FH:

This is the last paragraph you posted on my "brutally honest" thread:

Remember, too, that I am not talking about "forgiveness" here. What I am talking about are "consequences" that apply even though the sin itself might be forgiven. DON'T loose sight of the fact that whether it might be loosing weight or breaking free from a porn addiction or an OW, "getting there" will take time, so a commitment from both of you to the "long haul" is essential. The past 6 years no longer count, because there is a CURRENT problem. The "clock" for recovery starts now. Yes, you may both have learned some things over the past 6 years, but we are talking about RECOVERY, not knowledge.

Hang in there. It may well be rough and bumpy at times, but if you both endure and stick with "the program," you will both get the marriage you both wish for.

Please help point me in the right direction for getting on "the program". I'm a mess of emotions still, very angry at this point, crying some. I suspect it's much like the grief cycle. Most days I want to recover my marriage, some days I don't.

Can you set me on the path?

Thanks much!!

I can try, onlyUcan.

You know about the "MB methods," the Rules of Caring, etc., so where do YOU think you need help?

Let me be a little blunt and frank here for a moment, if I can.

I believe that there is "more" to the "program" for a lot of people than just the methods of MB. They are great, as far as they go, and they really are about the only way to go for a lot of people.

But I'm not "a lot of people," so for me there is "more" that is needed. That is because I see things in terms of "saved" or "not saved" as a part of my relationship with Christ and that God is Lord of my life. That does NOT "release me" from having to do "my part" in the process nor does it "excuse" me from actually putting for the effort. But the FOCUS, the REASON, for the "doing" is centered in humble obedience to God regardless of what I might be feeling or how hard it might seem at the time.

For me to help you with a program may sometimes mean that I will be referring to Scripture, to the Word of God, and I don't want to offend you as we are of differing beliefs concerning Jesus Christ. As long as you understand that and it won't offend you, I will try to "stay on point" and not be "offensive." I do realize that people do perceive things differently from time to time, so if I should say something that offends you, please don't hesitate to say so.


Having said that, let's start with your first request;

"Please help point me in the right direction for getting on "the program"."

Okay, imho, the "right" direction is Godward. Here is the "Truth," whatever we choose to do will either lead us TOWARD God or AWAY from God. So which direction do you want to go?

What about your husband? Which direction do you think he wants to go?

FH,

I know that our situation needs much more than just the MB principles, they are a terrific guide and filled with promise, but I know that without the complete, surrender to Christ and His ways, we will sink. That could be the very underlying problem in why this has taken so long in the first place.

My H was born and raised in the Church of Christ before converting to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS). I was born and raised LDS. We both have similar beliefs before he converted. I have read many of your posts and recently the posts on How Satan Works and I believe that my beliefs are in alignment with yours so I feel that your words will be a tremendous benefit for me.

I too believe that there is "more" that is needed with me and with my M. I'm not afraid of the hard work that is needed to accompany my faith. I'm not looking for an easy way out and I know that simply saying I believe in Christ is not the end all.

My H wants a true chance at Recovery. He is more humbled than I have ever seen him. He has told me that my words have the most effect on him and that when I hurt him, it is hard for him to get me to see that and in turn, he fights back and hurts me thru these EA's. I'm not giving him an excuse and an easy way out by accepting all the blame, but if there is some truth in all of that, I want to work on it. Also, I know that I can only be responsible for myself. I would love it if he would post and actually get some good feedback on where to recover from where he's at.

I know that he loves me and our family. I know that he has worked hard to get as far as he has and things are much better than they were back in 02 when I first started on this board and I believe that he does want to do whatever it takes.

I want to let go of the anger because I know that it is Satan's pathway into my heart and destroying my M. I want to let go of the nightmares and the visions of all the past hurts. I have been praying and it has been helping.

When you posted that the past 6 years is over and we have a current problem, I felt a glimmer of hope. I'd like to deal with this problem, let the other go and build on a real recovery path.

Thanks for listening!

oUc - Listening is easy. I thought you were looking for some suggestions and advice, but I saw no questions in your post.

Was my initial response enough, or is there anything besides a "listening ear" that you think you need?

FH,

Your words gave me more than you may have realized, both on my original post and this one. I intently read each and every word that you wrote and feel that I am the same in not being able to do this alone and needing more. I need to go Godward, not just forward as you have suggested. It may seem simple to you, but I feel that you have assisted in shaking me out of my "funk".

