LOL, SS. Thanks for checking in on me.

WH2LE - I didn't mean to ignore your last post, but I actually haven't looked for my thread so I didn't know there was a response. I like your dealing with withdrawal ideas. I've tried some of them, I usually don't do so well sometimes. I'm moving back into a more even state and I'm thankful for that.

And now for my essay... 500 words or more - you know me quite well... Easy to accomplish!

Things for me are okay, though I still have my down times. I'm fairly certain there's no contact between H and OW, though I don't know exactly how I'd know if he had something deeply secret going on. The thing I do know for certain is that he hasn't seen her since Easter weekend. Her b'day was this past Saturday. He worked in the morning - verified because he called me from the land line in his office - and we spent the afternoon and evening together. Since she lives 4 hours away, a trip to see her is an investment of 8 hours in travel time alone so he won't try this unless he can get an overnighter in.

That being said, I have to travel the week of Memorial Day on Tuesday - Friday. I'm very nervous about being gone, but I really need to make this trip for my new job. It starts Monday. I've thought about how to handle the separation and will ask him to call me from our home number at night or at least be available to answer our home phone when I call. Also, I'll ask that he check in during the day from his work land line. I've also considered having my PI get involved, but that will really be expensive. My last little check in on him that turned out to be good news cost $180.

He is still having trouble sleeping in our bed. I asked him about it Saturday and he got all annoyed and said he had been going to sleep in our bed but since I had some attitude, he didn't really feel like it. I told him that I recognize his tactic of turning it back on me - I was going to... until you did ... - and that wasn't acceptable to me. I told him he could do what he wanted, but he owned his decision and I wouldn't accept any part of it. He went to bed in the guest room and woke up Sunday morning in a good mood. He slept in our bed Sunday night and Monday night, but really did toss and turn all night long. It kept me awake. I had turned the thermostat down low, so I know he wasn't hot. I just think he's having trouble getting attached again. He has to get up very early tomorrow morning and is sound asleep in the guest room now.

He took Monday off and we spent the day walking around the mall. I know that's not all that exciting, but it worked for me. We went out for lunch and then did some shopping. (I got 2 new swimsuits and a dress.. ) On the way home we stopped in to a few subdivisions we'd looked at a few years ago to see if they had anything available. It's something we've done before that we've enjoyed. We cooked out for dinner and it turned out to be a nice day.

He started taking Chantix yesterday to help him quit smoking. He's only had a few today and we talked tonight about how he will need to exercise some personal responsibility and self control instead of relying on the tablets to do the job for him.

We also talked tonight about him sleeping in the other room. It was a short convo, which seems to work best for us sometimes. I told him that I understand that SF had been a problem for us before - not enough for him and when we did he sometimes thought I was only appeasing him. I told him that I'm very willing to meet this need and in fact a healthy sex life is something I strongly desire, too. I told him that I can't just jump into SF when there's not much affection or closeness between us. I told him that sleeping in the same bed makes me feel closer to him and building this strength is essential for me to be able to provide the kind of SF he's looking for. He said he understands that and he wants to get there, too. He said he does understand that he needs to re-engage and that he is trying to do that and that he does want to. We said ILY and good night. This actually was different than usual, so I'll wait and see if this approach ends up being a better one - one that reaps results that I want.

So, that's what's going on in a nutshell. As for how I'm doing, I think I'm better for now. I do hate it that I seem to do better when he's being decent and it seems like my good days are dependent on him having good ones. I am aware of this, though, and am trying to not have this codependent tendency. I also think that when I get back to work, this will get better. I'm at least hopeful that we will get through this. I know we still have a long way to go and I need to get some questions answered, but I think we have a chance to get there.

Sounds pretty good! And hooray for you for being so honest, about everything! Sounds like a great path to a better relationship. I wish I could be like you.

Student gets an A+ for effort.
A for Sentence structure.
A for essay length.
Student needs to know she is doing well. I hope she does. I sincerely hope she does.


