I'm in a rough spot again

I just can't help but feel bad that she doesn't show me any affection whatsoever, none. Gees, it makes me feel so down. How can she stand to be around me like this without feeling anything for me? If I didn't want anything to do with her or didn't want to touch her, I'd go somewhere else. It just doesn't make sense to me. Like I said we get along fine, she just doesn't treat me any different than a co-worker. She doesn't even say good night before she goes upstairs, she just dissappears. When I kiss her good night on the cheek, she doesn't aknowledge it, like she's trying to ignore it. It's getting tough. I'm tired of feeling like crap all the time. I feel like I'm not on her thought process at all, like I'm an annoyance. Thats how I feel alot and it's getting harder to deal with.

Hey Dino! I'm back from the lake and getting ready for bed. I guess you are already well into your day over there on the other side of the world.

Anyway, I hear you making a lot of assumptions in your last post ... did she say she feels nothing for you? That she wants nothing to do with you? That she never thinks of you? That you're an annoyance?

I know that's how you FEEL, but how you feel and what is real and what is real about how SHE feels are two different things (hey that kinda rhymes!). Stop assuming the worst. What has your wife actually said or done? Distinguish that from what you are making it mean.

When I get down like this and get mad at my husband he tells me that I am doing it to myself, and I hate admitting that he is right because it means that I can't make him make me feel better. But I'll tell you, he's right ... LOL!

Dino, the more you deal with this, the better it will get. You'll get a second wind if you just keep pushing on I bet.

P.S. I know I'm not in the military, but I'm pretty sure your wife's army coworkers do NOT kiss her on the cheek good night So don't tell me she treats you like a coworker!

thanks Snuggle

I do get wound up sometimes beween what is real and what I percieve. I'm getting better but man it's tough sometimes. There's no way for me to know exactly how she feels, so I shouldn't assume. But sometimes actions say so much. I know she's not in the right frame of mind so her actions may not necessarily reflect how she's really feeling. I just need a kick in the shin once in awhile to keep me on track. You know she's said that same thing to me before? That I'm doing it to myself. I guess the thing that leads me down that path is that she says and does nothing, NOTHING! It's like the only difference in our house right now from before she went on her trip a year ago, is that we don't kiss, we don't cuddle, we don't have sex and she doesn't say she loves me as often as she used to. And the general feeling of tension in the air. Also, she was alot nicer to me back then. We're just surviving in the same house, that's it. I look at the positive things, that we're still together, but this is no way to exist. We'll never last staying this way and it's not healthy for either of us. There's going to be a day of reckoning sometime, I guess I need to survive until that day comes.

I've got to stop expecting things from her. But when does it become too much? Obviously not a single one of my ENs are being considered at all right now, none. And Snuggle, I'm just thinking out loud right now so don't chastise me please . I mean, months have gone by. I'm just hanging on, surviving and trying to do my best. I guess it's a personal decision huh? Just thinking out loud.

And yes, coworkers don't kiss her good night on the cheek. At least not now that she's home (small bit of sarcasm).

welcome back, hope your trip was nice, we're off to Germany this weekend. Not by ourselves but at least work won't be a distracting factor for her, we'll see.

ciao

Dino, a lot of your worrying seems based on the assumption that how your marriage is today is how it is going to be going forward. But how your marriage was a year ago isn't how your marriage stayed. How your marriage was five years ago isn't how your marriage stayed. You're not going to stay the way you are today.

You have become aware that you want your marriage to be healthy and happy and that you are a huge contributing factor to that. The past 20 years, you've just floated along whichever way life takes you. Now you've realized you have a rudder and can influence where you go.

Don't live in the past worrying about how things were in the past. You're future is already going to be different now. Look where you're going

Hi Dino! I was on another board and came across this post and thought of you:

Wants and needs

You do not get what you want, or even what you need. You get what you are. When you want this or need that, you are supporting the reality that you do not have it. Instead of putting your energy into wanting or needing, put it into being.

By your thoughts and actions, with your words and feelings, you can choose how to be. Use that powerful choice to give energy, attention and the substance of your life to those things you value most.

