Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#2062224 05/22/08 11:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,928
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,928
How many of us really stop to think about HOW Satan works to destroy marriages and to push us toward sinful lives?

I've been pondering how best to describe what how I think Satan works, and I finally turned to the ultimate source for enlightenment.

As I was reading Proverbs, it really hit me that the description of an adulterous woman and a malicious man are also excellent descriptions of how Satan works, too. I'm sure there are many more apt descriptions, but these are the ones I have found thus far:

Proverbs 5:3-6

"3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey,
and her speech is smoother than oil;

4 but in the end she is bitter as gall,
sharp as a double-edged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps lead straight to the grave.

6 She gives no thought to the way of life;
her paths are crooked, but she knows it not."

Proverbs 26:24-28

"24 A malicious man disguises himself with his lips,
but in his heart he harbors deceit.

25 Though his speech is charming, do not believe him,
for seven abominations fill his heart.

26 His malice may be concealed by deception,
but his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.

27 If a man digs a pit, he will fall into it;
if a man rolls a stone, it will roll back on him.

28 A lying tongue hates those it hurts,
and a flattering mouth works ruin."

This is what we are to do in the case of encountering an adulterous woman (or Satan, as it may be):

Proverbs 5:7-14

7 Now then, my sons, listen to me;
do not turn aside from what I say.

8 Keep to a path far from her,
do not go near the door of her house,

9 lest you give your best strength to others
and your years to one who is cruel,

10 lest strangers feast on your wealth
and your toil enrich another man's house.

11 At the end of your life you will groan,
when your flesh and body are spent.

12 You will say, "How I hated discipline!
How my heart spurned correction!

13 I would not obey my teachers
or listen to my instructors.

14 I have come to the brink of utter ruin
in the midst of the whole assembly."

My opinion? When someone whispers soothing words in your ear that seem to validate EVERY feeling you have and implies that you are a poor victim who can't help doing wrong for whatever reason, start paying attention to his/her actions. Watch for dissension that trails in the wake of this person. Also watch for wrongful actions perpetrated by the friends of this person. The friends may also have been fooled by the person.

Proverbs 21:8

"8 The way of the guilty is devious,
but the conduct of the innocent is upright."


To protect yourself, PRAY with a sincere and open heart, that God will grant you the gift of discernment...the ability to recognize evil.

God grants us the power to rebuke Satan. There is one catch: While Satan can whisper into our ears in such a way that we believe those words are our own thoughts, he can NOT read our minds. Rebuke Satan aloud, and in the Name of Jesus Christ. Command him to leave your presence. I am positve that, if Satan is presently there, you will FEEL him leave; he has NO CHOICE but to do so!

Satan DOES fear God! Be still, and LISTEN to GOD!

(Even if you are not a Christian and don't believe in Satan, these verses are still a description of someone who wishes to HARM you under the guise of being helpful and kind to you.)


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,643
Q
Member
Offline
Member
Q
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,643
Thank you Lady,

With out a doubt, I believe we are in a spiritual battle between evil and good and I for one don't take it lightly.

Not because of just my M, but me as my ownself.


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
Quote
To protect yourself, PRAY with a sincere and open heart, that God will grant you the gift of discernment...the ability to recognize evil.

Lady_Clueless - do you think discernment is a gift or might it be a promise given to someone who "loves the Lord with all your mind?" In other words, what is it that "informs" our hearts and wills?

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would seem to indicate that everyone has such knowledge, but that "discernment" may be corrupted and twisted by our "sin nature."

If that is true, how does one discern "truth" from "falsehood?"

If part of that answer is to know what God has said about something, what God considers to be "right or wrong" behavior, how might we know what the "definitive answer" is to situations we are presented with or desires we may struggle with and what "standards" are operative regardless of what we, or anyone else, says?




Joined: May 2008
Posts: 464
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 464
LC...AMEN!!!

I have read those same scriptures many times in the past 20 days of my WW's A. Although you were applying this text figuratively as to how Satan works, I am forced to apply them literally to my current mess.

It is EXTREMELY difficult to view the person you have loved and cherished through this perpective, though not quite as hard to apply these truths to OM.