Things for me are okay, though I still have my down times. I'm fairly certain there's no contact between H and OW, though I don't know exactly how I'd know if he had something deeply secret going on.

Really glad that it looks like NC. You will continue to have up and down times. I recommend staying far away from R talks when you are down. Often very difficult because during those times we seem driven to get our feelings out. You already know the reasons behind this.

The thing I do know for certain is that he hasn't seen her since Easter weekend.

The longer it goes, the easier it will be for both of you. I really hope he makes it.


That being said, I have to travel the week of Memorial Day on Tuesday - Friday. I'm very nervous about being gone, but I really need to make this trip for my new job. It starts Monday. I've thought about how to handle the separation and will ask him to call me from our home number at night or at least be available to answer our home phone when I call. Also, I'll ask that he check in during the day from his work land line. I've also considered having my PI get involved, but that will really be expensive. My last little check in on him that turned out to be good news cost $180.

My first thought was to suggest an ankle bracelet. (see your local probation officer.) However, I should probably not tease you like that.

You do need to make your boundaries clear. If he wants recovery, he does need to help you trust him again. I am so glad you are thinking about what you need, and communicating it to him. I am especially glad he is helping you. It makes all the difference.

He is still having trouble sleeping in our bed. I asked him about it Saturday and he got all annoyed and said he had been going to sleep in our bed but since I had some attitude, he didn't really feel like it. I told him that I recognize his tactic of turning it back on me - I was going to... until you did ... - and that wasn't acceptable to me. I told him he could do what he wanted, but he owned his decision and I wouldn't accept any part of it.

Good for you. It wasn't until my W learned to do this that I changed some of my habits. She called me on them in a nice but firm way. Now we laugh, but it helped so much. Reading "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love" (by Harley) helped both of us to "see" what we were doing, and know how to change. Before we read it, I had a hard time wrapping my mind around some of the things I was doing. After, it was very clear to me. Harley has a gift for explaining things.


I know my W has a hard time sleeping with out me these days. I don't have the same problem, and it bothers her sometimes. If I am gone, she will toss and turn. If She is gone, I sleep like a rock. People really are different. They can change..... (as in my brothers case.)
You will figure this part out in time when love is fully restored. I wouldn't worry much about it now.

He took Monday off and we spent the day walking around the mall. I know that's not all that exciting, but it worked for me. We went out for lunch and then did some shopping. (I got 2 new swimsuits and a dress.. ) On the way home we stopped in to a few subdivisions we'd looked at a few years ago to see if they had anything available. It's something we've done before that we've enjoyed. We cooked out for dinner and it turned out to be a nice day.


It's nice how this turned out for you. Any of us can have fun on a Hawaiian vacation, or a world cruise. Having fun walking around the mall is much more telling. Having him enjoy your company gives you what you need. I didn't get that for a long, long time. One day a friend said to me "I spent the say shopping with my W."
I replied "I'm so sorry for you."
"No," he said, "You don't understand. Any time I spend with her, is time well spent."

I thought about that for days afterwards. It taught me a great lesson. I think you already get it, and it looks like he is getting it also. Keep calling him on things, and teaching him. I wish he would read the books, it would help a log.

He started taking Chantix yesterday to help him quit smoking. He's only had a few today and we talked tonight about how he will need to exercise some personal responsibility and self control instead of relying on the tablets to do the job for him.

Some of these things he already knows. Watch his ego when you teach and explain. Make sure he views it as help, not as browbeating. I am guessing you know this, but it's something you need to watch. (It's something all of us need to watch.)

We also talked tonight about him sleeping in the other room. It was a short convo, which seems to work best for us sometimes. I told him that I understand that SF had been a problem for us before - not enough for him and when we did he sometimes thought I was only appeasing him. I told him that I'm very willing to meet this need and in fact a healthy sex life is something I strongly desire, too. I told him that I can't just jump into SF when there's not much affection or closeness between us. I told him that sleeping in the same bed makes me feel closer to him and building this strength is essential for me to be able to provide the kind of SF he's looking for. He said he understands that and he wants to get there, too. He said he does understand that he needs to re-engage and that he is trying to do that and that he does want to. We said ILY and good night. This actually was different than usual, so I'll wait and see if this approach ends up being a better one - one that reaps results that I want.

