2,

EVERYTHING you said to her....is plan A.

This is Plan B:


This is not a 180:



And 2, did you notice her response...



The thing is she is wayward. She doesn't care how you feel. She's not even taking your feelings into consideration. Right now, to her, you are a non factor...I'm sorry if that's harsh, but it's more true than not. That is why you don't even need to have these types of conversations with her. They just set you up for heartache.

Expect nothing.

Right now you need to be following a plan, A, B, or 180. You need one to survive.

Michele,

Thanks for looking at it from an objective and caring perspective instead of calling me pathetic. I'm not in Plan A, B or 180. I'm in my own plan and I don't know that there's a name for it.

You're right, my feelings don't matter to her right now. But I've gotten to where I've decided to take responsibility for my own feelings. Did I surrender? No, I just decided to leave the battlefield behind. I'm done fighting...W will make a choice. She'll either choose to stay or choose to go. Whichever choice she makes won't hurt any more than what I've already been through. I've consciously chosen to remove myself - I need to heal, and I can do that with or without W.

2lives,

You are fully within your rights to continue to lie to yourself, Ive seen numerous BH's do the same thing in the past several months. In fact, there was a heated discussion on this very topic last week, and I see you headed directly where those BH's currently reside in LIMBO.

You say that you haven't "surrendered", but then go on to explain how that is EXACTLY what you have done. When you remove yourself from the battle and allow the other side to decide how or if it will continue is SURRENDER by its very definition.

If you want to live in a loveless M for the rest of your life, then that's is certainly your perogative, but if that is your goal, why are you even here? If you don't want to do ANYTHING to help your situation, why not remove yourself from this conflicting advice and live your life in the state of denial that you have chosen?

MyRevelation,

I don't recall a single post from you on any of my threads, and now you choose to dive in and tell me how pathetic I am? I realize that my choices recently are unconventional by the MB principles, and that has weighed on the choices I have made. You want to disagree? Fine. You want to try to persuade me of other options? Fine. But if you're only posting on this thread to call me pathetic and to ridicule me, you can go abuse someone else. I really don't care if you think I'm pathetic or whether YOU think I belong here or not.

Have a nice day.

2lives,

Look, if you want to get mad at me over just 2 posts, that's fine ... really it is!!! Sometimes its GOOD to get angry at those who "abuse" us. It allows us to defend ourselves and establish boundaries that will not allow us to be disrespected.

I only ask you to ask yourself one question, and to answer yourself honestly ... Why am I getting so angry at MyRev over just 2 posts, where he questioned my "strength of character", but continue to endure the pure "abuse", in silence, from my WW who has harmed me much more and deeper than MyRev ever could???

Who said I was angry? I just pointed out that I don't think you've been invested enough in my situation to question my "strength of character". Maybe you've been following the thread all along, but you had nothing to offer until just now.

I'm not angry at all...it's not that important to me. I was mildly insulted and felt I needed to respond to the insult. That's not anger.

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Denial is the state of mind you choose to live in.

You, and it is your right to choose to ignore the invaluable real life experiences that members have gone through themselves and seen numerous others go through before you.

You waste your time coming here. Why? Because you do not want advice that is proven.

What do you want? Only to be told do what that what you choose to do is the way to go.

How many BS's have you help to get their WS to give up their OP? How many marriages have you helped recover?

2lives,

I'm sorry, but I still sense a lot of "denial" in your posts.

Instead of deflecting the issue, why not comment on the question I asked in my last post (and we'll use YOUR words this time)???

Why did you get "insulted" enough by an anonymous internet poster to defend yourself, but refuse to defend yourself against your WW's continuing "abuse"???

2

By stepping back and allowing her to choose, you have given up YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE. You have taken away your part in any decision because anything you get to make a decision about is only pertinent if she decides to stay.


And the scary thing about that is that she is a wayward wife, in a wayward mindset, blinded by the fog. SHE IS NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING A LIFE ALTERING DECISION AT THIS TIME.

You might think that she has that capability, but her choices right now are bad choices. And they are based solely on emotions that are fledging. Emotions are just that...emotions. Nobody said that they were right or true.

