Hi,

My wife of 15 years announced that we should divide up everything and go our own ways. Although she hasn't figured out what the next steps are she says. We currently still live in the same house and everything is still in the same place like pictures and stuff. She has only told a very small group of friends so far. No family know ie. grown children. She still wears her wedding ring. She has spoken to a lawyer but hasn't hired one yet so she says. She also has opened her own checking and hasn't spent any of the money she says.

She has refused to go to counseling and says that she is 50% responsible for the split up. I have started to go to counseling and am confused which way to go. Try to see if the marriage can be saved or give up and not furstrate myself.

I really do want to save it if possible and am using this a a giant wake up call for myself to work on our issues and not sweep them under the rug. I also want to make myslef a better person weether for her or someone else.

Any suggestions and thoughts would be appreciated.

Why does she want a divorce? What are her complaints? Does she have any male "friends" she is speaking to?

Hi,

She says she is not happy and hasn't been for quite some time. She said that she would have filed a few years ago but she quit her job and decided not to at that time. She had a list of things that she didn't like about me like Not affectionate, don't share my feelings, feels I have self esteem issues, I didn't support her when she was unemployed and anger issues.

I did start counseling about the anger issues not physical kind but realize my body expressions definitely change. I get over it really quickly in minutes where once we sees or senses it it takes her a while like hours to be back to normal.

Just a while ago I started to talk to her about what got us to this point and she had a hard time trying to say what the issues are. We finally got to that she felt I have self esteem issues and that my level of showing affection is very minimal.

As for male friends I don't believe there are any at this time. The reason I say that is when she has gone out like tonight she was home at a very reasonable time.

Thanks for asking

Fran, can you describe your anger issues by describing an EVENT that happened? Did you have angry outbursts? Destructive behavior like angry outbursts cause women to fall out of love and WITHDRAW. I know when my H did it, I couldn't stand him for DAYS. Sure, he would be over it in 10 minutes. Well, guess what? It took me DAYS and if it had continued, it would have ruined our marriage. I wonder if this is what has happened here?

Have you read about lovebusters? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

Would you read this and tell me if you see yourself? sorry to ask so many questions but I am trying to understand the issue so I can point you to the best book/resource.

Hi,

My angry outbursts are usually caused when she mentions doing something for my step children that cost money. We make a comfortable living and the amount of money she spends really isn't going to break the bank but it angers me and my body language changes and she picks up on it. Then after I get angry I think about it a little bit more and realize that its not going to break the bank and then relax again but she doesn't for quite some time. I have started to take anger management counseling as I realize that I need to work on it before my body language changes.

Just to update, We did talk some last night and I tried to get her to tell me what she would want changed in me as I go forward in trying to be a better person. This was suggested via a counselor I spoke with. Her chief complaint was that I'm not happy with myself and lack self esteem. Another thing she mentioned was my lack of affection. She put it as a I give a teaspoon instead of a ladle worth.

Hi,

I'm still confused. On Friday night we did some running around together (bring stuff back to the mall and such). Saturday we worked in the yard and were together the whole day. Yesterday we had family over for my step daughter's birthday.
We agreed to talk today as she wanted to get through the party plans without any additional pressures.
Am I just letting myself be taken advantage of or what?

Fran, do you want to stay married to your wife?

If not, don't bother to read my 2 X 4 post. If so, read on, but be prepared.

If you want to save your marriage and restore your relationship with your wife, you need to change your attitude.
1. Losing your temper and "getting back to normal" quickly isn't really a great attribute. "Getting back to normal" doesn't undo the damage you did when you lost your temper. If you want to see how much damage you do when you lose your temper, look at how long it takes your wife to act normally. That's just the beginning because most people will start to act normally in a relationship even though they haven't quite forgiven the person yet.

2. You seem to be looking for the insults and injury here. Specifically thinking that your wife may be taking advantage of you by having a regular weekend. Instead of looking for injury being done to you, why not take this at face value? There were plans and you two needed to pull together for the weekend. If you want to be optimistic, you could see this as her being unsure that she really wants to divorce you.

3. Assuming you want to be happily married to your wife, you're the one who needs to initiate change. You're the one motivated right now. If you demand she make changes to please you, she will be more likely to leave. Read about Plan A. In Plan A, you stop all LBs, and meet any emotional needs your spouse will let you meet, WITHOUT expecting anything in return. Plan A is designed to put your spouse in a frame of mind where she'll be willing to change her behavior--usually ending an affair, but sometimes coming out of withdrawl. Once your wife is out of withdrawl, then she'll be more motivated to make changes herself.

