About 5 years ago my wife hit me with the "I Love you but Im not in love with you" speech. I thought things would get better but they didnt and about 3 yrs later she had a one night stand affair with an ex boyfriend whilst we were on holidays. 2 yrs after that she finally said she had enough and has kicked me out.
Was I stupid to not see the writing on the wall when she first gave me the ILUBINILWU speech and leave then? What exactly do they mean when they say that? Any experts here have a good explanation for what exactly is going on inside a womans head when they give that speech?
Am I stupid now to think that after a few months apart we could get back together and maybe fix things. Should I simply move on?

Hi Trum
Welcome to MB. You might want to post in General Questions II where you will find a lot of people in the same horrible leaky rotten boat but you asked a few questions that are relatively easy to answer so let me give them a try before you go.

Were you stupid not to see the signs five years ago? Maybe but that makes a lot of us stupid along with you. You see we all trusted our spouses too. Dr Harley says we should never trust our spouses but how many of us had even heard of Dr Harley before the nuclear bomb dropped?

What is going on with the ILYB speech? It's what they all say when in the addiction of an active affair. It means 'keep meeting the emotional needs (ENs) that you are now meeting and I'll keep getting the others met by the other person (OP)'. In other words 'cake eating'. Along with this goes the rewriting of the marital history so suddenly they were never your life partner and the marriage was a 'mistake'. This makes it easier to deal with the guilt of the affair as they can pretend it was a 'meeting of soul mates' that was beyond their control. Yeah right.

Which leads me to believe that your wife is gaslighting you with the one night stand stuff and has been in an active affair during this entire period. Sorry :-(

Are you stupid to think you can fix things? Again, join the stupid club. We are all here because we believe in marriage and want to use Dr Harley's principles which can work and sometimes do work.

When you get to GQII you will be given some specific steps you will need to take in order to try to recover. The first will be to MOVE BACK INTO YOUR HOUSE. Sorry for shouting. What on earth were you thinking of? She told you to leave so that she could move OP in and you were ok with that????? How could she possibly respect you for that. Sorry, tough words for tough times.

See you on the other side

Lied to Again has a point, but it's wrong to assume that the I love you, but am not in love with you speech only happens when there's an affair. It happens whenever your spouse is not in love with you, that is if you're lucky enough to have a spouse that tells you! Plenty of time you get no warning before you're served divorce papers. It also means that the spouse who says it, is emotionally vulnerable to an affair. If she's not in love with you, she could fall in love with someone else.

Also, the speech doesn't mean she's rewriting history. If she says she's been miserable for six years, she probably has. She gave you the ILY, But speech 5 years ago. Usually, things are pretty bad before you get that. If she says she never loved you... well, that is rewriting history. Ignore the "Never" and "Always" words.

I'd also be cautious about moving back into the house. This could be a sign of disrespecting her wishes.

Okay...

So, when you found out she wasn't in love with you, what did you do? What, if any, changes did you make? Did you two try marriage counseling? Did she suggest MC? What about after the ONS? What actions did you take?

Also, what are the problems she sees in the marriage that led to her not being in love any more? Please do NOT dismiss her complaints as rewritting history.

There is a particular order to the MB approach. The very first thing that must happen is you to stop all behavior that drains her love for you. Angry Outbursts must never happen again, disrepsectful judgements gone!, Dishonesty is gone, annoying behaviors are erradicated, and selfish demands are a thing of the past. It's this last one that makes me think you shouldn't just move back in. I would see that as a selfish demand. You are not concerned about what she wants, just what you want.

After you stop LBing, your wife may start allowing you to meet her needs. She won't all you to meet ENs if you are making lovebusters left and right. Or at all.

She may also start to allow you to spend time with her. Work up to the 15 hours per week.

And keep in mind, the more dramatically you change you behavior, the better chance you have.

Yes, you were naive in thinking things would just get better. You were probably happy with the relationship and didn't want to change it. There are way too many people that don't take their spouses complaints or statements of falling out of love seriously. My own ex didn't. I think I'm going to start giving out plaques that say "If your spouse says there are marital problems, there ARE!"