Instead of working to convince the world that you need some particular thing, put your effort into expressing it through your own life. Give up the habit of wanting more, and put your energy into living exactly as you choose to live.

Through the miracle of your life in this moment right now, you already have access to all that is. Your challenge is not one of want or need, but of appreciating and making full use of all that is available to you.

Instead of pushing life's abundance away with your wants and needs, let that abundance freely flow through you. Always live according to the best you can envision, and know all the joyful treasures of life.

Thanks for the encouragement

I know that things will not remain the same. And I know that I have a very direct impact on how things go from here. Things have already taken a turn toward the positive even though they're not near as good as I'd like them to be. But then again, who doesn't want things to be even better, it's human nature.

I've been in a bad funk the last couple of days. I'm not doing so well with that meditation thing. I haven't found the magic mind control formula to get the bad thoughts off my mind. I've been letting myself get down by thinking about all the things that make me feel bad instead of the positive things. It's real easy to do you know.

I miss her Snuggle, I miss her real bad. I'd be lying to you if I said I wasn't scared still. I'm doing good and your help has been awesome. I don't think anything will make me feel "good" about the situation, but I'm getting better everyday at finding the new perspective. I've definitely come to grips with the reality of things and understanding the importance of taking care of myself. Doing all these things on my own is taking a toll though. I hope she joins me in the fight one day.

Dino, I just know she will join you one day. She must be pretty awesome for you to love her this much, so there's no way she can watch you fight this hard for your marriage and not be moved eventually.

I can sure sympathize with trying to keep from dwelling on bad things. It's a hard habit to break, isn't it? I'm trying to do it too. In my case I've got a real problem person at work that I'm starting to obsess over. I have to just let it go so I can focus on work again, but it is SO HARD! Especially when he sends nasty emails every day to people around me with total lies about me Today our lawyer (yes, it's so bad I had to consult with legal!) said the best thing to do was probably just ignore him, not respond to his emails, not return his calls and hopefully when he is no longer rewarded with attention he will go away. We'll see.

Anyway, tomorrow I'm just going to try and give myself a little mental smack when I catch myself thinking about him and force myself to do something else (like real work!). I'll let you know how it goes. I know I'm not disciplined enough to do meditation yet so I won't even go there

Found a little thing while poking around, I thought it was worth sharing.

my soul's journey:

To let go of the fear and anger which imprisons my heart,
To relinquish all childish expectations and live joyfully in the world as it is --
not as I wish or imagine it to be,
To be free of the always craven and ever-craving ego,
To be released from the endless hungers of the body,
To see God in others,
To see God in everything,
To die without death and merge my consciousness into the
cosmic sea of bliss from which I came,

This is my soul's journey.


Snuggle, don't give that guy any satisfaction. As long as people respond to his kiddy stuff, he'll keep doing it. Do not let him create an uncomfortable work environment for you though, that should be handled by his supervision if it affects your performance. Anyway, be strong, he's just being a pest. Hope your day goes good.

The Buddha taught that the first principle of existence is impermanence.

Absolutely everything in this universe is impermanent.

Impermanence creates uncertainty.

I don't know about you, but I have a very low tolerance for uncertainty.

Uncertainty causes me discomfort.

Discomfort causes me to think stupid things.

Stupid thoughts cause me to take stupid actions.

My stupid actions bring about unfortunate results.

Luckily, the unfortunate results are impermanent.

Is this a great universe or what?

LOL! I liked both your posts That first one would be a good mantra for when you are battling those bad thoughts.

I did pretty good today, but I can't take all the credit. About halfway through the day I developed a stabbing headache that kept me pretty distracted. I've really got to remember to restock my desk with some tylenol! A couple of my coworkers ran into Mr. Pest at lunch so when they came back and relayed the story it did trigger me a bit and I logged onto the BPD board I've been using a lot but I didn't let myself check anything else on the web (although now that I am thinking about it I do have the urge to check his websites and see if he has been up to anything new). It sounds like he's latched onto someone over at LAPD, so maybe he will stop his harassment campaign. My boss and upper management at my work have backed me up and realize that he is basically a nutjob, but since he hasn't broken any laws we haven't been able to do much to stop him from emailing or calling in his complaints. He did get banned from coming to my office though.

