I second the advice about listening to Mel. She walked me through Plan A, and helped me prepare for Plan B, and has helped us in recovery. She was here DAILY for me. She will not lead you astray, although at times, you may wonder.

Mark, I would absolutely LOVE to hear your Scriptural references for Plan A and B. I have my own, but would love to learn more from yours. I have read many of your discussions with Queenie; and I respect you.

Thank you for the encouragement. I have been working on some questions, getting to know you type and just small talk, a little deeper.
He has said that we don't talk and share and communicate anymore, so I thought that we could just sit on the porch swing and talk after the kids are in bed for a little quality time.

Some things that I thought of were:
*How is work? What jobs have you been doing lately? Is it going better for you, are you adjusting better to being back in installations?
*Where do you see yourself in 5 years?
*You've mentioned that you cannot forgive yourself, I was just wondering what forgiveness looks like and means to you?

I really stink at this, I think because I don't know who he is because he has become this "ugly alien" inhabiting my once kind, compassionate, loving husband,so any suggestions on other things that are "safe" to talk about.

I have been praying about it and I know that you are all right about the fantasy and living and planning in reality, but it is very hard, not that I am trying to use that as a crutch or copout, because I am committed to doing my best at working the plan. I just really want the evening to be pleasant and him to enjoy the evening and relax, not be so defensive, and enjoy being with his children and I, but truly I am nervous, I want to protect my heart, but yet be tender and kind and show him that I am committed to our marriage. Sometimes a fast forward button for life could be a nice feature!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, SS!


This is a good subject. I would ask OPEN ENDED questions, though, to get him talking. If you say "how is work" he will just reply "fine" and that is the end of your conversation. Instead ask him an open ended question that will get him talking:

"so what is going on at work lately?"



doesn't sound sincere and could get you into trouble if he responds with something hurtful. Don't go there.


don't even go there. His comment was FOG TALK and you bring this up, you will get more FOG.

What TV shows does he like? What about you? If he likes TV, then bring up some recent TV episodes or bring up a good movie you liked that he likes.

kb, what is he GOOD AT? Is he good at fixing things? Look for opportunities to ask his advice about a home repair, if so.

Yes, he is very handy and good at fixing things, but he has expressed that that is all I ever asked was for him to do something around the house, and he never got an opportunity to just relax and play. So, I was afraid to ask him to work on or fix something. What do you think?

Talk about what the kids have been up to.

Bring up a really good "remember when" memory you share.

One of my best Plan A moments was when I invited FWS over and we played badmitten with the kids. Our family always has a great time playing together. I flirted quite a bit during that game. BUT my body was shaking inside. I had lost so much weight and was so weak. But I pulled it off.

It's all a matter of your mental frame of mind. STAY FOCUSED on your plan, no matter what he says.

If he spews hurtful fog speak, stay focused on your goal to not feed into that. It's OK to just look at him and not respond. It's OK to just smile. It's OK to just touch his arm and nod.

If he spews "I want to come home" babble...remember that's what it is right now...babble with no action. STAY FOCUSED on your plan and REMEMBER YOU ARE TALKING TO AN ALIEN.

I remember my FWS one day saying he wanted to come home. I could FEEL my husband back. But a few days later I asked him what coming home looked like for him. His response was cold and the alien was obviously back.

You may get glimpses of your husband every now and then, but EXPECT them to be fleeting; EXPECT the alien to reappear...and stay focused on your Plan A...making home feel like a welcoming place to be and allowing him to see improvements you are making in yourself. (keeping the house in order, preparing nice meals, keeping the kids school on track, making sure you look attractive, handling the finances (I don't mean earn the income; I mean proving that you can take care of paying the bills on time--as long as he is providing the income he should be providing), making a joyful home for you and the children, flirting without behaving desperate, etc.

Just keep the talk on light things that have nothing to do with your relationship, his spiritual walk, or anything that might lead to you triggering or love busting (are you familiar with love busters?)