I know this isn't easy.And right now, it's of supreme importance taht you don't have another angry outburst. It's okay to get mad, but it's not okay to ever lose your temper with your wife or her kids again. One thing that I like to remember is that anger is a secondary emotion. Underneath it is usually fear or hurt or sadness. It helps me to identify which of the root emotions triggered my anger. Then, I can assess whether my anger is an emotion I need to harness to make changes, or whether I need to address the root emotion, or a combination of both.

HOWEVER, I never use my anger to justify punishing someone else for making me angry. That's what losing your temper or angry outbursts are about: hurting or frightening someone else in order to punish them. AO's destroy love faster than anything except big lies.

Think about it. Someone cannot love you if they are afraid of you.

Amen GreenG!

There came a time when Kasey and I separated - trigger was my own angry outburst at his ongoing anger, outbursts, and general license to do all the damage to my heart he could do.

We'd only meet in a counselor's office or our minister's office - and frequently Kasey would rattle off this list of things I needed to do for him to consider letting me come home. I was working through my own anger issues and would calmly say "I don't need to be married that badly". I'd wait to see if it sunk in, which it didn't. Not for six months. Thankfully, Kasey got it figured out and realized that I wasn't bowing down anymore. And he started recognizing that I had had enough violence/verbal abuse growing up; now that I had a choice, I would be far less lenient on allowing people to take license with their tempers with me.

I didn't need to be married that badly.

Also - the stinginess with the family money that allows her to do things with/for her children don't think I didn't pick up on the fact that you mentioned STEP in describing these children. If you are financially responsible, stop stiff-arming your wife and her children - and if you are living off joint accounts, referring them to step children makes you miserly and cruel to their mother financially... T Harv Eker has a great money management system that works wonderfully for couples and families that are in agreement with each other on the money situation for the family. In his Millionaire Mind Intensive weekend he talks about spending money - and if there's a single income earner in the family, how that money is to be handled. He makes a very passionate point in his workshop - NEVER EVER make your spouse beg for money. It's demeaning. It's disrespectful.

If you focus this on being HER problem, you just will never get it and will lose your marriage. My husband woke up and thankfully I had enough patience to stand my ground and not be intimidated anymore. I figured I had nothing left to lose, since I was NOT going to live in an angry home anymore.

Hi Greengables,

Well thanks for your comments. Since she announced her intentions there have been no angry outbursts and I am in counseling for that. I did see that this weekend as a positive about maybe there being some hope.
What prompted me to write about being taken advantage of was that I'm confused by her because my wife seemed to be angry this morning and when I asked her why she said that she wanted to talk about splitting our marrial assets. She still says she only wants the things she came into the marriage with but wanted to split the things up that we both aquired. She says the reason she told me was that she has found someplace to live but since that time it's gone.

I do want to save my marriage if possible and am willing to do whatever it takes to make everything better for both of us. I realize that we can't go back to where we were and we wouldn't want to anyway but I want to make the future better. Unfortunately listening to her it sounds like its a very uphill battle as she isn't interested in me and believes she ready to move on. I'm trying some of the love busters but seems like I'm unable to make any headway.

Where do I find Plan A?

Thanks for any advice.

Hi KaylaAndy,

Just to clarify I don't say STEP around my wife. I do not believe our problem is caused my her. I fully take responsibility for your failure. I am entering marriage counseling hopefully to help save it but also to hopefully fix some of the issues about myself that my wife said to me.

We talked today and she wants to discuss splitting your everything so she can move forward. It's hard to hear those types of words and realize that your best friend and person you had big ideas with is looking to walk away.

I still want to be married and am willing to work at changing whatever needs to be done to save it. Unfortunately my wife doesn't share the desire to try and save it.

Thanks for your comments.

Fran, look at the infidelity section for Plan A. It's part of the plan for Surviving an Affair and can be found in detail in that book. However, it can also be effective with withdrawn spouses.

There's another book to check out too. Should I Stay or Should I Go: How a controlled separation can save your marriage. If your wife is dead set on moving out, you may be able to use the "controlled separation" to buy you time. A controlled separation is a separation where everything is negotiated upfront, including start date, end date, division of stuff, and more. The big thing is both spouses agree not to file for divorce during the separation.

The negotiation ideally takes place with a counselor present. The act of negotiating the terms often gives both spouses a clearer picture of the viablity of the relationship. Neogitating would be a perfect opportunity to show your wife you have her interests at heart and can handle disappointment and anger responsibly.

Hi Greengables and everyone,

I've been reading through the website and trying to apply some of the techniques. With my wife being so distance how do I try to break through the outer covering that she has built around herself. I certainly am hestitate to try to hold her hand or I'm not certain I should be saying I Love you when I leave for work or any other time. Some of the counseling I've gone to so far basically is to leave her alone and don't bother with her approach but that's not what I've read from this website. I'm trying to use that we still are in the house together to try to show that we can change.