I applaud you for the way you approached it. Very, very well done. Harley explains these kind of thing well in HNHN. When he understands WHY you feel what you feel, and how you need him to help, he is much more likely TO help.


So, that's what's going on in a nutshell. As for how I'm doing, I think I'm better for now.

Thanks for letting us know. It's not that we think things will blow up on you. However, we do care.


I do hate it that I seem to do better when he's being decent and it seems like my good days are dependent on him having good ones. I am aware of this, though, and am trying to not have this codependent tendency. I also think that when I get back to work, this will get better. I'm at least hopeful that we will get through this. I know we still have a long way to go and I need to get some questions answered, but I think we have a chance to get there.

I think your chances are good. It took us nearly 3 years (after we found MB) to get to a place were both of us where happy. We were HAPPIER after one, and better in two, but it was nearly three before we felt we had arrived. It has gotten better every year since. Keep talking to God. Include him in your plans. God cares about you, and knows things you do not know. God can help with all your troubles, and keep you from harm, both physical and emotional.

I hope you don't mind my comments. It looks like you really don't need much help at this point, but I usually comment anyway.

SS

SS - thanks for your comments. It does help me to hear commentary on my commentary! I think I do know what I need to do, it's just that sometimes I have a very hard time doing it. I think I'm still kind of in a place where I need more from him and I need to continue to let him know what I need. This is difficult, because he often takes requests as LBs.

I realize that we will have ups and downs. I had a downer today. I stopped by our insurance agent's office to sign a document. The girl in the office said "Now you guys are separated, right? Do I need to get another address for you or him?" I was shocked that he would have told anyone that because we've never been separated. He changed our insurance to this agent about 6 weeks ago, so who knows what was going through his mind but I was ticked off. I'm debating whether to mention it to him or not. Part of me says to let it go and part of me says that I don't need to keep letting things like this go.

We also had a short discussion about finances and he said that he will continue to pay all our household bills even though I have a job. Prior to my job loss, H paid the mortgage, insurance, and his own expenses while I paid the household bills, groceries, and my own expenses. I always put money into savings. He now wants to have me be responsible for saving because I definitely am better at it than he is. I don't mind this set up but now wonder about his motivation. I also wonder if I'm being paranoid...

Anyway - just had a call from H and he's on the way home from work. He called to tell me he hasn't smoked all day long. I told him how fabulous that is, how proud of him I am, and asked how he feels. He said he's feeling fairly p***y. I laughed and said thanks for the heads up. He then told me he actually is feeling pretty good. It's nice to be able to joke about moods and feelings at least a little bit now. During A, we were never able to do that at all even though I didn't know why. So at least I have the heads up that a bad mood tonight really might be related to something else besides his unhappiness with our M.

KLD,

It is so good to hear that there is NC. I will be praying hard for you and your H the week you are gone. That will be a prayerful week in every way because it is our 7th Anniversary and the DDayaversary(Just can't bring myself to call it an anniversary like it's a celebration of something).

I like it that you are not letting things go. It builds resentment. But I know how hard it is to sort out what is a normal up or down and what is an issue that needs to be tackled.

I was THRILLED with your response to your H about sleeping in the guest room.

Maybe you should buy a new bed. Something WONDERFULLY comfortable for both of you. I have heard FABULOUS things about the tempurpedic mattresses. Do you have a King Size??? My H and I could not live without our king size bed. We are both very restless sleepers and it makes our life much easier.

Praying,
WH2LE

Thank you for all your loving support, WH2LE. I have gained lots of strength from you even though I haven't always been able to operate from a position of strength. You have helped me see there's more than one way to skin a cat and you've given me "permission" to have bad days. I've needed that - acceptance of who I am and where I am today.

