Jilly- not ignoring ya, I gotsta think about what you wrote for a bit!

*hugs*

I've been away on a business trip for the past few days. I feel completely overwhelmed by work, way more than anyone could possibly do in the given amount of time. I'm also absolutely incredibly blankety-blank ANGRY at H.

*rant on*

DS's got some raffle tix to sell for their school right before I left. I asked H to take the kids around to the neighbors to sell them (the tix, not the kids LOL) while I was gone, he hemmed and hawed. He's not HONEST enough to just say no. But I didn't expect him to do it. But the first night I was gone, DSa called me and was all excited, saying that H was about to take them to sell tix. I said that's great! When H got on the phone I asked him about it and thanked him for doing it. I coulda sworn that he said he wasn't doing it for me so I don't have to thank him.

The next time we talked DSa was all sad because H didn't take them after all. When I asked H about it, he said he never said he would take them. But somehow the kids got the impression he said he would, and I thought he implied the same to me on the phone. He said he never said that.

This happens over and over. That's why the MC said we (I) should always be sure to clarify exactly what the other person is saying. Like, to him, who swam on his high school swim team, "taking the (4 year-old) kids swimming" meant sitting on the shore and watching while they splashed in water up to their waist; to me it means getting in the water with them and helping them actually learn to swim. I would call what he did, "wading". Did I mention he was on his school's swim team???

I am so fed up with this [email]cr@p[/email] of dishonesty, withholding information, and passive aggression.

What really gets me is that on the day I left for my trip, I spent most of the day thinking how wonderful he is and how much I was missing him. When I finally arrived, one cancelled connection and 12 hours later, and finally was talking to him on the phone, I was trying to say some of the things I'd been thinking but he was being pissy and ultimately ended up hanging up on me because I was trying to clarify the situation with selling the tix.

If there's one rule I could make, it's to not hang up on each other. And he knows how I feel about that. But he did it anyway. And didn't answer the phone when I tried calling back.

This morning he took DSb skiing without me or DSa. DSa said he didn't wanna go. But I really don't like the trend.

I'm so hopping mad.

Yesterday on my way home I resolved to try to go into a sort of modified Plan A, as an experiment, to see if it would turn things around. Cus me trying to let him know how I'm feeling, me being H&O with him, does not work with him. It either gets ignored or I actually think he thinks of it as a LB - any talking at all is a ***ing LB.

So that's what I was deciding yesterday on my trip home, and pretty much as soon as I get home he starts being rude and obnoxious anyway, and all my good intentions are blown out the window.

GGGRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr.

Someone talk me down.

Tell me what to do. One thing I'm considering is going back to only communicating with him via email. That sometimes seems the only way he can communicate.

Oh, and the sex challenge - yeah I was gonna try that too. Not now... unless... how about angry sex? Is that ok? Or, like, can I just be totally dishonest, and act to him like everything's good, as an experiment?

I know that's not honest, and not MB, but I'm so angry right now and me being H&O with him doesn't seem to do anything good.

Okay, jayne, honey. Breathe. Everything is okay, right now, just in this moment. There are lots of things that don't feel okay, today, this is your signal that they ARE NOT working for you. Your anger is actually good information.

Jayne, I am asking you for direction here. I see a couple of options for a rough day like today, depending on how you personally process and work through things. Let me know of any others that you see, too:

1) see what you can learn in Conflict - get as much information as you can from this anger right now, before you go back into denial again and are willing to accept or even prefer the status quo

2) retreat to withdrawal - if you already got the information that you need from your anger (I suspect not, because you're still angry) calm yourself down as much as possible quickly. Let the issues sit for a while until your H gives you enough deposits to go back to the State Of Conflict where you'll be motivated to work on this stuff.

3) try some Intimacy - this on the outside may look like withdrawal, but personally feels very different. Give your will and your H and your M over to your Higher Power. See what small action that you can take today from your choice to love.

I like this quote from Al Turtle, "Either today is going to be a good day, ot I'm going to learn something." Your choice, jayne. Cat reminded me last week that there are no wrong answers here. No matter what you do today, you can overcome it. Any of these answers, or any other answers you come up with, will lead to you calming down at some point and continuing to change your relationship until it's one that you are enthusiastic about.

