As in we choose to love someone, therefore our emotions show it or we show that emotion.

I didn't show that emotion the way she viewed it as being love. 5 Love Languages everyone, read it and find your spouses.

I have to show her I want to fight for it don't I? That I want to fight to bring back our love and bond and to not get divorced. For me to allow it to happen is saying I want it and I don't. I want to respect her feelings but I want my marriage to live, grow and to be even stronger now.

ezb,

You asked what I was learning from your thread:

Your actions/reactions to conflict are/were almost identical to my H's actions/reactions currently. I can't get my H to express any of his inner feelings/emotions. Oh, I get a lot of ILY's and "you're hot" stuff, but that's just surface...I'm beginning to feel like I'm living with a stranger and can't do it forever.

I'm hoping to find a way to break through to him...what could your W have done/said that would get that barrier down? Why were/are you afraid of addressing issues in your marriage? Did you realize you were throwing the baby (marriage) out with the bathwater (conflict) when you withdrew from your wife when she tried to communicate?

edited to add:
I always felt like he thought I was the one doing the controlling/manipulating when he withdrew (during my attempts to communicate); it never occurred to me that withdrawal was a controlling/manipulating maneuver.

Also, was separation/divorce the only thing that got through? What would have been a less extreme, yet effective, message your wife could have used?

I don't really know if she could have done anything different other then to maybe write me a VERY stern letter letting me know her next step was divorce and that step was about to be taken. She tried to do that but unfortunately I didn't realize the true meaning until a couple months ago. I didn't realize I was doing that no. It started out as not wanting it to escalate because when we did have issues our feelings were opposite on her anger emotion level would raise and I in turn would withdraw (at the time I saw it as taking a timeout). The problem there was I always let it effect everything else until the issue was settled and I soon became unconsiously aware (no excuses) that when I did that she would give in. That is why I realize I'm a controlling and maanipulating person and I'm working hard at changing that.



You felt that? You have to be very careful there. You have a right to your feelings but it doesn't mean that he is ddoing it on purpose or meaning to give you that feeling. Regardless though you need to communicate that feeling and try to make him just listen and respect and not make excuses (I've had a VERY hard time with that but getting better each day I understand how aa controller and maanipulator works). It doesn't mean hes doing it on purpose. I in fact learned how to do it and my wife giving in helped me along (not placing blame on her because all she was trying to do was to love me and fill my bank).


I don't know if it was the only way or not and can't really say it's the only thing that would haave worked but each of us is different. I wish she would have wrote me a VERY stern letter but that didn't happen so now we're at where we are and to even say that really is trying to place blame but I know my frame of mind is the blame is mine and mine alone.

Well what do you do when you LB by contacting her on a NC day to simply ask if you can make a special dinner and spend quality time with her instead of having 3 sessions within 4 days time? I thought a little break for monday would be special and was going to make a nice dinner and instead it turns into an LB.

Too much of a lesson goes too far sometimes when your working your tail off to change things.

She tells me last night she wishes I would have contested the divorce to show her I wanted to fight for it. At the time she told me it just needed to be and I would only push her further if I didn't sign the papers. So I signed them not wanting to hurt her more. Now theres a settlement to sign and she tells me the same things except shes saying she doesnt want me to fight it now. That when she comes back it needs to be on her terms. Everything is on her terms right now though, everything and I havent complained about that.

Well I can't force her to be in love with me again , I can't force her to stay married by fighting for it, I can't force her to want to come back. All I can do is change me and thats what I will do.

One thing...everything is NOT on her terms right now...what you agree to is about you...

If agreeing to what you don't agree to is what you've done, undo what you can...for you have betrayed yourself. What you did before based on her possible response, was betrayal, too. Went against the code you have now.

Listen and repeat clears up this confusion...you hear her wishing...that's from ourselves as children...wishing for what is not...doesn't mean you haven't fought, aren't fighting...means she chooses not to see and is expressing her wishes.

You make sure you do as well. For we can learn to let go when others' betray us, much harder, longer and more difficult to do so where we did by choice to ourselves.

Stand for your beliefs and let go the outcome. You can do this.

