Thanks everybody for your replies. My head is spinning with all the advice. It is so difficult not to confront her with this information.
I spoke to the MC and he said I need to confront her. I am so torn.
I do feel like I don't have enough information to expose her. I have contacted a PI service and am going to try my best to hold out confronting her.
On my way home I asked her if the boys were ready for baseball. She said they don't want to go and I overheard her say to one of them that the OM is coming. I waited a few minutes and called her back and said we should take the day off from baseball and just go out to dinner. I could tell she was little conscerned. I called my bestfriend to see if he and wife would come with us and they did. She asked if the OM could come. I said no. During dinner I asked her if she was upset that the OM didn't come. She said no. I asked how he was doing and she said he was going on a date soon. I said "good, is he excited". She said a little. I asked her if she was going out tonight and she acted like she was thinking about it. I said "why don't you stay home with me tonight". She agreed. I am laying with the kids until they go to sleep. She said she was going to work out. I came in there earlier and I think she had the book about marriage separation. Not sure though. My stomach is in knots. I hope tomorrow I get called by he PI and they can maybe follow her this weekend. Well I am going to go act happy with her and see what she is up to. Thanks for everybody's advice. I have read every reply but it is overwhelming right now. Oh, I started doing the journal again. I started one after the basketball tournament.

Well I made it through the night without confronting her. We did talk. I told her that it hurts me when she goes out. I said that I didn't care who she goes out with but that she is spending time away from me and I want her to be with me. I also took a look at her cell phone and she erases all messages in her inbox and sent box. I'm not sure if she knows I know but I wouldn't be surprised if she suspects it. Not sure if she has been clearing here txts for months. I had a chance to look at her laptop for a little bit. Not too much in the history but some documents were there. I tried to copy her "my documents" folder to another computer but it failed. I will get a thumb drive today and try to copy stuff to it. I did read one of her letters. It was from her step sister. I guess SS thinks that she is ignoring her. It was a bunch of BS but the thing that surprised me is that she said that she doesn't consider my best friend's wife to be a friend. Just somebody she works with. My wife is off her rocker. BF's wife would do anything for her and even moved to our neighborhood so the kids could grow up together. I cannot believe this is happening. I'm wondering if the MC is going to say something about me knowing about the txting. She goes to him today. She mentioned last night that we should go the MC together next week. The MC is going to be disappointed that I did not confront her as he asked. I will see him Thursday. How should I deal with the MC? His beliefs are different than Dr. Harvey but I can't quit going to him. Well I am gonna try to find a lawyer now. Thanks for all your replies. Oh, one other thing. I said there may be a day when I ask are going out with your friends more important than our marriage? She said don't make me make that decision. I played it off that I don't think I ever will but I may feel that way some day.

Hi familyman... Hope you're doing ok right now...


If you look at your old thread, JustLearning made a second reply to you. He makes a case for going with what you know right now, and using that to confront her. Personally, I still think you might want to get more info first, but be sure to read what he has to say.


How did she respond to this? Was she dismissive? Did she show any concern?


She might have been doing this for a long time, just as a preventive measure.


Another item that supports the idea she is having an A. People in affairs often cut ties with old friends.


I would think he should keep what you say to him confidential...


I'd be suspicious of that - I wonder if she wanted to use that time, in the presence of the counselor, to say that things aren't working and that she wants a seperation, or something like that.


Her response to this question is very revealing. If her priorities were straight, than OF COURSE her marriage would be more important than her friends.

My advice to you right now is to try to control yourself for the time being while gathering more information on what she is up to. However... you are under a lot of stress right now and it is very hard under these circumstances to stay cool. If you feel you need to confront her, or that you can't go on any longer without doing so, than as JustLearning points out, you have a lot of evidence already - her going out at all hours is in itself enough to support that she is having an EA.

Any chance you can call Steve Harley?

CC

I am a wreck. So many things swimming in my head right now. Knot in my stomach. I told her last night that there was talk of layoffs at work and I was very concerned about it. Said that in case I visibly looked nervous.

quote 1
I did read that thread from JustLearning. The thing with me is I like to have alot of information before I make a decision. Since I just learned about the communication with the other OM I would like to get more information. If I can't hold off then I will use the txts.

quote 2
She seemed a little concerned and understanding. I get the feeling that it will just be a little harder next time but she won't stop going out or being with him.

quote 3.
I hope she has been deleting them for awhile instead of starting last night.

quote 4.
I can't believe she said that. She also said it has gotten worse since they had their child. What, if you family doesn't get her full attention then she is not your friend. W is crazy

quote 5.
Confidential but maybe try to get her to talk about it.

quote 6.
could be

quote 7.
That hurt. How could she give up what she has(beautiful family, loving husband, half a million dollar house, and what she would do to the kids)for some kid with a waiter job. Crazy to me. I can't be that bad.