I think you are understanding Plan A.

If he was complaining about your expectation to work around the house, then make these times about relaxing and playing.

Are there any games you two used to play together.

My FWS and I used to play backgammon all the time when we dated. That would have been a good Plan A thing, but I didn't think of it then.

Are there any games the two of you enjoy that you could pull out after the kids are tucked in (if he stays that long)?

I am hoping that the weather will hold out and it will stay nice, it is supposed to rain all afternoon/night. The kids love to play outside and that would be best. If we are inside then they are going to want to veg and watch tv or play video games, and that excludes some then.

We haven't dated in so long I know this is going to sound silly, but what constitutes flirting? I don't know what the rules/boundaries are?

My FWH had a an EN for admiration that I had unintentionially neglected for a long time. Be sure that you are genuine but try to find something to admire about him. (Often hard when he has been such a jerk) I will never forget the first time after D-day that I told my FWH that he still had the bluest eyes and longest lashes i have ever seen. The sheer gratitude on his face brought tears to my eyes. I have followed up many times since then with "I do love your eyes!" You can bet that is the type of thing that OW is saying.

Think back to what first attracted you to him and tell him if you get the opportunity. Do some "Remember when we..." Lay out some pictures of happier times. Don't bring them up your self but if he comments, tell him you are trying gto organize them or scrapbook or whatever. You won his heart once. Inside, you are the same girl he fell in love with. Show him that.

I will keep you in my prayers.

Say

SunflowerSmile,

I'd be happy to discuss why I think MB is biblically based, but we should probably do so on another thread.

/tj

Mark

I so hope you do that, Mark, I would love to see your analysis. And I will even tell you what Dr. Harley told me about that.

Well, the visit tonight was WONDERFUL! The children were well behaved and enjoyed playing a board game and the weather held, so we all were out playing in the driveway on scooters. WH didn't raise his voice at all, he had an extremely hard time leaving tonight and even said that he wanted to stay, but knows that is not possible.
I would give myself a C on the Plan A. WH left in tears holding my hand and pulled reluctantly away, but we had one rocky moment, he wanted to discuss bills and see if there was any way I could pay some of his credit cards out of my support money, since he is paying me his entire paycheck currently. He said he has applied for a second job, but is having a hard time finding one that will work around his full time schedule. Things with the OW are unstable also, she was fired finally from the place that they both worked, so there is no income coming in there, adn she is getting frustrated that all of his income is coming to me. Well, he is MY H!!!
He is planning on coming to our daughter's brownie award banquet on Sunday, so we will have another opportunity then. He said that he had a really nice time tonight. He was very fixated on repeating that he is an A****** and that he is not worth anything, and that he cannot understand why I would want any contact with him or attempt at reconciliation. I just kept reassuring him that I am 100% committed to our marriage and that he is very worth it and told him some of his positive qualities that I love/admire about him.
Well, I am exhausted, so I am going to get some sleep. He asked me to call him tomorrow and touch base and let him know how the children are doing. Speaking of I am so proud of them! They did fabulously, daughter struggled, but calmly came to me and prayed it through instead of self hurting behaviors of scratching and hurting herself!!! YEAH, progress is great. I am so thankful for my kids and God's protection of us!
So what next?

klb - I'm very glad to hear that things went well with the visit.

A couple of "things" for you to think about and decide if they might have application to your husband:



Of course it's "impossible" while he remains willingly in an affair. He's "feeling" the "cost" of his choices, and that is precisely what both you and God WANT him to feel. It helps to break the "fantasy" of sin, that disobedience to God DOES have consequences.

However, that's for YOU to know at this time.

But when he makes such a statement, why not just calmly ask him WHY he "knows that is not possible." What makes him think that it's not possible, can people and circumstances NOT change, can God NOT "create a new heart within someone?"