If it weren't for the fact that I am now in Plan B, I would email your entire posting to WW for her to read. Yes, I know that right now it would not help matters in any way. But, I do know that my WW knows the truths of the Bible, and that, one day, she will realize her sin (R or not!).

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by ForeverHers
If that is true, how does one discern "truth" from "falsehood?"

If part of that answer is to know what God has said about something, what God considers to be "right or wrong" behavior, how might we know what the "definitive answer" is to situations we are presented with or desires we may struggle with and what "standards" are operative regardless of what we, or anyone else, says?

FH, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I do believe that the definitive answer ALWAYS comes from the Word of God and everything is to be tested by His Word.

I also believe that some people are better equipped at discerning the presence of evil than others. I believe this was a gift given to me after I grew to love the Lord with all my heart and mind. I did not have that gift before then.

What are your thoughts on this?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
Very interesting.


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 213
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 213
Quote
I've been pondering how best to describe what how I think Satan works, and I finally turned to the ultimate source for enlightenment.

With all due respect, I don't accept this. I cannot agree on blaming Satan or some personification of Evil as being responsible for a spouse's infidelity. This just gives the WS a cop-out, of "The devil made me do it," a la Jim Bakker.

The only one responsible for an A is WS.

It's called free will. It's what got Adam and Eve booted out of the garden. The serpent may have offered the fruit, but they chose to eat of it.


BH (me) age 55
FWW age 52
married 26 years
First DDay 2/23/08, 1 day after PA began, ~1-1/2 months after EA began
Multiple failed attempts at NC
confirmable NC since 1/23/09


(D 31; S 29) my first marriage
(D 27; S 25) her first marriage
Galoot #2062418 05/22/08 03:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
I agree Galoot that it is very much a CHOICE to push God out of your life through sinning-Choosing to follow your own sinful will and nature instead of God...Once that choice is made, there is an ABSENCE of God...Just like darkness is an absence of light...When you are stumbling along choosing to eliminate God from your life, evil is right there...there is nothing else...We all serve one of two here...

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 16,412
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 16,412
This is an interesting subject. I have been reading alot about "discernment" lately....it seems to be popping up all over the place. I keep reading about the difference between "judgement" and "discernment" and what <appears> to be (but is not) contradictory messages in the Bible about "judging".

We are told to "judge not":

Rom 14:1,4-5,10,12-13 (NIV) Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters... Who are you to judge someone else's servant?.. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind... You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat... So then, everyone will give an account of himself to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another...

But we are also told to "judge" as well:

Mat 7:15-16,22-23 (NIV) "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

These passages appear to be at odds with eachother....but when I recognize the different kinds of "judging", the message is much clearer <for me>.

I ask myself....what kind of judging does God want me to do (discernment) and what kind of judging does he want me to avoid (blame, condemnation). I know through scripture that only God can see into the "heart" (and that kind of judgment is for Him alone and must be done with a sinless soul), but he does charge me to objectively look at the actions of others and decide if I want those people in my life or if I want to reject them.

Writers and Theologians describe the difference between judgement and discernment in many ways, and here are some of the short snippets I have saved:

Quote
# Suppose you think that your have "discerned" something. A good test of whether this "realization" is from above or from below is: what you feel. Does your discernment lead you to help, heal, love, share? Does it lead towards purity of the body, towards Christ? Then the Holy Spirit may have given you a taste of His perspective: the truth, with love. Your actions will prove the validity of what you think, and deeper fellowship and/or humility will be the result.

# But if what you feel in your heart as a result of the discernment is superiority, scandal, bitterness, or a desire to detach yourself from the body of Christ, then it is not of God. Whether it is correct, or not, is not the issue: The "knowledge" comes from below, not above--as judged by its fruit. God looks at the heart. If what you "know" about others isn't useful to them or you, forget what you "know". It's poison.

Quote
Being judgmental becomes a vicious cycle. If a person judges others, you can bet they're doing the same thing to themselves. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to find a target to shame. As people who are interested in developing spiritually, we don't want to judge others, and we certainly want to stop judging ourselves. But too many people on the spiritual path swing too far in the other direction, and don't utilize their God-given ability to discern what is better for them and what is not so great. There actually is a difference between judgement and discernment.

Whereas judgement assigns an emotional value on something, discernment is when an individual assesses a situation or a person objectively and decide that they don't want to participate.