Let me say....my FWH said many many things to OW. He believed he loved her at that time. I've seen the IMs. He wrote "ILU's" at least a dozen times in just one message. BUT...after DDay and several weeks into recovery, he told me he DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS THINKING AT THAT TIME!!!! He has even thanked me from preventing his R with OW from going further. CAUSE HE WASN'T THINKING STRAIGHT!!!!

That's what I'm talking here. You're leaving her the most important decision to make about YOUR and YOUR DD's life and she is in no condition to do that. It's like giving a six year old a decision to make that will affect the rest of their life. They are not capable for many MANY reasons.

You have choices. You should make the decision to not let HER make the final decision.

Michele,

I can see from my post how it looks that way. Really, I have not ceded control to her. She has the same options she's always had: stay or go. As long as going is a more attractive option to her, that's what she'll choose. My decision is the same that it's always been...I'm staying as long as I can. She can still decide to file for D, and my decision becomes moot.

See, I got to where I am now by thinking on the POH. What I kept coming back to is this: can you expect honesty from someone with whom you're being dishonest? You can't. I made big mistakes. I assumed that she'd never catch on to my snooping. She did. She started snooping on me. We got caught in a web of deceipt where we were both covering our tracks and neither one of us could tell what was real and what wasn't - because we both were being dishonest and knew that the other one was too. I simply stopped the chain of dishonesty. I unburdened my conscience and I gave her the opportunity to do the same. The road we were on was only leading to D.

I'm aware of the dangers. It wasn't an emotional decision on my part - it was based on putting myself in her shoes. I might also point out that it was the first time that I've initiated a canversation with her about our marriage that she didn't turn her back on. She was receptive and listened without interrupting. It allowed a change to happen - I don't yet know what that entails. But I know I feel a whole lot better about myself than I did before I said it to her.

Thanks for offering your thoughts. I value your opinions, and I will keep all you said in mind.

So are you still in plan A? Or if you'd rather...are you trying to meet her ENs?

In a previous post you wrote:


Did she ever fill out an EN questionnairre? I can't remember.

If not and you are still trying to meet ENs, she should do this. That way you will know WHAT makes her happy and HOW to accomplish it.

2,

I'm not going to put words in other people's mouths. But what others may see is that you have given up being proactive. You are now sitting back and allowing your WW to do as she wishes as long as she wishes and you will be here waiting for her when she's done. Do you see that?

And if that is actually the case, you will have more pain in your life as a consequence to this "inactive" plan. Nothing will get better even if she returns because you've lowered any expectation for her, and as a result for your M.

What if she does fully return to your M, what will your expectations be then? Will you have the leverage or the strength to request change? My guess is when and if she does come back she'll have the attitude...well I came back didn't I? Isn't that enough?....

What then? Will you settle for that?

Ahh yes, a BH is mad at MyRev.

I remember that time well.

You would do good to pay attention 2L2F.

To add...

I can understand about the snooping, but I don't agree with you on it. You have a right to know the facts about your own life. However, she found out about your snooping. So to you, YOU looked about as dishonest as she...is that right?

Your purpose for snooping and hers are totally different. She's hiding things from you. She is being deceitful. Your reasons were NOT deceitful.

She's playing the classic A game. She's trying to make you feel bad for searching for the truth. How can that ever be bad?

It's her fault for withholding it.

I hear you (all of you). Bottom line for me is this - the number 1 rule of Plan A is Don't LB. If snooping has become an LB, it's time to stop. So maybe I am back to a fresh start on Plan A...intent on doing it right this time. I've considered everyone's advice and warnings...I hear and understand. And I still think that the path I've chosen is the right one. I'm going to follow it for a while.

Special note to MyRev: Sincerely, I wasn't angry at your post. No one likes being called pathetic (even if they are). Puts people on the defensive. I heard you anyway, and just because I have a different perspective doesn't mean I'm angry. Seriously, I have much bigger things to concern myself with

Yes, you do ... you have a DIVORCE to plan for to keep from being abused again by the legal system.

Seriously, I just posted basically the same thing to Wats ... you have been in Plan A for MUCH TOO LONG. Prolonged Plan A's for BH's equals STBXH's. Just look around here yourself for the NUMEROUS examples.

It looks like (though I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself) that others here are concerned for you.