H found a book that I had purchased and he told me he has started to read it and do the workbook. It's called Exemplary Husband - Bible Perspective. The one for me is Excellent Wife - Bible Perspective.

All day after your post, each time that I was feeling angry or upset, I kept reminding myself that I needed to do this God's way, not my way. We went out of town last night and stayed until today. It was a really great time. He has answered all of my questions very forthright. What I realized is this is "my" life and "my" husband and he loves "me". I'm the only one that he has read scriptures with, prayed with, studied with, etc. I am the only one that he has been his authentic self with. The others are just his terrible choice of coping that he needs to work on. Not giving him any excuses, just focusing on me and what I need to do.

Luv u my friend! I also read yours and a few others posts on a regular basis that give me perspective.

Thanks again!

FH,

OK so I fooled myself into thinking I was "ready" to move forward and had all the tools I needed in my fanny pack.

So I'm going back to basics. I just printed the EN and LB questionaires for us to fill out tonight. We did this back in 02, but obviously as you say, there is a CURRENT problem and the prior 6 years don't count, so to speak.

So I've been toxic this week, filled with resentment. I just read some basic concepts again and of course I wanted to validate that I was right in my resentment, but instead I re-read what I already know about LB-ing. Sheesh!

So...my questions are as follows:

In your opinion (because I know you will answer me with actions that require me to learn through Christ).

1) what should I do when I am feeling this overwhelming resentment? SH states that the repeat offenders have the worst resentment in their M and he doesn't hold out much hope for full recovery from this kind of situation. I can see why he would say that.

2) how can I take full accountability for my toxicity when I am feeling so much resentment?

3) what should I do when I am obsessing? SH also discusses people like "me" that obsess. As a matter of fact, I am OCD so I know that is not helping this.


Ok, this is a good start and covers where I am right now. I'm going to treat myself like a newbie because in this moment, I really am.

Wow! That was a shocking experience. Some of it I assumed would turn out the way it did, but some of it, I'm still flabbergasted!

WH commented that this was better served this time. Probably because we were still newly into our M when all this started in 02 and just getting to know one another, combined with the fact that he was probably in fear of being honest with me about how he felt at the time because he was already in so much hot water.

Summary:

* We have some similar EN's but definite different priority ones.

* He rated me negative on almost everything. OK, tip me off my righteous high horse.

* He rated me high on Attractive Spouse and I've been beating myself up about being too fat, etc. He said that a woman can be in physical shape and then have bad personal hygiene, dress poorly, etc. And on the reverse, he said a "big girl" (guess that's what I am these days LOL!) can dress attractive, have personal hygiene, a great hairstyle and be beautiful. Hey, I'll take what I can get at this point. That was a definite deposit in the Love Bank. Maybe that will take some of the self induced pressure off as I lose weight for my HEALTH!

* I rated him 3 (highest) on several items. I only rated him negative on 2. But then again, I wasn't complaining about him meeting my EN's, just about the infidelity.

* I finally had the courage to move Financial Support to one of my top 5 needs and to ask for what I want. I want the roles to be reversed so that he can provide more of the FS and I can provide the majority of the DS.

* Neither of us were surprised about our LB answers.

* Conversation was his highest need. He LOVES to talk and when we were first dating, I loved to listen. Now....you can probably guess...I have no patience for his long winded conversations, taking forever to get to the point. It drives my kids crazy too. WOW! This is a self induced 2 X 4. Duh!! This is the very thing that he was getting from OW. That's why it was never about a PA, always EA because he was looking for someone to fulfill the need for listening to him, thinking that his conversations were of importance. And it even crosses over into Admiration which is high on his list as well. Sheesh! I used to be so good at that. Guess I better be honest with myself and get a handle on this one if I don't want to keep this cycle going.

I asked the Moderators to change my thread to include "anyone else learning thru Christ" for 2 reasons:

1) I think others will learn greatly from what FH posts.


2) I think there are others out there that can give me great advice in this regard as well.



I just PLEASE ask that you honor my request in wanting to hear from others that are learning thru Christ. Please don't use my post to bash any religions or posters, especially FH's views since I primarily asked for his support and believe that FOR ME, it works beautifully.


Love to all of you fellow MBer's. And my prayers go out for all of us walking this path to Recovery.