This is a "glimpse" inside the mind of a WS. He is very likely beginning to "accept" that his infidelity is WRONG but is feeling trapped and guilty. He is likely "projecting" HIS OWN feelings of what HE would be unlikely to do if YOU were the one having an affair. That's more of the same that we've all heard or said ourselves, i.e. "if you ever cheat on me I'm outta here!"

I said it, my wife said it....but when the ACTUALITY of an affair presented itself, then the BS has to CHOOSE. The affair itself is a "crisis," and is no less a "crisis of faith" than it is as a "crisis of the Marriage and the Vows" that each of you took individually. YOU have chose to honor your vows and your walk with God, even though faced with the extreme of "for worse" and "in sickness"(of mind).

So when he says this sort of thing, consider explaining two things to him:

1. You BELIEVE and MEANT your Wedding Vows to him, "until death do you part," not until some self-centered tramp tries to break your covenant with God, and

2. Forgiveness and restoration comes FROM God because: "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." God didn't wait for us to "save ourselves," He GAVE us forgiveness and restoration of relationship THROUGH Jesus, and Jesus laid down (no one took it from Him) His human life FOR us while we were "not worthy and hopelessly lost in sin."

Given that, shall we do less for a repentant sinner who "comes home?"

It's NOT that adultery doesn't hurt, it DOES. It hurts more than almost anything you can experience. Jesus suffered too.

It's NOT that there are no consequences for sin, forgiveness of the sin does not "magically erase all consequences." But Jesus paid the "ultimate price" for all sin FOR us, so that we don't "have to," and HE gave us FORGIVENESS of Sin in the only way that IS acceptable to God.

Just as Peter took his eyes off of Jesus and began to sink into the "world's water," so has your husband taken his eyes off of Jesus and is sinking into the quicksand of adultery. But there IS "one way out." Just as there was one way out for Peter. Jesus reaches down and takes our hand....but we have to choose to not fight Him, to accept the offered hand....and let Him lead us back to the safety of the "family of God boat."

Give your children a warm and tender hug. You don't have to say anything to them. Thank God for using ALL of the circumstances in your life to "work for good for those who love Him."


"was very fixated on repeating that he is an A******

Yep, he is. Now what was it that Jesus said to the woman who was brought before Him on a charge of adultery? Oh ya, "Woman, where are your accusers(those who thought that they had a 'more righteous' standing with God until Jesus mentioned ONE sin in their own life was enough to condemn them before God)" She WAS an adulteress standing before the mercy of God. "Neither do I condemn you, go and LEAVE your life of sin."

For the BS's, we also need to remind ourselves of the parable of the Unmerciful Servant, as we are all forgiven servants of the only true Lord and Master.


God bless.

That first experience of plan Aing a WH who has betrayed his vows and your trust is a perfect example of how Christ loves us and how he wants us to love other people. It is easy to show love to a loving spouse. That in a nutshell to me is how MB is Biblically based.

Good job,
Say

Thank you ForeverHers and SayNoMore,
Your response FH was exactly where he led the conversation and I said a lot of what you said in your post. I cried a little when he began to cry, but I just kept saying that he is so worth it, and we are worth it. I reiterated that I am wholly committed to him and our marriage.
When he said this I did ask why he thinks this and he said that it was because he was such an A***** and that he is not worthy of forgiveness, and he can't change what he has done. I explained that no one expects him to change what he has done, but it is what he does now moving forward that makes the difference. He said that right now he doesn't know what to think of God, because he has been praying and God hasn't been answering, or he has been bringing more problems into his life, financial, physical, emotional. I then explained to him that God wants very much to have a relationship with him, but if he does not go to God and confess that he knows what he did/is doing is sin and that he is truly sorry for it and wants to do the right thing, but doesn't know what it is? That he is tying God's hands. He cannot help you because you are continuing to sin and not repent.
He asked me to call today. Should I do that and just thank him for a great evening and say that we are looking forward to seeing him on Sunday? How often should I reach out to him? Should I e-mail him as I am thinking of him and just continue to reaffirm and reassure him of my love and committment? I also think that Plan A with him now is going to require a little longer than the originally planned 10 days. I was thinking more along the lines of till maybe June 1st and then we would be Plan B completely dark for almost 6 weeks till our support hearing on July 18th. I am thinking as he is finally beginning to look at me again and feel anything, I just don't know what do you all think? I guess I am afraid that if I go to Plan B too quickly now that it will push him further away and not see it as loving him, but a rejection again?

