent about expressing your belief that what she is doing is wrong. They KNOW it is wrong, and I bet it is very difficult for them to get thier heads around the idea that thier mother, who they love and rely on to protect them, is doing something wrong. I think you need to let them know that you believe thier mother is making mistakes and that you disagree with her behavior and that they are correct in disagreeing with it as well.

I think counseling for your kids is a very good idea.

A few questions first:

Do you have a legal separation?
Do you have a custody agreement through the courts or through the legal sep?

If you do not have the above, get them. In a legal sep you CAN keep the boys from OM. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING THEY TELL YOU. I documented everything and used it against my ex in court. And it worked.

I don't know if Steve would be the best for the kids. I think they need a weekly face to face visit with a child counselor. One that will do kid friendly therapy through games and art and stories. My kids went to one that did all of that. They would do puppet shows and the such. Also, check with their school. They usually have a counselor for kids. Mine saw the school one and another one outside of school.

Protect your children no matter what. Tell them that what mommy is doing is not right. Kids need the truth or they are going to grow up thinking what she is doing is AOK. It is not! Mine know the complete truth. They see what it has done to us and I pray that they learn from it and don't grow up to do the same things.

mlhb

Hi HAF, I am not sure what you mean when you don't want to "force your beliefs on them," but as thier PARENT it is YOUR JOB to teach them right from wrong. It is your job to give them MORAL GUIDANCE, lest they grow up morally confused at best, or grow up to be little liars and cheaters due to your dereliction of duty. Being SILENT is not going to help them, it will HURT THEM and cause more confusion.

Your wife is teaching them that adultery is ACCEPTABLE and unless you step up to the plate and do your job, they will grow up believing this.

I suspect they are horribly confused right now because of your silence. Children instinctly know right from wrong, but when that is not validated by ADULTS, they conclude THAT THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM. Your boys, no doubt, believe they must be STUPID and are being taught to DOUBT their instincts about right and wrong, since apparently, you endorse this sleazy, immoral set up. Your silence indicates ENDORSEMENT.

So, the first thing that needs to happen is that you need to STOP shirking your parental duty and sit down and give your boys some MUCH NEEDED moral guidance. The only guidance they are currently getting is IMMORAL guidance from your wayward wife.

You are ALL they have right now, and if you don't talk to them and guide them, they will naturally be lost.

Secondly, why are these kids being exposed to this sleazy affair? Has a JUDGE COURT ORDERED you to make those kids sleep in the same house with her affair partner? Has a sheriff with a big gun FORCED you into this sacrificing your kids to this affair??

If not, then this needs to stop TODAY. I would start by calling her up and telling her how morally confusing it is for the kids to be exposed to her affair and it NEEDS TO STOP.

Affairees use the kids like this in an attempt to normalize their affair. It gives a false air respectibility to a very disrespectful, sleazy situation. You should not allow those kids to be used for this purpose. IT IS HARMING THEM!

Not to mention the fact that this is how little kids end up MOLESTED.

If she will not agree to stop exposing the kids to her sleazy affair partner, then I would get a damn good lawyer and get thee before a judge to see if you can legally prevent her from harming your kids like this.

h&f, you are ALL your kids have right now. Their mother is lost in sin and selfishness and does not have their best interest at heart. It is up you, and only you, to protect those kids.

Please step up to the plate and do your duty as their father.

Counseling is great, but even counseling cannot compensate for a lack of PARENTAL GUIDANCE. If they don't get any parental guidance, you can rest assured they will need LOTS of counseling when they grow up so morally confused they don't know right from wrong and have been trained to IGNORE their instincts.

It is a horrible thing to grow up in a world WHERE NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

And nothing makes SENSE when your parent sits SILENT in the face of evil. It is a horrible, confusing feeling.

Hi,

Thanks again for your responses, especially Mel.

I think you need to loosen your grip on that 2x4 your holding.