I am a little worried about MC tomorrow night. H told me tonight that he wants to tell me how he feels tomorrow night. I asked him if this would be difficult for me to hear and he said he hoped not. I don't know what to expect.

H just went to bed and decided to sleep in our bed tonight. He also asked me to come to bed soon and snuggle up to him when I get there. I don't know how to interpret this given his announcement about his feelings discussion planned for tomorrow. I can't help but wonder if he's trying to make me feel better for the hard blow that's coming. He typically doesn't do things like that, but there have been a ton of things he's done in the recent past that he hadn't done before. Guess I have to wait and see.

We do have a king size bed. I don't think I could sleep with him in a smaller bed. He's a very restless sleeper and sometimes it gets on my nerves. When we've had to sleep in smaller beds before, it's been torture for me!! When we go to my parent's house, they have double beds in the guest rooms and unless my brother and SIL come, we sleep in separate rooms there so we can get sleep. If we have to sleep in a double bed together, one of us always has to get up and find a couch somewhere.

WH2LE - I will definitely be praying for what's coming up for you. I know you've been struggling lately and I've been praying for some breakthroughs for you guys. I also thank you for continuing to remember us and for giving me so many great ideas from a spiritual point of view. It's given me hope and strength and I appreciate that more than I can say.

Well, tonight didn't go quite as well as I had hoped. H started off by saying that he is uncomfortable in our M and he doesn't know what to do. MC asked him to elaborate and he couldn't. He just said he doesn't feel comfortable. She asked if he thought he was feeling guilt and he said yes. She asked him how he thought he could ease the guilt and he didn't know. He says he is sure that the rest of his life with me will be me telling him what he can/can't do and handing all his money over to me. He said he doesn't believe he will have a life if he stays M to me.

This really made me angry and upset. I said it has only been a few months with a backslide at Easter, too, and that he hasn't proven that he's trustworthy yet. I told him I won't blindly trust him until he shows he can be honest. Things went downhill from there. It was not productive in any way. He said we keep going over the same things. I responded that we don't ever get to a resolution on those things so why would they go away. I told him that he has rarely shown me any compassion or reached out to me when I was upset. He says he does all the time. He absolutely doesn't. We have a huge disconnect for what showing compassion means to each of us. MC tried to get us back on track, but it just went out of control too fast. H got frustrated and said that he was being ganged up on and wouldn't participate in that.

On the way home, H said that he knew this wouldn't be helpful and he never should have agreed to do it. He said he is going to get his stuff and move out this weekend and that I can file for D and take whatever I want. I told him that I want him and I want the M and that he can work for a D if he wants one so bad.

I'm so tired of this stuff. H is so wonderful sometimes and I want to be married to that man. But even when he's fun and seeming happy, there is still a block because I know he's not being open with me and I know he doesn't think he needs to. He declared on a stack of Bibles that he isn't in touch with OW. I have some evidence that this is true, but there's still that bit of uncertainty that he doesn't think is his responsibility to take care of. I feel some resentment because I'm the one doing most all the work to hold this thing together and even though I knew it would be that way it's taking a toll. (I know, Plan B would help that) When I get upset over the details of his A because there hasn't been much discussion from him on these things I get a black mark.

So, I'm torn about what I should do next. I felt like I have been honest with him about what I need to trust him again and he thinks those things are too much. It always ends in an argument. If he does get his things to move out tomorrow night, I know he'll spend the weekend at the OW out of town. That in itself will put us back a long way. I'm just not sure I have much fight left in me when all the good gets erased just because I have requirements that he thinks are unreasonable. I'm considering adjusting my Plan B letter a little bit in case he does leave. Since it won't be me asking him to go, I wonder if a letter would even be helpful. It may be best to just let him go and wait it out. I'm not sure what would have the most impact.

