I hastily limited abuse to sexual abuse, which had been the case with my FWW. As you are seeing, any form of childhood abuse, emotional and/or physical, can lead to these hangups and insecurities. As I said, from the abuse, she sounds like having a deep-seated disrespect for men, coupled for a need for validation. In my wife, this "hangup" (for lack of a better term, resurrected itself when she went through a mid-life crisis (she recently turned 50). She lost weight, and, frankly, has passed as someone younger than 40. This resulted in attention from many more men, which only fed her hangup. Once she saw the turmoil her affair created, she ended it, and we're in recovery. But, like I had said, it's like walking on eggshells to keep her ego stroked.

Your "Moral of the Story" is so true. I have several acquaintances who have, or usually had, promiscuous wives, all of which had abusive childhoods, in one form or another.

Had a good talk with WW last night.

She is going to put in her resignation for her job so as not to see the OM anymore. Not necessarily for us to work out, but to clear her head to make a decision without the withdrawal feelings interfering.

She thinks she can never change her need for being attracted to other men and thereby being vulnerable to affairs.

I *think* I believe that she can be freed from that through mutual marital counseling and inner work, as well as me better meeting her ENs...

Am I giving her too much credit? She is still not sure she wants to be married. We talked last night about trying a marriage counselor. She would like us to not live together for a bit, but I am starting to believe I should not make it that easy for her. I am thinking I need to stay and she needs to come to grips with what she's feeling with me still in the house.

But I'm not even sure now that I want to save this marriage. Divorce sucks, but I'm not sure how deeply rooted her psychological issues are, and if I am just setting myself up to be [censored] over again....

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COUNSEL!!!

Talk is cheap. WW said she is going to resign. Did she resign?
Separate? If you are not sure about being married then do not move out and make it easier for WW to restart her affair.

Actually she's been pretty much fired... boss told her he has concerns about her (outside of the affair) - she has always been a great worker so he probably has concerns about her integrity since the affair was going on in the workplace.

Had a talk with her today. She says she wishes I would just leave her, but doesn't know if she is clear-headed.

Right now I feel like I should leave her. I want to say forget it. I'm trying to not make any rash decisions but she doesn't want what I am offering.

You can always leave later. But you can't undo leaving if you do it now. Arrange to call the Harleys when you know she's going to be home, see what happens.

Your WW is still reeling from the exposure. She is only spouting WW fog babble. That's why it is pointless to talk recovery or relationship for now. WW will have to go through withdrawal first.

CH
You asked for advice from us that are older and hopefully wise. I have a son your age. My advice to him would to pick someone in the future more carefully. You are young and have no children. Your WW is very selfish and immature and has little or no respect for you or any other men or woman.

Her willingness to tell you that she uses her sexuality to get what she wants is a character flaw that I don’t believe will change.

If you were my son I would tell you to stay in the house and tell her she is free to go. Get yourself a good attorney and use her desire to leave you and get the very best divorce settlement you can and move on with your life and forget about this woman.
Sorry if this is not the advice you are looking for but I believe it is the best advice.

Merlin

Thank you for your advice, Merlin (and everyone). I am starting to think that it is what I need to do. She has a very deep character flaw.
But she is so honest in her struggles, and is so hurt by feeling so powerless... she is such a WONDERFUL woman and wife except for this VERY big flaw. She says she knows she will lose control and do it again down the road. She says she has control over her actions when she WANTS to have control, but her need for "conquering men" apparently overpowers her logic and reason.

I broke it down real clearly last night. She sat down and for the first time, with tears streaming down her face, apologized for the affair. "You didn't deserve it" "I wish you'd never married someone as awful as me" etc...
She started spouting WW nonsense like "Everyone is so unhappy in their marriages... they're afraid of sex, they think it's dirty. It's a beautiful thing, and I want to live my life to the fullest."

I calmly told her that the way men are, if a pretty, attractive, and seductive woman comes up to them and starts flirting, they are going to want to have sex with her. Especially if they are in a weakened marriage and in a vulnerable place. I said there is no victory in that - any girl could do it!

I told her that OM liked the attention and was seduced by her sexual attention, but he could have switched her head, her body, her personality, and it wouldn't have mattered. I said "you saw how quick he threw you under the bus". Conquering men is like taking candy from a baby - any woman can do it if they're reasonably attractive, confident, and forward. I said "he was feeding you lines about oh....you're my muse, you're my venus".. but all he wanted to do was f*** you".

It hit her to the core I think. She stood up, burst into tears, ran into her bedroom, and cried and cried. I tried to quietly go in and be near her, but she started pleading and screaming with me to "PLEASE GO AWAY, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME??? GO!!" She shoved me away so I left. She is extremely angry, didn't talk to me this morning. I don't know whether she is upset because it's true or what.

That's where we're at.

Honestly, I wouldn't take her back unless she invested in heavy duty, weekly therapy for the next year or two.

CH
Your WW will regret losing you no doubt. You are like many good men that want to rescue and fix things. You cant save someone from themselves if they don’t want the help. When you married your WW you both entered the marriage with certain expectations, hopes and dreams. Then real life sets.

