Good thing I didn't drive by. DD12 just called him, and he called back. They would up going to another place instead, and he sounds really loaded. H thought it was odd I asked him where he was going, maybe he thinks I'm trying to get him caught on DUI. So much for not drinking while on antibiotics. Not my choice to own. I am surprised this is getting me down, I was doing well with the detachment. Those sneaky expectations. Not trying to go on complaining, just thought I shouldn't not say anything.

Edited to add: H called back, said that I sounded mad, and asked if I was mad. I felt safe to be O&H, so I said, you know, I'm concerned thinking that maybe you're not with Buddy. He asked if I would feel better talking to him, and I said I would. He walked back to the table, put his friend on the phone, and we spoke briefly. It didn't come off as odd, more as concern and to let his friend know we're pulling for him in this tough situation he's in. I think this was a good lesson for me in asking for what I need.

Yes, I agree, one way or another it's worth finding out the truth. This is just wearing away at you. Better to know.

Jayne, you're right. Tonight, I took my own advice about self-care and finding joy and read some stories with DD7, shined my kitchen sink even though the cleaning lady's coming tomorrow, made some hot tea and made plans to see my sister this weekend.

I'm glad to hear you're practicing self-care, and enjoying time with DD7. The past two evenings I've been spending time with DS's, that I haven't done almost all semester. I feel like I have to learn how to release the tension and worry so I can truly enjoy my kids.

I'm glad you shined your sink and made hot tea too! Hey, thanks for the idea... I'll go do the same.

*hug*

Thanks for the hug. H came home with a huge AO about me asking if he was with his friend. Throwing things, making threats of who he is going to call to embarass me, insults about my weight.

It really helped me process through what cat said earlier. Instead of reacting in the moment, I felt like an observer, after all my reactivity earlier in the evening. I observed how his anger and dissapproval sparked defensiveness and self-doubt in me. I considered listening and repeating, but it was midnight and I didn't trust that I'd be able to do that calmly without letting his stuff in.

I said calmly, I'm not going to sit here for this. I wasn't going to make a big deal about it, but I was planning in my head to go to the car, because H won't make a fuss in front of the neighbors, so that was somewhere I could go for safety. But when I said that, he caught himself, and went downstairs.

Going through Stosny's HEALS process, I asked myself, what can I do to Improve, Connect, Appreciate, or Protect? I remembered getting that angry, having those AOs, feeling distant and diminished and disrespected. I looked at what H said, too, and there were little grains of truth in there, but all things that I have been addressing successfully, so I actually felt good about my actions instead of defensive. I understand that it takes some time to let go of past hurts and see that your partner is changing.

I'm hoping that we can really make some progress Saturday with the new MC.

I am thinking that maybe it's not so healthy for me where I'm at to do the tape recorder thing. I have had a lot of bad gut feelings, but no way to dstinguish between whether that's about past infidelity or just other IB. I talked ot my sponsor, and she agreed with my read on that. I already know that we have big obstacle in our marriage that he's been unwilling to POJA about and I haven't gotten withdrawn enough from to move to Plan B as yet.

I'm going to give this MC a shot and stick to my plan of working to balance loving detachment with O&H and asking for what I need.

How do you know when you're posting too often

My sponsor has said this to me before, that alcoholism is a cunning, baffling disease. That I'm going to feel that something is wrong in my gut, because there is, and that other folks may well pick up on this as well. To trust that if there is something that I need to be aware of, that I will become aware of it when I'm ready, evidence or not.

I trust you to know what you are ready for, for example if you think it wouldn't be healthy to do the voice recorder.

Earlier I missed the part where H called back and let you talk to his buddy. That's something. Too bad he came home with an AO. Was he drunk? Did he drive? You may have a point that he's afraid to tell you where he's going because of his drinking rather than an A.

I agree. My guess is he knows what triggers you and, like a 5 year old, tries to get out of being in the hot seat. Many people when feeling embarrassed or ashamed take the offensive so they don't have to admit it.

He did look and sound drunk to me, and drove home. We had lunch today, and he said he doesn't know why I always have to say something when he goes out. That he's always done that, and always will. I told him that I am going to keep honest that this is a love buster for me, every time.

I know it's not about me, but to be honest, I don't want that in my life. I have friends like that, and I'm not judging them, I respect their choices. But I don't enjoy that as part of my life, and though I'm working on the detachment, I do worry when he's out late drinking. If he hurt someone driving or got a DUI or comes home vomiting again, that does affect me.

