KDL,

If you want to know my "true" indentity, check out my post.

I have been here a while and have followed your story. I was having puter problems last night and couldn't log on, but I was following your story and my heart was aching for you. My own heart was bleeding last night. Seems you, I and queenie were having a rough go of it.

Your point on your anger towards the OW is understandable. I have the VERY same anger. Its bad. But I will tell you that it really wouldn't matter what she is, you will feel the same way. WS BOW is married, well-groomed (unfortunately is very pretty....), professionally advanced, and well loved by many. ..BUT I still think of her a gutter-whore who has no problem spreading her legs for any man who pays her a compliment.....see what I am saying about ANGER.. ..

I too am looking for a way for that to subside, because it is not who I truly am. I have never hated someone so completely in all my life and I don't care for it. Of course, my sitch is a little different because I am in Plan B, because WS doesn't want to give up communication with her...well, at least following the Extrodinary Precautions.

Anyway, I really don't have any advice. I just wanted to let you know that I have been praying for you and all the many other BS here. While I would rather not have to be here at all, at least we know where to go for support and for those who understand.....

jillyju

(((((((((KlD!!!!))))))))))))

I may be off base, but I do indeed think he is foggy. Even if he is not thinking about the OW or thinking he wants to be with her, I think he is still caught up in the "affair state of mind" .

One time I asked my H if thinks about the OW(sorry, I can't remember how long ago it was), and I was SHOCKED by his answer. He said, "No, I don't think about her. Well, not really. I don't want to be with her or see her. I just think about the fact that sometimes her supervisor yells at her and she has no recourse because she can't speak English and I feel sorry for her."

We were driving and I was so mad I almost stopped the car to punch him in the face.

I did my best to stay calm though and told him it hurt me that he had any compassion towards her at all. That she hated me and only wanted bad things for ME and that it was high time he stopped feeling ANYTHING for her at all let alone something "positive". I reminded him that she has lived in this country for more than 10 years and that she herself has said she REFUSES to learn English. I stayed calm because after all, I DID ask him.

My point to this is that this was a LONG time after D-Day. I think it was past the 6 month point anyway. I believe that my H was committed to our M at the time of this exchange and YET, in retrospect, I can see that this was his foggy thinking still at play. I believe that my H was addicted to the whole affair idea and not so much the OW. He liked(likes?) his Independent Behavior. And I consider that to still be in the fog.

I suspect your H is like this too. So much of what you say sounds familiar to me. I have felt for a LONG time that my H considers anything I say a DJ or Selfish Demand and that ANY expression of pain is an AO to him.

The problem with that is that he is wrong. I am perfectly willing to work on any LBs I have(and you are OBVIOUSLY willing to do the same), but I KNOW that not EVERYTHING I say is an LB, AO, or SD. The same with you. Sometimes, I think that you are SO willing to accept your role in all this that you greatly underplay your H's role and that he takes advantage of this.

Not long ago, I asked my H if he EVER(during the A) had considered that there would be a price to pay for it.
He said, "No, I just never thought about it. I didn't think you would ever find out".

I told him that I still don't think he thinks there is a price to pay and that I needed him to think about it. This led to a HUGE fight. But I had reached critical mass and did not care.

BUT.......things have been different since then. Not always good, but I think he has started to see that there IS a price to pay and that he EXACTED the price himself. This is not ME trying to get my pound of flesh(a phrase he has used in the past). It is the natural consequence of his destroying behavior.

Ask your husband if HE thought there would be a price to pay.

I am sorry, I have forgotten if you said your H was a Christian or not.

I reminded my H that whether I EVER found out or NOT that sin brings evil into our lives and that once he sinned we were doomed to the consequence and that the only way out of it is confession, repentance and an acceptance of the natural consequences. God is merciful and will help us build our M back again.

My only comment about your Plan B letter is that I still think YOU take too much of the blame. The letter is very loving though. I pray you don't have to use it.

You are on my mind and I am praying,
WH2LE

Jilly, thanks for your post and for keeping up with my thread. I've been keeping up with yours, too, and I'm sorry for all you're dealing with right now. I appreciate you taking the time to post to me when you've got alot of your own stuff going on.