Are you keeping the letter of the law or the spirit of the law? (sometime if you have access to the specific genre of DVDs, watch "The RM" and see the letter of the law and keeping up with or even outdoing the Jones' in action while the spirit of the law gets lost for a while) Remember that God doesn't give us more than we can handle, but sometimes we sign up for more than we can - so stop signing up - Jesus taught balance - He went off into the wilderness by Himself several times - before He could calm the waves, He had spent time in solitude!
Plaster this note on your mirror "EXPECTATIONS ARE SIMPLY PRE-MEDITATED RESENTMENTS". If you are finding yourself resentful and overflowing with emotional poison, chances are, you have expectations that aren't, can't or shouldn't be met.
If you can't beat it, join it! Put the obsession to work for you. David Allen wrote a book called "Getting Things Done" that really helps put a chaotic life in order. Then compartmentalize. When you've got this done, and that done, and yes, that over there handled too, then you can spend ten minutes worrying about your relationship


There are a couple of very important things to do that I haven't already mentioned. If you are going to detox, you have to do it physically and spiritually. Both. Not just one.

You work a schedule like mine and you're the primary income like I am. And I wound up in the hospital for several major tests and my hormones went wacky on me. My body FORCED me to slow down. And yet I'm up at midnight typing this - insomnia is the root problem here and I'm losing the fight tonight. You can't burn the candle at both ends and the middle and expect to be happy joyous and free! Are you fighting your body to keep going? Quick breakfasts, high fat lunches, and what constitutes a diet largely made of white carbohydrates and other sugars or artificial sweeteners, processed foods, caffeine and fat? No exercise? no fresh air for that brain to do all the work it needs to do? Yep - I live that world!

Jesus says "Be still" in order to know Him. He promises us rest. Not the kind of rest that lifts six figures of debt off one's shoulders, but the kind of peace that lets you know everything is going to be right in His perfect way. Study those scriptures on your own. Read Proverbs. Read the Parables. Read the whole book of James and underline all the instruction about emotional/thought/action management there! Read King Benjamin's address again and again. Read the last three chapters of the whole book. Read Ether 12. Read it again. Feast on the words of the scriptures you have.

KA,

My VT (who is a nurse) once told me that Insomnia induced Psychosis is real. LOL!

Excellent post, I'm going to soak it all in before replying.

Off to bed for the night, my H is done watching TV (Stargate Atlantis) and he's ready for bed so I'm going to sign off.

Thanks again. I look forward to learning from you.

OUC

i would check into the books by neil t. anderson.

bondage breakers is one by him i would recommend.

god would not wan you obsessing. i believe satan would though. he wants to keep you in bondage and keep you at a place of not moving forward.

this book taught me a lot and helped me a lot.

mlhb

Plaster this note on your mirror "EXPECTATIONS ARE SIMPLY PRE-MEDITATED RESENTMENTS". If you are finding yourself resentful and overflowing with emotional poison, chances are, you have expectations that aren't, can't or shouldn't be met.

I have much trouble with this personally. How can you not have expectations of people, of situations, whatever. The "Humble Servant" attitude we are supposed to reflect like Jesus is very difficult with our "Taker" natures in a "Me" oriented society.

And where do you draw the line? For example, shouldn't my expectation been that my ex-wife would not have an affair?

Of course, I have forgiven her, but during our marriage this expectation was broken and caused much toxicity for many months before I came to forgive

i think there is a difference grindn.

i do think when we marry someone we certainly should have the expectation that they won't cheat. if you go into a marriage with no expectations i think that would be very, bluntly put, stupid.

when new to recovery however, i would think that having expectations such as everything will be ok overnight, or on a certain unrealistic time scale, could set you up for failure and resentments.

when my ex and i separated the first time, and then he moved back, i had very high expectations that things would be better instantly. that he would come home and jump through hoops for me and make all the changes i wanted immediately. when then did not happen i grew very resentful and angry and said "screw it" and asked him to leave again. my expectations were way too high and i had no patience. at that time,when he first came home, if i had had mb, we probably would have made it. but my making him leave again, because of my expectations, pretty much put the last nail in our coffin. it was awful from that point on.

that is what i see "expectations" meaning in this context.

mlhb

grindnfool - I categorially reject that "Bumper Sticker" pseudo-philosophy.