So how was your day? Are you all set for your Germany trip? I wish I was going to Germany! I love to travel, but just don't have the time or budget for much this year.

My day was ok. Not good not bad. I'm still in this funk though. I don't know why but I've really been feeling like junk. Don't know why it's been that way the last couple of days. I just look at her everyday and I want so much to touch her and have her pay some kind of attention to me. I'm just feeling so lonely for her I guess. She's so beautiful but I feel almost like a pervert when I look at her. I'm really trying to stay positive. I even laminated a little card to keep in my wallet that has a few of the positive things from my list. I want/need to detach myself from these feelings. I just don't know how to do it. I can feel the fearful thoughts trying to creep back in.

Yesterday she was talking to my son when we were buying some football equipment for him online. She was talking about what sizes to get him and she said, "just get the bigger sizes, that way you can still use them when we move to Arizona". I don't know where I'm moving to when I leave here yet. Arizona is where we want to go but she has said that if she doesn't like where they try to send me, she's going back to Arizona with the kids. I know there's no way to know what's going to happen when the time comes, but she's made a couple of comments the last few days about moving there with no mention of me included, just what she's going to do. Those little things really rip me apart. It would be one thing if she said them in anger or during an argument but when they are said in casual conversation, they seem to carry much more weight. I'm just reading into things so much, it's really taking a toll on my strength.

I've been Plan A for 3 months now, I can say there have been improvements. No commitment from her. No effort from her. Just a state of nonconfrontation. It a nutshell, that's basically what we have. I'm definitely better in how I deal with things with her. I'm providing the best possible environment for her. And I'm doing ok for myself. Not a bad situation but nowhere near a marriage or relationship between two people. How long do I continue Plan A? How do I know if Plan A is even working? She isn't leaving so am I really even in Plan A? I'm dang sure not in recovery, were not working toward anything as far as I can see. Nonconfrontation, that's about it. I just don't understand where we're at or where we're going. I hate just coasting along, that's how we got here in the first place.

Snuggle I have another question for you

The contact with OM topic still bugs the snot out of me. She's grudgefully told me that she won't contact him anymore. You know my situation, he lives in another country so I'm not worried about physical contact. She has yet to tell me anything close to wanting to direct any of her energy into making our marriage work yet she doesn't tell me it's the end. Although most of her comments are directed to the latter (fog???, who knows?). She still sticks by her statement that, even though she admits she made a terrible mistake by letting herself get weak, she still values him as a friend and the situation doesn't change that.

I guess what I'm telling you is that all these factors play into how I feel. I'm not yet strong enough to detach myself and say, it is what it is. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that she is still contacting him, but her lack of commitment to me in that matter makes it a thorn in my side. I keep thinking about what everyone here says about contact with OM will make recovery impossible, that we can't move forward unless there is absolutely no contact. Is that why we seem to be stuck here coasting along? Is that why she is seemlingly content with how things are right now? I can't believe she is content with this mess but she doesn't seem to want to improve anything either? Maybe her EN for domestic support is being fulfilled by me and her EN for openess and honesty is being filled by him long distance, I know that is one of her top ENs. I don't believe she is even open to any of her other ENs being met right now. Those are the only 2 I can think of that are even open for discussion. If she hasn't even shown me the commitment to NC, why should I believe it to be true? Should I keep pressing that issue? My gut feeling is no. She has made it crystal clear to me that my pressing her about things and making her feel "locked up" is a major factor in why we're here in the first place. She tells me that I made her feel suffocated by my past jealousy and that is the biggest hurdle she has to get over if we have any chance. She tells me that she never wants to feel smothered by anything ever again, tells me that at her age she shouldn't have to feel like that, that she should be able to make her own decisions without worrying about flak from me. Says I should support her with any thing she wants to do. (I did become pretty jealous and overbearing in the last few years, from lack of self esteem). Even if I did press it and she finally caved and said "you're right, I promise I won't contact him anymore" what meaning would it have? I'm just thinking out load again, I sure would like your opinion though, or anyone elses who happens to be reading.