So much of my hurt stems from how he has handled things since D-Day. The continued lies about contact and then changing his passwords. The relapse to see her again and then lying about that until he knew he was caught again. The inability to ask for forgiveness. The lack of compassion for my feelings and hurt. The focus on things I did to "make" him cheat.

I also know that these are typical, but I think my H is so closed up and unwilling to communicate (not due to the A - he's always been this way) that we won't have any tools to get through it. I'm always going to have unmet needs around this and he's always going to feel unappreciated because nothing he does is enough.

I do know that he is sorry for what he's done and that he didn't mean to hurt me. That doesn't make it all go away, though. I made the mistake tonight of saying that I've handled this much differently than most other women would have. He said he didn't care how other women would have handled it, he only knows that he has had to deal with tirades from me and that's not acceptable to him. I actually do realize that he has a good point that he only has to deal with how I am handling this, but in the end what I really heard was that I don't have a right to be angry about what he's done. What he hears is that he doesn't have the right to have a life any more.

The good news is that I haven't become unglued and emotional. I am upset, but not crying like I have in the past. I'm trying to not let his perceptions determine what I know to be true.

He's now asleep in the guest room and for once, I'm glad he's in there and not in our bed. I don't feel that my world is torn apart because he said the D word again.

So, is a Plan B letter indicated in this situation or do I just see what happens and deal with it when it comes?

KLD,

I'm glad you're not crying because I am crying for you. SIGH.

He still sounds so foggy.

A few direct questions that may sound stupid. I am just wondering if you have said these things to him directly.

Have you asked him how he thinks you SHOULD be acting?

Or exactly what is it he wants you to do regarding all this?

Have you asked him what is so offensive about you that he finds you so difficult to live with?

Have you asked him if he thinks you DO have a right to be angry?

Have you asked him if he thinks you should actually be OVER this at this point?

Have you told him that although he may not have neant to hurt you, that of course he hurt you. It doesn't matter what he meant,it matters what he did?

Have you told him that ultimately he WILL be able to do enough, that at this point your Love Bank is in the red and that you want to fill his Love Bank too?

Have you told him that you are still very much in love with him?

Have you asked him if he is thinking about the OW? And if he wants to go back to her?

I just ask if you have asked these questions as thought starters.

It infuriates me to think that he said he your "tirades" are unacceptable!! Worse than his adultery????? He has NO idea what a tirade is at all!!!!!!!!!

Personally, I think that IF he actually leaves a Plan B letter IS in order. That way, he can't get his fix of you. But I think the vets can advise you better here. Maybe a call-out to Believr or Melody or Mimi.

He sounds very much to me like he is in heavy duty withdrawal. If he has been involved with the OW for 3-4 years, then he is probably used to going without her for fairly long periods of time. Then he could get his fix of her without you knowing, creating a reason to have to go on a trip.

Now though, he can't do that without you knowing. I think his threat of leaving is his making an excuse to get a fix. He is not thinking any farther than getting his "drug". He is not thinking so much about leaving you. He just wants the relief that comes from feeding the addiction.

Does this ring true with you?

My H and I had more than one MC session like you experienced tonight. It's one of the reasons we stopped seeing her. She was good for me, but not US.

Clearly, your H is not committed to recovery yet. THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE WON'T BE EVENTUALLY THOUGH!!! He still has not experienced life without you. I fully believe that if he goes to the OW, he will soon need his fix of YOU.

I am so sorry it is like this for you. It just stinks!!!

Joshua1:9 AGAIN!!! Psalm 23. Oh, and the perfect one for ALL BSs, Psalm 35. I almost have it committed to memory. I especially like the NIV version.

Praying for peaceful sleep and a comforted heart,
WH2LE

Here is my Plan B letter that I will use if he decides to leave tomorrow. If he decides to stay, I think I will see how it goes. If there's no improvement, I will change the letter and initiate Plan B myself.