I told H I have concerns about DD12 being out in CA with him. My concerns are that he would have a few and then drive her home from dinner, or that he'd leave her in an apartment out there alone to go out. He said that we'll address them this weekend, set some ground rules. I am glad that he is willing to discuss this. I told him that I think he believes that he controls his drinking, but I don't believe that he does. We cut it short to talk about happier stuff, but I don't think he can earn my trust that he has control of his drinking enough to have DD12 out there with him in such a short time.

DD12 wants us to let her stay on at the manager's house, as she has other kids board there and we know the moms staying there watching the kids, so that is another possibility.

Just a thought, and you've probably already tried this but...

Maybe you could POJA something like, if he goes out and drinks more than, I dunno, two drinks over 2 hours? then he will call you and you'll pick him up when he's ready? If you only have one car then that means you drop him off or he rides with buddies up to that point.

I'm thinking along the lines of what I've heard ppl doing with teenagers - they are absolutely safe to call at any hour for a pick-up no matter how drunk they are, with no lectures - or else they might not call.

Jayne, when I was enthusiastic about it, I did a lot of driving him, but it got to the point that I realized I was enabling, making it easier and removing the natural consequences. Thnaks for the idea, though.

Ah I hadn't thought of it as enabling. I wondered if there would be a difference since it is a spouse not a teenager. I guess that's the difference.

You are right, he's an adult and it isn't good for you to "mother" him.

H's deal with his current consulting group here is that they will let him work from SoCal if he agrees to two additional weeks of business travel to MD in June. H is ready to book his flights. Out to MD the week of June 2. Back the following week. Then out to CA with DD12 June 15, then leave DD12 with the manager (she does a boarding thing with other moms and their kids and kids without their families) the week of the 22nd. The he wants me and DD7 to meet them in CA the following week, with the 4th of July Holiday. Then he and DD12 to stay until the end of July.

I told him that I don't want him to go. That even if he gets the job offer he wants out there, I don't want to move out there with the kids until I feel like our marriage is more stable. Specifically, I want Rule Of Protection, that we don't gain at the other's expense. I told him that I don't want him to take DD12, either, and described my concerns - drinking and driving with DD12, and leaving DD12 alone at an apartment out there so he can go out. He says he will address these concerns.

I feel very detached. Calm, not angry. Like an observer. But it feels a lot like depression, that teenager-like "I don't care, you're going to do what you want anyway." I think I should be really standing up, fighting for my marriage here, but I'm not sure what that looks like.

I'm looking at this with the Serenity prayer. This isn't my decision to make, whether H books these flights or not. Whether he goes or not.

I do have some control and responsibility over whether DD12 goes. What a painful thing to do to a kid, though, to tell her that she can't go with her dad, and her dad telling her to go. I want to get to a united front, but I don't have the power to create that on my own.

I don't see any options that I like. I think that's where my backing off is coming from.

What I'm seeing is H's SD...

You aren't and have not been enthusiastic about living SoCal...and you even spent last summer understanding that you are far from enthusiastic about it...

because of costs...

and you weighed those against DDs' desires to be in the business...

And you believe your marriage suffered out there...or that it suffered because H did not get gainful employment there?

You aren't enthusiastic about sacrificing your marriage for your DDs' wishes...for children will wish for stuff that can destroy a marriage...that's why they are kids...

You aren't enthusiastic about H travelling...because he's not transparent, or consistently transparent...and he has talked about ending the marriage over the course of this last year, off and on...and this separation (where he's doing the work at a remote location with the same company (essentially) and leaving his family...then dividing his family).

Have I got this recapped? Not your choices...not POJA'd...his truly unspecified haunting desire to live in SoCal...has plagued your marriage for years...as if a fresh start geographically will heal him inside, for good, make life smooth...and as often is the case in our search for relief, we bypass redemption...and continue to reinjure.

Ain't humans grand?

Up to you to learn and know...find out your parental rights...see if H making this choice can be seen as desertion/abandonment...even possible child endangerment...where DD12 staying home with you this summer, going to auditions for local bookings is the goal...call a lawyer. Temporary order maybe to get in place, if necessary, before DD12 leaves...not H.

Good to know before H books unrefundable tickets...easy to ask him not to book hers yet because you are not in agreement with her going...

Have you decided to not put the girls ahead of your marriage, btw? Not their "careers" either?