Am I not understanding the website properly?

I guess my question is, is your counselor a marriage counselor or an individual counselor? In other words, is this a marriage-friendly person you're seeing about your anger issues?

Marriage Builders is just that. It's a system to build a stronger marriage.

Generally with MB concepts, you're to work on eliminating love busters (the things that upset her) before you work on trying to fulfill her needs. Otherwise, it's like trying to fill a bucket with holes in it. However, since she has 1 foot out the door, you may have to try both simultaneously.

There are love buster questionnaires on the website as well as emotional needs questionnaires. I'd recommend printing off the ones for the wife to fill out, see if she'll do it, or at least fill them out for her so that you have something concrete to work with. Based on what she complains about and what you know she's unhappy about, you'll most likely be able to uncover at least a few things that you can work on.

Try to spend quality time together with her, and make being home with you a pleasant experience.

Do you have children together, the two of you, or just her children from a previous relationship?

It sounds to me as though you have some financial concerns and that a budget was possibly never discussed, resulting in AOs and her possibly being very hurt about your reluctance to spend large amounts of money on her children. Is their biological father in the picture, and does he help financially with them? Does she work to help support them?

Can you see how she might not understand that your financial concerns and subsequent AOs could be misconstrued as negative feelings towards her children?

Did you ever discuss together what your role would be as their stepfather, paternally, financially, discipline-wise etc?

I'd like to add that MB stresses you meet the needs your spouse allows you to. If she doesn't want to hold your hand, trying to hold hers will only make you both unhappy.

The MOST important thing is to show her you can protect her from your worst aspects. Don't try to force your way into her shell. Pushing for a greater degree of intimacy than she's will to give may feel scary to your wife since you haven't always proven safe.

As you build distance between you and your last angry outburst, you'll be reestablishing some trust. It will take some time, but it's possible.

There are some needs that are easier to meet. Domestic Support, Family Commitment, Financial support within your means, Admiration, conversation (not about relationship, think more like when you very first started dating)and if possible recreational companionship.

Since your wife probably doesn't want to spend any time alone with you, try getting her to do stuff wiht you and the kids, especially stuff where the kids can go off and play while you two sit and watch.

Consider what will earn you the most points and do it. Being the best dad every really helps.

Hi Soolee,

I expect the person to be a family counselor. I haven't been able to make an appointment yet. Waiting on them to call back tomorrow. They were recommended via my EAP assistance at work. I always try to make the time together pleasant. Thre has been no AO's since she announced her intentions because there hasn't been any need for them.

No we never discussed my role as a step father . I've always let her spend money but I admit I have either verbally or implied that I may not be happy with spending money. I sure that is part of the anger that erupts occassionally. So the children are from her past marriage and we have none together. Their father is around but for the most part doesn't contribute much. The kids are 24 and 26 years old now. Their mom is the one who pretty much buys them whatever she feels they need. She does work and contribute to the joint checking.

I will print off the forms and fill them out the best I can. She doesn't want to help save this marriage but I want to at least try some of the concepts to hope to change her mindset.

Any other suggestions is appreciated.

Hi Greengables,

Thanks for your input. So I don't think I'm forcing anything on her. I have asked to hold her hand and she said No. Is saying "I love you" considered forcing? I have been trying to call her each day to tell her to have a good day or some other reason to call. She hasn't said to stop or anything. Are these considered forcing? There have been no AO's since before she said she wanted out because there has been no reason for them.

The kids are older 24 and 26 years old so we have been helping them at their residences together. Hopefully building some points.

An issue that I'm stumped as to things to talk about. She has been giving very short answers to most topics. I also am having a difficult time in trying to create meaningful conversation. I'm to nervous to say something that will be cast in a bad light and cause to lose points.

This is where I'm stuck in trying to earn points but not certain if doing some of the concepts are working. Her demeanor towards me is indifferent at best. It seems like since she told me back on May 7th that she like stopped caring for me. Now it may just be her trying to not show that she is weak. Like a I made this decision and I'm not going to change my mind no matter what. Yet there are times when we get along well.

So this is hard for me to figure out if there is hope or am I chasing something in my mind only.

Fill out the LB questionnaire first and just see if anything pops out at you that you might be doing and stop doing those things.

Then fill out the EN questionnaire and see if you'd be able to meet any of her top 3 needs.

Also, I think it would be a good idea for you to read about POJA. It's an agreement regarding, well, agreements. (compromise, etc.) See if you think that might be something you could talk to your wife about, especially in regards to your budget. Maybe you could figure out your bills and then what may or may not be left over for gift giving.