One thing that she can get me for with divorce is my drinking. I drink on the weekends. Most of the time too much to drive. When she goes out I will drink at home. The kids are home with me sleeping. She could be building a case on that for divorce.

I would like to talk to Steve Harvey but I need to figure out how to use my friend's money to do that.

I can understand how you must feel right now. I felt that way for a very brief time when I found out my wife wanted a divorce. Just remember that there are a ton of people here who have been in your shoes and who are willing to help you.


I'm the same way. I prefer to have all the info before making my move, too. With me, I waited about a week before confronting my wife about her relationship with ex-bf. In my case, though, my change of behavior dramatically improved our situation in a short period of time, so when I confronted her, I already was pretty sure that she hadn't had/wasn't in an A.

When you do confront your wife... you don't have to tell her how you got your info. Don't tell her how you got your info. You'll know it, and she knows it, don't get sucked into a game of "prove it".


If she is not having an A, than she needs to realize that her fun is at the expense of your feelings. Her fun is causing great problems in the marriage. If she is not emotionally entangled with this OM, she might pull back from that relationship to protect her marriage.

Unfortunately, given her response to your question, it is very likely she is in an A.


You've brought up the possibility of an affair with her before, right? And you've been complaining about her nights out. You're going to marriage counseling. Any of these would probably have prompted her to start deleting that info. Her starting an A would, in and of itself, prompt her to delete that info. Odds are very good it wasn't just last night.


Affairs do strange things to people. We call it "the fog" here, and the Harleys liken it to an addiction - and recent studies show there are neurochemical reactions associated with affairs.

Affairs turn people into liars and justifiers, and gives them a sense of entitlement. Cutting ties with old friends is common.


The affair - if it is one - is not about you. It's about her, and her choices. Waywards don't think clearly, and don't think about the consequences... they just think about the "fun", the here-and-now.


Well, that would be a weak case, because if she is having an A, than every time she goes out she is abandoning her kids. If she is leaving them in the care of an "alcohol abuser" (as you think she might try to paint you), in order to go out on dates with an OM - what does that make her?

I'd recommend, though, that you cut back on the drinking. Drinking alone is not a good idea, and won't help you think clearly right now.


Your friend offered to help you pay for it? If so, I'd call the MB counseling center for an appointment right now - you can ask them how to make the arrangements. It might take time to schedule you, so making the call sooner rather than later would probably be a good idea.

Hang in there buddy. It will be rough, but you can do this.

Well I talked to a PI. It is not as expensive as I thought. They recommended surveillance of her apartment and of a couple of times that they go out. I will probably only use him if after I confront her things stay the same. He said he is going to send over some recommended attorneys to me as well. My wife went to MC today and said it went very well and she wants to talk to me about it. She has never said that before. Still debating to call Steve Harvey. After my counsel session tomorrow I will make a decision on what to do.

Should be interesting to see what she wants to talk about...

If she says anything about a trial separation... that would be a problem. Almost every time, the real purpose of the separation is to enable the WS to continue the affair unhindered.

Hopefully she'll have something more positive to talk about.

What is your plan now? You were, I thought, considering using the PI to gather more evidence before confronting her... now it sounds like you are considering confronting her before using a PI. Are you planning to confront her with what you now know?

How are you holding up? Better than this morning?

I just spoke to her and she told a couple things about the session. Regarding the apartment she has, her father owns businesses too and they always worked there. It was very hectic. Then she would go to her moms during the weekend and it was very calm. She liked the time by herself there to get away from the businesses. She says she is more able to love me if she has the apartment.
The other thing is that after the parents split their rooms were cleared from their home and they had to go live with their mom. The step sisters move in. There was no discussion about. There stuff was just gone. They never got to talk about their feelings with anyone. She and the counselor think this is why she has a hard talking about her feelings with me.

Doesn't sound right to me. I can't believe he is condoning this behavior. Can't wait to go talk to him tomorrow.

This doesn't sound right at all. More able to love you if she has her own apartment and spends time away from you? That is classic WW spin. It doesn't make any logical sense.

Much more likely that she wants the apartment so that she can have a nice place to meet with her OM.


Well, see what he says. Your wife may be distorting what he said to her, or even lying about what he said to her. You are not at sessions together, so how would you know what he said?

On the other hand, it sounds like this MC has been condoning her partying all along, which is why I said I thought he sounded like a dud.