LA

I hear all your saying LA. This is the foggy part though. She says she sees my efforts and their good. That I'm working on the right things and focusing on that change. Shes also opening up her emotions now. She just doesn't believe that it will stay that way right now. I offer everything for her viewing that I'm doing which I believe to be the right thing to do so she can see the positive things. She said in 2 weeks she might or might not re evaluate the situation due to positive efforts and consider options to divorce or try to put it off. But she also said today that by not signing them I will prove I'm still the same by not giving her what she needs and wants right now. She also said last night "WHEN I come back it will be when I'm ready to". I just don't know if the word "when" was an indication or fog.

You've got a great ear for fog babble.

Not signing them today is standing for your marriage...and you understand she doesn't see it that way.

You look forward to her re-evaluation--you value her input...you're just gonna work on your stuff, anyway.

Listen and repeat: I hear you fear the future, me reverting. I understand. I know that it's up to you what you choose to believe or not based on right now--it's all we have. I'm with you."

Doesn't say she's right, wrong or nuts. Says what she says...and you do NOT agree that divorcing is healthy...and you don't agree that you will change back, slack off, revert...nobody knows the future until it becomes the present...you staying in the present usually is what turns changes in actions into habit...through awareness.

She chooses HER perception...what she views stuff as...validate her choices..."I hear you're perceiving..." because that clarifies not that YOU'RE doing, she's perceivng.

All you're doing is not aiding the divorce because you're standing for your marriage. Smile. You rock.

About perceiving you not giving her what she needs right now (from her old resentments and your withdrawal) "I hear you saying this reminds you of our dance...where you ask and I hear demand and withdrawal...play you, control you. I am so sorry for each time I did that. I made my choices based on your possible response through my own assumptions...wasn't honesty, had no integrity, wasn't from my code. I won't do that again. I respect you are choosing your actions and I'm choosing mine...and I'm not basing mine on my marriage only...to act from love, not fear and control."

See, she can perceive that you haven't changed...you are not making destroying your marriage easier...which is her wish...and if she said prove you've changed, shoot me up with heroin...you wouldn't do that either. She is reacting to her feelings...you are acting from your beliefs.

"When you choose to come back, you're saying it will be because you want to, is that correct?"

Listen and repeat...gives her room to confirm or clarify further...don't bank on her foggy words...hear the wishfulness...and fantasy. See, YOU know we don't do anything we don't want to do...so saying she'll only come back when she wants implies she believes you have the power to make her do so before she wants...not by her choice.

For you to know, not to educate...listen and repeat to clarify to yourself so you don't slip into focusing on her truth as the truth...why you zoomed in on the "when"...and wondered if it was an "if"...

Get your hands off her stuff...

See, it's not parroting...you would be surprised by what you wrote here that you believe she said...and it may be off because it went from her filter, to your filter, out your filter to mine...like playing that old telephone game...filters matter.

When I listen and repeat with filter, I gotta know parts of mine, "When you said, I heard you're considering returning to our marriage some day." You're not there yet...more practice controlling your hopper, separating her truth from the truth (she's saying one thing and doing another)...for your own clarity.

You will get there...respect will become habit of perspective...and perception...I promise. Respect is NOT admiration...Respect is knowing she is able and equal...as are you...she is solely responsible for her stuff...as you are yours. Inherent responsibility in being human. And her actions are hers...yours are yours.

LA

LA

ezb,

Thank you for your feedback on my situation. I'm considering a letter. I did give him one (a loving one though) two years ago after I got the ILYBNILY speech. I send him e-mails/letters occasionally about smaller issues, but they're pretty much read and put on the back burner. I am not ready to follow through if I mention extreme measures, but if things aren't working better when I am ready, I'll probably do it.

ps,
I'm sorry for threadjacking and will stop re-directing this to my sit.

Thanks again LA.

One other thing that has stuck with me (I know I'm looking for hope though) is that she also said the other night that we can always get remarried and its cheaper then divorce. The topic there was that if we go before the judge in a couple weeks and say that we need more time to discover this is the right course and he doesn't agree he can dismiss the case and if it doesn't work out we'll have to start over again. Valid point but still scary. Either way though if she wants to be free of me I can't stop that all I can do is change and try my best to get us back to where we were before (which is my goal).