Quote
Let’s be clear here and differentiate between judgment and discernment. For me, being judgmental comes from an emotion-based, negative opinion that we tend to form with the “I’m right and your wrong mindset.” As for discernment: this skill is used when you choose to make an informed decision from an observer’s point of view. You seek to honor yourself and learn to let your inner voice/intuition guide you through a love-based filter, in your decision making process.”

Quote
"Judgment" is for implied purpose of determining superior or inferior destiny, of acceptance or rejection. Discernment in itself is not the same as judgment, for to discern implies that you only see "what is." To judge implies that you pronounce a sentence affecting the determination of where that concept, idea, or entity is to be placed. Judgment rejects or accepts, or sends into damnation or salvation, that judgment carries with it a threat to the thing to the individual, to the concept, so when people practice being judgmental, rather than discerning, they tend to create separateness.


I especially like the distinctions that Chip Bell makes:

Quote
Two Kinds of Judgment

1. Condemning Judgment vs. Discerning Judgment

2. Quick vs. Careful

3. Focused on Others’ Faults vs. Examining Self

4. Generalizations vs. Individual

5. Gossip / Assumptions / Appearances
vs. Benefit of the Doubt / Observations / Questions

6. Legalistic vs. Gracious

7. Motives vs. Actions


I think good judgment/discernment is incredibly valuable. But it's very easy to miss the distinction between discernment and condemnation. When fault finding and suspicion becomes the main focus....we're focussing on weaknesses....we're focussing on problems instead of solutions. Discernment requires a level of detachment that gives up any need to feel superior. The Bible makes a distinction between judging man's actions (past and present) as "satanic" and judging their hearts (which only God has the right to do).

So when someone whispers soothing, validating, words into my ear....it's usually a friend, a caring person....or my husband smile And I appreciate it...and I'm thankful. I am discerning enough to know when someone is genuine and authentic by their "fruits" and their actions or if they are just patronizing me.

I won't rule out the presence of Satan when I suspect I'm being soothed for evil, but neither will I be paranoid that most kind people are the devil. I've been fooled by people who seem nice and aren't. I've also been fooled by people who seem "hard" and are really as sweet as can be. Appearances can be decieving....that's why careful discernment is so important.





Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
This PASSAGE is one of my favorites..it speaks to this issue

Quote
Finally be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of the dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and your feet fitted with the readiness that comes with the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of FAITH , with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one .

Ephesians 6:10-16

HEAD UP, CHEST OUT!!


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by ForeverHers
If that is true, how does one discern "truth" from "falsehood?"

If part of that answer is to know what God has said about something, what God considers to be "right or wrong" behavior, how might we know what the "definitive answer" is to situations we are presented with or desires we may struggle with and what "standards" are operative regardless of what we, or anyone else, says?

FH, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I do believe that the definitive answer ALWAYS comes from the Word of God and everything is to be tested by His Word.

I also believe that some people are better equipped at discerning the presence of evil than others. I believe this was a gift given to me after I grew to love the Lord with all my heart and mind. I did not have that gift before then.

What are your thoughts on this?

Hi Melody. I was planning on waiting for LC to respond, but I'd be happy to toss some thoughts around with you on this subject.

"Discernment" comes, imho, from two primary sources, God and experience.

With respect to God, He has revealed all that we need to know about TRUTH in His Word. That "knowledge base" is there for anyone to read, but on just that level it's not much different from any "textbook" anyone could read. The "point" of the Word of God is not that is a "textbook," though it DOES contain information, it is about a Relationship WITH God as the primary purpose of our existence.

For someone who is, first, not a born again believer, it is a "textbook of ideas" that they can choose to use or not use as they determine and "see fit" for their own life. In other words, THEY are the sovereign who determines what they want or don't want, what they will do or not do, what standards they will adopt and which they won't and they can even "redefine" 'evil' to be whatever they want it to be or even deny that 'evil' exists.