You seem to have the carrot part of Plan A down pretty well, but the worries are concentrated on the stick part of the plan.

You do well to avoid snooping if you react badly to what you find. In other words, if snooping prevents you from running your plan, then it doesn't help your efforts.

However, it also prevents you from knowing if your W is being honest, and if she is planning something that could hurt you (Like taking your DD and heading off to stay with OM.) That last might not be likely, but it has happened more than once to people who have come to MB for help. I am sure that those who advise continued snooping don't want you to be blindsided. And they want you to have information that can help you run your plan.

The 180 list is not officially part of MB, but it is used often here as part of the plan to prevent you from feeling like a door mat, and to make you more attractive to your spouse. A person who is begging and pleading for the WS to stay, is not very attractive.

So, you are doing the things that you believe will make you look good to your W (the carrot of plan A) but she isn't getting the stick part of it (the consequences.) The carrot part WILL make you look good, but the stick part makes life with OM look bad - or at least it makes it more realistic, and takes the fantasy away. Usually it takes both to break the addiction of an A.

The stick parts of plan A are ALWAYS SEEN AS LB'S BY THE WS.
When we make it difficult to carry on the A in secret, they hate us for it. However, they won't love us anyway if the A doesn't stop, so we use whatever methods necessary to get the A to end.

I can't read your W's mind, and I don't know what she is thinking, but from what you have said about her actions, she is not invested in the marriage. The stick of plan A makes looking outside the marriage much less appealing.

Another thing that can be very valuable is good boundaries. You can't make her do anything, but you can decide what you will do......... depending on what she does.

You have to decide what you need to stay with her. She can leave at any time, but you have that same choice.

So, what are the conditions under which you will stay?
That is something you need to know.

What kind of time frame will you allow? How long are you willing to wait for her to commit, and begin working with you? MC won't work while she is in contact, with OM (any OM) and you no longer check up on her to see what she is doing. Your only option now is for her to get on board, and become transparent to you. IN other words, she must be committed enough to give you her passwords and ask you to check up because she wants you to know she has had a change of heart.

Or you can choose to live with a person who has shown they can't be trusted, and who has done nothing to change that.

I recommend you also work on the list of things you will need to her change, in order for you to stay with her. Also, how long you will wait for this change before you will opt out.

You should contact a lawyer withing a few weeks to see what your options are so you can stand up for your rights if she files first. (I wish you would do this THIS WEEK.)

You can make the choice to stay around, let her do anything she wants, and hope she will change someday. I don't recommend this choice, but acknowledge it's yours to make.

Continue to be the light house. Don't let her push your buttons. There have been other posters over the years who reported that when verbally attacked by their spouse, they have had to turn their head to hide a smile, because they knew their spouse was following the WS script, and they knew what to say, and how to say it. I want you to be that good.

Do make a good life for yourself despite the ongoing problems.
DO THINGS weekly. At least one night a week, and some Saturdays a month. Do take your DD often, and invite your W. Do go even if your W chooses not to.

If your W won't go, and if she resists letting your DD go, you can discus it with her. "W, I am not sure why you are resisting me doing things with DD. If it was just this once, I could possibly see your reasons as being valid, but you have said no every time. Do you want to discuss the real reason for saying no?"

You need to bring things out in the open, and at least make her aware that you know there may be hidden motives. This type of discussion should take place whenever you know she is hiding things.

If she blows up, always walk away, but realize she could use anger as a way to avoid some topics.
You say something like:
"I won't talk about this until we can discuss it calmly. Let me know when you are ready."
If she does use anger as a delay, you have to put that in your decision making tree, and act on it according to your plan.

I highly recommend plan B before plan D.
Don't spend too long on plan A, or it will become too late, and you won't have it in you to plan B.

Hope you are well today.

Ss

Thanks SS. I'm digesting.

I contacted a lawyer today - waiting for response for a consultation. I'm 90% sure W has done so too.

Main focus right now is trying not to LB. That means withdrawing and not talking about the M at all. What little conversation there's been has been friendly.

I'm ok - I'm focusing on things that make ME feel good.

Main focus right now is trying not to LB. That means withdrawing and not talking about the M at all. What little conversation there's been has been friendly.