I do believe the hatred for the OW will eventually go away - at least I hope so. I don't want to live with this forever. I do want her to be completely gone from our lives, though. If I knew she was in pain or felt true remorse for her choices, I'd feel better. I do know that she's not the kind of person to feel anything but entitlement and selfishness. She has no compassion and she's only out to get what she can get for herself at any cost. I also know that eventually she will get what's coming to her for her sin and for her choices. I also know that her life is an utter mess and she was hoping that my H would rescue her from the hell she created for herself. So far, that isn't happening. He did help her out financially for a while and I hope he's no longer doing that - there's no evidence either way.

Keep you head up and be strong. Things will get better.

One time I asked my H if thinks about the OW(sorry, I can't remember how long ago it was), and I was SHOCKED by his answer. He said, "No, I don't think about her. Well, not really. I don't want to be with her or see her. I just think about the fact that sometimes her supervisor yells at her and she has no recourse because she can't speak English and I feel sorry for her."

We were driving and I was so mad I almost stopped the car to punch him in the face.

I did my best to stay calm though and told him it hurt me that he had any compassion towards her at all. That she hated me and only wanted bad things for ME and that it was high time he stopped feeling ANYTHING for her at all let alone something "positive". I reminded him that she has lived in this country for more than 10 years and that she herself has said she REFUSES to learn English. I stayed calm because after all, I DID ask him.
This is an issue for us. H has stood up for OW in the past and taken her side over mine many times - most often before I knew of the A. This still chaps me so much! I admire your ability to take this news with grace even though his compassion for OW was disgusting. This is something I do have a problem with - taking bad news with grace.

I see what you mean about fog lasting longer than expected sometimes and each person has their own timeline. I'm glad to hear that he shows more signs of fog than just being a bad guy. I'd hate to know that I misjudged him so greatly and married someone who never had the intention of being a decent husband.

I don't know how to tackle the issue where he percieves everything I say about his A or my feelings as a DJ or LB of some sort. I do tend to try to take responsibility for my half of things and we discuss that at length sometimes. It's hard to take when for so long he was lying and cheating and desecrating our M but I get dinged constantly for expressing my feelings about his bad behavior. It's so frustrating because there's no reasoning with him about this. Sounds like you guys haven't found the way around that yet, either.

I think my H likes to be able to do as he pleases regarding certain things. When I look at the dynamic in our M, I see that he controls so much more than he realizes. He just doesn't see that he gets his way most all the time. I may be bossy, but that doesn't mean that things always go the way I want them to. I don't know how we will ever work out the financial part of our M. We both make very good salaries (finally since I have a job again) and H feels that he shouldn't have to account to me for what he spends. I don't give a hoot if he spends money for a new shirt, Starbucks twice a day, or any other thing he wants to have for himself. I only have asked that he not spend money on other people without my consent. I agree to the same set of rules and don't have a problem with it. We decide together how much money goes to our niece and 3 nephews at Christmas and on their birthdays. We help our nephew who lives here with his college expenses and we agree on how much that's to be. We also agree on how much money we spend on charities. Why is it unreasonable to expect that we not spend money on others unless we both agree? This may be one of the issues that gets sorted out later. It really hurts me alot that he was spending so much money on her and making an emotional investment along with it.

My H is a Christian, though he has drifted. He understands about sin and the consequences, however that kind of discussion doesn't really matter to him. He said the same thing your H said about the consequences - he never thought about it. I think he believes that he should be paid up by now because I've screamed at him a few times. Any talk of making ammends falls on deaf ears. He believes that by staying that is the ammends. He believes he's gone out of his way. I don't know how we will ever come to an understanding about this and I will probably never get the heartfelt apoloogy and follow through that I so long for. He always believes I'm never satisfied and that anything he does will never be enough. I honestly don't know how to tackle this one, either.

I will take another look at my Plan B letter and see what adjustmetns I can make. I hope I don't have to use it, either. I guess I'll be ready though, just in case.

KDL...

Not necessarily. My WS BOW is in pain for her choices and even WANTS to write me an apology letter... !!!!! Personally, I think that is all just part of their sick little game they have been playing with me....or at least to make HER look like the better person....

Doesn't make me any less angry or feel better. In fact if she were to so much as have ANY contact with me...I am not sure what I would do...but it would not be as neat and tidy as it was on Confrontation night.

Of course, I think if she WERE truly remorseful, she would stick to her words of promise when it came to NC......but I am going to get this out of my head. It does me no good....

