Like this trip...

How direct do you feel you were?

"I will not let D go on that trip."
"Do not reserve tickets, D is not going on that trip."
"You will be wasting money if you buy those tickets, she is not going."

Sometimes I think we talk like there is room for negotiating, and it comes out like we're undecided or don't have strong feelings about it.

But when we are direct, I think our husbands play on our desire for connection by being "wounded".

Saying NO in a direct manner doesn't mean there is no room for negotiation, but it makes our current position clear.

My self talk is a little different. I think that what I'm asking for, that we can negotiate and find a way for him to provide that in a way that he's enthusiastic. We usually get along really well when we're not working through these IB issues. But I don't know when he'll be ready. Sometimes he is, and sometimes he's not. I think the alcohol confuses the matter for both of us.


I understand what you're saying here. I have had a problem with emotional eating for a long time, and it took me a long time, even after I got here, to learn to work with that in a healthy way. H resorted to really controlling behaviors, like throwing away food, the same way that I had hid his beer. I bring that up to say that I understand how it can look like someone trying to take away something I feel entitled to.



Yes, when we're not struggling on an issue, things click really well for us now, too. I totally get what you're saying about short and direct. That helps us, too, when we're not working on some other issue in the way (PA, resentment).

Telly, I thank you so much for being here, and for clarifying for me. I know how much your time is at a premium. I am really thrilled and it gives me hope to hear that your family is having success with this and growing closer.

Telly, I'm so glad that you came back, too. I think this was really important for me to hear.


Okay, and my fear about saying this is that I think it reinforces to me and to him that in our house, we make unilateral decisions when the negotiation isn't going where we want it to.

I think you helped me clarify about this, that some things we negotiate, and other things are boundary decisions. Some things are not negotiable to me, like safety, and other things are negotiable. I see how when he first brought this up, I hadn't thought it through to where I was sure that this was something that wasn't open to negotiation. It takes me some time to exhaust the alternatives in my head (and in this case, on the board) to realize that.


Yeah, I think that's where it helps to know that it's not our responsibility, or even within our ability, to protect them from ever getting wounded. Our responsibility is to not cause the wound ourselves. And when we can, to give them the information they need about dangers that they may not see.


This is really thought-provoking for me. I'm going to chew on it. Before all this, I've been working on the Dialogical speaking I learned about on the Al Turtle site, instead of MasterTalk. That's emphasizes that something is our own perspective, like, "I think this is a bad idea." instead of "This is a bad idea." It deals with how we describe what we see, and I don't remember it talking about decision making. So I was describing from my perspective. "I don't want DD12 to go for 6 weeks, just for the summer camp. I'm asking you not to take her. Can I count on you not to book anything until we have an agreement we're both happy with?" I thought that I was clear and direct.

Are you certain that this is the best way to frame your statements of expectation? The problem for me is that though you say there is room for negotiation, it isn't not clearly implied. It's as though there is an assumption that your word is final. If the H is in Taker mode, it ain't gonna wash.

The first question I would ask is, "What makes your word gospel?". Role playing here btw - not trying to pick an argument. I get plenty of those in real life with the XW - LOL!

A stubborn response is, "No, I AM taking her. Period.". Now it's the proverbial immovable force vs the irresistible object. One person will move of course, but when both people are so dug in and then one of them loses, there is going to be some pain. Even the person who wins, actually loses in the long run.

Telly,

I liked your earlier post about communicating in a direct fashion to men. I can tell you as man that the direct method will be the most effective. I often feel like I need a decoder when talking to a woman. I am not used to attempt to read between the lines. It might be very revealing to sometime observe in a detached fashion how men communicate with themselves, particularly among close friends. Men tend to say a lot without saying much. There's always a non-verbal subtext.

Now, on to the part that I quoted above. How does saying no imply that negotiation is possible. If you said no to me I would not expect that there would be a possibility of negotiation and would view it more as your ultimatum. Why not instead say "Let's negotiate this."?

Booka, I really liked two of the comments you made in this post.

1. I am not used to attempt to read between the lines.
2. Men tend to say a lot without saying much. There's always a non-verbal subtext.

To my mind, this makes men and women alike. Men feel they need to read between the lines because they don't understand the female subtext. Women don't understand men because they don't understand the male subtext.