Dear H,

I apologize to you for helping to create an environment that made it possible for you to get emotionally involved with someone else. I have been and continue to be willing to work on the things about me that need to change. I heard you when you said that you haven’t noticed much of a difference in me and I recognize the need to be consistent and dig deeper. I have a strong desire to meet your emotional and physical needs so you won’t feel the need to seek love, acceptance, and support outside our marriage.

The past few months have been the most difficult time of my life. I’ve been paralyzed by my fear that you could be continuing to turn to OW for emotional connection and support and my hurt that you allowed her to take the place in your life that was meant for me alone. In spite of the pain and humiliation I feel over your affair, I do have strong and wonderful memories of our time together. I still see all the qualities that made me fall in love with you and commit to spend the rest of my life with you. I believe with all my heart that we can be happy together again – when I visualize my future you’re there laughing with me about something silly. I remain completely committed to you.

Now we face crossroads that will likely determine what our future becomes. Arguments and angry words have not helped us find a way back into our marriage and will erode any love we still feel for each other. Your decision to separate from me will hopefully allow you to sort your feelings out on your own and help preserve the love we have left for each other. I would like nothing more than to leave the past behind us and create a new life with you. For this to happen, I must be certain that you’ve stopped communication with OW and that you are taking significant measures to ensure that she can never enter our lives again. Additionally, I must see clear evidence that you value fidelity and that you will take any action necessary to protect me and our marriage in the future. Until you’re able to commit to me and our marriage, I really need to not be with you because the pain and uncertainty have become too much for me to handle at this time.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend. I love you and I value you. I believe in your ability to make the best decision for yourself and our family.

Love,

KLD

WH2LE, that was an excellent post. Everything you say makes sense.

I think the questions you put out can be very valuable to KLD, and her H.

KLD, I know nothing that is said will make it feel good, but we care, and we are praying for you.

God does care, and though he gives us free will, he can soften hearts, and change minds.

We add our prayers to those of WH2LE.

SS

WH2LE - Thanks for being here tonight. I needed to hear some clear thoughts. Sorry to make you cry, though. I know you don't need to be crying about somebody else's crap!!!

He still sounds so foggy.
Is it fog, really, or is it just a total inability to understand what his role should be? I see the typical fog stuff going on, but I wonder if that's all it is. I fear that he just isn't good husband material. Someone gave me that feedback several months before I found out about his A and I discounted it as an opinion from someone who didn't really know us. Maybe there was some truth there that I need to at least consider.

Have you asked him how he thinks you SHOULD be acting? Or exactly what is it he wants you to do regarding all this?
I asked this tonight and he couldn't give me an answer. The only thing he said is that I keep going over all the same stuff and I won't move forward.

Have you asked him what is so offensive about you that he finds you so difficult to live with?
I haven't asked this one exactly like this, but he said that sometimes I'm a witch and that I'm always bossy. He feels like he won't be allowed to have his own life or make his own decisions if he stays with me.

Have you asked him if he thinks you DO have a right to be angry? Have you asked him if he thinks you should actually be OVER this at this point?
Yes, and he says that I do have a right to be hurt, but he thinks some of the anger should have cooled by now. He says he knows it takes time to get over this kind of hurt.

Have you told him that although he may not have neant to hurt you, that of course he hurt you. It doesn't matter what he meant,it matters what he did?
Yes, with no response from him except for the heavy sigh that I've come to absolutely hate.

Have you told him that ultimately he WILL be able to do enough, that at this point your Love Bank is in the red and that you want to fill his Love Bank too?
Yes, at least in a way. I've reminded him that it has only been a few weeks since his backslide and that as we make new happy memories, those bad ones will fade. I've told him that time and consistency will go a very long way.

Have you told him that you are still very much in love with him?
Yes, I've told him. I've written several love letters to him that I don't even know if he read.