Just wondered...wasn't in your position...I can't know...just know the basics...don't do that which you will resent (even a tad)...don't put the kids as a priority of your marriage...and knowledge is key to clarity and informed decisions.

Happily in your corner,

LA

LA, thanks for being here. I am trying hard to choose my attitude, and that gets so much easier spending time friends who have got that attitude, that perspective, to share.

This isn't about DD12's career. We don't even have her signed up locally right now, haven't followed through. Her head isn't there, either, didn't even ask us to sign her up with an agency locally, or even for acting classes. Because she started middle school this year, and during the school year, her focus is on her studies. The acting camp is a fun diversion to her. She doesn't view this as her career.

I believe that our marriage suffered there. I haven't identified why, I think because H felt cramped in a lousy neighborhood.

I'm not enthusiastic about H travelling, because he has not been consistently transparent. I am working towards that, but I don't see that happening in two weeks, when transparency isn't his goal.

I have asked H not to book DD12's ticket. Thanks for pointing that out about something I CAN do, getting more information.

Thanks for the validation, sometimes I wonder if am still overreactive, then come to realize that I'm not responding enough/appropriately.

I'm scared to go home. Afraid if H decides not to go, then I'll pay for it in some vague, threatening, unspecified way. I feel like a kid who knows the punishment is coming, but doesn't know what it is.

I'm working to turn that around in my head, to remember that I'm secure, that this is my H who keeps me safe and loved. And that beyond that, I am SO not alone. Thanks for your presence!

(((LA)))) I'm not asking for your update not because I am not interested, because you know I am, but because you'll know when you are ready to share.

Your H protects your marriage...you are already safe.

If you expect punishment, you will experience it. You know I know that from experience.

He chooses, you choose. Only he can choose transparency.

Reminder.

Breathe...relax...and check yourself...re-center. Fear is a spinner...know when you're spinning.



Reality is that your partner can choose to put anything ahead of the marriage...you know that from years before MB...we both know how justification from resentment was ahead of our marriages at times...

A choice, not a judgment of you. His choices are about him. You are supporting healthy choices for your marriage above supporting him in his unhealthy choice for your marriage.

There will be a time for SoCal...after years of stability, O&H, transparency, intimacy...sounds to me that's been your goal for a long time.

So act from your own goal...act intimate, act lovingly...you remember. So then you will know you are loved, you are safe, you are you.

Could you still be fearing your own reactivity because you focus again on the outcome, not your code?

Good to know my assumptions about DD12 aren't just that...my own assumptions. Ack. Sorry 'bout that. How does DD12 feel about going to SoCal with her sister to stay with Dad this summer?

Your fear is really old...from all those days before you were an adult when you would be punished...unfairly...not lovingly...you remember. Your H cannot really punish you. He chooses his actions...you choose yours. Healthy boundary enforcements...predetermined...your responsibility.

Separating his stuff from yours...his choices really are about him...not you doing. Respect that he chooses.

All reminders...because in my experience, fear wipes out our brain and instincts kick in...not unreasonable to go backward in time...fear punishment...because it was out of our control then...not now.

We are our own safety as well as biggest threat...we just don't see it that way automatically...

Welcome to your appreciation...right back at you. You know that I won't be updating here...and thank you for reminding me that your inquiring mind wants to know, anyway.

LA

Wow, ears, that's such a hard place to be in. I think you and I are both from the time when the H's career dictated what the family did. Even if it was just a memory of childhood. So it's hard to shake that subconscious feeling of needing to support him. I get the sense that your H is kind of like those men from the tv show "Mad Men". Where the men ruled, the women were pretty and served the men.

I just admire you so much for being honest about not wanting to go. I would say one thing, though. Maybe I've forgotten, but you say you don't want to go because you weren't happy there before. That maybe it was just because H didn't like the neighborhood. And we all know you can barely afford a closet in SoCal. So you're afraid the same situation will occur? Or will it get worse because your marriage is rockier, or because you're now being more honest about your own needs, or because he's drinking more?

I ask because you seem to have a vague concern about moving, but if you can't really spread it out and look at it and identify the real fear, you can't do anything about it. Can't determine if it's valid, can't even address it to find a solution that both of you can live with. Does that make sense?

I only ask because I worry that this would be the one thing that could become a dealbreaker, either for you or for your H. Best to really take a look at it, ya know?

Thanks LA, Cat, for your posts. I got in late from a meeting, but I wanted to let you know that I read and appreciate your posts and will be back in the morning to respond with both eyes open