That makes a lot of sense, too. Do you think that you trusted your wife was being honest with her assessments? My H sometimes says that I'm seeing problems where there are none, and that I fail to see problems that are there. That I've been somehow fractured by my experiences and some of my views are not reasonable.

Um... It's the old 50/50 combo. I was the King of DJs and Cynical Observations. Constantly dismissive of her concerns and criticisms, and always ready to rationalize and justify myself. She was the Queen of PA, always trying to affect an outcome through very indirect means.

An example from our early days, living together, but not yet engaged... We were planning to go on vacation in FL. I thought it had been settled. She wanted something else from me - I forget what - and I was reluctant to do it. I considered it something minor at the time.

Her: "You always get your way."
Me: "Like when?"
Her: "Like going to Florida."
Me (confused): "I thought we agreed on that together."
Her: "I wanted to take a cruise."
Me (frustrated): "Fine. I didn't realize it was that big of a deal. You want to take a cruise, we'll take a cruise."
Her (resigned): "No, no... We'll go to Florida..."
Me (frustrated and growling): "You're acting just like your mother."

That was the angriest I'd ever seen her up to that point. Comparing her to her mother was about the biggest DJ I could have ever performed. So much so that I never did it again. But you see her PA behavior in there too?

I don't know what came first - chicken or the egg. What I do know is that over time, I became less and less patient with her requests and expressions of unhappiness. I didn't trust her to be O&H with me. She didn't trust me to take her concerns seriously.

Seabird, I think this is really relevant. I never considered my behavior PA, but we've had almost the same conversation. Last year, H wanted to Las Vegas, where we've already been, and I've always wanted to go on a cruise. Instead of "No, no... We'll go to Florida...", I'd say okay, let's remember this, we decided to take a cruise next time. But then next time, the same thing, it doesn't make sense to take a cruise because we could always do that, because we live in South Florida. But this is a special opportunity to go out west.

My H said last night that he is at a breaking point with my requests and expressions of unhappiness. I find it uncanny that you just said that now. Would you have believed your wife if she expressed that it's not some never-ending list of complaints, that it's just some really simple changes to the way we see things, that willingness and effort to come to win-win solutions, and we'll be fine.

ears, does he feel that you ever give to him? That you ever compromise what you want so that he can be happier? What would that look like? I've been sensing for a while now that he thinks you just constantly take and complain and take and complain. Not an uncommon reaction from a man, I think, since they'd rather just not think about such stuff and just do.

Yes, SB, you nailed it...

I, too, was taught that the "why" answers would then give me the experience to empathize...and they really don't.

I was giving a lot of the why's and expecting empathy, too.

EO - Uncanny? Consider God bringing SB back for MB...I don't think there's waste anywhere...maybe SB forgot how important his story, HE is...too?

Next...seems to me your H is often saying two things...that he hears your stuff as "problems" and "unhappiness".

May come from his own belief that people are problems. I dunno. I know this would be a great way to not see the elephant (SoCal) as him harming the marriage...when you make it just another problem YOU have...

Again...not about you.

And it sounds to me like his most fervent wish is for you to be happy...that's what I get. Might want to listen to what's in that...you sure are doing great with intimacy through conflict, woman. Wow. Great job.

I know years ago I often expressed my urge to run away, to split up as a means (in my mind) to stop hurting...that mindset of DH as my enemy, my source of pain. What I had my belief set on...and it was also my desire to go back in time to where my DH was my partner, my ally...not my enemy...where I most felt safe from the world (which I'd made into my enemy)...

One or the other. I love your eval on the 90 degrees...being at 80% for me sounds terrific...way to go...

I gotta wonder about the SoCal thing including playfulness...a symbol of what's missing most...you guys getting those 20 hours of playing together...I'm harping.

LA

I think that he doesn't think that I give enough, that I don't compromise enough.

For many years I had a habit of not bringing my taker to the negotiation table. Until I got here, I had the mistaken belief that we each were looking out for both of us. So I would bring the best compromise that I had to offer, and he would bring what the best compromise he had to offer, leading to resentment for both of us. I am trying to change that pattern, and bring my taker to the table now.

I do bring a lot to the relationship. I am very loving to him and say a lot of sincere nice things to him. I make good money, do a lot of the cooking and cleaning, and do a lot with the kids. I work hard to address the concerns he brings up.

My experience is that most women (reread this sentence before you complain) have integrated PA tendencies into all facets of their lives. This is created both by nature and nurture. There are exceptions some of the time. I will postulate that most women are unaware that they do exhibit PA tendencies. My XW was extremely PA and even today in dealings with other PA persons in my life I find the PA personality to be the most difficult to deal with.

