I'm glad you're going to try selling things on ebay. I've had that on my to do list for a long time. I'd be interested in how that goes for you.

Another thing I've done in the past - don't laugh! - is go to the local blood plasma donation site. They pay up to $100 / month for blood plasma. If you're healthy, it just means you get to spend about an hour reading or watching tv, which for me is a welcome break if I have the time. $100 / month isn't a whole lot but it's practically free money if you have the time.

Anyway I didn't come here to tell you how to raise money. I wanted to echo KLD that it's ok if you take over paying the bills, unless there's some reason why it's been "his" job. The bills affect you both, right? Are they household bills? Dave Ramsey is a Deep-South, traditional kind of guy, but he says the person who should handle the financial matters is whoever is better at it.

I meant to say this earlier but forgot.

Say what? I've been donating blood and plasma for 15 years, and they never told me they'd pay me, lol! Man, I'm a sucker!

LOL

If you donate blood to the Red Cross you get cookies and juice. But there are some companies that all they do is blood plasma, they take your blood and run it through something and get the plasma and put your blood cells back into you. I think with blood plasma you don't have to match by blood type, so it's in demand. These are companies, I assume for-profit, and yes they pay something like $25/visit. You can "donate" more often since they are just removing plasma, you just have to stay hydrated.

Sorry, long story, but I have to set it up to see what I did wrong. We're on Activities Committee and are throwing a teen pool party Friday night, has been planned for months. Remember how we thought we were going to Dallas last week to help his best friend set up the electronics in his new house, and then found out it was this Friday? Conflict. And H is the kind of person who bends over backwards to help friends and neighbors and literally is mortified if he isn't, if he ever says no. So this friend is paying for us to stay at this nice hotel that is part of a mall, so D17 and I can do our own thing while he's working at the friend's house.

I had told the group last week that I would have to miss the pool party (we've only got 4 volunteers, so H and me missing is a big thing), lady in charge didn't get the message and got upset Monday night when we met and she found out, so I said I'd try my best to make it, maybe we could drive to Dallas when the party is over at 11pm (5 hour drive). Which is something even H had suggested, though he wasn't happy about it. Left it at that.

So H takes D17 to school every day. Has been doing that since she started school. It's his 'time' with her. Now that he has this job where he has to get to work at a certain time, which he started last summer, he stresses out about her not getting ready in time, cos he doesn't want to be embarrassed at work about getting in late. There's that image thing again. Although he's upper management and can technically get in any time he wants, he doesn't act like it at work; he's always tiptoeing around trying not to get in trouble, asking for favors, acting like entry level - so they treat him that way.

Plus, as you know, he is hyper-critical of her, always expecting her to make mistakes, lose all the electronics he keeps buying her, be selfish, etc. So every morning is full of stress. We've been getting out of the house later, we've all been sleeping later, D17 won't use her alarm clock and uses her phone instead but she usually sleeps through that one, too. I usually wake her up, but sometimes she gets up earlier than us. And I'm too depressed to change things at night to get us more organized and H never does anything at home except work on his computer, have SF, and watch TV. So some of this is my fault, some is his, some is hers.

Anyway, about every 3 days, he'll call me after he drops her off at school, and complains about her. I've tried saying 'why don't you talk to HER about this?' or 'what are you going to do about it?' or 'why do you think she did that?' But they repeat the same cycle day after day after day. So this morning, she had to take her laptop for a school project, had to take a college placement exam, had to give a CD to a girl, and got downstairs late. So they had it out as usual because he doesn't want her taking her computer to school, although it's for a special project where she's been giving talks to girls about teen dating abuse. Anyway she said she had to give her laptop to the other girl doing the project with her so the girl could add some bibliography stuff to the written portion. Now, I know the girl could have emailed it or something, but I never said she had a head for planning.

And when she told H that she had a college entrance exam for 4 hours this morning, he was upset because he usually takes her out to Denny's for a big breakfast before such things, but they had no time cos we all got up late and she took so long to get down. So part of it is him upset that he can't be the 'good dad' and treat her - but it's her fault for getting downstairs so late. I woke her at 5:50, she didn't come downstairs until 6:45; I don't know what she does with all that time; probably on the computer.

Anyway, of course they had it out, she yelled at him not to criticize her cos he was upsetting her and she'd mess up the test. So of course he calls me and complains. Says we have to take away her computer and phone so she'll stop staying up so late and getting up late. We have the usual talk, I get upset, he gets upset, we hang up.