Yes, definitely call. And do both. The "lines of communication" are open as a result of your evening with him.

Don't "slam the door" on him while he is "open," even though you may well be feeling pain and hurt. Think of it as you would with anyone who is sinning and in need of GOD's forgiveness. Without God's forgiveness the forgiveness that any of us gives someone does not get at the "root" of the problem, rebellion against God.




As often as you'd like without giving him a "normal wayward spouse feeling" of "being smothered." It's not easy, especially when you see some response(s) that you've been praying and hoping for. Fight the urge to "barge in" with the "full load." No "elephant" is eaten at one meal...it is accomplished "one bite at a time, for as long as it takes." Remember the key thought here is: in God's timing, not ours.




Yes, if you want to. But keep it short and not gushy, pushy, or begging, if you know what I mean.




Stay in Plan A as long as you are seeing some response. It's a PROCESS, klb, it does not happen "overnight."




You will KNOW if, and when, a Plan B is needed. Until then, stay with Plan A. Do NOT "plan" to use Plan B as a way to "manipulate" him. Plan B IS an "ultimatum" as well as a way to preserve your love for him while a wayward spouse is showing no remorse or willingness to "consider things."




Plan B WILL end in either an end to the affair or in a divorce.

It IS an ultimatum that says, "You've crossed MY boundaries and I won't allow it to go without a consequence. WHAT that consequence will be is now up to you and I will react accordingly."

Ultimatus are VERY dangerous and only should be given when YOU are ready for NOT getting the response you might be hoping for.


You did a very good job of "loving him with the truth." Now that the "seed" has been planted, God will water it and make it grow. I just planted some grass seed in my backyard....and waiting for the seed to begin to sprout and grow SEEMS agonizingly slow. Do what you can, but rest in God and know that He knows what is needed and when it is needed.

God bless.

Thank you! I think I am beginning to finally understand.
[quoteYou did a very good job of "loving him with the truth." Now that the "seed" has been planted, God will water it and make it grow. I just planted some grass seed in my backyard....and waiting for the seed to begin to sprout and grow SEEMS agonizingly slow. Do what you can, but rest in God and know that He knows what is needed and when it is needed.
] [/quote]
Patience has never been a strong virtue of mine, but I can see now that I will definitely be better/stronger in this area.
I have been trying to figure out what my love busters are and learn how to NOT use these and just be more kind and considerate of the things that best show love to my WH.
Thank you!

It sounds like you handled yourself very well. Good job!




Since you are in Plan A, contact him often. If he asks you to call, call. Email and text him often...lighthearted conversations. Ask how his day is going. Tell him something you remember about him...admiration is often a high need for men. So ADMIRE him...

Short, sweet conversations are really good.

Try to avoid relationship talk, unless he brings it up, and still then, walk the conversation carefully.





Hopefully, he will continue to be receptive to Plan A. But don't be surprised if he all of a sudden becomes a complete a$$ again and you feel 10 days is too long.

See how this weekend goes and post here about it.

Also, he is still cake-eating. He is likely to enjoy you filling some ENs and OW filling some ENs. That's just part of the stage you are at right now. Work your plan, and be prepared for the fog speak at any given moment.

Also, start thinking about who could be your intermediary during Plan B. This is someone who will filter information so that you have NO contact with WS. Hopefully, this person would be willing to come here and learn more about Plan B. Any ideas?