Marriage is a partnership. It is intended for two people to work together for the common good of one another. Sure there is ups and downs in any relationship that have to be worked thru. But my concern for you is that you will spend the rest of your life trying to fix someone who simply doesn’t what your help.

Please understand my advice would be much different if you had children or years invested in this relationship. Not that yours is not worth saving, but your WW is not offering anything for you to work with. She wants to have an “open and free” life style. I could and would not live with that, it wouldn’t work for me. That my friend, is not what a marriage is supposed to be.

I don’t know you, but I know that if you want to raise a family and have a happy marriage you may want to listen to your wife. She is telling you she does not want to change. She probably does care that you are hurt by her actions, but not enough to change.

Merlin

Cripes, CH, your WW is looking more and more like a younger and more extreme version of my FWW. My FWW was saying things like I was so inhibited and had hangups, and that anything between two consenting adults is ok (apparently even if one of those adults is married to someone else. lol.)

I tried to show her that OM was little more than a player, and an experienced one at that. He used all the textbook moves for fast seduction used by pick-up artists. He even admitted to her that he first hooked up with her just to get a little pu$$y. He has also fathered 4 kids by 3 other women, only one of which was in marriage. When it finally began to sink in that she had been played, and that they weren't "kindred spirits from another lifetime, destined to find each other" (OM's words), she had a similar reaction.

The only bad thing for OM was that he actually fell in love with WW, thinking he had finally (at age 54) found someone he could have more than just a shallow, sexual relationship. Unfortunately for him, WW was just cake eating, and didn't want to leave me. He quickly was consumed by more jealousy that WW was still doing me, than I was with him. From what I can tell, he pretty much ended the A.

Your wife's display of anger may be due to a realization that maybe these men really only saw her as a sex object, which reinforces her insecurities and resentment at herself.

Galoot,

I am a long time member here (3+ years) and I could not help but notice your posts on women that where sexually abused as children. My X was molested by her father and brother and her actions in our marraige were absolutely bizarre.

3 times in 10 years she had EA's. Out of the blue, she would meet someone and "fall in love". To the point of being obsessed with them. The last one led to our divorce and it turned into a physical affair. All of this was so confusing to me and devasting as I kept thinking I was causing her to do this.

Something I read once is that a woman that has been abused by her father, will take that anger out on her husband. I can tell you first hand that is true. At times, especially when she had her "special male friends", she absolutely hated me. It truly was an awful time in my life.

I want to point out this is not a slam against women in anyway. Women are usually the victims of sexual abuse by the hands of men. Men that have been sexually abused are at high risk of sexually abusing others themseleves hence the ugly cycle continues.

If you would like to correspond, I would love to here your views on this subject. My email is:
bhinwi@hotmail.com

Thanks,
Keith

WW left for San Francisco yesterday to visit with old friends (and of course to escape the reality that she has ruined lives, has no job, and has a BIG mess to clean up financially and logistically). I let her go willingly because I am quite frankly tired of riding this emotional roller coaster. I asked her to tell me if she was going to cheat on me again (with a therapist present - we went to marital counseling on Sat.) and she promised... but I understand that that is a promise she will probably not be inclined to honor, especially in SF, drunk, vulnerable, and confused.

I told her before she left that I think I need to leave, based on the fact that she doesn't want to change and doesn't think she can be faithful or have a future in our marriage. She started sobbing, saying she thanked me for the time that I've given her, and asked if she could have a little more time. After thinking long and hard, and understanding that she is still in a fog (which she admits), I told her I would delay my decision for one week, with no promise on a positive outcome. Although she is emotional, she still does not want to humble herself or do the work it will take to reconcile.

SO.... after she left, I decided in my heart that separation is the answer. When she returns (she doesn't know when she will), I will tell her that I will honor my committment to wait 5 more days (unless of course she has cheated on me again, which would make it an easy decision), but that barring a miracle, we need to separate.

I want her to stay in this house, get a job, a roommate, and scrimp and save to make the mortgage (with her grandma's potential financial support). That would be a relief on me - I have the income to rent a cheap apartment or can stay with any number of friends.

I am at a point where I am over this marriage. Sayonara. She doesn't want to change.

My biggest struggle will be staying strong in the face of her fluctuating emotions, and not harboring jealousy, resentment, or wondering who she is or is not sleeping with. My family and friends are praying for my clarity and strength. If any of you are the praying kind and are inclined, I would be humbled and strengthened by your prayers as well.

Thoughts?

CH,
I'm sorry that you find yourself in this untenable position. It has occured to me (and I'm sure you) that your WW is simply not at all remoresful about what she has done to you and your M.

Many on these forums could have told you, tha MC while one partner is still in an A is pointless. I know you said she has cut off contact with her A partner, but her mindset is still that of a WW.

Her hiatas to SAN FRAN should be more than enough eveidence that your WW is not repentant and is simply not doing the extremely hard work of reconcilation. I am sorry for you my friend, but you are young with no children and this will work in your favor.

BTW, who is paying for this trip to SF?? If it is you, you need to stop this type of enabling behavior immediately!