Second, in rejecting Christ (and thereby God Himself), they go (usually) in one of two directions. The first is to "pick and choose" what "seems right" to them. They set themselves up as "the authority" and consider the commands of God to be, at best, "suggestions," because they do not recognize the right of anyone to "command" them to do or not do anything. Submitting to God is not something they are willing to do. That is the idea behind what James talked about when he said "show me your faith by what you say and I will show you my faith by what I do." There are many who claim to "know Christ," but most often they want it "on their terms" and not on God's terms. There are many who don't live each day FOR Christ and you've probably heard about things like "weekend Christians" or those who put God on a shelf and only take Him down and turn to Him when there's something they want.

The second is to embrace "humanism" and it's antecedent "evolution." "Devolving" mankind to "just another animal" that is governed NOT by any "higher authority," they see "survival of the fittest" as the "only game in town." Of course, "the fittest" is always SELF, and they appropriate to themselves the right "set their own rules" and accept or reject for themselves any "rules" from any outside source (i.e., society, culture, etc.) that they think "serves their own best interest." Rationalization and justification reign supreme, with themselves as the "final authority" on what is "right or wrong, evil or good," for themselves. If what they determine happens to be "in conflict" with someone else, that's "okay," because each individual is "evolved," a product of "random chance," and can set their own rules too. They will "band together" on some issues, but always from the perspective of "what's in it for me?" in choosing to submit to ANY form of authority that might be "outside of self."


"Experience" is what happens over the course of life. Things impact us, especially thoughts and ideas "out there" as well as actions and circumstances that impact our own lives directly. Such things as natural disasters, bad things in general, specific actions that directly affect us (like adultery, for example), etc., "present themselves" to our minds and we determine the "value" (good or bad) of each thing. One result of this assault on our minds (and don't forget that all people have a "sin-nature" that is opposed to God) is a plethora of "Worldviews" (10 primary ones) that "appeal to their minds." How they will view "good and evil," "right and wrong," will be greatly influenced by the Worldview that they THINK "makes sense" for themselves. Again, the issue here is one of "authority to decide."

I would further add that in many place in the "Free World," especially in places like the USA, there is HUGE problem of "complacency" and "tolerance." Christianity is NOT under extreme duress in America nor are believers faced with severe persecution and death. Believes become complacent and don't put on the "Full Armor of God." The Bible lays out WHAT that armor is, and God places it at our feet, BUT we have to choose to pick it up and put it on. In our "peaceful" land we get the "feeling" that we don't need it and we won't put it on so that we are ready for "battle" each and every day. We wait for the "sneak attack," and then it's too late for being defensive and "discerning." Then we react and try to pick up the pieces AFTER the attack has happened and NOW we realize that "we didn't see it coming." We didn't see it because we chose to be disobedient to God and NOT submit our lives to Him.

Discernment is closely tied to Wisdom, and wisdom comes from God.

"Discernment" is NOT limited to just believers, because a knowledge of "good and evil" was passed to all of us through Adam and Eve. The "problem" that exists is our corrupted nature that does NOT seek God on it's own. Thus we "pick and choose" some things (like the "Golden Rule" as an example) that we "like," but the reality is that our "discernment" is cloudy and we only "see" some things clearly, and usually only because they have a direct impact on us ourselves. What clouds this sort of discernment is the FACT that without God as our Lord and Savior, as THE Sovereign Lord over OUR lives, we are enticed to respond to thoughts and people who "tickle our ears" with all sorts of things, most of which are OPPOSED to "doing it God's way."

The "assault," from BOTH our own sin-nature (responsible for most of the evil that is perpetrated) and from Satan (who by and large is not very interested in those who are already his by way of rejection of Christ), as well as from a fallen and corrupted "natural world," is on our MINDS. It IS our mind that "informs our heart and will." That issue is what Jesus addressed when HE said; "Love the Lord with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. And the second commandment is LIKE the first, love your neighbor as yourself." That is NOT a command for "self-importance," it is loving as God has loved us as the model we are to emulate, in response to our growing understanding of just what it COST God to provide the possibility of a relationship with Him even though we start out in opposition to Him.

Knowledge, applied, correct and true knowledge applied, IS what results in an informed mind that CAN discern "as God does." The "measure" is always God Himself, who is holy and without sin.

Perhaps it would be helpful to cite some Scripture references to illustrate what God HAS said about these things. If you'd like some of them, let me know and I can cite the references or post the relevant passages and engage in some discussion of them.

Comments?