I like how LA reminds us of a spiral staircase. That it may well FEEL like we're in the same spot, but actually we've made a ton of progress from how unhappy we were. For example, that we recognize that's something is wrong faster, which limits how many withdrawals that it can make. We are able to resolve the issues more rapidly and in ways that build our love for each other.

So, jayne, what do you want today?

((((jayne))))

I'm sure he does think it's an LB. It reminds me of the change back talk we've been having on some threads. You fixing yourself is uncomfortable for him, makes him angry, makes him want the old comfortable you back. So any clarification is seen as you changing things, upsetting the old balance, and picking on him, as though you're saying you know better now so you're going to force him to change by clarifying with him. The main point I got in Dance of Anger is that you have to reinforce with the person that you are not abandoning them by improving yourself, but rather making things better FOR them. Sometimes it's hard for them to see that end of the tunnel.

Jayne, what were the options? Were there any options where he could say no without being a failure to you and the boys? Or was he set up for certain failure? Lots of parents are not enthusiastic about hawking raffle tickets. Does that make them all incompetent?


Jayne, I'm so sorry. I know how much we want to protect our kids from dissappointment. How much it hurts to let the kids feel the consequences of their parents' actions. Did your kids share their O&H with him about this? With you? Have they been validated by either of you that yes, this is painful? That they are not the cause, and that this is not their problem to own or to fix?



Jayne, do you see that this is not yours to own nor to fix, either? Can you halve the withdrawal by seeing that this is about him, not about you?

What about asking H to take DSa alone some time, too? So that they each get time to bond with their dad?

I hear you, hon. How's your self-care? What would you like to do to feel better?

I thought Plan A does include your respectful O&H? "Say what you mean, mean what you say, just don't say it mean." Did I get that wrong?

But YOU hear yourself, jayne. Your boys hear you. And you can listen and repeat what your H says, so he can hear himself. Remember, Plan A is the reality-bringer. The carrot and the stick.

That darn reactivity! Jilly and cat posted some great links and input on my thread last week. Do you think that would help you with your reactivity, too? I am trying to make peace with mine. To understand that there is only so far that I can push myself. That I need to be patient with myself where I am at. I need to honor myself by getting the distance from my triggers that I need.

Jayne, I'm trying not to be nit-picky. But from here, it seems like to him, communicating in imprecise terms is working JUST FINE. That it's only not working for YOU. What about looking at communicating by email for your sake? Have you ever read that Boomerang Relationship article? It's great for learning how to not feed the cycle.

Jayne, look at this again. Life is so good. You are so blessed. A little overly blessed right now, LOL, between work and the kids and the growth opportunities with H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just the part where your reactivity wants to get sucked into the passive-agressive drama that makes you feel like it's not good. But you'll learn how to stay detached.

Are you feeling any better than when you last posted?

(((jayne)))

Thanks y'all. There's a lot of good stuff there. I'll have to digest it.

I just got home a couple hours ago, and logged on a few minutes ago. I just wanted to let you know I'm reading and thinking about what you wrote.

I'm also covered with a rash, I think it's an allergic reaction to something I ate or came into contact with while traveling, or maybe to the laxative medicine I took when I got back. I've never taken a laxative before so I may be allergic and not know it.

Have you taken a Benadryl?

Jayne, thanks for popping in. I wanted to share something else, too, that LovingAnyway shared with me. That we can get frustrated, too, when we take the consequences for actions that are not ours. Was that the case here?

I'm glad, too, that you shared your situation, because it also helps me have empathy for myself for how reactive I get in similar situations. I wonder why that is, that it is easier to identify with someone else?

Jayney,

Just wanted to let you know I am thinking about you... sorry to hear about the stuff with H and your trip, and the rash, and your stomach. Hope you get to feeling better soon. We have been sick around here for the last couple weeks and things often seem harder when you just aren't feeling well.

Hang in there.

Jilly

Thanks everyone... If I get through my most urgent To Do List today I will come here and respond, and update. I'm trying to not use this board as an excuse to procrastinate some urgent items... so that's incentive for me to finish my to do list!

I did pop in here to read for a few minutes and saw something I wanted to comment on:

Cat, I hope you're reading. If so, please let me give you a *hug*. I was reading your thread and went over to Recovery to see what Jilly was talking about. I'm sorry things got messy. *I* for one understand what you meant, and I think it was worth saying.