I'd recommend calling Harley right away - they may have someone call you back to schedule a time. You can always cancel if your session tomorrow with MC goes well. I'd also recommend having the PI on line sooner rather than later. You want to know for certain what you're dealing with.

What do you think?

I think I screwed it up. On my way home from tennis she asked if she could go to a movie with OM and somebody else(didn't catch the name). I was speechless and mumbled OK. She said you went to tennis and I didn't make you feel bad and you are making me feel bad. I said ok a little louder. She hung up on me.
When I got home I said I didn't mind her going but I needed to talk to her before she goes. I put the kids to bed and met her in the kitchen. She asked what I had to talk about. I said "give me a minute I need to get this right". I then told her I loved her, would do anything for her but I am hurting. I told her that I wanted her to quit going behind my back and contacting people in the middle of the night. She asked "what do you mean". I said you have been contacting people thousands of times in the last few months and all night until after 4am. She mentioned that she talks to her girlfriend. I told her I knew who she was contacting and I want her to stop. She kept asking what do you mean communication and I said with electronic devices. She then knew what I was talking about. I said you know what I am talking about and I want you to stop now. She left into her room. I followed her and asked if she understood what I was asking. She said I hear you. I then told her I loved her and did she want to talk about it. She said I need some time to think it over. She was crying and visibly shaken. I went to stop the kids from yelling in the their beds. She left without a hug or kiss.
After she left she txt me and said that she feels 10 and she is being scolded by her dad. I txt back and said I am here for her to talk to now and I was sorry she felt she had to talk to someone else. She txt me back with "I don't know how to talk to you". I txt her back with "We will work at it until we figure it out. We owe it to our family." She txt back with"I will give it my all". I txt back with "I will too. wake me if I'm not awake from massive head and stomach ache if you want to talk. I love you more than anything." She txt back with "Ok. Love you too"

How did I do? I think I should have told her not to contact him at all but I couldn't bear it anymore.

I think you did fine. You are under TREMENDOUS emotional stress. And this isn't the defining moment. You can change your mind and say more tomorrow, or the next day. You don't only get this one chance to set your boundaries.

I actually think that you would be smart to PLAN a time with her to sit down with you and talk. That way she won't be immediately on the defensive and you can come into it with some thoughts in mind. I found that writing things down helped me with some of the earliest talks with H, because I was SO EMOTIONALLY SPUN that I couldn't keep my thoughts straight.

Did she leave to meet OM for the movie? If so, I would wait up for her. You may not want to talk any more with her tonight, but showing her that you are still here might be a good thing.

I am CERTAINLY NOT an expert, but those are my thoughts.

Thanks for the reply.
I have already mentioned that I would like to her that I would like to meet with MC together next week. I am going to try to wait up for her if she even comes home. Crossing fingers. She did go to the movie I guess. She told me when the movie started and the txt stopped about that time. I would hope that she will not remember much of the movie. I am exhausted from the day. My car broke down last week and it is still not fixed and then my other car wouldn't start for about 30 min after I got gas on my way home to see my family. My wife did take care of me though.

I think you did well. The only thing I would have added is something along these lines, "If you want to go to the movies with OM, I cannot stop you. But what you are doing is not ok with me and your continued contact with him is disrespectful to me and our marriage."

Otherwise, I think you did a pretty good job fighting through her attempts to mislead you.

I think you did great, too.
I think she knows she's busted... whether emotional or physical. I accused my hubby of treating me like a kid, too. Like I was being scolded but it was b/c I knew I was guilty. Get her face to face to talk. Much harder to lie to your face than through txts, emails and phone calls... press on.
I'm praying for your marriage.
Oneflesh

You've been under enormous stress. It would be great if you could be the iceman, keeping cool about everything until you have all the info, but that usually isn't possible under the circumstances. So don't beat yourself up, you're doing fine.

She needs to know that her actions are hurting you. As others have said, they are disrespectful to the marriage. Her telling you she feels like she is ten years old is a lame attempt to make YOU feel guilty about CATCHING her - when SHE should feel guilty about CHEATING in the first place. You can see it for what it is, can't you? But you communicating your pain - that is real, that is undeniable, and that ought to be preying heavy on her mind right now.

I hope she doesn't remember any of the movie, either.

I'm not exactly a praying man, but I'll pray that she comes home tonight...

She did come home last night. We talked a bit. She is very angry. She says that the txts were just people telling her that they were home or checking up on her. I call BS. She said she is mad because of the way I told her. Said that I should have just asked her about the communication instead of just making demands. I told her I did it the only way I know how. Right or wrong. I tried to kiss her last night and this morning and she pulled away. I don't understand how she can hurt me like this. I was uncontrollably emotional this morning on the way to work. I called the MC to maybe move up my appointment. Just got the PI contract this morning. It is more expensive that I had thought. Not sure if I going to do it yet.

