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It is a terrible scar for the FWS too... Maybe so...but it is self inflicted. I think the FWS look back with an ability to see how destructive their behavior was...BUT, that does not change that at the time they were doing it that they were enjoying themselves immensely...almost giddy with happiness.
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Seeing other acts of infidelity reminds her of what she did, and brings up feelings of guilt and shame she doesn't want to deal with, hence her agression to the others. I have observed an opposite reaction. Typically, when I see something that brings up feelings of guilt and shame, I don't feel aggression towards that person, but DEFENSIVENESS. If I can relate to that crime on a personal level, I will DEFEND, not repel. I notice that same trait amongst WS' around here. The foggier a WS, the more DEFENSIVE of adultery and foggy thinking. The less foggy, the angrier they get. I think the reaction comes from revulsion and disgust the more recovered they are.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It is a terrible scar for the FWS too... Maybe so...but it is self inflicted. You think that makes it better??? I did this to myself AND Mr. W...AND our dd...AND my parents...And I can't take it back no matter how much I want to...That is a he!! of my own making...It makes my soul SCREAM... Do you know that one of the hardest things that I've had to deal with regarding my father's death last June was the grief over my disappointing him...The SHAME of that...YES, I brought it on myself and knowing that is TORTURE! I think the FWS look back with an ability to see how destructive their behavior was...BUT, that does not change that at the time they were doing it that they were enjoying themselves immensely...almost giddy with happiness. MEDC, there is GREAT conflict in a WS during an affair...Or at least there was for me...I had to actively push God away...I couldn't pray...I couldn't even read Christian fiction...Separation from God is HORRIBLE-I chose it, yes, but it was still HORRIBLE...I abused Xanax to try and escape my conscience...YES, I realize I did that to myself...I tortured ME and EVERYONE around me...It was not fun...It is akin to the "fun" of a drug addict...It is FALSE...It is soul killing... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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I notice that same trait amongst WS' around here. The foggier a WS, the more DEFENSIVE of adultery and foggy thinking. The less foggy, the angrier they get. I think the reaction comes from revulsion and disgust the more recovered they are I think that's what I was getting at. I know my WW, as the fog lifted, acted more angry towards infidelity. But I knew, at least for her, that her anger was rooted in the guilt she felt. She was angry knowing all the pain that infidelity can cause, especially what it had caused us.
BH (me) age 55
FWW age 52
married 26 years
First DDay 2/23/08, 1 day after PA began, ~1-1/2 months after EA began
Multiple failed attempts at NC
confirmable NC since 1/23/09
(D 31; S 29) my first marriage
(D 27; S 25) her first marriage
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I agree with the poster on this thread or another one that politicians and their egos have a lot of affairs. Some of them learn (or knew) that isn't the smartest thing they can do and others just give lip service while working their agenda. Unintended consequences follow us around like a dark cloud and affairs are a prime example of what can happen if you give in to thoughtless choices. You can also tell a lot about a politician if you listen to his/her speeches where unintended consequences are either considered or ignored. Spitzer is a prime example of this and so is Bill Clinton. Both of those guys always seemed to put a positive spin on whatever it was they were discussing and never had a word for unintended consequences or the down side. OTOH, it seems as if McCain gets it. A prime example is his words on the Veterans Bill he opposed and why he did so, which is [color:#CC0000]click here [/color] for those who are interested (off topic) Larry
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MEDC, there is GREAT conflict in a WS during an affair... For some...obviously you, this is the case. For others...I see no conscience and total lack of empathy for what they are doing to their loved ones (example, the story that BobP relates regarding the man that hung himself). You think that makes it better??? No, it doesn't...but it makes me less concerned for that person than I would be for the one whose scars were the result of being attacked. Mrs. W...your dad knows you loved him...at the end of the day, that is all that counts. I have had similar feelings over the past three plus years after losing my dad...but in the end, he knew how I felt and I find total solace in that. I hope you do as well.