So I thought, I'll practice MB and try to help him get a better relationship with D17. I call him back and say 'I was thinking about the trouble you guys are having, and I was thinking that maybe we can come up with other ways to get things done so that you guys don't keep getting upset every day.' He blames it all on her. I say that I just thought that, since what you guys are doing isn't working, maybe you could come up with a different way to approach it. He blames her some more "I've spent $1000 on alarm clocks for her" - at which point I called him out on that "you have bought her 2 alarm clocks, and she can't get this one to work. Just like I can't get mine to work" (sorry, we're not electronically gifted).

So then he gets mad because I'm questioning how he handles things. And hangs up.

And then calls back and says "D17 and I are going to Dallas Friday after school. I don't give a **** WHAT you do." So I say "I already had told them I couldn't make it to help with the party." Which gave him what he wanted. So he said 'fine' and hung up.

What should I have done differently? We have a whole other year of this, unless D17 and H get her car running and she starts driving to school.

I hear you about the teens and the alarm clocks and the phones and the not getting up!

Keep pushing the problem back to DD and DH.

"DH, I suggested that you and DD talk about different ways to handle the mornings so they aren't so stressful. For example, getting stuff out the night before and discussing your schedules the night before. But you don't want to change anything. Since you don't, you can stop complaining to me because I am not involved in the problem. I would be happy to offer suggestions, but you can't say that you don't want to change anything and keep complaining."

Yes I agree with bop. It isn't your job to "fix" their relationship. I know it's a pattern in your M for you to "fix" your H's interpersonal problems, but you are trying to do less of that, right? And at least in this instance, it seems like it was an LB to your H.

Maybe he just wanted someone to listen and make sympathetic noises? Here's an example of why I *disagree* with the "Men are from Mars" thing. That book claims women usually want sympathetic noises and men want to solve problems. I disagree that the split is along gender lines. I think there can be times when men just want to vent, and maybe that's all your H wanted, to release some of the frustration he is feeling over being "double-booked" this weekend and mis-remembering the date, not being able to meet both commitments, not being able to fulfill his "commitment" to take DD out to breakfast, etc.

What if instead of trying to solve the problem, or even instead of trying to put it back on him to find a solution, what if you just sat there and made sympathetic noises like, "Mm-hmm. Yes I hear you. I know. I understand. Yes it's frustrating."

Thanks. When I think about it, I met my H because we worked together and he started coming up to me and complaining about the other salespeople stealing his sales. I would give him advice on how to stop it, he would ignore the advice, and keep coming back to me, complaining. Back then, I had enough cajones to tell him to just quit bothering me if he wasn't going to listen to my advice. We're so unhappy now that if I said that I'd be in for a huge fight. Huger than usual. I need to find some way to say it that he thinks is his idea.

jayne, I know it's not my job, and I've been doing that for at least 3 years now, the listening. I know I'll get a phone call at least every 3 days, and it usually lasts a good 10-20 minutes of him griping about her. And all I do, every time, is 'mm-hmm, I know, I'm sorry.'

It's just that I'm at the point where I'm losing major love deposits with all his griping, and I'm finding myself grimacing every time he calls, because between this and his negativity about every.single.thing in his life, I want to run away screaming. I really don't want to be around him.

Last night he did something really disgusting once we got to bed; something a 5 year old boy would find funny. So disgusting I'm too ashamed to write it. And I realized, I'd been putting up with him doing these things all our lives together, and just not saying anything because I thought it was my duty to just accept him. But I'm so depleted now that it makes me want to cry. And yes, I did tell him what I thought about it.

So when he called yet again this morning, on top of the night before, I thought about having to go through this for the next year til she graduates, every 2 to 3 days, and I just figured I had to say something before I do something drastic or worse. I thought I was saying it diplomatically. But of course, all he heard was criticism and not siding with him. Basically that's what he wants from me, it seems. If I ever defend her, he blows up and yells at me for not siding with him, when it's all her fault. Nothing is EVER his fault, and when I even suggest it, I get the riot act. Look at that one time when all I said was that our CPA said she was upset with him for not paying our bills. He screamed at me, called me a wh*re and a sl*t, and the CPA, too, just for daring to say someone thought he made a mistake.

I know in that case he was feeling guilty, but it doesn't stop him from demanding utter blind support from me and punishing when I don't give it.

