Azure mentioned the stages of the grieving process on another thread, giving me food for thought. I can see how I have passed through most of them, but am now stuck in depression. I was wondering how long it had taken for all of you to work through these stages, or if any of you have reached that fabled Valhalla, acceptance.<P>Here's my timeline:<P>disbelief = about 3 days, though it still recurs from time to time. Shock and disbelief sort of occurred simultaneously, though I began to believe it pretty fast when the evidence was starting me in the face (I caught him in the act)<P>shock = approx. two weeks, walking around with no sleep and without eating, then worrying about how I could save the marriage before it imploded...passing straight on into bargaining<P>bargaining = a month or so, where I begged him not to leave me and tried to be an ideal wife and stuff my feelings, passing, of course, right into anger -- the direct result of trying to be perfect, resenting it, and seeing little or no remorse from him<P>anger = oh, let's see...about 6 months. The anger started when I found out he had lied to me about the extent of his emotional affair. I veered from being bugged beyond belief over his lies and what he had done, to trying bargaining again, then getting mad that I had to do that. Because I kept hearing more sh*t from the OW, and disbelieved my H, I was still stuck in anger until about a month ago, when I decided to force myself to trust him again and know that SHE was lying, and that some of the problem was to do with me, so thought I better not let anger rule me anymore unless I wanted to kiss my marriage goodbye.<P>depression = started a month ago, no end in sight. Stuck in depression now, and seeing very little hope in the future. It seems like we have unsolveable problems and that more and more just keep coming up to deal with -- his low libido, our poor communication, my living in the past and still getting anger flashes and resentment, etc etc etc.<P>Anyone know how long it takes to pass from depression to acceptance? Just a ballpark figure would be nice

Cristalle,<BR>I'm pasting my initial post on Grief in marriage, you can search for the whole thread under my name.<P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Have you been so eager to put a distasteful experience behind you that you've not allowed yourself permission to grieve? Is anyone trying to pressure you to do so? No one can really sidestep the pain associated with severe disappointment....read on.<BR>By the way, Sorry this took so long. This is my personal favorite, because I think I spent months grieving without even knowing. After I read this book, I think I was able to work through this much more efficiently and when grief pops up now, I see it for what it is am much more accepting of it.<P>Betrayers and betrayed alike can benefit from grief management...so read and join in. (Oh this is step #7 from The Choosing to Forgive Workbook by Carter & Minirth. Steps 1-6 are hear somewhere if you search. Step 3 is labeled Legitimate Anger under wasstubborn. The rest are under my name.)<P>We have learned that forgiveness cannot proceed when you suppress anger. The same is true when suppressing or avoiding grief. Before you can truly release a person who has wronged you(or forgive yourself), you will need to admit the extent of your sadness.<P>Grief can be defined as the emotion of loss associated with the anguish or sorrow caused by a negative event. While we associate grief with death, grief is the natural reaction to any loss, like the loss of innocence in a relationship that should have been safe. It is experienced when dreams collapse or you are forced to admit difficult truths about someone you had trusted.<P>What "death" have you experienced in your relationship?<P>You need to be honest about your feelings. It is ok to live in sorrow and remorse for a while and it is ok for your feelings to be known.<P>This is different than clinging to grudges. Some of do not want to be bothered by examining uncomfortable emotions, so we choose to be rid of them simply by quickly declaring forgiveness or expecting our partner to "just get over it."<P>We need to forgive for the right reasons. Forgiveness for the purpose of hurrying past your loss is poor motivation because it involves denial (which is not a river in Egypt). It is ultimately dishonest. So just as you need permission to feel angry, you need to admit the depth of your sadness before you can find true forgiveness. Having the courage to face grief is strength, not weakness. Here are the 5 major elements of the grief process.<P>1. Be mournful about sin...which simply defined is the choice to live outside God's design for successful living. God's standards are for us to be loving, kind, humble, repectful, considerate, faithful, etc. Now what have you endured? Your pain is probibly the direct result of someone living opposed to God's design (maybe you were). When we label sin as sin, it is a description, not a judgment. We all have sinned and sin is ugly. Even Jesus mourned about sin.<P>2. Make Room for Loneliness. Most of us are afraid to be lonely...and sometimes we forgive quickly because we fear abandonment. Grief does involve a sense of solitude that you can not avoid, and realizing that can keep the emptiness from being overwhelming and give you feeling you will persevere. When you are in a position to forgive, it is because a major gap has opened betwen yourself and someone who has a significant role in your life. You want to feel connected, but now there is disconnection. Loneliness is an unfortunate, but inevitable, by-product of wrongdoing. Some suggestions to explore grief is to talk about it, spend time alone to feel sad and even cry, write about your feelings, and don't feel you have to be upbeat all the time in public.<P>3. Say Good-Bye to Some Ideals. Forgiveness may need us to set aside illisions and openly recognize unwanted reality. If you are accepting reality:<BR>*You will not speculate endlessly about what caused your wrong-doer to act as he or she did. (hmm...interesting thought...I think balance is need here)<P>*You will keep balance in your conversations about problems...talking about your pain when appropriate, but not obsessively.<P>*You will not yearn for a new set of idealistic conditions to pull you out of your pain. (Guilty as charged)<P>*You will drop phrases as "I just can't believe..."<P>*Even as you allow yourself to feel sad, you will also hold on to the belief that you can eventually move forward.<P>Do not say good-bye to goals or dreams, but factor in that life can and does disappoint.<P>4. Don't Be Ashamed to Hurt. The inability to forgive often exists in direct proportion to the tendency to hold on to unnecessary shame or embarrassment. Shame can keep you from being honest about your pain. Shame belongs only in incidents in which no repentance or remorse is registered. If you know yourself to be conscientious and growing, shame has no place in your life.<P>5. Commit to an End to Your Grief. Your grief will be intense at first, then you will still have recurrences of sadness, but they start to spread out. The inability to forgive is often driven by pessimism that life will never progress beyond the current grief. (Been there) Knowing that the pain will decrease and feeling like it will are two seperate matters. But be sure your emotions don't completely overwhelm the facts. In order to see an end to your grief try the following:<BR>*Accept encouragement<BR>*Talk with people with similar problems(we have this nailed)<BR>*Stay away from all-or-nothing statements. I'll never...He/she will always...<BR>*Keep in touch with routine matters<BR>*Don't push yourself to forgive right away, but assume you will do so when the timing is right. Your expectation of healing will help generate realistic hope.<P>Balance is required in the grieving process. On one hand, you go to do it. On the other, remember your loss does not represent the sum total of your life experiences.<P>Hope this helps<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi FHL<P>Thanks for posting that. However, I haven't suppressed my anger and kept it all in. And I'm not holding grudges either. I'm just tired of being sad, being in this last stage of depression that supposedly comes before acceptance. I think I'm done grieving, but I still feel hopeless about the future. It's like this whole thing has opened a Pandora's box of problems, which crop up day in day out. Let's just say I'm in need of an attitude adjustment. Or maybe I need anti-obsession pills to clear my mind of worries. But overall, I have little hope that things will get better. There's just too much to deal with and it hurts like hell.<P>But thanks for the post. I'll read it again when and if I feel better, to see if there's something I missed. Maybe I am still stuck in the grieving process, but it just FEELS like depression.<P>We'll see.