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Now I understand marriage in a way that I didn't before... Mrs. W, can you elaborate for me on this? Thanks, Queenie Wow, a tall order for a post...I hope I can do it justice...I'm not sure I can articulate well how different things are now, but I'll try... First, for me, I was a person that always lived a "waiting for the other shoe to drop" kind of life (a mindset that comes from growing up in a home with a father with a dual diagnosis of Bipolar disorder and Alcoholism)...That mindset lent itself to lots of insecurities regarding our marriage for me...When things were good in my life, I never believed that they would be for long...I believed that Mr. W had just "settled" for me and that once he really knew me that he'd be out the door...MY insecurity issues were big intimacy blockers... We both were very adversarial with each other...We did NOT view marriage as a TEAM effort...We did not see our marriage as something to be PROTECTED, CELEBRATED and ADORED...It was very much still about "YOU" and "ME"...Not "US"...We both practiced TONS of independent behaviors...Kept each other at a distance... You know, we both bought into a societal view of marriage...A sitcom view...Men vs. Women...Husbands vs. Wives...What is so sickening for us is that we did NOT have to do that...We had the BOOK with the correct way to do it all along...The Bible...It's all in there...the right way...and we ignored it...In early recovery we went back and read from our workbooks from a Family Life Marriage Conference that we had attended early in our marriage (A wedding gift from friends of ours!  ) We were STUNNED to see that we had so much of the stuff that Dr. Harley teaches right there!!! We had sat through the classes, taken the notes, and STILL ignored it...ARGH!!!!!!! All I can tell you is that now things are worlds away from what they were...We share EVERYTHING-no topic is off limits...No matter how small it may seem...fears, joys, frustrations, finances, decisions...We view each other as ONE now...HUGE mind shift for both of us...We even practice that with our daughter...explaining that any disrespect shown towards one of us is disrespecting both of us...There is a new security in our relationship...A KNOWING...(not just a wishing, hoping, or guessing) that no matter what we are in this together until death...For us, that is new... I wish I could convey properly in words the diffence between then and now, I'm afraid I have failed to give you a full picture. This flows better conversationally...we talk about different aspects of it often in fact...To be honest though, some of it is deeply personal for us and can't be shared without sacrificing intimacy...Suffice it to say that it is a "Brave New World" for us, with God at the helm... Mrs. W Mrs W, I think you did a wonderful job explaining this. I guess what is hard for ME to get past is that my FWH and i HAD this pre-A. I mean we had our problems but we are now and have always been BEST FRIENDS. We talk to one another about everything and always have. We may not always agree on things but we have always talked about everything and anything. So it makes me sad to think that he could not come to me when he was so down about things and that he went to someone else to fill his needs. That is why i kind of think like MEDC that he was just being selfish and doing what "felt good" at the time regardless of the consequences.
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So,
Some WS engage their adultery thinking it is OK for them because of … whatever.
Other WS commit adultery knowing it is very wrong, but they do it anyway.
Regardless of how they feel about it after it all comes apart, which is the most revealing?
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Ummmmmmmm...McCain is STILL doing it!!! He remains in an adulterous marriage today... Well, I think there must be a HUGE amount of stuff regarding his ex-wife and his affair that is unknown to the public. I see how much his ex wife supports him now...and I wonder if that would be the case if he acted as people suspect. I also know that JM had a lot of mitigating circumstances that would make any person act crazy for a period of time. Being held in a North Vietnamese prison during the war had to be life altering. I would really like to learn more about what happened regarding his divorce. I will say that no matter JM's shortcomings...at the very least he is willing to support ending the deaths of over 1 million unborn children each year. I certainly hope that any Christian(or person that values life) would weigh that issue very carefully since a vote for Hilary or Barack is a vote to continue the senseless killing of children. I guess when I look at that isse, I don't really give a flying hoot about JM's affair....or his affairage. The Republican party has been fooling its followers for years on this issue. How many decades have to go by before you see the scam for what it is? GWB was in the White House for 8 years, and for a good number of years, the Republicans had control of Congress. Was any serious attempt made to ban abortion nationwide? No. I'm not making an argument for or against abortion. I'm only saying that Republicans are no more likely to end abortion than Democrats. The proof is in the pudding. Republicans use the "God, guns, and abortion" tactic to get elected, only to ignore those issues once in office. It happens every time. So McCain does not personally support abortion. Big deal. It won't make a bit of difference if he's elected. Abortions will remain legal, and they'll still be legal when he leaves office. I'll tell you something similar to what I told my mother, who STILL thinks Obama is a Muslim: "If you dislike Obama, fine. But at least dislike him for a legitimate reason." In the case of McCain, I can understand supporting him, but supporting him because you think he'll get something accomplished in terms of banning abortions, is simply fooling yourself. Actually, the Republican party is fooling you.