I'm just so tired of this crap, the dysfunctional manipulation. I'm tired of crying all the time; having to filter what I say to make sure it doesn't set him off; trying to keep him and D17 from yelling at each other and/or sitting there in agony as they fight. If I wasn't in debt, I think I'd finally be gone. There's no way on earth I could afford to move out, and no way he could pay child support, not with our debt. All I can do is spend the next year doing everything I can to get out of debt. We see CPA in two weeks, and I'm going to ask for her advice, and if he refuses to follow it, I'll go to CCCS and do my own thing.

The only solution for this current situation I can see right now is to find a way to get her car running so she doesn't have to deal with him in the morning.

Cat, have you described this to your IC? You are taking all this on your shoulders, and it's not working for you. It's too much. THat's okay. You know what oyu can handle. They will be fine if you just step away.

What about telling your H that you're overwhelmed and will talk to him later when you're feeling calm? Then, if he has more complaints later, again, it's overwhelming to you. I'm not talking about stonewalling, I'm talking about honesty. If he needs you to address something, maybe you could be enthusiastic about him sending you an email and you'll respond yes or no or whatever within 3 days. I don't know, what would you be enthusiastic about?

I'm not talking about laying blame, because that is a whole confusing mess, and it's not the point. The point is that you need to stop participating in this. I'm asking you to please take responsibility for what you can change and protect yourself from this stuff.

What do you think? Or would you be more kind to yourself by taking a break from problem solving for a few days or a week or whatever you need until you feel better?

(((Cat)))

I'm so sorry. You're right; I wasn't putting this in context with everything else.

It is good that you are learning to speak up and voice your feelings.

ears, that might work. If nothing else, it will point out to him that I'm suffering from the stress. But it might allow me to back away from all the bickering. I don't want to tell D17 to just 'go along' cos that will just teach her to pick an abusive husband. So I need to let her stand up for herself. I just need to protect myself better.

I really need to go back and reread everything here. I went on a whirlwind reading frenzy the first couple months, but I think it all might make more sense now. Cos I'm just a big mess right now and not thinking clearly. I see doctor today to get my ADs adjusted.

Why has no one else has commented on this? These are not the actions and words of a person who can be reasoned with.

That is just outright abuse, and to tell the truth, I've had the feeling all along that your H is just one big pile of abuse. I know you are practicing MB stuff and doing a wonderful job of placing and enforcing boundaries, but it worries me that your H is like that, and that you still believe you are the problem.

He is treating you like a piece of crap, and I'm surprised that others here are not speaking up more about your H's abusiveness.

Cat...
How about putting your daughter's alarm clock across the bedroom? That way she has to physically get up to turn it off, and maybe in the process she'd wake up a bit. If necessary, you can get her a second alarm clock to go off a few minutes later.

She does need boundaries. She needs a better routine. You CAN help her with that. It isn't all about their relationship, not really. It's about guiding her, both of you, as parents so that she'll be productive and able to handle college responsibilities.

Phone off at 9, to bed by 10 with lights out. Think about it. She should use that hour to shower, get her clothes and makeup around, get her backpack ready...papers signed...

And...maybe a new rule - no computer in the morning. Homework should be done the night before - no exceptions.

It's good training for later...Just think about it.

LSNE, I was under the assumption that this verbal abuse and punishing was part of their past, not their present. Cat has given good advice here on the board to folks dealing with this in the present, to not put up with it. Cat's been around here long enough to know that the meeting ENs/POJA is not a plan for folks currently being abused.

Cat, am I mistaken? Is this part of your marriage in the present?

Thanks, LSNE, for commenting. I've been working on a plan to leave next year when D17 goes to college, but I determined that since I found MB, I have to try to do right by my side first, to know I've tried everything. Plus, I can't afford to move out right now. But I know that I've built up a lot of bad interactions on my side, so I'm making sure I can say I didn't contribute; if he continues to do such things after I fix my side, then I'll leave next year.

Soolee, her problem with the alarm clock is that she doesn't hear it; I'll go up there and it's beeping away and she's still asleep. So I'd need to go out and get yet another one. I've been waking her up; once I do that, she doesn't stay in bed. But I've been oversleeping, so I've been waking her up later, too. I need to fix myself! But I've been trying to go to bed at 10, 11 at the latest, as we have to get up at 5.