Have patience with me Snuggle, I'm still struggling through all of this. Good days and bad days remember? Things may seem worse than they are when you read my posts but I'm doing as well as anyone could hope.

Dino,
I am with you in spirit in many ways.

My H has tried to convince me that any contact with OW is not harmful and does not affect our relationship. He admits the A was a mistake but that's it. But...he also ends a phone call with "I still love you" so where does that leave me? He is just coasting along without voicing any form of commitment to our M, not directing any energy towards recovery, and he acts content with this life. It seems easy for him to sit back, watch the W struggle thru the uncertainty of life in limbo between being married and facing divorce, and watching DS struggle to understand and deal too.

Is this USUAL WS behavior until they snap out of it??

I'm not sure but it is exhausting and I am not strong enough either to walk away. I hope you get your answers and because I feel the same, I hope you don't mind if I read the responses you receive and try to use the same advice.
Best wishes, and stay strong!

Dino,

Do you think you have been or are controlling? i didn't see I was in a lot of ways but have seen the light and effects of that.

Hearts

You know, the only thing that keeps me going is the thought that one day she is going to "snap" out of it. If she could only see how ridiculous all of this is, I believe she would. My wife has always been committed to our family and I'm not sure if she's really thought about the possibility of us really being divorced. She says she has thought all of that through and has come to grips with it. She tells me that she is willing to burden the blame with our families that her A was the reason for our failed marriage although she really blames everything on me and my past (I think thats the fog speaking when she says those things).

But she truly believes that she can continue a friendship with this guy and that he has nothing to do with our situation as it is. She says that she would've came to this point with or without that A (again I attribute these comments to fog). But she's always has friendship with males and she's never been the girly type. That's one of the things that attracted me in the first place. There are some circumstances surrounding the A that got them both in alot of legal trouble, my W has already been punished but OM hasn't yet, She says she is not in contact with him but says she is concerned with his well being because she still values him as a friend. I know she's contacted him prior to our agreement but I didn't ask if she said "I love you" to him, I don't want to know. Since my past of unfounded jealousy has caused much of our marriage problems, it's hard to take a hard stance on this because it triggers her fear of my jealousy again and she doesn't want to feel my controlling behavior ever again. She tells me she isn't contacting him but I'm not very confident of that and she doesn't care much if I am.

I don't really believe that this is easy for her, it seems that she's struggling too. She's always been better at keeping her feelings inside so I don't know. I'm sure that she's not content with how things are but what she intends to do about them is what my fears are based on. Fear is useless but it's there all the same. I'm just using my desire to save our marriage as my strength, I'm hoping that one day she recognizes it. I don't believe I can keep this up forever, neither her or I will survive this way. Something will have to give one day, either one of us will give up or we'll start REAL recovery. For all I know, she's already given up and hasn't been able to say so, i don't know. But until she walks away from me, I'll have to keep fighting, I owe it to her and my kids. I hope we can get some insight from those that have survived simliar situtions.

Good luck Hearts

ezb

In the beginning I wasn't controlling. But with the domino effect, the little things in our marriage that accumulated over time caused me to lose some self esteem little by little. I started to be controlling because of jealousy and because she started to withdraw from me as a result. It wasn't necessarily men that I was jealous about, I got jealous because I would see that she seemed to enjoy her time away from me more than the time she spent with me. It became a constant struggle with me and I always allowed my taker to win and I would LB and DJ all the time, which brings us to the present. I truly believe that my behavior in this area is the biggest downfall for our relationship. I won't do it again, I've made a promise to myself that I will never again allow that to happen, with or without her. So your answer is yes, I was controlling. I believe it will be the biggest barrier between her and I and the possibility of recovering our marriage. I'm not sure she'll be able to get past it. She is so afraid of feeling the stress of being controlled that I'm not sure she'll ever let me back in. Until that happens, until I can prove that I won't do it again, until she can let down her guard and give me a chance to prove myself, we won't get far. I hope it's not too late and I'm trying my best to make her feel safe with me. I really screwed up by being the source of pain instead of protecting her from it. I really don't know if she's ever going to get past it. I'm just trying to get by, day by day, until our paths split farther apart or until they join together again.