Have you asked him if he is thinking about the OW? And if he wants to go back to her?
I asked this tonight (again) and he said he doesn't think of her. I also asked if he wants to see her again and he said no. I just don't know if he's telling the truth or not. One thing that he continues to fall back on is that I don't make it easy for him to be honest with me. When asked how he wants me to respond, he just says he doesn't want me to get angry. I also got feedback from Jennifer of MB when we were talking to her that I have to react in a very low key way. I can't show anger and I must respond by saying "thank you for being honest with me. how can we resolve this issue that you've shared with me?" I struggle with how much I should be willing to take without showing emotion and hurt.

It infuriates me to think that he said he your "tirades" are unacceptable!! Worse than his adultery????? He has NO idea what a tirade is at all!!!!!!!!!
I know. I was so angry when he said that. I didn't even know how to respond. Any response I usually have is perceived as a sarcastic remark and is a big LB for him. It turns out that most any reminder that he was (is?) a lying cheater is a big LB for him. I guess his A and all the junk that goes with it is a simple little LB that gets lumped into one tidy little pouch and put aside because he said he was sorry when I asked him if he was.

Personally, I think that IF he actually leaves a Plan B letter IS in order. That way, he can't get his fix of you. But I think the vets can advise you better here. Maybe a call-out to Believr or Melody or Mimi.
I did post my letter for feedback. I changed it a little since if he goes, it will be his decision to leave not me actually implementing a Plan B.

In the past, he has often picked fights to justify going away for a weekend so he can see her. The only thing about tonight is that he didn't really pick a fight, things just went to crap in our session. I've seen how he's manipulated before and this didn't seem like that. I do believe completely, though, that even if this wasn't by design on his part he will use it to his full advantage to see OW. I can't even express how angry it makes me to think that he knows the depth of hurt and pain he has caused and will still move Heaven and Earth to see this tramp of a loser woman. It's bad enough that he chose ANY woman to get involved with, but choosing her is salt in my wounds. I can't get past the terrible details of her life and her past and how he could ever have gotten tangled up with this kind of loser. I will probably wonder about this for the rest of my life. I have wondered if he did this for spite because I had told him of my suspicions about her from the day I knew about her - long before any A was even thought of. She made me uncomfortable right from the start and he knew it.

I agree that he isn't committed. I don't know if he ever will be, but I do know there's a chance. Tonight, I'm feeling sad but a little resigned to what might happen next. I am beginning to accept that maybe D is best because I don't know if he will ever be able to open up and I don't think we can move forward until he does.

You know, I'm still so filled with hatred and resentment towards OW. I hold my H accountable for his half of that and I feel anger towards him, too. But what I feel for her is so deep and strong and ugly. I know all the stuff about how this only hurts me because she doesn't know or care how I feel. I know that this kind of anger can cause me physical problems. I know that she shouldn't be this important to me and that I shouldn't let her ruin my day or my life. There's something that I can't seem to turn off, though. I want her to hurt like I'm hurting. I wish her nothing but bad things and would dance on her grave if she died right now. I'm a smart person and I know all the truths about hatred and resentment, so why won't it go away? I've tried putting her out of my mind, but she always comes back.

SS - thanks for responding so late at night. It helps to know that you care and that you're praying for us. I know God can soften hearts and I hope that miracle will happen for us. I think my heart needs some conditioning and it's really hard for me to get there right now. I will get there, though.

I'm a smart person and I know all the truths about hatred and resentment, so why won't it go away? I've tried putting her out of my mind, but she always comes back.


This is what the Atonement is all about. He can do things for us that we can't do for ourselves.

From Isaiah Chapter 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a
root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I hope you don't mind me quoting this. It has often been a comfort to me. I recommend you tell God what you have been telling us, and ask for help. I promise you will get it.

Sweet dreams KLD.Sweet dreams.

SS

AMEN SS,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

PS. KLD, you are doing great and you are SOOOOO WORTHY!!!
Keep up the good work. Keep praying, and God knows how awesome you are. SO DO WE ON MB.

{{{KLD}}} I'm always so amazed at how strong you are, I wish I could be like you.

The only thing I can add is that he reminds me of so many men I've met who really, truly just don't want to get into all that mushy touchy-feely junk. Why can't we just ignore it and get along? Why do we have to keep going over mistakes? Just buck up like I do.