We did talk about changes, and we made some agreements. She no longer takes her computer upstairs, and I told her the same thing you said, that from now on, she gets ready, she gets downstairs, and if H is not ready, THEN she can look at the computer or text people, and she agreed. This morning she was ready before us.

ears, things have been pretty good. I've realized that the only time such things occur is when he's embarrassed, thinking people are looking down on him, you know? He has such low self-esteem that he's desperate to look good, and be right.

That doesn't excuse it, but it helps me understand it so I don't exacerbate the problem and can find a solution we can both live with, usually.

And I'm speaking up a little bit here and there. I've noticed that he does seem to understand when I make my points, so I just need to buck up and be more vocal. For instance, I never in a million years would have expected him to agree to go to CCCS about our money, but he never said a word!

He thinks he's the best husband ever, so if I can just couch things in terms of what a good husband would do, lol, I think I can do this.

Where I come from these days, one day of progress is a very good thing. I hope D17 can keep up the momentum.

Cat, I know that you're trying to make sure that your side of the street is tidy. I admire that and I also know that you're doing this as much for you and D17 as you are for your H. My only hope is that you're able to handle your depression and actually get things done so you can be on your own if you need to be. I fear that your H may not be able to make changes - not because he doesn't have the capacity but because he absolutely will not accept that he needs to. There are people who choose to never understand that. I think I deal with similar stubbornness in my H and it's a very difficult thing to conquer.

I admire you for giving it a final push since you found MB and I hope that at a minimum you'll end up a more whole person because of the process.

*** When I went back and reread this it sounded like I was expecting a D for you. I don't mean that at all or to sound negative. I just mean that I hope you gain everything you need to end up where you want to be - wherever that is.

Thanks, KLD! It means a lot that you came over here with all you've got going on, I really appreciate it. And I totally agree, lol!

Honestly, I envision this going one of two ways. One, I start living my life and getting stronger and not putting up with his crap and we stay together on my terms, or two, I move out and just live on my own for the rest of my life. I don't even care if we get divorced, cos I sure as heck have no intention of ever wanting to be with another man. It's possible that we could become friends that way, once I'm on my own for the first time in my life.

Either way, I have to learn to become his equal. Or anyone's equal, for that matter. That's a long road for me.

I did get my dr. to put me on Paxil this week, which is what I used to take years ago. He said it is calming, so it counteracts the panic attacks I was having from the Wellbutrin. I'm feeling a bit enthusiastic. Between the money and the traveling and the ADs, it's just been a really rough month.

As for D17, I'm really just so amazingly lucky I have such a good kid. I count my blessings every day she's so goodhearted and level-headed and such a go-getter. She won't have SF in high school, she tells every boy that before they go out. She tries to get any friend who does drugs to quit. She started an anti-teen-dating-abuse campaign at her school and is giving speeches and counseling to all the girls. She likes us enough that she's not in a hurry to move away to college, may just go to community college the first two years - and half of this reason may be because she's always trying to help us save money, bless her heart. And she's confident enough (thank God!) that she doesn't take crap from anyone. Especially her dad. So I have high hopes for her. My only real wish is that her dad could step away from his filtered glasses long enough to realize how much closer he could be with her if he'd change. That may come in time. But for now, I'm so proud of her.

Cat, thanks so much for sharing yourself here. I am glad that you have such an awesome daughter, too.


Cat, I understand that we all have different ways of talking, and I respect that you and I see these things a little differently. I think it's more important that your H be a husband that brings YOU happiness than be a "good" husband. LovingAnyway has an expression, "Self isn't good or bad, it just is." Hearing "good" and "bad" in my self-talk signal me to my DJs, and in H's talk are a signal to me that H is on the attack and I need to protect myself. So that's why they jump out at me.

Cat, have you ever read Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw? It talks about how some folks are raised with unhealthy shame. The way you describe your H, keeping up appearances but treating you and his home the way he does, really fits this IMO. I think that you mentioned your H's dad was an alcoholic. My H's father, too. I think it really changes how they experience the world, and what they expect from their wives. That it angers and sometimes even enrages them when we ask them to take what we are asking for into account. Instead of just what they think we should want.

I'm not saying that your approach is wrong, I'm saying that you may need a different approach here. I think it's really important to look at what YOU want, Cat, in your life, and to be able to ask for it. Like we were saying with jayne, to look at the safety that we can provide for ourselves, too. Just really taking good care of ourselves in all areas.

You're right, ears. Sometimes I get to the point where I'm just ready to say what I want, but most times I don't because I know the resistance I will face and want to avoid it. I'll think on it.