Bring,

NP on the jacking this is helping me also to understand the process my wife went thru which I feel I need to understand that also so I can learn it and learn to see the signs and things she did to try to improve it and wake me up. I feel this will greatly help me to make my changes more permanent which right now is the opsticle.

Please take into consideration I don't know your full story but if you have been writing loving letters for a couple years stating your case and they always get put on the back burner here is my suggestion:

Take those letters and give them to him again all at once with dates included as to far as when you gave them. Then write another letter stating this is what you have been trying and this is how long you have been trying to do it. State what he has done to try to improve things and let him know if those things were right or wrong, if it was what you were looking for or wanting, how it has or has not helped and what you do need and want to be satisfactory. If he sees altogether how long you have been trying then maybe he will wake up. Give it a little time but not too long and if he doesn't wake up then I think a stern letter stating your intent that you have had enough might be in order. Be prepared to stick to what you say though.

Just my humble thoughts from the other end of the stick.

ezb,

Great suggestion on bundling the previously written letters. I think that will help me review, from a more logical standpoint, as well...to see if what I was bringing up was reasonable and if he did eventually address issues by action instead of conversation.

BTW. I'm reading another book about improving your marriage w/o talking about it. It states that when a woman brings up relationship talk, a man (usually) hears that he's inadequate and feels shame...he may withdraw, act out in anger, etc. A woman reacts to his reaction with anxiety and fear which is what triggers her need to talk in the first place. It turns into a viscious cyle.

You mean you will look and see if your feelings are valid enough? Your feelings are always valid and reasonable keep in mind. Not knowing what they are maybe you brought a bunch of things up that might have been petty? Maybe bringing those up were more a product of other missing things?
[/quote]


You are exactly right to me Bring. At times when I withdrew it was because I felt inadequate but more times then not it was my "unconsious" controlling and manipulating. It happened in ours and effected everything. It's a cycle that only gets worse too as it goes along. To quote LA ....... actions cause emotions and reactions cause even more. How do you end that cycle is the key. IMHO(bare in mind my current situation is a mess so I probably have no room to talk) the only way to end the cycle is if both spouses see it for what it truly is, talk about it (in non threatening and non defensive ways) and implemment the changes that need to talk place by both parties involved. Those changes could come more from one side or the other and it has to be a careful thing once it gets to a certain point in things but it can be done. There obviously was loving communication at some point in time so there can always be again it just needs to be wanted by both parties is all.

Yeah I'm full of good ideas now but it doesn't look to be doing me any good. I'am helping my neighbor see all of the issues clearly in his marriage which has in turn helped me to understand better the other side of the coin. It's made a big change in me so now I just have to get comfortable with the new me.


Bring,

One other thing you might want to do is compare those actions or talk to what his actions and talk are now. If they are the same then that would typically mean there was nothing learned or really tried. If on the other hand things are different (judge the level of difference) and there truly is an effort then you should figure out whether that should come into play or not. The past is just that, the past and we can't change it. What we can change is the here and now with positive efforts and the future. The only thing it has to do with the here and now is if it repeats itself. Sure it effects emotions and feelings but to dwell on the past actually being the present if it's not actually the case or if there is a dramatic change for good is to only live in the past and I think we all know that doesn't do any good. We do need to all talk about the past to better understand it from both points of view and in order to be able to learn from it, correct the mistakes, put it away and move forward. Thats what I'm trying to do to the best of my ability and it is something that has really built up and haunted my marriage. I never before FULLY realized the impact on the future of not getting things out with conversation and healing and to move forward in a positive way. Both parties involved have to do that in order for it to work.

Well folks it looks like it's going to be a rough 2 weeks. Doesn't seem that anything I do or say anymore means anything. Guess we'll find out on the 10th.