I'm saying this on my thread and not yours because this next thing may be inflammatory, and I didn't want to pollute your thread with it. I had this thought a few days ago when reading something else, and wanted to comment. And now I see it again.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with the statement that an A is as bad as the death of a child. I know that's what this website says, but here I refuse to "toe the party line." If I had to choose between my H having an A and one of my kids dying, I'd choose to save the life of my kids. EACH AND EVERY TIME. NO HESITATION.

I'm not sure but I think the people I keep reading this from have no kids. Sheesh and double sheesh.

If I had to choose between my *life* and my kids' lives, I'd save my kids' lives. I was talking about this to a guy at work, a dad, who said the same thing. It isn't us being self-sacrificing. It's really what we would want to do.

I would not sacrifice my life to keep my H from having an A. I would not, for example, starve myself to keep him from having an A. But if we were starving for lack of food, I would give up my food to give to my kids. Who wouldn't???

If people can get upset over the lack of sensitivity of anyone who dares to dessicrate the concept that an A is the absolute most evil thing a person can do, then I can get upset over the lack of sensitivity of comparing an A to the death of a child.

Jayne, I so agree. Maybe that's why I feel the way I do, too. Now that I have a child, NOTHING is more important in my life than her safety and well-being. I'm willing to do things I never would have considered, now that she is here, for her benefit. Again, we are adults and we make adult decisions and suffer our own consequences. We also have the adult capability to improve our lives, or fix things, when children don't or can't. You make a good point. Thanks.

Sooooooooo............................................

I think I've been avoiding looking at my own stuff long enough. The semester's winding down and I think I will have the time, and I think I NEED to MAKE the time. So, here I am and here I go.

I am........ at this moment........ utterly and thoroughly disgusted with the male species. *RANT *VENT* *stomp* *pity party*

The sitch at work has been pure **** this year, and H has been promising that he will definitely have a job and I don't have to be here next year. Nada. Zilch. Nyet. Nein. He contributes nothing to the finances of this household, and says he makes up for it by paying all the family expenses during the summer. That's getting harder and harder to swallow. Plus he tells me *nothing* about his finances, how much money he's making, how much his mortgage payment is, how much he's still making... I thought his telecommuting pay ended at the end of December. I now find out he's still getting paid. But not contributing to our expenses.

I find myself getting really tired of his responding to every question or comment with a joke. Sometimes I think it's a good thing that we have a sense of humor about things, but good grief, I'd like him to take my concerns seriously SOMETIME.

And now it looks like his telling me that I don't have to stay in this awful place if I don't want to, is a crock. (And it is pretty awful. Someone pretty high up is talking to legal counsel for me. I think they've been having problems with the ppl I'm having problems with for a long time. Two different ppl have told me I have nothing to worry about, these other ppl are clearly out of control and I "will be protected." That doesn't make working there any more palatable.)

So ..... grrrrrrrrrrr..... After xWH left me I said I would never count on a man to pay the bills, that I would always make sure I could support myself and any kids, and if he contributed too, then bonus. Self-fulfilling prophecy maybe?

I'm so TIRED of trying to communicate in any form with this man! Tonight at dinner was just so frustrating. Has been for a long time, I just haven't had time to think about it.

I think I need to get back on track. I'm finding myself snapping at him, being irritable, DJing, etc. When I first came here, I kinda did a twisted form of Plan A - there wasn't an A but our marriage was in pretty bad shape, empty love buckets with holes in the bottom. So I figured, if we were gonna split up, I wanted him to *miss me* when I was gone. So that was my motivation for stopping the LBs and trying to meet his ENs.

I worked a little on learning to make respectful requests and to POJA. But I haven't been thinking about doing that too much lately. I've also slipped back into DJs.

What to do now? I guess even though I'm feeling disgusted, I guess I want to first of all stop the DJs. I guess I need to make amends... aw do I *have* to?

And what about H&O... he'd just as soon I never talked to him. So why bother? I feel like withdrawing, would that be so bad? I feel like I can't count on him to help with FS or emotional support, he helps a lot with FC and DS but I can't really count on it. Forget my number one EN for conversation. We're going on a trip in 2 or 3 weeks, so that's a great opportunity to bond, to fill our love buckets... but not with the way I'm feeling or behaving. So I want to turn this around soon.

*sigh*

Men. If they can put a man on the moon... why not all of them?