Well, the phone call was a disaster! I called to thank him for a great time last night and did that and said that I was looking forward to seeing him again on Sunday at our daughter's brownie award banquet. Then it all went downhill! He started trash talking again and instead of changing the subject I slid the whole way down the hill, and self blamed and cried, saying you know the usual, that if I had been a better wife, prettier, more loving blah blah blah..... Way to go dummy! I just get so tired of hearing all his self blather that I get down on myself and turn it around because I am still struggling with me! Everytime I look in the mirror Satan attacks and says see you ugly fat pig, what did you expect him to do! I have been trying to work on my self talk, but I am so stinking EXHAUSTED!!! I have not had a real break of any kind from my kids in 3 months! My parents are afraid to take them, because they are getting older and my kids are a handful at least the boys are...
My voluntary support has gone down and is erratic when it gets deposited, and I am so afraid of not having enough to pay the bills that I feel bad for the kids because our life has changed so dramatically. We used to take them to Philadelphia at least once a month to go to the museums or the mall or something, or we would go out to eat every Friday night, we would take them to community events for kite-flying and different things, and now that he is gone and we don't have a car yet. All those things have stopped, and I am trying to enjoy them and play games and have fun with them, but I am so tired and sad. I miss my best friend and companion!!! I am so angry at this despicable alien thing that has invaded my husband and our life.
He keeps saying that I think it is so good for him over there and I just don't know or understand, well, no I don't know or understand and quite frankly I really don't care, I hope they are sufferring in EVERY imaginable way!!! He has no idea what his wife and three small children are sufferring and he is so darn selfish that he can't see anything but what he wants and I get so sick of hearing about it!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Okay, I feel better now that I spewed all that out. I want to e-mail and say something to change the way the phone call went, but I don't feel that I should keep apologizing for hurting and feeling sad. I love him and I believe that he is worth it and that the pain will all be worth it because it is the refiner's fire and my hearts desire is to be made holy. Just as the song says, I just need to figure out how to get out of the sadness and into the joy and hope of the results. Such a hard thing in the midst of such pain, but it is the hope that I am clinging to is that when I get to the other side of this dark valley that the me on the other side will be whole and happy and have good self-worth and love and respect for me and be able to look in the mirror and believe what the Psalmist says that I was knit in my mothers womb and he knew and loved me then and that he made me perfectly for his purpose and that he will never leave or forsake me..... Sometimes I wish I could tattoo some of these things on me so that I will see them always, but 1) I don't like needles and 2) I know God doesn't want me to mark my body so post its and index cards have become my best friends..... I must run for now, my parents are coming for dinner, so I must finish up.... Love and prayers and thanks to you all for your kindness and wisdom....

Hey, KF, my first post to you. Ya know there's not a single BS on this site who hasn't played the "what if" game. His A has nothing to do with your looks, weight, lack of loving him...on and on.... it is a character flaw within him and him alone.
And you know that God made you and He loves you. It's just that sometimes we all need to be pruned so that we can grow and flower to our fullest extent. We are all subject to the temptations of satan, and your WH fell for it. You, however have the peace of God in your favor. He will guide you, he led you here did He not? No more of you trashing God's children!!
You see, when you self doubt yourself, and demean yourself to others, that is what you have done. Next time he starts to trash talk, tell him you are sorry he feels that way, you're sorry he's having a bad day. Please don't feed his justifications for his A. He's just gonna make a note of it for further use. Admit your part in the conditions that led up to his A. You had the same conditions...WH had an A and you didn't, see what I'm saying? Check out Orchid's Reverse Babble thread.

Decades ago, I got a divorce due to a philandering WH. I was so young and I prayed and prayed that my WH would change his ways and be the H that I wanted and needed for me and my infant. He became abusive and raped me after the D. All I can say is Thank God for unanswered prayers.

Stand up for yourself and never grovel to him again. In the end your WH has to stand up and answer for what he did, and you know when he starts blaming you, he is sooo on his way to the "smoking" section!! Be strong for you and your kids.

You are are precious in His sight, and you are precious to your parents and kids. Show them the strength of a strong mother. You will be just fine, strength begets respect. GF