As a fellow sufferer of depression, i hear your pain. You sound like you honestly want to "get past" the depression, but it probably feels like your legs are made of lead, your heart is too heavy to smile, and even everyday chores are sometimes just too much to bear. That is clinical depression. Everyone feels depressed from time to time, but when it continues on for more than a month or so, with no end in sight, it's time to seek out some short term help. I don't know how you feel about anti-depressants, but they saved my life. I talked with my family doctor, let him know what i'd been dealing with, and he prescribed a mild anti-depressant, i took it for about 6 months. It gave me the boost i needed to break out of that horrible dark period, and to continue my healing process. If you don't like prescriptions, you might want to try the over-the-counter St. John's Wort. Some friends i know benifited from it as well. Please recognize when you've been dealt a hand that is too heavy for you to handle. Your marriage might depend upon it. Let me know what you think.

Cristalle...I hope you take the time to read the post about grief one more time. It really is not about suppressing anger or grudges, those things are just touched on.<P>It may give you a purpose for your sadness itself, or it may help you see this is a stage not to wallow in but to work through.<P>Basically what happened to you sucks. It is unfair and it it hurts more than others (I believe even the betrayer) can possibly imagine. Grief confirms that and lets you feel sad for your losses.<P>By endlessly talking to your H about this thing, you may be expecting him to take away your pain. Although he certainly could be more supportive by not being so defensive, he doesn't comprehend that. But Cristalle, he really can not take away your pain. As unfair as that is, it is the truth.<P>Instead of rehashing or trying to convince him of anything regarding the past, refocus and what you have learned in your reading and apply it to a happier future.<P>There is no way you can or he can make the past not have happened. Believe me it took months to get this obvious statement from my head to my heart. <P>And although you did not cause your pain, you are still accountable for how you get through the rest of your life. You are, not anyone else. No one can make you feel or not feel anything. As unfair as it is, I think most of the road to recovery the betrayed is solo. Your H can cooperate and support, but your own heart has to heal in its own time.<P>Lashing out does not help. Active grief may. Of course get all the help you can from a prescription. I didn't because my H is anti-drug...but I think it would have been much much easier.<P>The other advise is to think of your H on your own team rather than the opposition. Plan how you can get through this. Plan what he can do if you slip and let him have it, in my case, H agreed not to say a word, but just hug me. Of course, we hardly talked about it at all. But it stopped a pointless painful arguement enough times to make this strategy worth while.<P>And one day...or really over several days...for no apparent reason...the clouds lifted a little and I saw a glimmer of my old self. Although I still have bad days and some terrible moments, it really is better and I am able to manage my pain.<P>Hope this helps.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<BR>Thank you for all you've said on this thread. I was drawn to Cristalle's question,"Anyone stuck in grief?" I've just about buried myself and have been trying everything to get beyond my wounded spirit. What you have said has made more sense then anything I've heard so far. I've been stuck in depression for way too long. I'm trying to find that workbook on forgiveness, is it still in print? My local bookstore can't find it. Anyways, God Bless you for sharing your experience and insight.<P>Cristalle, Listen to what FHL says. I sure wouldn't want you to wallow in grief for as long as I have. It hurts alright but it isn't necessary to lose yourself totally in the process of recovery of your marriage.<BR>God has created us as individuals not extentions of our spouses!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>eyes wide open<BR>

Taj,<P>It is The Choosing to Forgive Workbook by Les Carter and Dr. Minirth. Yes it is in print. I got mine at Barnes & Nobles probibly in the self-help section. It is a Christian book, so you may look there. You can also order it on line.<P>I hope it helps..it did wonders for me as did Heart of Commitment by Scott Stanley.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL<P>Thank you for posting that. <P>------------------<BR>Bobbie<P>

Cristalle<P>Check out the website on my thread - "Survivingloss" , It has really good ideas about grieving, in the book - "How to survive the loss of a love", and also how to cure your own depression - what it is, what to do etc. The whole text to 3 really useful books is online ... Hope this helps.