I really think many, if not most, men really operate that way. I think they always retain that childlike feeling of getting chewed out by mom, and they judge the rest of their life in terms of whether they find themselves back in that position. If they get too much of it, the shut down, or leave. That's not a criticism, not an excuse but an observation that might help understand him. I think he can't imagine 2 years from now when the hurt has lessened and you don't look at him every time with recrimination on your face (or in his mind); I think he sees the current pain, and can't visualize getting beyond that - and thus, life with you means pain. And having to keep dredging up those stupid feelings.

Basically, I hear him saying you're going to keep ragging on him like his mother did, and why should he stay for that?

Mind you, I'm certainly not telling you to change anything. I think you've done the most amazing work I've seen yet. I'm just suggesting that this might be what he's thinking, if that will help you understand him a little more.

I hope everything turns out ok.

Miss M - thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I appreciate it and it helps to be reminded that I am worthy and that God has a plan for me and also for H.

Cat, I don't really feel all that strong, but I do feel like I'm handling emotions better in this episode. I don't think I handled things all that well last night because I got mad and said some things I didn't mean. I fell back to my own hurt and pain when he was trying to talk about his feelings. So, in his mind I was selfish and controlling and bossy just like I always am and that will never change.

I think you're dead on about how he would like to just move on. I agree that many men approach things that way - mainly the ones who have trouble discussing feelings and opening up. I also agree that he can't visualize anything other than him being the whipping boy for the next 40 years. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't be able to face a future that looked like that, either. I have tried to show him that our life won't be filled with trust issues and restrictions if we can address these things now and set up a plan that works for both of us. He is a very stubborn person who sticks to his viewpoint at all costs. He knows what his future is if he stays with me and that will only be misery. The past few weeks of me not bring up anything at all about his A have left no impression on him. He doesn't even view it the same way that I do - he told me last night that I made sarcastic references to his A many times and he felt chastised the whole time. I asked for examples of what I'd said and he couldn't give any - said he tried to ignore them because they were so hurtful. I have no idea what I could have said - I was focusing very hard on not bringing anything up so I wonder if his perception is a little skewed.

Anyway, I tried to call him a few minutes ago and he didn't answer his phone. I don't know if he's busy or just not taking my calls. Maybe he's Plan B'ing me today in preparation for coming home tonight and getting stuff to move out.

Well, if it helps, I DO think that he's more upset with himself than you, from what you've said. That he's going around hating himself and being super vigilant for signs that you hate him, too.

And I'm not all that sure that he would be running back to OW. He may still be foggy, but I also think that all the stuff that's been revealed about her lately may have tarnished that fog a little. JMO

I hope you're right, Cat, and that he has seen OW and all her many flaws for what it really is. I think he is angry with himself for alot of things. I think he'd die before admitting it again, but I think he does feel like she played him a little bit to get money from him. That must feel terrible. I'd feel even worse if I realized that OW liked the money more than she liked me.

He just broke his Plan B. LOL. He saw that I called but was in a noisy part of the facility and couldn't answer. We talked a little about last night and he said he wants to talk again tonight. I told him that I think we both feel unheard and that we're both guilty of being selfish right now. He agreed and said he'd like to discuss more tonight. I guess we'll see if this time goes better than the last time.

I have to admit that I feel sad and apprehensive, but I'm not emotional at all. I did tear up just a touch when I told him that I don't mean to be bossy when I try to communicate my needs to him. He said he understands and that he doesn't mean to always throw that in my face. But other than that - and I didn't actually go ahead and cry then - I'm not falling apart. This is a good thing for me because normally I would feel like my world has come to an end and that there's no hope for any kind of happiness. I feel now like I will deal with whatever comes next no matter what that is. I think having a job and a financial plan to be on my own again makes a big difference. I don't feel helpless anymore or dependent on someone who is "taking care of me" out of obligation rather than love.