Me too Dino, it has been our greatest source of pain (or I should say hers and now mine). Thats where my concentration is right now I just have to see the patterns before they develop and it will change.

Did you see my other thread on control and manipulation? Not sure if it can help you but it sure helps me. It's hard not to do the controlling things when your in our situation or at least it's hard not to make her feel like your controlling her.

Dino, what exactly is going on in your lives? There's no contact any more, right? Are you going to MC? Have you called the Harleys? Is she refusing to interact with you?

cat

There is no contact she tells me. We are not going to MC because she says she not ready for anything right now. She will not even go to a doctor for stress or any other problems. We have not called the Harleys because right now it would be useless. I've done IC on my own and even seen a doc about depression and have been here on MB on a regular basis. If by interaction you mean talking, doing things, living together then yes, she is interacting with me. But if you mean interacting by trying work out our marriage issues and move somewhere in our relationship, then NO, she is not interacting with me. Everything I find here says that i'm still early in my plan, that I need to Plan A still. As of now, whenever I start any dialog that involves anything about the A or our relationship, she starts the rewind of our past and all the things that have made her move away from me, she replays all my mistakes of the past, says she wishes I would've changed earlier, says it's too late, all the text book things. The last time that happened was about 3 weeks ago. She asks me to leave it alone and give her time to heal before we start into those things. She keeps telling me that she can't change overnight, but things aren't changing at all. She hasn't tried to pretend or paint any rosey pictures for me, she's been bluntly honest about that. She says she doesn't want to commit yet but doesn't want to call it quits yet either. She says it would be unfair for her to make a decision right now with all the pressures and stress she has from work, retirement, relationship etc. She says that she may "change her mind" about us once she gets past some of the stressors she has right now (what is that supposed to mean, kind of puts the priority of our marriage into perspective). So I'm taking advice I've recieved here and am avoiding "relationship" altogether. Those talks quickly drain what little I have in her love bank. Someone told me not to even engage in relationship talk until your love bank balance is way above full, or at least until you can make a withdrawal without bankrupting yourself. So thats what I'm doing for now. I'm thankful that she's not jumping the gun and calling it quits but it's not the other direction either. LIMBO.

Because of our current relationship, I sometimes think that she's "cake eating", contacting this guy and lying about it, how can I know? But then I ask myself, what can she possibly expect to get from OM on a long term basis from 5000 miles away? Can she really exist like this with me and be emotionally sustained by a guy in another country, by phone? Does she think that phone calls can really take the place of a good husband and family? I don't know cat, and I'm starting to get a little irritated. Am I doing the right thing by staying in Plan A? it's only been 3 months, were not fighting, were not uncivil. We're like roommates, who sleep in the same bed and pretend that this is the way things are supposed to be for now. She says I love you most of the time, not to my face much if at all. She does little to nothing for me. I try to engage her with invites to things, she declines. Asked her to come to my softball game last night, she said she didn't know if she could get out of work in time. I assumed that since she didn't show, she was still at work. After my game I came home and she was already there, that made me feel good. She's just not that nice to me, not really mean but not so pleasant either. She shows no interest or effort in doing anything for me, not even the courtesy of saying goodnight when she goes up to bed.

I've thought about Plan B. But it would be impossible with our situation. We live in England, no family, no friends close enough to take me and kids in. No way to afford another place and good luck finding one for 6 months. I'd move out on my own but theres no way she gets to stay in our house and enjoy my kids when she is the one fighting our recovery, or the very least, not participating. We're leaving in 6 months and my fear is that when we go back, she goes her way, I go mine. There will be a fight for the kids if that's the case. cat, I'm still dedicated to my goal but I do think about things. I can't help but try to provide myself a little protection, I have very little at the moment. So this is my life, what the heck am I supposed to do?

It might not be a bad idea for you to call the Harleys by yourself. Tell them your situation and see what the expert says. Remember, we're just normal people here, we only repeat what we've read. I guess if it were me, I'd save up the $185 and call.

Do you have a thread over on Infidelity? They have more experience with this, and they don't often come over here; maybe they'll have a better game plan.