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,643
Q
Member
Offline
Member
Q
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,643
Hey FH,

I am not that literate on Torah as you and Mark. And certainly just for me, there are parts of what you said I could argue or discuss, but I won't. Because that would be disrespecting so many of their beliefs, not to mention it wouldn't be appropriate or the point of this.

Having said that, and having you understanding I am Jewish through and through, I really grasped most of what you are saying and thank you for writing it.

My world is so grey right now that this helps calms my soul or gives me support where I need it most. In understanding how a mind can do what it's doing.

It still breaks my heart, but your words. Very cool. Thanks.

I have one question and this really about gaining
understanding.

Quote
The "point" of the Word of God is not that is a "textbook," though it DOES contain information, it is about a Relationship WITH God as the primary purpose of our existence.

and

For someone who is, first, not a born again believer, it is a "textbook of ideas" that they can choose to use or not use as they determine and "see fit" for their own life. In other words, THEY are the sovereign who determines what they want or don't want, what they will do or not do, what standards they will adopt and which they won't and they can even "redefine" 'evil' to be whatever they want it to be or even deny that 'evil' exists.
This may be a rhetorical question or one that isn't answered easily. And I am no one to judge by any means, ok?

One of the things I struggle with in Judaism is the Reform movements ability to pick and choose on many levels, so we completely agree there. Ok... So I have my own issues regarding this. But all explanation aside, clearly G-d sets rules on how to eat, what is the explanation for mostly non-Jews to ignore those laws?







BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 464
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 464
Well said, ForeverHers, and...AMEN!

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
Quote
I am not that literate on Torah as you and Mark.

Queenie - In my opinion, you are just fine. Learning takes time and lasts a lifetime. We never really "graduate" and stop learning.


Quote
And certainly just for me, there are parts of what you said I could argue or discuss, but I won't. Because that would be disrespecting so many of their beliefs, not to mention it wouldn't be appropriate or the point of this.

I'm really not sure what you were referring to here.

But just a personal observation, if I may, not meant to offend but to bring out something that I think is a growing problem and a smokescreen, especially in America.

I am really getting sick and tired of this notion of "disrespecting" someone, with the implication that if you disagree with ANYTHING they might happen to think, that it's "bad" to do so. I strongly disagree with that notion, especially when it comes to God and the fact that HE has revealed things to us that are often diametically opposed to "what seems good to us" or opposed to permitting ourselves to "do whatever we feel like we want to do."

TRUTH and falsehood coexist as being diametrically opposed to someone. If someone were to tell me that the earth is flat, I would "disrespect" that opinion, and I would say so. If they disagreed with me or tried to say that their opinion was just a "valid" as my opinion, I would discuss the reasons why I believe what I believe and would ask ("require") that they do the same for what they believe to be 'true.' That is the NATURE of truth. Opinion does not change truth.

With respect to the topic discussion, the question is how do we discern truth and falsehood. Again, "TRUTH" is not relative. Truth is truth under all conditions, irrespective of whether or not someone "likes" the truth.

So it is with God. God IS truth. God has revealed truth to us. God has made promises to us, but only if we His children through the forgiveness of sin.

With respect to Judaism, here's something to think about and maybe you already know the "Jewish" answer; if forgiveness of sin REQUIRED animal sacrifice, according to a very specific formula and in very specific places, and since those places no longer exist, nor does the priesthood, AND if Messiah has not yet come to Israel, then how can there BE any forgiveness of any sin for the Jews of today?

You see, ultimately the issue comes back to "was Jesus who he said he was?" If not, then Christianity is wrong (worse than wrong, actually). If he was, then all other religions of the world are wrong, because God and God alone established and provided for the Messiah.

That's NOT "disrespecting" anyone, that's asking a legitimate question about a legitimate area of investigation.

There are 10 major "worldviews" of which only one believes in Monotheism. Within Monotheism there are only 3 three religions in the world that hold to a Monotheistic worldview; Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Logic is fairly simple in this case. Either ALL of them are wrong or one of them is right, but they cannot all be right because of fundamental differences in the "object" of their faith, most specifically with "who Jesus Christ is." They CAN each be "sincerely believed in" and still be "wrong" if none of them were actually TRUE. The sincerity of belief is NOT what confers truth or "rightness of belief."