BTW, if you are 100% sure you two are going to divorce, moving back in may be a good idea from a financial perspective. At least get her to sign something that says you didn't abanndon the house. ONLY if you want to get divorced.

Thanks for the replys. I know for fact that she didnt continue the affair and isnt now still in the affair. For starters we were on holidays in our home town when it happened and we lived over 5000 kms away. Since then we have moved back to our home town to live but it was two years later. I know she didnt contact him at all in that time. We have four kids so it would be near impossible for her to sneak him into the house now for starters. Theres a lot more to it than that but Ive spoken to some close friends of hers in confidence and I just know its not happening now. His wife ended up having a baby and hes happily married. They both knew it was the wrong thing to do. They were both really drunk and it just happened one night. I know your going to say she wanted to move back home to be with him but thats just not the case. She simply isnt interested in him and despises him for what happened.
AS for moving back home that would be imposible to do. Its a rented house anyway and if I even attempted to do so she would simply ring the police who would remove me from the home. Not to mention she would probably then never talk to me again. She had already moved out with the kids and I let her move back in and moved out instead.

When she first told me I tried to change my ways but the problem was it would go good for ages and I would think things were fine again. It wasnt always bad, there would be times when we would get along great. But I never really went to get help to control my angry outbursts etc. The problem was she would not show me any love, hardly showed me any affection at all. I would get angry over it and it would start a fight. Even now she says she wouldnt have been like that if I didnt get angry and abusive. And I say that I wouldnt get angry an abusive if she just showed me some more love and acted like she loved me. Neither of us knows whos at fault except I am now willing to accept that if I wasnt like I was then maybe she would have been more loving...but who really knows.
I only found out about the affair a few months back even though it happened 2 years ago. (Although I did suspect it and often accused her of it.) She fell for him in a big way at the time but he wasnt interested and I think that hurt her. Im sure thats now why she despises him. She thought he was going to say move back home with your kids and I will marry you type thing and instead he stayed with his wife and they had a child.
When I found out I forgave her and said I wanted to forget it. Because I suspected it I wasnt so shocked about it and as it was two yrs ago I thought I could forget about it. The problem was eveytime we fought I would bring it up when I promised that I wouldnt. Our fighting got worse and I would get more abusive (only verbally NEVER physically) and have angry outbursts until one night she said she was leaving and went to her brothers. Now shes back home and Im at my mums.
Im seeing a psychologist to help me stop my anger and verbal abuse. I have to learn to just shut my mouth as it gets me in trouble everytime. I should have done this 5 yrs ago but as it would be good for awhile I always thought things would change. When were not fighting we get along fine and can sit and chat with each other over a botle of wine for hours. Ive already posted a question in the EN forum on how to meet her EN's and make LB deposits when Im not living at home but havent had a response yet. Any suggestions??? Or will by not doing any love busters will this be enough to make some love bank deposits on their own?

Not doing any Lovebusters doesn't earn you points. However, it does stop the bleeding.

Do you recognize that your rationale for the verbal abuse is a sign of abuse to begin with? The abuser thinks and says "If only she/he had done thus and so, I wouldn't have..." thereby blaming the victim for the abuser's action.

Your wife could have used the same flawed logic to rationalize her ONS (one night stand). "If he hadn't been yelled at me, I wouldn't have had sex with my boyfriend from years ago." That kind of thought pattern is also crippling because the sub-text is that a person has no control over his or her actions. That being the case, why bother trying to change?

Try to catch yourself when you think that way, and turn it around. I like the phrase Dr. Harley uses. Spouses create an envirnment within their marriage which makes an affair possible. The opperative word is "possible." It doesn't have to happen.

Her lack of affection may have aggravated your fear of abandonment or rejection.

One thing is for sure, if we hurt our spouse over and over again, it takes superhuman strength for them to meet our emotional needs. It also takes superhuman stregnth for them to allow us to meet their needs.

Have you read all the articles here? And the letters? Just because things get good for a while, doesn't mean you can assume the marriage is good. Steve Harley told me that the reason my then Husband thought I was imagining problems in the marriage and making myself unhappy was because my then H was happy; and people tend to judge the health of the relationship by their own happiness. Because H was happy, he assumed we had a good marraige, and nothing I could tell him would change his mind. (Also, my ex never wanted to make the changes necessary to stay married to me.)