Last edited by Krazy71; 05/23/08 01:45 PM.
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OTOH, it seems as if McCain gets it. He's still married to his affair partner. He left his wife to be with her. Whatever it is that he does "get", it certainly has nothing to do with loyalty to one's family. The guy's a sleeze, like most other prominent politicians. The grandpa/war hero routine does nothing for me.
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She was angry knowing all the pain that infidelity can cause, especially what it had caused us. I think you summed it up perfectly right there.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The proof is in the pudding. Republicans use the "God, guns, and abortion" tactic to get elected, only to ignore those issues once in office. It happens every time. Interesting Krazy...That is a view that Mr. W shares with you regarding abortion and the Republican party...He believes that they have no interest in having Roe vs. Wade overturned because doing so would cause them to lose one of their very successful platforms... Mrs. W P.S. For the record, I don't like any of the candidates and have no idea what I'm going to do in November...I might have to do a write-in...Mr. W has told me that he would appreciate my vote! 
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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The proof is in the pudding. Republicans use the "God, guns, and abortion" tactic to get elected, only to ignore those issues once in office. It happens every time. Interesting Krazy...That is a view that Mr. W shares with you regarding abortion and the Republican party...He believes that they have no interest in having Roe vs. Wade overturned because doing so would cause them to lose one of their very successful platforms... Mrs. W P.S. For the record, I don't like any of the candidates and have no idea what I'm going to do in November...I might have to do a write-in...Mr. W has told me that he would appreciate my vote! I am right there with you Mrs W!!! Although i don't know if i will write in Mr. W (sorry about that)
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 He sounds like a very intelligent man!
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So,
Some WS engage their adultery thinking it is OK for them because of … whatever.
Other WS commit adultery knowing it is very wrong, but they do it anyway.
Regardless of how they feel about it after it all comes apart, which is the most revealing? Aph, I think they do both. They all KNOW it is wrong and do it anyway. [excepting the sociopaths] Once they start the wrongdoing, they have to shift reality to justify it, hence all the bizarre rewriting of history and demonization of the spouse. Most male WS were "mistreated" and ignored, and most WW's play the "abuse" card. They would rather alter their standard than alter their behavior.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The proof is in the pudding. Republicans use the "God, guns, and abortion" tactic to get elected, only to ignore those issues once in office. It happens every time. Interesting Krazy...That is a view that Mr. W shares with you regarding abortion and the Republican party...He believes that they have no interest in having Roe vs. Wade overturned because doing so would cause them to lose one of their very successful platforms... Actually GWB has made great strides in banning abortion. He put two conservative judges on the Supreme Court and those guys will be on the bench for the next twenty years. If McCain puts one more on Roe Vs Wade will be overturned.
Last edited by betterorworse; 05/23/08 02:19 PM.
BS ME 35, XWW 37, DS 7, DD 5, DS 5, D-day1 12-20-2007.Multiple Ddays
Divorce 1/29/2009
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So,
Some WS engage their adultery thinking it is OK for them because of … whatever.