Quote
But all explanation aside, clearly G-d sets rules on how to eat, what is the explanation for mostly non-Jews to ignore those laws?

I assume you are referring to "keeping kosher" here. We could spend a fair amount of time on the rules, but let's try to simplify it a little and say that the rules were primarily intended to PROTECT the Israelites from "less than sanitary" conditions and from lack of sterilization means. Certain animals were, and still are, much more prone to carrying diseases that can sicken or kill human beings. Ever notice that even meat was a "burnt" offering that was "well done" even when the Priests ate of it? Today we know that heat kills bacteria.

However, the real answer to your question as it pertains to "mostly non-Jews" is that God gave a new revelation concerning food to Peter (the apostle who was, as they all were originally, a Jew) when he thought that eating certain foods was prohibited. If you'd like I can cite or post the relevant portion of Scripture that dealt with this issue.

It was essentially the same when Jesus talked with and ate with the Samaritans. Jesus is the "bread of life" and even (at first) his own disciples didn't understand why he was talking with "forbidden" Samaritans. By the same token, Paul (Saul) who was a Pharisee of Pharisees, was specifically commissioned to take the truth of the Messiah and God to the Gentile world (of whom no "self-respecting Jew" would have any contact).

There was a "sea change," if you will with the advent of "God with us" in human form. Today, I guess the "big question" for most Jews would be "if Messiah is to come in direct descent from Abraham and David, does that "familial line" still exist? If not, what does that do the promise of God and "not keeping his promise?"

As for the differences between Reformed, Orthodox, etc., it would seem to go back to the "authority of the Word of God" and what any given individual wants to "pick and choose."

If there are more questions, or even areas of disgreement, feel free to post them as we are all, I hope, in search of THE truth, even argument, but not being "argumentative."




Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,541
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,541
Quote
If there are more questions, or even areas of disgreement, feel free to post them as we are all, I hope, in search of THE truth, even argument, but not being "argumentative."

Well, Good! I like a good discussion... especially if I can learn something from it. I’m a Christian who is new in his faith. I’ve been attending a men’s bible study group on Thursdays. We’ve been studying the book of Romans.

Quote
But all explanation aside, clearly G-d sets rules on how to eat, what is the explanation for mostly non-Jews to ignore those laws?

I have another explanation.

Here’s the basic difference: How to get to heaven based on Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism: You get to heaven (Salvation) based on your individual actions. If you follow the laws and keep all the laws... You’ll get to heaven. Moses made a covenant (contract) with God and wrote those laws down so that the Israelites would have a guidepost and know what was right and what was wrong.

Christianity: You get to heaven based on your belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. He was God’s son sent to save us. Jesus made a new covenant for us with God based on faith in Jesus Christ. By the time Jesus came around the Jewish priest had made so many laws that no mortal man could keep them all. When you claim Christ as your savior... You know the difference between right and wrong without having it written down for you.... You know it in your mind and in your heart and you choose not to sin.

Jeremiah 31: 31-34 predicted this new covenant.


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."


So... back to the original question about eating food. Eating certain foods was a law that was made so that a Jew could be "clean" and approch God. Christ's covenent removed that requirement... You are clean and able to approach God because of your faith in Christ.

Food is specifically addressed by Jesus in Mark ch 7

Clean and Unclean

1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.

5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.”

7They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "



BH, 46
STBXWW, 41, Serial Cheater
D-Day #1 5-26-2006 (Our Wedding Aniversary)
D-Day #2 12-26-2007
D-Day #3 5-11-2008
Separated 1-5-2008
STBX filed for divorce March 2009
Amazin #2063278 05/24/08 09:11 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
Quote
I have another explanation.

Here’s the basic difference: How to get to heaven based on Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism: You get to heaven (Salvation) based on your individual actions. If you follow the laws and keep all the laws... You’ll get to heaven. Moses made a covenant (contract) with God and wrote those laws down so that the Israelites would have a guidepost and know what was right and what was wrong.

Christianity: You get to heaven based on your belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. He was God’s son sent to save us. Jesus made a new covenant for us with God based on faith in Jesus Christ. By the time Jesus came around the Jewish priest had made so many laws that no mortal man could keep them all. When you claim Christ as your savior... You know the difference between right and wrong without having it written down for you.... You know it in your mind and in your heart and you choose not to sin.

hmmmm....where to begin.....?