Sooo... What should you do? First, you need to demonstrate dramatic change. This means never ever losing your temper again. You can get mad, just don't lose it.

I wouldn't try all the cutsy things like sending flowers and sweet notes unless you never did that after a fight. If you were in the typical cycle of abusive behavior followed by extra wonderful behavior and promises never to let it happen again, followed by built up frustration or anxiety, followed finally by more abuse... if that was what your relationship was like, your wife will veiw "extra good" behavior with scepticism.

You two have four children. Therefore, you'll have to work together. This is your opportunity to display how you're changing your behavior for the better and can be the man she needs. Just make sure you don't ever lose your temper with the kids. That would be bad.

Be patient with the boards this weekend. It's slow during the weekends. If you need to, bump your post on Monday.

Also, sounds like you're a Brit. Take with a grain of salt any legalish advice you get on the Divorcing board. Most of us are Americans, and laws vary widely.

Good luck. Hang in there.

Thank you so much Greengables for your advice. You are so correct with everything you say. I'm actually an Aussie but thanks anyway for the advice on the legalese.
Im wondering what your thoughts are on my friends saying to act like Ive moved on. They say she knows that she only has to click her fingers and I will come running. But instead If I show her that I've accepted the break up and stop texting her every second day or phoning her all the time asking for a second chance and telling her that I promise I will change, she will start to think that she has lost me and may then decide to ask me to come back and try again. They say that I did do a lot for her with domestic chores helping with the kids etc and she wont be able to cope on her own with four kids and will soon realise just how much I did do for her and might then appreciate me more.

Trum

Sorry you're here but most of us have alot in common. I'm in the process of putting together my marriage too. I'm no expert but I have learned alot from MB and have seen some improve, although not nearly as much as I would like.

When I first got the bomb, I was devastated, acted needy and cried to her and begged and it got me nowhere. She said it actually made her feel worse. I got the bomb before finding out about the A just as most people do. I too had suspicions and had actually felt that she was susceptible to an affair because of the state of our marriage, I wasn't smart enough to do anything about it at the time. If had found MB back then, we may have had a different story to tell.

I think the most important thing for you to do at this time is to eliminate all love busting. No matter how bad you feel you need to defend yourself or how she acts toward you, you have to keep your cool and not do or say anything bad. Until you can manage that, everything you do will be fruitless. Right now she's on the defensive. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, all she sees in conflict and she doesn't want it. I think that was my first breakthrough. I don't act out in anyway. She knows now that she doesn't have to worry about me harrassing her and it's helped.

The hardest thing I've had to try to so is try to be positive. It's absolutely crucial to try to keep a happy face on. I'm getting better but it's rough. It goes with what your friends say about "acting as if you've moved on". You don't want to act uninterested, let her know that you're goal is to recover your marriage and that is your only concern.

Read everything on this site. Take all the advice you can and apply it to your situation. Ask questions, this is an epidemic and there is someone out there who has, or is going through the same things you are. I'm going through it and it sucks. We've all made mistakes and now we're finally finding the right tools to deal with them, hopefully it's not too late and if both parties are willing, there can still be hope.

I wish you luck

Thanks dino69 for your advice. I just spent the last few hrs sending her text messages pleading for her to let me move back home and then after readng your post realised how pathetic Im being and sent her one last text apologising for it.

My biggest fear is that she will find another man. I know thats not likely she has said to me that with four kids the last thing she feels like doing is trying to find another partner and she doesnt care if she never has sex again. But she is only human and I am so worried that one night she might be at a friends party and a hot guy is there and shes had a few drinks and the next thing you know shes back at his place. My sister said if that happens then I know it wasn't meant to be and I should be moving on anyway, but it doesnt make it any easier.
I just wish I knew if she wanted to maybe work things out one day or had no intentions of ever going back. She has given me mixed messages about it so maybe she doesnt even know herself.

How long have you been apart from your wife Dino? Is she still in the affair? Are you worried she might find someone else? What do you think your chances are to be back with her one day? I know every situation is different but would like to hear about your situation.
Thanks again for your advice.