PA communication would be about the opposite of open and honest communication.

I feel that a lot of people think that good communication is a naturally occurring thing and that they are entitled to receive it. In reality it takes a lot of work by both parties.

Agreed. I would think PA dates all the way back to caveman days, when the women had to outthink the other women to get a man to choose her and provide for her.

Just started trying to follow this thread, and I'm about to commit an incredible faux pas, so a thousand apologies for being so rude...but would anyone mind clearing up what "PA tendencies" are? Thanks.

passive-agressive

LA,


I hear that, too. What I hear from that is that he didn't want to take my needs into account, but rather what he thought what I was supposed to want. I am grateful that we got to talk about this, that he acknowledged that this is how I filter what he says.

I went home for lunch, and we had a nice walk. It is SO hot, 91, and 97 with the humidity, so we went about a block before we turned around and went home. You are so right, that we are missing out on RC. We are thinking about going to the Kennedy Space Center for the holiday weekend.

booka, why would you say "most women" instead of "many men and women"? Not arguing, just wondering about context, why you think that women are more subject to this. My experience in that both my H and I were brought up without some skills that we needed, which here would be negotiating for what we want instead of what we think we're supposed to, but I'm glad that we can try new things in the present.

PA=Passive Aggressive.

LA - Brought her by God? I hadn't thought of it like that. I'm not disagreeing mind you. The Presby in me thinks He's behind everything we do...

But I tend to view this as us discussing some very, very common problems. This is a safe place to share notes and role play scenarios without serious consequences. We're all out in the open and public, but anonymous. For me the latter is important, not because I fear judgment (I know that I say things that get under peoples' skin), but because I take my physical security very seriously and you never know who's lurking...

That said, I'm glad to have my POV validated. Thanks!

EO - I think there are some important differences in the way you and your H negotiate in your seemingly similar scenario (how's that for a little alliteration? :P ). It sounds to me like you were merely reminding him of your prior agreement. You weren't trying to punish him or get him to change his mind by making yourself a self-sacrificing martyr.

The big problem with PA behavior, as I see it, is the assumption that the person knows (or should know) what the other person wants. As though in a good relationship, it should just be instinctive and natural. "If you loved me, then you'd __________."

This is conditioned behavior because early in the R, both persons' Givers are working overtime. Then when the Givers go on hiatus, the R is suddenly incompatible one or the other starts looking for another R. Looking for that full time Giver.

It's like buying a new car just because the old one needs an oil change.

booka...

Would your statement about PA and women be based on the common nuturing process where women are not allowed anger; men not allowed pain?

And they have them, anyway? Gotta act out what you're not "allowed"?

Curious...interested...

For some_guy:

Passive-Aggressive (PA)--where you seemingly agree/accept and don't truly agree, approve or accept.

I believe we all have PA behaviors. We make promises we don't keep because we felt pressured to make them in the first place.

PA behaviors often accompany CA (conflict avoidance) behaviors...entwined, I think.

LA

I definitely had a similar belief for a long time. That logically we would come to the same conclusions. When H and I were dating, I think we pretty much agreed on most things. At least, it felt that way. So I would explain my thinking, because I thought that once he heard my logic, that he would realize that it matched his. That worked for a while for both of us, because our values and priorities felt so similar.

Okay, Seabird, now I'm wondering if you were in my living room last night. I said this exact same thing!

Ears,

Have you ever asked your husband (in a moment of calm and happiness) HOW he would like you to bring up concerns?

I've said this before, but he may not like all the lingo that has come out of MB and/or the 12 steps... Also, he may feel like he is hearing about how you feel quite often... I mean, it's good to be open and honest, but--if you are sharing with him as much as it sounds like from what you write here, then he may be fried from it.

Now, as always, I say this as a fellow "got to tell you or it won't get told and the you won't know how I feel and then nothing will ever improve and I won't be acting true to myself" gal.

I am somewhat of a "process" person--meaning that I think about how we are doing the things we are doing... I'm not quite as much a destination person. My H is a DESTINATION person--meaning that he focuses on where we are going. He wants to make a decision and then make it happen. How he makes it happen isn't nearly as interesting to him as the whether he has made it happen or not.

So when I talk about HOW we are talking and want to stop and note the emotional detours along the way, he becomes fatigued and even annoyed.

This has been a challenge for us.

I find that as I try to do more of what I read about in those marriage books I've recommended in the past (in terms of seeking connection without words), HE is happier, and then I am more sensitive in a way that is meaningful to HIM when we DO talk.

Sometimes all the "lingo" strikes me as more female friendly than male friendly. That may sound sexist, but it is my view.