We were all created BY God and FOR God. He did so with the "expectation" of a returned love for Him by us and the willing choice to submit our "free will" to His Will as the "measure" of how we live out our lives. WE "screwed it up," and God still expects us to "choose God," that is why He even provided Jesus Christ (the second person of the Godhead) to provide us with the means by which we COULD have a restored relationship with Him.

The "expectation" is that marriage, and the performance of the roles of husband and wife in the marriage, will be as God ordained marriage to be. God doesn't "screw up" marriages, we do. And there is an expectation that God will restore even a broken marriage IF the husband and wife "do it HIS way, not their way."

God bless.

mlhb,

I agree. When I am obsessing, I feel toxic and I know that is the furthest thing from moving Godward. I get stuck and I need ideas on how to get unstuck.

I just popped on Amazon.com and looked up the Bondage Breakers book. I also see that this author has written a book called The Steps to Freedom in Christ. I think I'll order both.

Thank you!!

grind,

I agree with you that we should have expectations in our M. I think being the obsessive type, mine cross the line and I end up having exactly what KA described as pre-meditated resentments. And furthermore, exactly what mlhb describes in keeping the bar raised so high that my FWH could never possibly obtain it.

It's good to have healthy expectations, I still will always have the ones that say I expect him not to have A's, I expect that he will honor me as his wife, be the head of our household, etc. And he should expect the same for me. God did not put us on this earth without his own set of expectations and I accept, respect and honor those.

I cross the line with my OCD and I know that I "set him up". But when I'm in the middle of the resentment, it's the last thing that I want to hear or even think about. And it's HARD for me to come out of it. I'm feeling good this morning, but I need to find ways to combat the moments when I get so upset.

KA's reminder that I'm setting myself up by going down this pre-meditated path will maybe help me "think" about it and perhaps take a different route.

Thank you!

FH
So what I hear you saying is that expectations are acceptable provided they are in-line with God's word and his will?

This is my feeling, but since I am not as knowledgeable as I should be in the Word, and I can not always recognize when I am being spoke to, I fail alot. Good thing God's grace is free.

I do believe I keep trying each day. That is the best I can do since I am weak.

the books are very good and will be helpful. i am finishing my degree currently in human services with an emphasis on counseling. i ordered his book " christ centered therapy" as i want to be able to counsel from the perspective.

mlhb

That is an excellent question. I think I waiver in that and perhaps this is the heart of much of my unhappiness. Being OCD, it is easy to know the letter of the law and practice it "by appearance"; that's never been my intention, nor did I even think I was doing that. But I am open to the possibility that it is true based on how I have been acting and feeling through all of this.

I know the difference and I know how living the Spirit of the law feels so it's time for me to work on that. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I'll ponder my steps to realign myself there.



Good point. And being OCD, of course I am signing up for too much and when the plate is so full, I am neglecting the more important parts of my life, relationship with Christ, relationship with H, etc. I think focusing on this balance and spending time in personal study and solitude reconnecting with my Father in Heaven through His son, Jesus Christ will help me with what we discussed above as well.


This one is HUGE for me. H and I started using South Beach for the recipes and overall healthy eating style. It also gave us a way to spend time together in the kitchen and for me to learn more about cooking. He is a great cook, I am still learning. During the few weeks we were on track, I felt so much better in my overall health. Of course, I lost some weight as well, but most important I noticed that my fatigue was reduced significantly, even my insomnia. Then our new grandson got meningitis, I got walking pneumonia and H got strep throat. We had a month of very sick people in our house and went completely back to our old ways. The last few weeks while going through this new relapse with him, I have probably eaten fast food as every meal. He cooked me dinner the other night as a peace offering, but otherwise, I have treated my physical body very poorly during this mess. Probably another reason that I have felt so toxic. Time to get control of that! H is very supportive in eating healthy so I know that I can make this change with my own committment to be healthy and detox.


Thank you. And thank you for the scripture references, some of those have always been my very favorites.

I appreciate the perspective of fellow MBers, even though sometimes things might feel like..duh!, why don't you get it? I think all of us understand why it takes awhile.

mlhb,

Congratulations, I think that is fantastic. I truly believe the only way is through Christ. I know that I am not perfect, but I also know that without Him and without my Father in Heaven, I am nothing. I don't fool myself into thinking I can do this alone.

I hear so many people in pain and I wish that they had that to fall back on. I know that my burdens may feel heavy but I have a faith and trust that I am not alone.

Now..just need to focus on doing my part.