Trum, there's a HUGE difference between acting like a desparate clinging vine and acting like you've moved on. Let's assume your wife is emotionally mature. It's not likely that seeing you "move on" with your life will make her rush into your arms. More likely she'll think to herself that you moved on easily and quickly and therefore never really cared or valued her. Something that she probably suspects already since nothing much changed after she said she wasn't in love with you.

At the same time, you need to give the woman her space. This is especially true if you've ever tended toward controlling behavior.

Does she know you're in counseling? Instead of begging her to take you back, tell her that you're finally seeing where your actions hurt the marriage. That you consider any marriage that makes only one person happy unacceptable. That you're committed to creating a marriage that makes both of you happy.

Trum

First thing is to stop the pleading, it doesn't work. She's scared of getting back into the same routine. Nothing you say will change her mind about that.

Next, stop worrying about what "might" happen. It won't change anything either. Thats also one of my biggest problems. Thinking about things that haven't happened and getting sad about them are only going to hurt you, they will do nothing for her.

One of the best quotes I've seen on here and it's one I have to repeat to myself daily is "women don't leave happy men". You have to make yourself be the best choice for her. You have to be the safe place, the smart choice, the right choice. You do that by getting your head right, by looking good and acting right. You can never ever disrepect her, don't ever yell at her again. Don't pester her. Check on her, make sure she's ok, let her know you're trying to save your marriage and anything that doesn't help that cause, you don't care about. You tell her that no matter what she thinks or how she feels, you're going to keep trying until she actually divorces you, and you can keep trying even then if you want.

Think of all the things you do that she doesn't like. Think of all the bad things you say to her and all the things you've done to start arguements. Think about the things you've done that she says make her feel bad or that get her upset. Once you've figured all those things out, do the opposite, don't ever do them again. At this moment, no matter what you say or do, if it upsets her, you're going to be the bad guy whether you're right or not, so don't bother being right. When she does get upset at you, smile and say "I only care about saving our relationship, it's the only thing thats important to me". Just like greengables said, she needs to know that you only care about making a marriage that will make her happy again. Don't tell her, show her. If she needs you, be there. Don't expect anything back. She needs to know you're doing these things and making these changes because you want to, not because you're looking for something in return. You better WANT to make these changes because if you're doing it just to get her back, it'll never last. If you're faking, as soon as she comes back to you, you'll go back to your old ways, Guaranteed. This is more about making yourself a better preson than it is winning your wife back. If you change into a better person, she'll want to come back. If she doesn't, you'll still be better off because you made yourself better.

I feel kind of funny giving you this advice. I'm no expert and I'm in my own struggle that I fight everyday, have been for the last 5+ months. We still live together although there are some circumstances about living overseas that may have contributed to making her stay. I choose to believe that if she really wanted out, she would've found a way to get herself out. She's never asked me to move out either (I would've never moved out anyway). She's not in the affair anymore, he lives in a different country, but i do worry that she talks to him still. She says ahe doesn't but I don't know that. It's my worst sticking point. I don't worry about her finding someone else, she's already done that, I'm just lucky enough that she's still giving us a small chance. I have to believe she values our marriage still. I'm pretty sure we'll be back on track again one day. I don't know that for sure but it's the only way I can act right now. She's still here so i still have a chance.

The woman I was kissing and hugging a year ago is gone right now. What I have is a lost, angry, hurt and confused person living with me. I'm trying to help her find her way home to me. She hasn't told me she trying to save us but I can't think about that. I can only control myself. If sometime in the future she decides she's had enough and leaves, i can do nothing about it. But I can control myself, how I act and how I treat her, that's what she's seeing. If she's looking with a clear mind and heart, I truly believe she'll see our marriage as the right thing to do. I'm a good person, a good husband and a great father. Any woman would love to get a crack at me but I only care for one. I screwed that up in the past so I hope it's not too late for me, for us.