Other WS commit adultery knowing it is very wrong, but they do it anyway.
Regardless of how they feel about it after it all comes apart, which is the most revealing? Aph, I think they do both. They all KNOW it is wrong and do it anyway. [excepting the sociopaths] Once they start the wrongdoing, they have to shift reality to justify it, hence all the bizarre rewriting of history and demonization of the spouse. Most male WS were "mistreated" and ignored, and most WW's play the "abuse" card. They would rather alter their standard than alter their behavior. I think most PAs start out as EAs, however short, during which history is mentally rewritten and morals rationalized, upon the completion of which the WS is then ready to upgrade to a PA
BH (me) age 55
FWW age 52
married 26 years
First DDay 2/23/08, 1 day after PA began, ~1-1/2 months after EA began
Multiple failed attempts at NC
confirmable NC since 1/23/09
(D 31; S 29) my first marriage
(D 27; S 25) her first marriage
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The proof is in the pudding. Republicans use the "God, guns, and abortion" tactic to get elected, only to ignore those issues once in office. It happens every time. Interesting Krazy...That is a view that Mr. W shares with you regarding abortion and the Republican party...He believes that they have no interest in having Roe vs. Wade overturned because doing so would cause them to lose one of their very successful platforms... Actually GWB has made great strides in banning abortion. He put two conservative judges on the Supreme Court and those guys will be on the bench for the next twenty years. If McCain puts one more on Roe Vs Wade will be overturned. I doubt it. As was stated above, if abortion is banned, the Republicans lose much of their ammunition. It simply is not in thier best interest to ban it. Besides, if they really wanted to...if they were really that concerned about the unborn...they could've done it already. Not that banning abortion will save many babies, anyway. I think it's ironic that you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to prove yourself worthy of adopting a child, but any sack of crap that gets knocked up can have a child. Just a bit off-topic.
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Mrs W... Interesting Krazy...That is a view that Mr. W shares with you regarding abortion and the Republican party...He believes that they have no interest in having Roe vs. Wade overturned because doing so would cause them to lose one of their very successful platforms... Neither party has the power to do anything. While I completely agree with Mr. W about the Repubs, a cynic might note that the Democrats love it when someone tries to start a constitutional amendment campaign because they can stir up their own base. So both parties are hypocritical in their approach. Which doesn't help the children who are killed in the womb. While the Repub haven't done anything to BAN abortion, they have succeeded at the state level in passing bills that mitigate. For example, the two step process, etc. In point of fact, I am disgusted with BOTH parties over the partisanship that is going on. The Repubs just released a very intelligent energy policy wonk deal that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the way they introduced it, with all sorts of stones thrown at Pelosi first, which will stop it in its tracks before anything happens. The only thing going on in Washington is finger pointing and bad bills Congress has to pass to keep the government from shutting down. Nothing of real benefit that changes things has happened, imho, since Newt put the screws to a pliant Clinton and actually got something done. At this time, neither party "gets it." I guess we keep voting for the least bad candidate. I held my nose over Bush versus both Kerry and Al "I invented the Internet" Gore (he really did say that). McCain is the reason why telephone and cable companies are putting the screws to the public and innovation and tons of jobs were lost. And Obama carries his own baggage, most of which is lightweight. Where is Ike or Truman or (name your favorite from the past) when we need them? Yea, I am stirred up.  Larry
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I also don't understand how he could have a lack of appreciation for his wife. You'd think after such an experience, he'd embrace her and never let go.
I'll never be in his shoes, but I wonder if being a "war hero" inflated his ego after the fact, and left him with a sense of entitlement due to all of his suffering. I once read an interview with McCains first wife about the affair. She said it had nothing to do with Vietnam, and had nothing to do with her very serious car accident. It was simply about John (McCain) turning forty and wanting to be twenty five again.
BS ME 35, XWW 37, DS 7, DD 5, DS 5, D-day1 12-20-2007.Multiple Ddays
Divorce 1/29/2009
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