We have to work hard to put things in a way so that it does not exhaust our man. I strongly encourage you to figure out some new ways to do that...

There is a huge difference in the way that men and women are socialized and certain tendencies are more prevalent in one gender than the other and vice versa.

I will generalize here, but my caveat is that the majority will follow my postulates. Men tend to be results and goal oriented. We are problem solvers. We arrive at the desired result, i.e. the goal, and devise a solution to allow us to reach it. We know that in almost anything in life that we will need to expend some effort to get it. We can proceed in an orderly fashion to reach our goals and if asked at any time can state the purpose and the methodology of our actions. We tend to be far more direct and see emotions as superfluous to our goals.

Women do not operate as men and the few that do are actually emulating men and in fact are far too mannish to be interesting to men, but that's an aside more relevant to the PD (Post-Divorce) dating world. Women are taught to manipulate to get what they want. Some I know will react in shock and horror to that suggestion. But, I'll task you with this. Have you never used any of your female charms to entice a man into doing something? My personal theory is that the push-pull mechanism of PA-behavior is an ingrained tool of attraction, i.e. to show interest, then feign interest, then show interest, etc.

To expound further would require a lengthy discourse in gender philosophy.

I've made another reply where I fleshed out my thoughts a bit. It has tons to do how we are raised, even in these feminized times (How many male teachers did you have?). I think it's a lot more elemental than the questions you pose, although agree that your ideas come into play.

I'll further postulate that after being in a marriage for a number of years, one's objectivity about gender-based differences tends to get lost in other issues. I am constantly amazed at just how different men and women really are and that we can find any common ground at all that consistently adds value for both.

Telly, I've been thinking on your post. I don't want to deflect and defend and miss something important. I really do think that I'm doing well on this.

I do think that I am pretty sensitive about catching him at good times, like after a meal. He is initiating most of the discussions at this point, and I respect when he needs to end a discussion.

I have been really consistent with the verbal and nonverbal affection. That comes pretty naturally to me, anyway, especially now that I don't have this huge wall of resentment in the way. And he says that he is working not to let resentment determine his choices, either.

I don't believe that it is the way that I'm carrying the message, I think it's that I insist on carrying it. I'd always been a "go along to get along" kind of person, and I choose not to do that any more.

I'm really interested in what you think, because I know you've been in the trenches.

Hi ears,

It's interesting because I started my last post quite early and then the whole exchange about men and women proceeded in the meantime. Well, it was interesting to me anyway.

Here's the problem for me. I often (OFTEN) feel the same way you do. I tend to believe that the problem is simply that my expression of ANY needs (rather than be go along/get along) is unwanted by my husband. I really do. In fact, I often live in a place where I'm thinking "I'm just too much for him. He thinks I'm too much/want to much/ask for too much" etc. It doesn't matter how I ask, or what I do... he simply is disinterested in learning to meet my needs or take my thoughts/feelings into account.

And sometimes that may well be true (I mean, surely for ALL of us--someone else's needs are occassionally inconvenient or unwanted... even when it's someone we love).

But when I am able to step back and really look at how things work when I am able to find ways to connect with him in ways that don't involve so many WORDS, I do see that he moves towards me with great love and interest and attention.

My husband is not relationally wired in the same way I am. Doesn't mean he isn't interested in me or my well being, but he does not/can not think about it the way that I do. (Not telling you anything you don't already know). So I weary him with my words--and I think it really hinders me from getting what I want.

I find that I have to be short, simple and direct, and not talk much about my feelings. If I use words at all. Ex: "I would really like a hug right now." Or I might just move and cuddle with him (I'm pretty sure you're already doing that sort of stuff).

It's the DIRECT part that's hard. Though in every other area of my life, I FEEL that I'm being direct. I'm really not naturally good at it.

I have always loved working with men. But I find supervision of them sometimes hard--because many men do not read between the lines. Ex: We had decorated our building for CHristmas, and afterwards, the boxes/tree were waiting to be put away. I asked a guy to put away the tree (thinking that meant the tree and all it's accompaniments). He went upstairs, picked up the tree and put it away--never giving thought to the boxes of decorations that sat around it.

We talked about it later, and he had simply taken my words at their exact face value. (I did use the conversation as a springboard for my expectations of him, but that's another story). He was always like that, and many other men were as well.

Feelings to men are often nebulous (I know you know this).

[uh-oh, i hear baby waking. time is short].

I suspect that you and I had feelings that were ignored when we grew up, and we are overly careful today as we learn to make room for them ourselves. ANd we probably talk about them too much to our husbands.

(have story about daughter for later).

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I'm quickly throwing it all into the mix just because I feel like our paths are similar, yours and mine.