It's hard work, worse than anything I ever imagined. But I know what I want and I'm fighting for it. I'm pretty sure she knows it too but isn't willing to open up yet. It takes time to build trust again. Time is the only thing I have right now so that's what I can give her. She tells me she needs time to heal from everything. What she did, what i did and the things we've done together to demolish our marriage. Don't ever think you messed it up alone, it takes two to make it, it takes two to break it.

I wish you luck, i'll keep checking up on you.

Thank you Greengables. I thought that if she could see I was moving on and she really wanted me but just needed a break she then might decide to take me back before she ends up losing me for good.
This is really frustrating because she wont say what her true intentions are. When she is angry I ask her if we will ever get back together and she says "Probably not" or "not likely, I dont ever want to go back to that again" but never says definitely not. But then when she calms down later she says things like "We just need a break from each other" or when I say Im trying to change so I can be a better husband and hope we can get back together she says "Well you've got a long way to go".
I just wish I knew what she was really thinking. She told my sister at the start that she would like to work things out with me one day if I changed and she could see that I had but told her not to tell me. But Im not sure if she just told my sister that knowing she would tell me to help ease my pain at the time. My sister says there is no point asking her if she will get back with me one day because she doesnt know herself and even if she does say NO WAY EVER it doesnt mean she wont change her mind one day down the track. I just wish my mind would accept that and stop dreaming up future scenarios of her with another partner that might never happen.

Yes I did tend towards controlling behaviour, that was half my problem. I always tried to control her and make her do what I wanted. I now realise after reading many books etc that my arguing and anger when I didn't get my own way was all part of my controlling behaviour and I need to stop it. I will give her space and be as nice as posssible. I have told her that I am seeing a physcologist and reading lots of books, this website etc because I want to change myself. Ive admitted to her where I went wrong and what my problems are. Ive told her that I can change because a lot of what I did is just bad habits and habits can be changed if your taught how to do it. She is very sceptical though and told my sister that she doesnt think I can ever change as its just my personality and Ive always been like that. I hope shes wrong and that I can change.
She said dont do it for me do it for yourself, but I told her Im doing it for me so I can be a better father to our children and to hopefully one day be a better husband for her. Thank you so much for all your help on this. Everything you say makes sense its as if you know me and her personally. I just wish the pain would go away. its not just her I miss its my family her family and our friends as well. I dont have many friends having just moved back here 6 months ago. Since being here Ive spent a lot of my time only doing things with her and her friends and not bothering catching up with my old friends. That was another problem she had with our relationship. She didnt like how I did that and said that I was high maintenance. She would say to me to go out and catch up with my friends but I only wanted to do what she was doing and that hasnt helped one bit.

Most people who are controlling are usually afraid. They are afraid of abandonment or not getting what they need.

Do you have a solid spiritual life? A belief structure, even if it's atheism, can help you realize that even if you don't get what you want in the short term, you can get what you need. I personally found a lot of solace in the phrase "Let go, and let God." It helped me accept that I couldn't force my ex to want to make the changes necessary to keep me. I had to trust God, and sometimes, God's answer was "No."

BTW, your sister is a wise woman. Your wife probably doesn't know herself what to do. She probably wants to divorce you, but she has kids and she wants what's best for them. Plus, she took a vow and that counts for something. Yet, she thinks she can't be her full self if she's with you.

more later.

So, your real growth challenge here is not to get her back, but to let go. Concentrate only own your own actions and yourself. Stop worrying about the "What ifs".

Consider what are your expectations, your assumptions, and your boundaries. Learn to recognize others' boundaries. This will dramatically change your life and your relationships.

I believe people can change into who they were always meant to be. You were not created to be someone who yells and controls and is a pain in the rear to live with.

Change is not always easy. It feels uncomfortable. It's scary. It's often really unpleasant and exhuasting because we have to do a lot of introspection and look at stuff we don't want to. Along the way, we have other people subtly trying to get us back into the old behavior patterns. They don't want the "new" you because they knew what to expect with the old you. New is scary, even when it's good. So, beware of people trying to reestablish the old patterns. In spite of all that, changing and growing as a person is worth it.

And you can do it.

What I found in my own marriage is that AO/verbal abuse is cyclic in nature. We try to be good, but we really don't know how to process our anger in a healthy way, so it builds up and builds up, until finally we have another AO again, and often during an AO things are brought up that happened years ago and things are thrown in that have nothing to do with the reason for the AO in the first place.