Anyway, hang in ther.....this stuff sucks.....

jilly

this stuff sucks.....

Understatement of the year!!!

KLD,

I only have a minute here but I wanted to give you a few thoughts.

First, please don't let me give you the impression that I have handled any of this with grace. LOL!!! My H would tell you better. I have screamed and yelled and there has not been one day since D-day that I have not cried.

I have learned that my H absolutely DOES NOT GET IT at all if he does not see show of anger, emotion, or at least intensity from me. It doesn't mean he likes it ,but without it he thinks he's off the hook.

Part of the reason I believe your H is still enmeshed in the fog is his apparent lack of being able to show true remorse. By this I mean that he is still finding a way to blame you a bit.

Sometimes I think your H and mine might be long-lost brothers!!!!! Mine has believed that he has NO control and I have it all. If I were to tell you all the circumstances of our lives, you would find this as ludicrous as I do. But it is starting to improve a little. A little only but I am hanging to anything I see as progress.

Are you aware that calling you a witch, and saying that he doesn't think you have changed is abusive? Give me a break. I have read ALL your posts, from WAAAAAAY back and if there is anyone who is NOT a witch, KLD, it's you!!! You are compassionate, loving, empathetic and your H needs to be thanking his lucky stars that you have crossed his path.

That said, it seems that your H has a problem with empathy, much as mine does. Especially with me. Controllers lack the ability, in varying degrees, to feel empathy.

Please read Controlling People by Patricia Evans. I realize that not EVERYONE is controlling, but there are so many subtle forms of control and abuse that I think people don't always recognize it when it manifests.

Your H acts very much as though he sees you as the Dream Woman, an all-needs-meeting-mother and when you dare step out of this role, he is lost and confused and will say or do anything to pull you back into it. It is too detailed for me to explain here, but it offers some understanding as to why your efforts to meet his ENs and stop your LBs do not SEEM to be successful.

More later,
Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,

I was just reading a post from a new poster over on Emotional Needs and Loving Anyway responded to her. She addressed the issue of affair addiction and I thought this quote was relevant for you.

"... withdrawal (which isn't withdrawal from a real relationships...it's withdrawal from the drugs which were released in WH's brain...the resulting fantasy emotions...get really straight on that in YOUR brain)..."

This is exactly where I think your H may be in all this. Now that I think about it, I think I will go back and get the poster's name. Maybe there will be more relevant info. I will come back and edit this post momentarily.

P.S. Thank you to LA for the quote.

WH2LE

The post is called Too Much Information and the original poster is Limitlesslove.

Thanks for the reference to the other thread, WH2LE. I'll read it and see how I can use what's there.

Tonight has been terrible. H got home from work late and was tired after a very long day. He was withdrawn, moody, and snippy. I've really had enough of dealing with the sour attitude and inability to show me any compassion when things are bad. When he's in a good mood things are great and he is loving and fun. When he's in a bad mood, the world changes. I've tried letting it go and being happy on my own anyway, but the whole thing just makes me angry and I feel that I have no value to him.

We had another argument and again he said that he will just hand over all his money and let me tell him what to do so I can control everything like I want. I told him that this comment is highly offensive to me because he is twisting what I've said to suit his negative point of view. I told him that I want a partnership where we make important decisions together, not independently. I asked him to put himself in my shoes and imagine how it must feel to try like hell to figure out what someone wants when they won't communicate and deal with the pain and hurt caused by an A at the same time.

He had almost nothing to say about anything I said. He said he won't be moving out because he can't afford to support 2 households. I'm very close to calling my lawyer and starting the D process. I've really had enough. I don't know if he has the ability to be a decent H ever again. At one time he was a fabulous and loving H. When things got difficult, he pulled away and made some very lousy decisions.

When he did have something to say tonight it was usually about how I won't take responsibility for my part. He kept making sarcastic remarks about how everything is his fault, so let's just stone him.

I know I shouldn't move out of our house because I'm not the one who cheated, but I don't see him moving out and I can't continue like this. My commute to my new job will be a long one from here, so I'm thinking about getting a short term lease on an apartment close to the new job and see what happens in Plan B. I changed my letter a little bit to take out some of the apology stuff.

I can't stand my H right now. He is a selfish jerk and I can't believe he's turned into that. The man I married is loving, kind, and generous. Now he can hardly be civil to me. I don't get it at all.