Let's start with a couple of questions, Amazin.

You get to heaven (Salvation) based on your individual actions. If you follow the laws and keep all the laws... You’ll get to heaven.

Was the Law meant to provide a means for salvation or was it meant to convict the people of God that they were sinners and that they DID "need God?"

Will God "judge" some people by any other standard than Jesus Christ? What about those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? What standard will God use in those cases? Where do babies who die go? Is there such a thing as an "age of accountability?"



Moses made a covenant (contract) with God and wrote those laws down so that the Israelites would have a guidepost and know what was right and what was wrong. .

Who established a covenant, Moses or God?

Who wrote the Laws down, Moses or God?

Is a "covenant" different than a "contract?"

How exactly does having a "guidepost" help in choosing "right from wrong?"



You get to heaven based on your belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

Do you? ARE you capable of "choosing Christ" on your own?

Just how DID the Fall affect the "nature of man?"



Jesus made a new covenant for us with God based on faith in Jesus Christ.

Did He? Did He come to abolish the Law or to fulfill the Law?

Did Jesus come for the Jews or for the Gentiles?

Why DID Jesus come as a Jew and not as another "ethnic group?"





You know the difference between right and wrong without having it written down for you....

So the "unwritten" knowledge of good and evil that was "obtained" by eating the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil only passed that knowledge on to Adam and Eve?



You know it in your mind and in your heart and you choose not to sin.

So believers in Christ are not capable of sinning, of choosing to sin? Does belief in Christ give a Christian a "get out of jail free card" so that they can think in their minds that since they are "secure in Christ" that they can DO whatever they want to do?

Or is it that a Christian who sins LOSES his/her salvation if they sin "big enough" and then have to EARN their salvation back?

IS there a "war" between "good and evil," Satan and God, that we are "in the middle of" or isn't there?

Who chooses His people, God or the people?


Just a few things think about, Amazin.

If you'd like to discuss some of these things further I would suggest copying my post and starting a new thread for such a discussion as it could result in "threadjacking" this thread in order to continue such a discussion here.

God bless.

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,541
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,541
Well... Like I said... I recenly gave my life to christ...

I'm still learning... And I am by no means an expert...


Hmmm ....The bottom line is... I believe.... That's what gets a chritian into heaven... Their Faith. It's not by your works or deeds that you are saved... but by faith.

Romans ch 4. Talks about how Abraham was justified by his faith not his adherance to the law.

Funny thing... this subject was brought up at my mens group... Jokingly we said we were going to advertise this...

"The Mens Group. Sin all you want. (You just wont want to)"





BH, 46
STBXWW, 41, Serial Cheater
D-Day #1 5-26-2006 (Our Wedding Aniversary)
D-Day #2 12-26-2007
D-Day #3 5-11-2008
Separated 1-5-2008
STBX filed for divorce March 2009
Amazin #2063289 05/24/08 09:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
You are considered a "BABE IN CHRIST", Amazin...

I'm happy for you...


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,643
Q
Member
Offline
Member
Q
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,643
Hey Forever,

For sure you have given me a wopping full to read and respond to. I thank you for the kudos with respect to knowledge, but I also am comfortable with myself in admiting it is WAY limited.

I don't know if you have ever known a Jew and like people we all have our background differences as well as religious training. I have NO religious training and any understanding of Torah comes from my limited time reading and discussing in my head. Which really is more DANGEROUS, when you consider I am an alcoholic and my mind is out to destroy me.

But having said all that, I was raised Jewish and I am proud to be a Jew. And I just simply take for granted certainly beliefs or things that were casually told to me or taught to me. At the time I was just trying to learn not to question, even though the NUMBER ONE thing about Judaism is if you have 10 Jewish people praying, you will need 12 temples for them.

So I can't respond to your questions or thoughts because I have never thought of them myself. But it's Shabbat and a good day to read and pontificate.

And I agree, we can disagree even have an "argument" over it as long as we accept that neither one is "wrong" because we each have a right to our beliefs and way of life.


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
I AM SO PROUD AND HAPPY FOR YOU, QUEENIE!!

Please appreciate your WONDERFULNESS!!


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 894 guests, and 66 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5