All that while that we're being good and keeping ourselves in control, we think the marriage is going well. What really has to happen is that the changes we make have to be thought of as permanent. If we figure we'll only be good until things get better, and then slack off again, well...there goes that cyclic thing again - that dance.

And then we're miserable and disappointed in ourselves, and in my case, was often so, so, so discouraged and despondent. Enough so that...frankly...if the right man came along and treated me well afterwards - as emotionally vulnerable as I was - well, I might not still be married; that's for sure.

So...my own, personal advice (for what it's worth) is to tell yourself that you're going to make changes, but that they're going to be permanent. The AOs are not going to be part of your relationships ever again. Instead, when you're upset about something, you realize it - don't sweep it under - and you say to yourself "I think I'm upset about this right now. I need to talk about it so that it doesn't get worse." And then you begin your statement with "I feel..." "I feel upset when there is food left in the sink." "I feel angry when you don't let me know that you'll be home late."

AOs send people into withdrawal. It's a protective mechanism that can lead to no good, yet you cannot blame them for doing it. It's human nature to protect yourself. And...when a person is in withdrawal, that means they are disconnected from you on an emotional, loving level. And...since it's human nature to need human interaction, attention, etc., it could very well lead to an affair of some type. Which is what sounds like happened in your case.

It is not human nature, in my opinion, for a woman not to be affectionate and loving unLESS she's in withdrawal. So, the real question here is WHY has she been in withdrawal - NOT why is she not loving or affectionate.

And some final advice from my corner - apologize profusely. Validate her fears, her misgivings, her reluctance to trust you. Accept it, and tell her, remind her, that you're working hard to change how you deal with anger because you don't want to be that kind of husband or father again, that you love her, believe in the marriage, and want her back in your life so that you can raise your children together and grow old together.

Basically, you need to fix your end of things. If it were a broken down furnace to keep your family warm, you'd fix it. Well...this is a character flaw, and you need to address it - so that you can optimize your chances of putting your family back together again.

I think you were born perfect, but for whatever reason - your upbringing, unfortunate circumstances in your formative years, or whatever - you were indulged or tolerated to have the AOs. Because...with certain personalities types, AOs do get a reaction. Now, you're realizing for the first time that there can be very serious repercussions, that it doesn't work with everyone. And...because it involves someone you love dearly, it's very difficult to accept that she isn't accepting it like everyone else did.

Think of it this way - her NOT accepting it is probably the greatest gift she can give you and the children at this point because prior to, you had no incentive to change; now you do.

And...regardless of if this very important change helps to save your marriage or not, you do need to maintain it because your performance and success as a partner in child rearing, father, or future spouse to someone else will depend on it.

I have just one dissent from Soolee's post.

I do believe good can come from emotional withdrawl from someone who commits angry outbursts that rise to the level of mistreatment or, worse, abuse. It does to a minor degree protect the person on the receiving end. In some instances, the ability to be in withdrawal rather than conflict may be what keeps verbal abuse from escalating to physical abuse. Being in withdrawal may be what helps an abused spouse gain the distance to get out of the relationship, and I can't find that bad.

On the other hand, we should probably realize that I'm coming from a biased position. Withdrawal saved me emotionally, otherwise, I'd be permenently depressed, insane, dead or incarcerated for murder.

I should clarify what I meant by the following:

"AOs send people into withdrawal. It's a protective mechanism that can lead to no good, yet you cannot blame them for doing it. It's human nature to protect yourself. And...when a person is in withdrawal, that means they are disconnected from you on an emotional, loving level. And...since it's human nature to need human interaction, attention, etc., it could very well lead to an affair of some type. Which is what sounds like happened in your case."

I think withdrawal means something; it's an indicator that something not so good is going on. Even if it's apathy, boredom, etc., and not abuse - it's still 'not so good.' It's absolutely useful in terms of de-escalating a would-be abusive altercation (either emotional or physical), and in that situation I can see it being (like I said previously) a protective mechanism.