((((KDL))))


OMG...I could have written this post a week ago. Girlfriend, I really feel for you. I don't have any advice because, well things are messy with me right now, and I'm IN Plan B, But I can tell you, that I feel for you.

I know what you mean about whether or not they can ever be decent H's again (and right now my brain is so fuddled, I wonder if he ever was....oppps...this in not about me.....lol).

ANd for weeks now, my WS kept up the "your won't take responsibility" mantra as well.

Anyway, this was really just to let you know that when they say they are all the same and say the same things, it must be true, because if I didn't know any better, it sounds like we have the same WS.

So, hang tight, wait for some advice and follow it. I know this stuff sucks,....but I have to say I would be better not having ever known this either.....

Hang in there honey.......I'm rooting for you....

jj

I'm so sorry. I think he's just buried himself so deep he doesn't see a way out except for being defensive about everything. Doesn't help you any, but that's what it seems like.

One thought: if you do leave, that doesn't necessarily mean your R is over. It actually might be the break you need for him to have time to get over being defensive and to start missing you. And it might help you refocus on things other than the A. But it might help you both decide you really miss each other and are willing to work on it.

good post cat.....(even though it wasn't meant for me.... ;)). This is where I am at right now. Not sure if WS gets it, but not my problem.

KDL....

Cat gave you some good food for thought. Think it over and keep yuour chin up....

jj

KLD, congratulations on your new job! I'm sorry to hear how things have been with H. But I know your life is SO much bigger than what he's reflecting back to you. I heard your defensiveness, the trying to explain why you're not controlling about the money and all that, and I'm thinking, that's not your job to fix his perception. You've shared your O&H, and that's where your ability and responsibility ends. Not advice, just a thought.

I hear you about when he's happy, everything's good, and when he's sour, it just ruins it for you. I am so like that, too. I am grateful to have friends here and IRL and spiritual connection that I can borrow happiness from until I find it again. What do you do to feel good? How's your health doing, hon?

That's disappointing to hear that he thinks that simply him staying is amends. Is he familiar with "Just Compensation" and the protection that you need? Are you all still working with Jennifer, or doing the Recovery work on your own? Are you all getting some RC in?

My heart is breaking as I imagine your H saying those things to you.

My H has said so many of the same things.

You might remind him that the fact that the two of you are still married is NOT because HE was generous enough to continue to grace you with HIS presence. IT is purely because YOU HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO STAY DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU AMPLE GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE.

Awhile back, I remember thinking(can't remember if I actually wrote it or not) that a big hunk of your H's problem is that he STILL thinks that it is up to HIM if you stay married or not. IT IS NOT!!!!!!! It is completely and totally up to you KLD!!!! You are giving HIM the chance, not the other way around.

He can't afford two households huh???? Tough!! Sounds like he was doing a pretty good job of paying the OW's bills. I think he can afford whatever he wants to afford. He is still sitting on the fence and wants it both ways, HIS WAY.

That said, I have a touchy subject to broach. Have you considered the serious possibility that he is still(or again) in contact? I can not tell you how much I hate to suggest it.

He acts like he is angry because he can't have the kind of contact he WANTS to have. He knows that if he uses ANY money to see her that YOU will find out about it. And it seems to me that he is trying to shame you into giving him some freedom. Fog and the new habit of bad behavior.

I just suggested Psalm 35 to Mimi on her new thread, Bold Love. I am suggesting to you and as soon as I am done posting, I am going to pray it out loud for you.

I am realizing that sometimes we BSs don't want to pray AGAINST the bad things that the OPs want in our lives. Well, the heck with that. I'm doing it!!!! For you, for me, for everyone out there.

We all here are going to be supportive of you KLD, whether you stay or go.

Praying(right now),
WH2LE

EO - thank you so much for your post. Every time you post to me, it brings me back to what I need to do for me so that I don't get lost. I know that your perspective is real because you've been here and you struggle with some of the same things. It helps to hear what has worked for you and your questions do make me think and remember.

I'm not talking to Jennifer any more - at least not right now. H really didn't want to participate and it wasn't doing much good without him. Also, it was getting really expensive and with me not working it seemed like a better idea to work through things on our own for a while.

I do tend to feel like I need to explain things to H. Part of the reason I feel the need to do that is that he so often has so little to say. The times he says the most is when he is angry or annoyed and what he says then only makes me anxious and brings my confidence level way down. In calmer times, I remember that he is responsible for his perceptions.