Ok legal separation is still being agreed and the time I have with the boys has been agreed for sometime now and that was agreed through mediation.

I have told my WW numerous times that OM should have nothing to do with them, but I can't get that agreed in the separation agreement. The courts are different in the UK and as children they aren't given any chance to be heard. My solicitor has already told me that I can't keep him away from the boys if my WW chooses for him to be there. If they had stayed in the house and I had of moved they would have been exposed here and that was not going to happen which is why I moved back in and forced the sale of the house. My solicitors have told me I can't involve the children and it will be seen as damaging should we end up in court. I can't afford to loose seeing my kids and as you have put it I'm the only stable thing in their lives.

She has exposed OM to them before and they kicked off only for her to keep him there for another day. When I heard about it I told her she needs to put them first and letting OM stay another night after they kicked off is not acceptable. This kept him away for about a month and then it happened again. I have not spoken to my WW and will not speak to her as I'm in Plan B, regardless of the fact I still haven't had sent my Plan B letter. I had wrote to her some time ago but I hadn't really done a Plan A. And thanks to you Mel I moved back home and that was almost 12 months ago. So she is fully aware of how this is effecting me. Between then and now we have lived separately spending time away from one another. I work shifts so when I'm off they are with me and when I'm at work they are with her. From July until November I lived between my house and my brothers, which I had to agree at mediation. When nothing changed I moved home after taking the boys on holiday to Florida with HER family and forced her out.

I have told the children the truth and they know what their mother is doing is wrong, but she is still their mother wayward or not and see is entitled to see them. She tells them that OM is part of her life and she wants OM to be part of theirs, but they don't. I have told them that their mother will try to get them to like him so that what she is doing is ok. She has told them he is a good person, but I've told them that a person who breaks up their home isn't good and only thinks about himself, which they fully understand. What I'm trying to say is that these kids are still very young and as a BS I am worried I will push my anger on to them and get them to choose. Children of there age can't comprehend what is happening. They often repeat what I've said to them back to their mother. She says "that has come from your father". To which my youngest said, "Yes, but he's right"

I've spoken to Ellie at Marriage Builders and she is going to speak to Steve to see if we can come up with something. I know its not ideal and yes having someone they can see in the UK would be great, but I want some consistence with what is happening, which is why I will pay for Steve to talk to them if he can.

regards
HAF

h&f, I do not think you should "push anger" on the kids, but rather PUSH TRUTH. They need to be told that adultery is IMMORAL and it needs to be explained to them that this man broke up their family. They need to be told that sleeping together, out of wedlock, is immoral. If you are doing that, then I apologize for misunderstanding you, but if you are standing SILENT and not guiding them with TRUTH, then that needs to change. When you said you didn't want to push your beliefs on them, it gave the impression you were sitting silently.

They SHOULD be repeating this stuff back to their mother. They SHOULD be telling her how disgusting adultery is and how much they don't like OM. A wayward needs to hear this stuff.

Have you clearly told them that adultery and fornication is IMMORAL and that what their mother is doing is very WRONG? That is my concern.

As someone who was raised in a similar IMMORAL environment, with one wayward parent and the other silent, I can tell you from personal experience how DAMAGING it is when children are not taught right from wrong.

Have you TRIED to prevent her LEGALLY from exposing the kids to her affair? Have you ASKED your lawyer to help you? Its one thing to be amicable in mediation [a big HARLEY no-no in the first place] but its quite another when its done at the expense of your childrens well being.

I am glad you moved back home, h&f, i remember you now.

All I can say is that you should go down fighting.

Do they assign lawyers to represent the children in the UK?

The kids can inform the lawyer and the lawyer can make a recommendation to the court to honor their feelings.

Is there something which forces you to let the kids go to her place?

If there isn't, then the kids stay in their home. She can see them in your home where she belongs.

Otherwise, let her go alone to infidel hotel and don't let her expose the children to this immorality.