What I meant, was that it's a symptom that someone or both of you is not doing something right - you're either hurting someone or you aren't investing enough of your time and effort into the marriage.

thank you Dino69 Soolee and Greengables again for all of that advice. Ive read it all over and over again to try and grasp all the concepts and ideas you mention. I had a breakthrough today. The wife called me about a meeting she had at school and we started talking about things. She asked if I could fix something for her so I called around after work and she asked me to stay for dinner. The kids were wrapped to have me there and she even seemed happy to be able to chat to me. I told her that I was changing and getting help to be a better person and to hopefully one day fix our marriage. I also told her that I understand she doesnt think I will ever change and that I was willing to wait until she herself noticed the changes in me. She didnt say much but I could just tell from her silence that she was thinking about it. At one stage she just said that "we had a long way to go" which to me is better than "We will never get back together" like she has said in the past in anger.
I had my second counselling session today with the physcologist and it went really well. She too is confident that I can get rid of this really bad anger habit I have.
I think today I managed to make some rather large deposits in her LB and by helping her out with some things she needed I met her EN's.
Thanks again for all your help an advice. its been invaluable in getting me this far in only a few short days. This time last week she hated me and was going to get an intervention order out against me and tonight Im having dinner with her and the kids for the first time in over 6 weeks.I know its a long way to go yet but Im getting there slowly.

Well its been one month on and I thought I would share whats happened since then especially to those that offered such great advice.
I tried to give her some space but made a big mistake a few weekends ago. Ive been on Zoloft for about a month now and went to a 40th birthday party and got horribly drunk. The effects of the alcohol the next day made me extremly depressed and I ended up calling her and crying and begging her to give me one more chance. She said no she would never want to get back with me.
A few days later when the alcohol effects wore off and the zoloft kicked back in again I decided that I would need to move on. I had chatted to a woman at the party that Ive known for years but havent seen in ages. I wanted to get her phone number just to keep in touch. Anyway my wife found out about this and got incredibly jealous. She said she told me it was over for good so I would change for the right reasons and it had back fired on her. We had a long chat and I went around and had coffee with her. She said she was glad to talk to me and wasnt so angry anymore.
A few days later I invited her to the movies and took a day off work. Her friend interstate is dying and has 4 weeks to live so I brought her an airline ticket to go and see her and said I would move into her house to look after the kids. We spent the day together and took the kids shopping that night and had a really good day. When I left she gave me a hug and a kiss.

Friday night I was going to stay at her house as she was going out. The next day I would be dropping her off at the airport. She text me at work and said she wasnt going out anymore but I could still come around for dinner if I wanted to and stay the night. I did stay, slept in her bed with her and we ended up making love. It was fantastic.
She has said that after I had been gone for a few weeks she finally realised that she did love me and wanted to get back with me but she just wasnt ready yet. She is now interstate with her friend and phoned me last night crying.
She said she just wants the old me back again and needs more time. Im expecting that when she comes back in 11 days I will have to move back to my mums house but I am also quietly confident that she will want me to stay. She now says that she loves me too when I say it to her which is something she hadn't said in quite awhile. I would say I am making huge LB deposits and hope that I can stay when she gets back. Ive really enjoyed being back in the house and with the kids. I just hope that she wants me to stay. But I am willing to move back to mums if she still needs more time. So only time will terll now. Thanks once again for all the advice given.

That is terrific, Trum. Thanks for the update.

If she does ask you to stay, no backsliding. These changes you've made are FOREVER!!!!

Do you know what will happen if you slip in the old behavior patterns? Your wife is become disillusioned and she'll kick you out again. Only the next time, any changes you make for the better will be viewed with deepest cynicism. Your wife will believe you only made the changes to get her back into the same piss-poor marriage.

Dr. Harley recommends happy spouses fill in the Emotional Needs questionnaire and the Love Buster questionnaire once a year as a check up. What's changed? What hasn't changed, but should?

And it may be a good idea to get some counseling with an MC or your pastor, rabbi, mullah, whatever. Counseling to make sure you all keep on the right track.

Oh, and I'm sure this is totally obvious, but just in case it isn't. Get rid of the lady's phone number. LOL.
Many good wishes for you and your family.