I am doing very well healthwise these days. The IV drug therapy is working and I'm thankful that it's available to me. I have the infusion every 8 weeks and so far, it's going very well. Thank you so much for asking about that.

I really think he feels much more guilt than I realize. He doesn't share his deepest feelings - especially those that are negative or deal with his weaknesses. Because of this, I don't see or hear the things I need to hear regarding his A and how he feels about it. I have told him I need him to protect me, I just don't think he knows how to do it. Those conversations about how I'd like him to protect me (and similar ones) are the ones he feels are bossy and controlling. We definitely need a way to talk about this that meets both of our needs. Sadly, he won't read anything or listen to cds or anything that would be informational about how to deal with this.

WH2LE - thanks for being there for me yet again. I have considered that possibly there is contact with OW again. I've done as much snooping as I can and come up with no evidence. The only way I know to get that evidence is to find a secret phone, but I know he will keep it at work. I know he hasn't seen her. For one thing, she lives too far away for this to be an easy thing to accomplish. She also has an elementary aged child that she has no help with. Her mother isn't really able to keep her and the child's father isn't in the picture at all. I don't think she has any friends. So, the bottom line is that H would have to drive to see her instead of her coming to him. He hasn't done that - he's been at work every day (verified) and he's been with me on weekends. The only contact would be email and/or phone. I know there's no contact at night because we're usually together all night every night.

Anyway, I'm going to keep trying to find out and hope my snooping shows that he's staying away from her.

We did talk instead of fight today. He said that he says things when he's angry that he doesn't mean. He said he knows that he's lucky that I'm still here. He doesn't know why he's having a hard time getting off the fence. I told him that I feel that there's a very thin margin of error for me and that because he doesn't know what he wants I feel that any mis-step on my part by his "rules" mean that he will dump our M. He said that's not how it is and he wants me to know that he really doesn't feel that way. So, I told him that I don't want any more talk of D and that I'd like to proceed as if we are going to stay M'd and that we will figure things out to be happy again. He didn't have alot to say about that, but he did agree to that approach. I realize that this can be a boundary for me and an easy one to enforce.

Yesterday, he asked me to go car shopping with him. This is something he really enjoys doing and so I was okay with going along. I was still so angry and hurt with him, but I didn't bring it up at all the whole day. He took me to dinner. We actually eventually got to the point where we were enjoying the day together.

For now, I'm waiting to see what happens next. We are planning to discuss things again later this week. I don't know if our talks are all that productive, but I know we can't ignore things. My goal is to find a different way to approach our discussions so that we may be able to end up with a better result.

Cat, I've thought about this angle, too, and I think it may end up being an option for me. It's not what I want, but I may go there. I actually did another Plan B letter that could work if we do separate. I'm avoiding a separation right now if possible because I do think there's no contact and I don't want to give him freedom to travel to see her. It definitely may come to that and maybe my logic of being a barrier to freedom is false comfort.

I do have to say that I had a fantasy this weekend of being able to not deal with him and do my own thing in my own space. I do love being with him, but when he's being a jerk I'd much rather not be around.

And on a completely different topic - I'm all ready for my new job tomorrow. I'm going to look great and have a great attitude, too! I bought some new clothes this week and I'm going to be the best dressed Resource Planning Manager that place as ever seen!!!

Sounds good! Hope your first day at work is amazing!

I submit that we still don't know what will happen.

Recovery often goes this way.

Many have said that recovery is worse than getting the A to end. You can probably see why.

One real danger is that YOU won't want him. This often happens just about the time that the WS finally makes a decision and commits.

I hope your new job goes well. I hope the people are nice to work with, and that you enjoy it. Or.... (work being what it is) that it doesn't drive you crazy.

Of course we will all want to know how it went today.

SS

KLD,

Dying to hear about your day today. Were they absolutely blown away with your wonderfulness?

My H tells me the same thing, that he says things when he is angry that he doesn't mean. I tell him now that it's too bad he does that because THOSE are the things I remember and they outshine his kind remarks.

Praying and looking forward to hearing how your day went.

By the way, I was thinking last night how proud you should be of yourself. great new job afyter being laid off for ONLY 3 months AND doing it all whil trying to recover from an A AND experiencing another D-Day in the midst of it.

You go girl!!

WH2LE