This is good. Many don't ever get this. See, the OM doesn't tell her "Lets talk about our relationship." He is busy telling her how great she is, and making her feel good. Can we talk about ways to make her feel good?

With the strain that the two of you have been under, you can't tell her some things directly.

Saying "I love you," or things like "You are very sexy," won't get you very far with the mind set she has now.

You can say things like:

"When the sun hits your hair like that you look so gorgeous.

Smile again like that.......... I have always loved that smile.

Thanks for getting that ______ for me while you were at the store, I really value your help.

You have a real talent for making DD happy. I'm glad you are her mom."

These are only examples. You need to think on what you really do like about your W, and put the thanks in your own words. These are the type of things that she won't reject, and they will get you points.

It's usually difficult to get in any "touching" these days too. Touch is a powerful bond, but a WS tells you to stay away. No hugs, no kisses ....... pretty much no anything.

There are ways to get in some "touch" also. Many things are similar as far as effect.

Walk her out to the car.
Open the door.
Get things for her when she is sitting.
Brush her hand with yours when you hand her something. (don't be obvious.)
Offer foot rubs, or back rubs. Stick to the rub at hand, don't stray.

If conversation is important to her, talk about safe things.
Comment on things she hears on the news. (That may be important to her.)
Take more interest in DD's life and discuss her progress. (probably you already do)
Slip vacation plans into this. (What do you think would be the most fun for DD, __________ or _________.)
Talk about WW's hobbies, or work. (Be careful about work, if the day was stressful, she may want to avoid discussing it.)

Use your listening skills, don't try to fix things. For instance, if WW starts to talk about a problem at work, men often say things like "What you should try is......"
What women need to hear is "So how does that make you feel?" or "Wow, I can't believe that," or "Did she really say that?"
Things that show you care, and that you are listening.


Another way to go about it is to remember when you first met. What attracted her to you? What kind of things did you say, and do then that you might be able to try again?

I hope some of these things help. I suspect you have heard most of this before, but I have found that when we are in the middle of problems, it is sometimes helpful to review.


SS

Sometimes there's really nothing to do but shake your head in complete disbelief.

2,

Make the distinction between LBing your WIFE and LBing your WW (see, you want to LOVEBUSTUP the affair).

Important to see the difference.

Focus on the known LB's as Harley describes them...ferret them out of yourself...don't go defining what your WW thinks love busts...'cuz you don't want to protect her affair.

Snooping stands for your marriage...it's not an LB. Listen to Michele...it's an LB to WW, not to real W, 'k?

You can't bring the truth, which is reality, if you choose not to know it. First goal of a REAL Plan A is to bust up the A...through exposure and reality...because the A is fantasy. Real lighthouses bring reality...have to snoop to know in order to bring and stand in it.

Don't be a light reflecting a false shore.

You've said you don't know how long you'll last at Plan A...listen to SS...woo your W and do not respond to WW...two separate folks. Confusing them is easy..."they bear a striking resemblance" as one longago BH said.

Hint: Your real wife will own her actions; WW don't. WW blame, shame, manipulate and lie...because they do so to themselves...of course they are gonna do so to you.

You can do this...don't relinquish the battlefield to your WW...we know you feel fatigued, run down and raw...and you revive when you lovingly detach (necessary to bring reality actively not reactively)...you're fighting for your marriage, for your REAL W...not this WW.

Respectful...I highly urge you to listen and repeat...hand back WW's words to her to confirm or clarify what you heard...and keep your hands off her stuff...fantasy is nutsy. (Search Orchid's reverse babble threads for great ideas for your responses.) Fight for your DD...do NOT be okay with whatever side of the fence WW decides...DECIDE now, for yourself, to focus on your choices...so that you can look in your mirror, no matter the outcome, and be proud...and so can your DD...when she knows in ten years time that you really did everything...

Did it well with clarity, respect, love and honor...'cuz that's who you really are...see where you are trying to manipulate...you intend to example...like O&H...state "I know you're continuing your A and you know you're attacking our marriage." Calmly, bring reality...and do not require her to answer that way...expect her to answer with fantasy; justifications. Consider re-exposure with every contact...because that shares the truth with others.

LA