I often find myself saying to my dh "and what does THAT mean?" to which he replies "Just what I said". It was worse when we first got married, but has improved over the years as I've gotten better at reading him. He has made a similar improvement in reading me.

With the California trip situation however, I do think being upfront and honest about it is the best policy. I would say "I don't want you taking dd to california with you". If your husband chooses to do this anyway, then that is a separate issue for you to sort out. My feeling is that ears' husband is used to a lot of independent behaviour.

I'm rereading The Dance Of Anger, and I'm getting so much more out of it this time. Kinda funny, that happens with most books that I read, I pick it back up knowing I need right now something that's in there, even though I'm not clear on what. And then I find it!

In MC, I'm learning a lot about H's stuff. WFG, about the IB, he says this is about his relationship with his brother, that his brother was cruel and criticized everything he did, and was physically abusive. That when I tell him something he does bothers me, that he feels under the thumb all over again.

I'm kind of heading two ways in my thoughts. On one hand, he realy is doing this MC, homework and everything, and I know how hard that is. And I eat that up. On the other hand, his comments about wanting to split up all week make it really clear that he puts his own needs before our marriage, and I don't see that changing.

Booka's push-pull analogy is really intersting. I'd feel more comfortable to be honest and retreat if i didn't feel so desparate. I don't want to quit the day before the miracle, you know? That's a good signal to me to check my intent. Maybe that's why in Imago there's an inital commitment not to leave, because this is where we become less willing to stand up for the marriage, out of fear of losing it.

Yeah. H wants me and DD7 to go out to meet up with them for the week of 4th of July. I initially consented, even thought it might be fun, but now thinking about it makes me want to puke.

The control thing is a really hard issue to resolve. I have foo issues that make it feel safe to be controlling because I don't trust people to watch out for my welfare. This comes out in my interactions with my dh. But I have to try consciously to do the right thing in spite of the lessons I learned from my foo.

I think your dh is using his foo as an excuse to do independent behaviour. I'm not sure how you can resolve this other than having strong boundaries.

One boundary you may want to try is that you will not listen to him talking about wanting to split up. He is using it as a threat in order to get his own way. I like the poster that said "I don't talk divorce, I talk marriage".

I have those concerns, too. I have my own boundaries to keep me safe, boundaries that get clarified to me by being and thinking through these situations. It clarifies for me where it is unreasonable to trust H to watch out for my welfare and our kids' welfare where he chooses to see a conflict between that and his own welfare.

I think the idea of identifying the FOO issue is that he can use that information to realize that's not the situation today, and make more informed choices. Like you said, I can protect myself through strong boundaries.


I had communicated this, but then didn't reinforce the boundary. I am prepared to do that now. I told him if he thought that, to email it instead and we'll discuss it at another time.

ETA: Yesterday, H had another push-shove incident with DD12. The last time was a year ago, and H promised this wouldn't happen again. I think I handled the crisis moment well. DD12 came inside to tell me, crying and screaming, and I told her she's safe now, and asked her if she told her Dad, and then she did. I told her that I would protect her, and we'll work this out together in a calmer moment. That part didn't go as I expected.

H again insists that he did nothing wrong. We're dog-sitting for a firned, and they were changing the gerbils' litter. The dog was digging into the bag, and DD7 and 12 were laughing instead of stopping her. H grabbed DD12's arm hard to get her out of the way to get to the bag, picked it up, and hit DD12 hard in the stomach handing her the bag to go throw away.

I understand about urgency, because the dog did throw up from that, but I believe we can handle these situations without roughhousing the kids. I don't understand how we can make enough progress that we go through a year without a physical incident between the two of them, and now this again. I think it's reflecting the tensions we're having. I'm going to think on a plan for this. Definitely I don't want DD12 to comtinue going through this.

Hi ears,

First, thanks for your nice comments to me the other day... I needed to hear them.

Second, I'm sorry for my poorly phrased statement suggestions (note to self: never write suggestions for phrases when in a hurry!). I think you understood my point though, which is that a strong feeling of NO ought to be communicated when it is felt... perhaps particularly when one is in a relationship with someone who will forge ahead if they sense the least bit of hesitancy.

I've found that it's much easier to go back and negotiate (and have my husband hear me) when he knows I'm starting from a place where I know my current mind to be no... I mean, isn't that the idea? THat we have to find something we can both be enthusiastic about? How can we do that if we don't know where someone is UNwilling to go, or what they are UNwilling to do?