They are, however, adults...I can understand your concerns. When does one cut the apron strings? A tough call. For her, it may be especially difficult to do, especially if she spent a significant amount of time as a single parent, worrying about finances and their well being. Could be she is trying, subconsciously to make up for lost time or make up to them what happened with their father, but in a monetary way. It doesn't make it right, but it may be where her head is (possibly.) She is remarried now with another income, and she's in a position (in her mind probably) where she can finally feel safe to spend a little bit on wants and not have to worry about having enough for needs. You may want to try and feel her out in this way to try and see if this is, indeed, how she's been feeling. A little validation and empathy can go a long way with a withdrawn spouse.

Another thing is to listen to her. Nod your head, keep eye contact, and give her your full attention when she talks or just wants to vent. Women don't always want someone who will solve their problems. They may just be looking for someone to listen and validate. You can validate by mirroring what she says like, "So what you're saying is...(fill in the blank.)" This allows you to make sure you understood what she was trying to say (since you're obviously listening, she will feel safe to correct you if your understanding is wrong) but will also make her aware that you were listening. Practice being a better listener and validating by mirroring.

Telling her you love her isn't a bad thing, but if you think it may come across as a push to get her to say it back, it may come across as you being desperate. You might do better to show her that you love her by eliminating those LBs and fulfilling those ENs. When she isn't in such a withdrawn state, or after you've had a heart-to-heart and the conversation is more intimate - maybe then would be a better time.

In the meantime, you can certainly tell her that you've been doing a lot of reading about anger and are trying to make some improvements, that you want to be a better husband for her, that you believe in the marriage, and that you do NOT want to divorce. Swallow your pride and tell her these things. It certainly cannot hurt.

Hi Soolee,

I did print off the LB and EN questioniares and try to fill them out from her perspective. Its hard to figure out if what I think is a high LB if she would say the same. But it does give me a bunch of different things to work on resolving.

She told me that she was not going to be home right after work. I asked when she got home where did she go. She said that she was looking at places to live. I asked what she thought of the place and she said it was ok but she wasn't sure. I mentioned that she said previously that she wanted the house and she said that she still did. We went to dinner and I said that I still wanted the marriage to work and that I was starting individual counseling today. She said that she appreciated that I wanted to fix the marriage but she was ready to move on. Later we went for a walk and she just out of the blue started telling me about stuff going on at her work. I listened and acknowledged what she was saying. I did ask her if she was seeing anyone and she said NO. I asked this as she happened to mention a previous male co-worker that she has kept in contact with for the past 2 years. Again she wears her wedding ring to work and our house looks exactly like it did before her announcement with our wedding and vacation pictures displayed.

I did happened to snoop into her cell phone records and see that she was calling her ex-husband both at his house and on his cell phone a fair amount before her announcement. I'm taking it as she was looking for advice and not something negative. I've been checking her recent cell phone calls and don't see any to him recently.

I met with an attorney the other day and it was recommended tfor me to open my own checking account and have my paycheck go there. It would happen until the middle of next month. I get paid twice a month. But it will be interesting to see how she reacts whe the joint checking account doesn't have much money in it. Its not that she will spend it all but we always allowed to spend the excess for whatever was needed like for the house.

I'm still confused. Does it sound like the marriage can be saved?

If my H told me he was going to change, to become the person I wanted, I wouldn't believe him. IMO, the only way that could happen would be if he had some sort of totally new lifestyle. Like if you want to lose weight, you have to approach food and eating completely differently from how you used to. I'd have to see my H looking at our life in a completely new light, not just 'fixing' things. I'd want to see a new philosophy from him.

I can totally see a woman just deciding she doesn't want to be with a man any more, and it not being about wanting another man. I'm vacillating between leaving or staying with my H after my D17 graduates and moves away next year. And I will never want to be with another man. I will want to be by myself, living FOR myself for the first time in my life. A woman usually subjugates herself for her H and her kids during the child-raising years; when the kids leave, she often finds that this life she has is nothing like what she really wanted, and just wants out.

If that's your case, the only way that you can save the marriage is to become PART of that new life she wants. Picture it like moving to a tropical island. She wants a tropical island life now, instead of the Canada snow life she's had the last 25 years. If you want to be part of her life, you'll have to commit to living in a tropical world instead of a snow world. If you moved to her island, and she saw after awhile you were really willing to commit to the new lifestyle, she may start including you in her thoughts about her future. Not a guarantee, but the best chance you've got.

If you want something to talk about, ask her how she envisions her future; then go away and think about where you could fit into it.

Hi Catperson,

Wow that is an interesting view and will ask her that kind of question.

So do you feel that I should be kind of supportive in her desire for moving on with her life but still work on stopping LB's and fixing EN's?

Try to be back to being her best friend?