Get them into counseling. Your counselor will put your children's needs above yours and your wife's. Your counselor can testify to the damage that is being caused to the children with this kind of exposure.

Most importantly, be honest with your children. They need someone to count on. They have a right to know why their family is falling apart. They certainly deserve to have at least one parent willing to tell them that adultry is wrong.

They feel it in their gut, and they are looking for someone to reassure them that their gut feeling is right on.

Something like: "I love mommy. We are a family and she belongs here with us. What she is doing is wrong. I want us to be a family again and will do whatever I can to make that happen. It's what's best for all of us."

If you are a Christian, you have the opportunity to teach great lessons about temptation, sin, evil, and forgiveness, repentance, and reconciliation.

I'm in Canada though I don't know exactly how similar our legal system is to yours, I can say it sucks here as well. The OWH in my sitch was completely screwed over by his WW. She took their DD with them and moved in with my WstbxH. She has done everything possible to force WstbxH onto her DD to the extend that DD was starting to show serious signs of problems. OWH arranged to have her see a counsellor who said she needed serious therapy. Instead of being concerned about her DD, OW/WW and WstbxH secretly bought a house in another city and moved away before OWH could get the case to court. By the time he found out,it was 2 days before they moved. He got an emergency hearing the day after they moved but by then, depsite psyologist reports that DD wasn't adjusting well, the judge said it was too late. Most people think this was not the typical outcome but it's about as bad as it can get. I'd caution you to move quickly with the legalities to protect them.

And definitely, let them know that what your WW is doing is morally wrong. Tell them it's ok to love her because she's their mom, and still not be happy or approve of what she's done.

Thanks again for your replies.

I've just come off a night shift and its 6:30am here and last night was a nightmare. I spoke to the boys as I do everyday they are away and found out that OM has stayed at their mothers house 4 days in a row. I told my eldest on Wednesday when I spoke that if he came to the house then he could tell his mother he didn't want to be there and that I would pick him up and they could stay with me as I wasn't due into work until last night. When I asked him why we didn't say anything he said "she will only say no". I said have you told your mother how you feel and he said no as she never listens to him. I told him he must tell her even though she doesn't listen. When I spoke to my youngest he said he wanted to be with me. It turns out she made them sit down and have dinner altogether and she went to the shops and left them with him.

I phoned my SIL and BIL and asked them what my WW was playing at and that the children were left with him. They knew nothing about it and both said when they try to say something she tells them she is an adult but they would try and talk to her. I've asked them both not to say anything until the boys are back with me as it wasn't fair putting them in a situation they didn't want to be in.

I have told the boys to stay out of his way and not to talk to him if they feel uncomfortable.

After I've had some sleep I will contact my solicitor and see if there is anything I can do.

I'll keep you all posted, but again if there are any FWS out there that have done what my WW is doing please give some advice.

Regards
HAF

Hi there
I did post my experience in this situation over on Kag's thread the other day.In short,my boys are 15 and 18 notably older then yours..my 18 is handling things ok but my 15 boy is not.This is what I did..they both went to a child pyschologist,DS15 went for numerous sessions as he had so much hurt and anger towards WH.The pyschologist relayed back to both of us what had happened at each session..often WH would be in tears cos of what he had caused but typically didn't stop behaviour.We are not a very religious family but DS15 asked me if what his dad was doing was a sin and I said yes..He replied "then how can I pray for dad,he has to ask God for forgiveness"I was so shocked I just wanted to cry.I told him God loves everyone even though we sin and that he must still pray for his dad.
Kids are very receptive and aware of whats happening around them.My opinion is don't get on your moral high horse with them..yes tell them its wrong but remember they love their mom so don't be to judgemental..be gentle with their emotions..they are already upset and trying to come to terms with whats happened to their family.

please read my post on Kags thread and see how my boys sorted out their own emotions and came to their own conclusions over time.
They will never truely accept OM don't worry...be their ROCK they need your stability and love so they know your home is where they will be secure and have STABILITY.