On another note, I notice my daughter telling me not to "grab" her sometimes when I'm moving her out of the way, or even drawing her towards me for a hug that she wants... she gets this from my H, I'm sure, as he is not very touchy. My point is that it's possible your daughter experiences those interactions differently than someone else might.

I don't think someone doing that to me (moving me out of the way and then tossing the bag at my stomach) would have triggered tears, even at 12... My H on the other hand would have been deeply offended. Of course, if I wasn't getting along well with this person, and they weren't being loving to me in other contexts, and this were my only points of relating to them them yes, I would be hurt and sad.

I don't know what to advise you about your H, but perhaps you can use this as an opportunity to help your D know herself better... what sorts of things hurt her, cause her to feel unloved or scared. What things make her feel loved and cared for and safe... Then perhaps she can communicate those to your H herself as another exercise in standing up for herself now, and in the future (preventatively and in other relationships).

If I'd been honest with myself about what I needed to feel loved (if I'd experienced enough of it growing up to differentiate what I wanted from what I appreciated out of desperation), I might have recognized deficiencies in my relationship when we were dating...

Anyway, I'm sorry that interaction occurred between your H and D.

I do understand that I need to make it clear when my current posisiton is that I am unenthusiastic about something. My H clarified in counseling that he in fact did understand that my position was NO, and that was WHY he booked the tickets, to assert that this was YES. So it was very much the situation Seabird described.


Telly, I wasn't there, but by DD12's reaction, and from my history with H and FOO, I filter this as a forceful, painful grabbing. H didn't dispute this, but rather explained why it was necessary. One that did not leave a mark on her fair skin this time, but others times has.

ETA: We got to work this out today. We brought a very close friend's child with us today, and when we dropped her off, it looked like she was in trouble. H called the mom to say that he was concerned about her getting severely punished, and the mom clarified about it. I understand that this may not have been our business, but I was glad that he was able to express his concern, anyhow. H and I talked about how we are different today, how we don't have to be silent when we fear for others, the way we had to as kids. It was a good opportunity to bring up what happened yesterday, and H explained it not as punishment, but as a safety issue for the dog. I asked him why he didn't clarify further yesterday, and he said that he did. DD12 looked comfortable with her Dad today, and even last night.

Thanks, Telly, about sharing your experience with your daughter, too.

I'm going to really muddy the waters on this one. Is it all possible that DD12 has dramatized the issue in order to deflect from her own mistake? It could be that her dad was frustrated that she didn't do anything to stop the dog and that she knew better given her age. Emabarrased and fearful of getting into trouble, perhaps she purposely overreacted to his handling of the situation in order to put the onus on him.

This is just an off the cuff supposition as I'm not real familiar with the history and general likelihood that he would hurt the kids.

Seabird, that is a possibility, that she didn't want to get in trouble with me. Actually, I'm not trying to justify, but that does fit the events better. He came in and asked if I knew what DD12 did, and told me, and she came in and said that she asked her Dad for help and he didn't listen, then asked if he told me what he'd done, to push and shove her and the dog. She wasn't crying and yelling before he came in.

H and I both have been successful for the most part in changing our parenting style with the kids. I wasn't prepared for the flood of anger and despair at H and at myself that I felt the other day when we were back in a situation that felt so similar again. I need to think through what I can do to know that my kids are okay.

It's frustrating and sad to think that our children's own survival instincts can over ride logic to the point that they will submarine us, their parents, in order to avoid trouble. I'm still not saying that your DD did this. I'm just reflecting on the fact that we, all of us as parents, see that it's possible.

Equally frustrating is that our children don't realize how badly they might be cutting their noses off despite their faces. We get so worried about not bringing our children into the middle of our marital (and in my case, divorced) strife, that sometimes we forget that they volunteer if they see an opportunity to get what they want, or to avoid what they don't want.

I guess it illustrates even more the need for parents to present a united front to their children, whether married, separated, or divorced.

My DD6 has already gotten savvy to this. One evening when the kids were with me, I wouldn't let DD6 have her way on something. I think I wanted them to go to bed a little early, because they'd had a long day, no naps, and we were to be up early in the morning. DD6, already tired and cranky, decided to drop me in the grease with her mother during their "good night phone call". She began crying on the phone about how I wouldn't let them stay up, yada, yada, yada... She then gets this impish grin on her face while handing me the phone and says, "Mommy wants to talk to you.".