I've read a lot of stories around here over the years, but yours is one that begs for Plan D. Please see a lawyer to protect whatever asetts you are entitled to. You can rest assured that your WW will be just as wayward in SF as anywhere else. Please protect yourself. And do not have SF with her ever again until she has been tested for all STD's.

I will pray for your well being, but not necessarily, your M

All Blessings,
Jerry

BTW: Your wife asks for more time and then takes off for San Fran? Doesn't sound like she is serious about that 5 days, does it? Her flight out of town makes that 5 day commitment null and void IMHO.

You are in my thoughts and prayers tonight buddy... Been down the same path and it is tough. Hang in there.

Just an update...

WW did not cheat on me in SF. I'm not in la-la-land or denial, I do believe her. She spent 2 nights there with her best friend. BTW it's driving distance from my house.

A is over since the day I exposed. Politician (OM) is a "Christian", in counseling with his wife, and surrounded by accountability partners. He has a LOT to lose if he messes up again (on the ballot for City Council this June, director for a Republican Congressman, etc.). By the way, I think politicians are slimeballs now.

WW is coming out of fog. Is scared to death of me leaving, but refusing to allow herself to ask me to stay (I saw a journal entry she wrote that said "all I want to do is beg him not to go, say "please, please, i'll be better, don't go!" - but that would be the worst possible mistake". So clearly, she is not allowing herself the opportunity to heal the marriage.

I truly believe she needs a dose of reality of what life will be like when I'm gone. And maybe the best thing for me is to stay gone and divorce. I'm starting to really believe that it is. I don't particularly want to gamble my future on her anymore, even though I loved her dearly.

We will retain ownership of the house until the divorce (live in CA, our market value has dropped $45,000+ in the last year, leaving us with almost no equity). We found her a roommate, a girl who is herself going through a separation. I move into an apartment this weekend. WW is distraught at our "perfectly decorated" home being halfed. Bummer!

We are keeping things honest, and civil. We are both hurting very deeply. I have Xanax and Ambien to help me get through the awful parts, and God, family, and friends (including my new MB buds!) for the rest of the time.

I'm disillusioned. A's are so common. I am a character educator for a school district and ethics/values are very real and important to me. There's got to be a woman out there with integrity. Somewhere...

The irony is, a month before this all began, WW was in a play where she portrayed a woman having an affair. It was a comedy. I laughed. Not laughing anymore.

I have offered to continue counseling with her during our six-month separation. We are going again tomorrow. Don't know if we will continue but for right now it can't hurt.

WW lost her job out of all this. Our friends are all grieving for her and us. She is subbing and applying at restaurants - having to swallow her pride and face the reality of this "freedom" that she so desparately wanted - now she has the real world and bills to pay. I will be fine financially.

She wrote in her journal that when she first went to a fundraiser with Gov. Schwarzenegger with OM (prior to the A), that she LOVED being in the company of "Real Adults" for a change - that she was one of them. She must have really believed that. But she was an outsider looking in.... it's sad.

What was the OMW's response when you told her?

You are too young to waste your life on this mess of a woman. She won't change until she doesn't have you to lean on anymore, but by then it will be too late. Cut the cord.

Just a quick update to bring closure...

We are divorced. The divorce became final on March 4th, 2008.
A week into the separation, I found she had started seeing another guy. I took that rightly to mean that sticking around any longer with her would be a waste of my time, so I told her we would have to divorce. (To which she started crying and said it's not what she wanted but she understood that I needed to - WWs are so weird!!!)

It was amicable, more or less! We went through divorce mediation, split everything fairly, and agreed to sell our house and split our equity 50/50 when it reaches the price we paid for it again. I was in therapy for several months, and it helped a lot. It's been almost a year since I found out, and I'm doing pretty damn good!

BTW I now have a BEAUTIFUL girlfriend who has also been through a divorce, and she thinks the world of me - and I of her. It is AMAZING how I was selling myself so short with my marriage and didn't even realize it. I didn't realize how happy a relationship really can be! I have learned so much about myself, even though, to be honest, it was emotional hell for several months afterward.

Thank you EVERYONE who helped me - I would not have been as prepared for this situation without all the wise counsel and guidance. Please know that you made a big difference in my life and I appreciate each of you.

And to anyone who is in a marriage where their spouse is emotionally checked out and cheats, just know that there is a whole wonderful world out there just waiting for you - keep your integrity, act with dignity and respect, and don't beat yourself up over your mistakes.

UPDATE on Ex-W:
She is still dating the guy she started seeing post separation (not the OM from the first A - this one is a 30-year old Mexican artist). She has lost most friends and picked up smoking cigs. She is rail-thin. I have seen her only once, and she did not look good or happy. Her boyfriend has two children (one that is 9 months old, the other 7ish). So she's an insta-mom! Sometimes I wonder if she wishes for her old life back. Who knows?

We are civil when we communicate (via email or text) and I bear her no ill will. In fact, she set me free for a second chance at living.

Thank you for the update.

The new girlfriend seems a very quick decision. One needs to properly grieve for xWW. If she is legitimate as your next wife, please get an ACCURATE reason for her divorce.

We want the best for you and her!