When I found out my wife wanted a divorce, I did so by snooping on her email. This is when I found out about the inappropriate relationship with the ex-boyfriend.

After we "reconnected", mainly by my change of heart and elimination of Love Busters, she asked me what had prompted my changes. I was torn - on the one hand, I wanted very much to be "Radically Honest" (and dishonesty had been a problem for me before). On the other hand, things were going well between us and I didn't want to "rock the boat".

I told her about snooping on her emails, expecting her to be furious with me. She wasn't. She wasn't angry at all - and she told me that if she'd had anything to hide, she would have used a different password.

That is the kind of response you expect if nothing is going on. People with nothing to hide... hide nothing.

Your wife's response is classic Wayward Wife. She is angry at YOU for checking up on her. This is typical, and it is one more indicator she is wayward. Doesn't matter... your marriage can survive her anger, but it won't survive an unchecked affair. Don't let her bamboozle you - you are the one who should be angry, considering she is constantly going out on dates with OM, staying out all night and texting him behind your back. She is trying to distract you, trying to throw you off the trail, trying to "gaslight" you - make you think YOU are the problem. Your irrational jealousy, she says, not her cavorting and partying. You can see that this is bogus, right? Don't let her bamboozle you.

Time to start planning... you said you saw a lawyer yesterday, right? If not, do so and get some good advice. Keep up your journal - include last night, when she left despite your confrontation about the voice texting. Think about calling Harley, he really is experienced at dealing with infidelity and working to save marriages. If the PI is too expensive, consider the digital voice recorder or having a friend drive by her apartment when she's out or something like that. There are lots of ways to snoop, other posters will have other ideas.

Breathe. This is incredibly stressful, of course you are going to be emotional. If you find yourself getting depressed to the point of being unable to work, you might consider taking anti-deperessants for awhile, you'd talk to your doctor about that.

Hang in there. And keep posting...

Your WW sounds alot (ALOT!) like mine. I too was caught in a limbo for quite some time seeking proof. I KNEW what was going on, but couldn't prove it. My WW was a skilled liar and excellent gaslighter and kept me off balance and indecisive for months.

I finally got proof of what was going on by contacting OM's girlfriend and together we were able to connect the dots. Once I had proof and was able to break through the lies, my situation started to change.

Do you have access to this apartment of hers? It would be very interesting to know what was in there. I'd suggest a digital recorder placed in the apartment as a pretty sure fire way of getting the proof you need.

Your WW is doing MANY things my WW did. Accusing me of being suspicious and controlling, telling me I reminded her of her dad, etc.

Its all manipulation, don't buy into it. Its all a tactic to get you to doubt yourself and back off so she can continue her A.

more later, just wanted to let you know that you are NOT crazy. What she's doing is pretty typical WS behavior. Keep seeking proof, do whatever you can to protect your kids and your rights regarding them. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but be prepared anyhow.

After reading what your wife has been doing and what she has been saying....you need to know what she is doing!!! Get the PI its worth the money if for anything just the peace of mind. She's having an affair with this guy either EA or both. If you don't kill it early it will take a life of its own and may be too late later. If its just an EA now don't wait to get a PI until after you find out its become a PA. Your wife's actions so far are real scary....it hard to believe its just innocent friendship. She continues to do this even when you express your concerns. Don't be afraid to stand your ground!!

Check out the link on gaslighting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

This is only one that explains it a bit.

My FWH was an EXPERT at this. It is part of the WS defense mechanism.

I think they do it for a couple of reasons...1) because it helps them to rationalize their own negative behavior by making it seem like you are the problem thus lessening their guilt and 2) because it makes it easier to control you if you are on the defensive.

You WW is manipulating you so that she can get what she wants. She IS acting like a child. And the other posters are right...if she has nothing to hide, she will not be defensive about you looking.

My FWH was EXTREMELY defensive about anything that might look like me trying to control him, keep tabs on him...he constantly made me feel as if I was CREATING the problem by being accusatory. Now that he has dome clean (of his own accord in my sich), he doesn't EVER question my snooping. He has given me COMPLETE access to everything. He ENCOURAGES me to look for my own peace of mind. He is no longer defensive because he has nothing to defend (i.e. the affair).

Don't let her convince you that YOU are the problem. SHE is the problem. Her behavior is UNBECOMING of a committed spouse. Until she is acting like she is committed, she must be treated as wayward. She has to EARN the right in a M to be trusted.