Jayne, I was respectfully waiting for you to get back to focusing on your own stuff. I trusted that you'd know when you're ready. That said, I'm very excited to hear that you're ready

I think you're saying that you want to start with the DJs. IMO, you being willing to work on this today is amends in itself. Have you reread Harley's article on DJs lately? What have your experiences been wwith the alternative he proposes, respectful persuasion? Is this what you were referring to when you said your H doesn't want to listen to you?

I think this ties into the Conversation EN you mentioned, too. When I don't feel amicable, I reread or review in my head that Q&A>Meeting ENs>Conversation is Boring article. It's helped me with my self-talk, too. Dr. harley has such a calming way of writing that sometimes I feel better at that point, ready for conversation, feeling good about myself for being willing to try.

Sometimes it's more honest for me to be quiet. In Alanon I read about maintaining a friendly silence instead of a glaring one, and that really works for me. What does your silence look like?

I'm sorry you're at this place. How much of it can you convey to your H? If he doesn't like to talk, can you write him a letter? We're always saying we need to let our spouse know if things are getting dangerously close to disaster so they'll have an opportunity to try to save the R, right? Do you feel like you need to give him the opportunity?

Whatever you do, please do not withdraw. I withdrew for over 20 years, thinking I could handle it. I couldn't; it's self-destructive and hurts you much more than your partner.

{{{jayne}}}

Thanks ears and cat.

So I've been putzing around with a half-hearted hodgepodge of MB ideas, thinking since there's not an A that I don't have to fully implement a Plan A. But I was just reading an article that I myself posted a link to a few minutes ago on another thread:


I tend to go back and forth between overcompensating and being bitter. Maybe it's time to break out of that pattern.

Ok cat you told me not to withdraw, I guess I won't withdraw for today at least. Really, this is what struck me:


I had heard that about several things, like holding a grudge, seeking revenge, etc... but somehow I didn't connect it to withdrawing. Thanks. That makes so much sense - what IS withdrawing anyway, if not nursing a grudge??? Wowies.

What's that saying about expectations? Something about setting yourself up to be disappointed? I sense a similar mindset in what it would take to nurse a grudge to maintain withdrawal.

A lot of my current resentment is also a reflection of things going on at work. I just got out of a meeting where basically something I had been telling people for several weeks back in February, and even showing them the facts in black and white, those things were just told back to me by the very people who didn't believe me before.

Have you ever been in a meeting where you express an idea, all the humans with p*s poo-poo it, then 5 minutes later one of those people mentions the exact same idea and everyone applauds it?

Earlier this year I was in a meeting, we were discussing diversity issues and that came up, how that is often a pattern. Five minutes later we were brainstorming ways to reach out to underrepresented groups, I mentioned an idea, one of those p*-humans interrupted me to say that he was just about to suggest the same thing and he went on to present it as his idea! Everyone in the room of about 70 people laughed and turned around and looked at me with support.

From a study a couple years ago:

The image I have is of the men being like Charlie Brown and the Peanuts gang, and any woman trying to communicate with them is the female teacher offscreen going "Waa-wa-waa-wa-waaaah." (Not "waaaa as in crying, more as in mumbling.)

LOL, boy, ain't that the truth! I'd bet money on it!

Ok, I have been able to formulate a specific question for y'all.

H just told me heard from the ppl he interviewed with a month ago. They are giving the first guy another 10 days to decide. When he first interviewed they said they would let him know by mid-April. After I encouraged him to check up with them, they admitted they'd offered it to another guy but if he didn't accept that they would offer it to H. They expected to know by the end of May. Now another 10 days.

I've been on the other side of the hiring process. They must really want this other guy a lot more, and they must be trying really hard to accommodate his requests.

Meanwhile, any other person would also be applying to other jobs instead of just waiting. H won't. In fact he's never actually gone job-hunting exactly. His first job after his degree was an offshoot of his thesis, and from there it's been basically just whatever the project offered. He's been involved in the same project since grad school.

Even if he's content to sit and wait, and doesn't mind the uncertainty, I crave security and knowing where I'm gonna be next fall. Not to mention I have obligations here I'd want to cover. Not to mention the kids' school, etc.

So here's the question: how do I act, since I'm feeling frustrated and aggravated and impatient and disgusted and tired? How do I handle this without DJs?

I just realized this relates to some stuff ears just wrote. Instead of making this post any longer I'm gonna stop here and start a new one.

That's right, I want to work again on eliminating DJs. That's at least better than when I first got here, when I would've had to start with AOs.