Well this definately a sleepless night. She "made" me sign the divorce settlement tonight. I guess it and just leaving her alone is the only thing left I can give her to show that I care about her feelings and I'm listening to her. She also doesn't believe I know how to love and can give her the love she deserves. I did that before and can do it again but even better now because I understand so much more. Shes done nothing but move further away from me slowly and surely. I guess I pushed her even further by contacting her. I'll just have to leave her alone now and see what happens. I can't continue to keep forcing all I see, know and realize now on her. If she can't see it thru the fog and from going by the past then it does no good to show her all I've learned and em changing. It might even be too late now to even give her space to think and have it do any good but it being number 1 on her list then it has to happen now or never I guess and should have long ago. It's just been hard wanting to communicate all I've learned and see now and her feedback (feelings on it) is so important to me that I crave it and want it so bad I can't give her what shes asking for and it makes her feel manipulated. I just feel the papers I gave to her tonight (the worksheet I posted to start this thread, the couple seminars I asked if she wanted to go to, the step program I'm doing, the questions I asked and sent her) there's so many things I have been doing and showing and they just fall by the wayside and unless I bring them up again they just fade away and i never hear about them. Does she not understand that when that happens it just makes me feel this is all for nothing? That she just brushes it off and it does no good? How would giving her space do any good too? That's what's so frustrating. She even said tonight in counseling that all the good I do means nothing because of 1 LB I keep doing. The MC had to correct her on that one and I'm glad he did because I would have never seen it I've been so focused on me being totally wrong and trying to change it. LISTEN, REPEAT and CLARIFY.

I guess i don't understand also why my WAW has such great support for this site but looking back i don't see a time when actually went to plan B. I don't know there's so many things shooting thru my head since all this started I can't sort anything out anymore. I have a few good days and it all seems so clearer and then WAM I fall apart because she can't accept my love right now.

Yeah it's a really bad night folks and with now less then 2 weeks away it will probably get nothing but worse. All I can do now is read, learn and leave her alone to gather her feelings if she has any good ones left for me now.

Ok here goes.

Positive things in my life right now.

1. My wife still loves me.
2. I'm still married to the love of my life.
3. My wife is going to counseling and coming for sessions to work on things.
4. I have 3 beautiful children that love, want and need me.
5. I have family that loves me and misses and loves my wife no matter what.
6. I have good friends that have been there for me in all of this.
7. I have a decent job that pays well and a home.
8. I have learned a lot of things already from material that I have read and have a lot more to read on love and how to show it and communicate it with actions.
9. I'm learning how to not be controlling or manipulating.
10. My wife has not totally shut the door on us or a future together.
11. I'm learning to make sure this never happens again no matter what happens now.
12. I'm learning a lot about my true inner self.
13. I've learned if you have something special in your life that you never turn your back on it or take it for granted.
14. I'm learning the hard way that patience is a virtue.
15. Each day it gets harder but I'm making it thru the days.
16. I've learned to appreciate the little things in life and to cherish and hold dear what you do have.
17. My wife has said she wants to date and will still see me.
18. I've learned just how much I love her and how much she has really meant to my heart and my soul and to my kids.
19. I've been strong enough to say to myself and everyone else that my marriage is at this point because of my failures in the past and I've been strong enough to work on those things.
20. I've learned that failures in the past do not mean they will happen in the future.

ez, what is the 1 LB she cited?

I'm not giving her time and space to sort thru things and she feels that is being manipulating and controlling. I don't mean to disrespect that feeling she has. I hate it when I do it.

I could list a whole bunch of excuses why but I contact her on NC days and then after I look back and I can see why she feels it's manipulating and controlling. All I'am is scared and there's so many changes I'm working on and I just want to show my true and deep love for her and all the realizations I have now before she says goodbye forever and it's too late. I already messed up once or things would be much different when I didn't contest the divorce. How could I contest it I was reeling so bad from not knowing it was coming I didn't know what to do let alone which way was up. I've poured my heart and soul into this for 3 months now and I keep doing it and it keeps getting worse and she keeps getting further away all the while I'm making changes for the better in me so we can someday be together again and loving even better then we did before. I guess just like she did and I hurt her even more. I'm so finished with the hurt but she can't believe in that.

I have to look at the positive things and just leave her alone. Less then 2 weeks now and all I can do is work hard and pray and leave her alone.

I poured my heart into a project I made for her over the holiday weekend. I spent almost all weekend on it. I hope she sees the unconditional love I put into it. I even signed the papers last night and still went right home and finished it for her. Heart broken the whole time just like I've done to her heart so many times before. I just want that chance to make it right because I know deep down and I believe she does too that we will never find that deep love we had with anyone else but we can find it with us again.