I was furious... The XW wanted to know what was going on and I explained the situation. She replied that she understood and that she would "let me handle it". I was incensed. I replied that of course I would handle it and I didn't need anyone else's approval. It was my house, and my rules. In my opinion, the XW should have refused DD6's attempts to, as I saw it, play both ends against the middle. This is exactly what I said to the XW.

It's a pity that neither one of us can muster enough trust in the other to simply stand back and stay out of it when the other makes a choice w/re to the kids.

I understand that you felt reactive when your DD gave her story and that it took you back to an old, bad place. I suspect that it might do the M good if he knows that you're in his corner unconditionally. Your H could feel a lot of resentment and hurt if he thinks that you've automatically taken your DD's side over his.

Oh yes! If I'm not careful, my boys do this also - come crying to me about something H has done. I often react in my emotions and come out "scolding" H, which doesn't go over very well at all. And often it turns out I probably would have agreed with H's actions if I had observed everything that happened to lead up to it. Sometimes I truly think he is too harsh or too rough, but not nearly as often as the DS6's try to make it out to be.

Wow, SB, it's a real eye-opener to me that your DD6 (same age as my kids) actually gave an impish grin when she said "Mommy wants to talk to you." My kids use the same phrase, and of course H reacts defensively. The fact that your DD obviously knew exactly what she was doing, and was able to act one way to her mom and a completely different way toward you, helps me see how very adept kids can be at manipulating one parent against the other. It also helps me understand how H feels when it happens. Thanks for sharing that story.

jayne - I will readily admit that I am stricter than the XW. I will also admit that I overreact at times and go too far when I've reached my limit. I usually discover this right after the fact, but it's still too late IMO. And it's never physical - usually just being too loud, or not knowing when to stop the scolding after the lesson has been learned. I will do my best to sit down with the kids and explain the situation and even apologize afterward when that happens. I do miss the balance that the XW brought to the table and it's been a huge challenge to learn how to moderate on my own. My family was always pretty strict, and they don't see anything wrong with how I act around my kids. My concerns about my level of intensity are my own.

I'm better than I used to be, and head and shoulders above my own parents. I look for greater signs from my kids like how they regard me during all other times. I'm still working to be better though.

Yes, often my H is more strict than me also. Unlike you, sometimes it does get physical - a recent incident involved pulling by the ears. So I'm torn between stepping in to protect the kids vs. being respectful of the different parenting styles of fathers and mothers, and not DJing.

While H is more strict, IMHO he is also less consistent. He lets the kids get away with not doing what he says a lot of the time, and then every now and then enforces it with a vengeance. I am trying to implement consistency by verbally telling the kids, in front of H, that when I tell them to do something I expect them to do it and not wait for me to yell or threaten. If they wait until I start to put them in time out, that's too late - they still get the time out.

Seabird, Jayne, thanks for the examples with your kids. I do understand how kids can act out because there's something wrong and they don't know what it is, or if they want attention and didn't think through how to ask for it in a more productive way I will talk with DD12 about this, and see what she thinks, now that a little time has passed.



That's a great goal, to be in H's corner. I think for me that would take knowing that he's in my corner, too. I believe that we have a plan that if we can stick with it, we can build trust again.

Jayne, I can so relate! Up until a year ago, H and DD12 did get into it physically, too. Have you explained to your H what a trigger that this is for you as a mother and an individual? Would this be honest to say?

"I'm torn between stepping in to protect the kids vs. being respectful of the different parenting styles of fathers and mothers. When I was young, I had to watch my sibling go through a similar experience.... I promised myself that when I had kids, that I would protect them from feeling unsafe in that way. This is how I make peace with myself, knowing that as an adult, I can protect myself and my kids from feeling that way when they are with their parents. That they can trust that they are being protected. It takes more effort up front, but I am willing to put the effort in to parent the way that I do now.

Now as a grown up, it causes me so much pain to watch my kids suffer, the ones that I promised myself that I would protect, and watch them suffer when there are other options available."

Also, what are the DJS that come with that? Do you share these with your H, clarifying to find where the truth is? "I was really mad thinking that you pulled DD6A's ear the other day because you don't care if he feels pain, as long as he stops bothering you. But I don't really know why you you did that. How does that make sense to you?"