I'm so glad you think this is amends in itself! I've been refreshing my memory on various articles here, I'll re-read the DJ one too. I think respectful persuasion works pretty well when I do it. I can't recall any examples right now though.

What I really meant when I said H doesn't listen, I mean he doesn't answer or respond when I talk, just everyday conversation. I could carry on a whole convo without him saying a thing - and not because I'm content to do so.

For example, I may ask where something is. He doesn't answer so I'll try rephrasing, maybe asking if he saw it in a particular place. No answer so I'll ask about another place... until eventually I find it myself or give up.

Yes the Q&A>Meeting ENs>Conversation is Boring article is a good one, thanks for reminding me. I'll re-read it also. Maybe I should print these out and put them in my FLYLady binder.


This is what I especially wanted to answer, because it is exactly what was going on last night. I was glaring, definitely.

Can you clarify what you meant about it being more honest for you to be quiet? Because I got the being quiet part down last night but I don't think that's what you had in mind, the glaring. I think I understand a friendly silence but I'm not sure how to get there.

Thanks for all the reminders!

Jayne, did you read JL's post to WaterOak on her thread? I'd love to hear what you think about it, applied to your situation. We all have our own boundaries, but it seems to me if he isn't even staying functional (working enough to support himself and contribute to the family) that you've run into a boundary issue, not a negotiation one. I could see that there would be exceptions, like if you are able to achieve significantly more in your career because he's pulling extra weight in the DS/FS area. Is that the case here? Are there any other payoffs/benefits to the current arrangement?



My DD7 is like this, takes her time to process. I ask her if she has a first guess, that she can change it later. Actually, this has been a really helpful strategy for when I'm tongue-tied, too. But is he tongue-tied? Pre-occupied? My H can tune me out, too, and listen and repeat helps me with that. Also the POJA phrase, "How would you feel about that?" or "What do you think about that?" Do you have an attitude of curiosity and interest, or frustration, at these times?

For me, that's what the friendly silence is about. When I'm not in my regular attitude, but on the defense. I am practicing Stosny's HEALS method,

• Improve - actively do something, like exercise or clean something for 2-10 minutes (where did you hear that before ;))
• Connect - go hold H's hand, try the Friends of Good Conversation, play with the kids, call someone, hop on here
• Appreciate - gratitude list, listen to music, go out to the backyard and look at the lake
• Protect - boundary enforcement

Another great one is the Serenity Prayer, like TOOLS talks about is it mine to change? Or do I need to accept that it's not mine?

Sometimes, I'm still flooded for the moment, like that lizard, to where I don't want to call anyone, talk to anyone, connect to H, and so on. So at that point, friendly silence, where I'm keeping to myself, is more honest than pretending that I'm calm to interact. That used to not be enough, I felt trapped and needed to leave the house instead, and I give myself space when I need to do that, too.

Yes as a matter of fact I did read JL's post to wateroaks, and I thought it was amazing, right on target! Funny how I didn't think of applying it to myself... thanks for pointing that out!

I'm not sure what my boundary would be. I'm not at the point of this being a M deal-breaker. I sort of benefit from him doing most of the DS and FS, but the funny thing is, it seems things went better at work when I was being "single mom". That might just be a result of more commitments at work now since I thought I'd have so much extra time with H here.

If I'm not prepared to divorce or separate over something like this, what sort of boundary do I set? Something like "If you don't do this then I won't do that" is punishment, trying to control. I need an idea that goes more like, "I cant make you apply for jobs but when you don't, I feel stressed and insecure. I would like to know where we will be in the fall. I would like to know that we can keep our schedule to clear our credit card debt by the end of the year. I would like to know more about the Canada finances and to revisit whether we are sharing the load equitably. If you don't want to do any of this then I will .........................?????"

Thanks for the edits - yes "won't" is a DJ and "never" is almost never true!


I've said something similar to H but as far as I can remember he hasn't responded to that.


Frustration. So I'm probably not creating a safe atmosphere where he would feel more inclined to respond.

I just had a thought - he may be a conflict avoider and this may have a much bigger effect than I realized. Actually, I would definitely say he avoids conflicts if possible, I just never "labeled" him as such. But that means whether or not I seem to welcome his comments plays a huge part, right?

Can you give me a link to the Stosny's HEALS stuff please? (Yes the 2-10 minute cleaning... funny how everything ties in together, huh)