First of all we are not married but have been together for 6 years and lived together in my flat for about 4 of those and for many years I have considered us virtually married.

I now know that she has started seeing someone from work behind my back.

Last week she came home a bit late more often than usual and on Thursday 22nd she said she was meeting a girlfriend for a drink after work although when questioned about it didn't have much to say about the conversation.
The next day she went to her parents' house after work who later on brought her home. I know that she had been discussing our relationship with her mum because that evening I could see something was wrong on her face and she revealed the doubts she was now having about our relationship. I very much doubt she mentioned the affair to her mum.

On the Sunday I noticed her texting on her phone and got suspicious. After a little snooping I found some incriminating messages from a guy along the lines of "You looked so hot today" and "I meant what I said, now even more so".

This hit home hard so I installed a keylogger on the computer which trapped her sending a message on Facebook to the same person that same evening, "I'm really looking forward to seeing you on Tuesday XXX"

That Tuesday morning she spent an unusual amount of time getting ready for work making herself look nice (not that she doesn't always), in fact she was late for work.
As I suspected she said she would be home late as she had to make up the time. Her working day would normally end at 17:30 so I called her at the office at 17:40 only to be answered by a security guard to say they had all gone home.

She got home a bit earlier than I thought she would to find me crying. So she put her arms around me for a while until I composed myself. She just thinks I was upset about what she said that Friday.
She then took a shower which is very unusual for her when getting home from work but you can put two & two together.
This next bit is disgusting but I checked her panties/knickers and they were still wet from her excitement earlier.
I asked her what time she managed to get away from work and she said, just after 18:00.


Well I've checked this guy out on her Facebook and it seems he is fairly new (6 months) to the company and lives in the same town as their work place.

I'm devastated because the future I thought I was going to have with her is in doubt.
I'm a sensible thinker and I do feel that this is salvageable.
I know and affair is happening, but exactly how long and how far it has gone I don't know.

I've done nothing but research the correct course of action these past couple of days and I found MarriageBuilders.com.
I've read The Most Important Emotional Needs bit and have printed out the questionaire which I plan to give her.
But there is so much information I can't digest it quick enough and I know time could be of the essence.

I had read somewhere that I should not disclose the fact that I know of the affair and that in the beginning I should just up my game by changing myself to recognise her needs. Hopefully she would come to her senses after which I would reveal that I knew what was going on.
However I have just read on this forum that outing the affair is the first thing I should do.

With no marriage and no kids it will be much easier for her to leave and live with this guy. I'm just worried that in the above text "I meant what I said, now even more so" could have been something like "Leave him and come and live with me."
Of course she hasn't done this so there must be hope.
She's just enjoying the best of both worlds right now.

If I tell her I know and she doesn't want to give up the affair I'd have to ask her to move out. If she moves out I won't be able to rebuild and she'd have more time to be with this guy.

Man this is difficult, I respect anyone that has actually read all this!

So the main question is:

Should I disclose that I know or continue to keep quiet and plan ahead?

Thanks!

"Virtually married" and "married" are not the same thing.



That would depend on exactly what you're planning for.

Let's summarize your situation:
No marriage
No children
No joint property (correct?)
She's cheating on you.

Sorry, but I think the "sensible" approach might be to gracefully exit the situation. Trying to continue a relationship with someone who cheated on you in the hopes of recovering it and making it more permanent? Well, guess what - I did that, and guess what brought me here to MB 13 years afterwards...

Seems like you have all the evidence you need to confirm. Waiting i s just killing you. Find out if her work has any policies on relationships during work. But get it out there so you don't have to keep going thru this.

Thank you ManInMotion for your insight.


It still feels pretty painful.
I know we haven't had a big day and don't have a signed bit of paper that is recognised by the law but we have been inseparable (until recently ) during our relationship that has lasted much longer than many many marriages. This is why I say virtually married and for all purposes figured I would treat as we were and handle it in the same way?
True with my 'single' status I could walk away without the hassle & expense caused by children and divorces and I'm sure there are many on this site that would love to be in my position right now but I'm trying to think about the future.


I was hoping for marriage, a nice home and children.
Things we have discussed lightly together.
I'm 33 and don't want to start again now when I thought I had found the one.

I understand what you're saying and from what you've said there is no hope and all is dead.
I don't think I'm ready to give up that easily.

ManInMotion, I can see you're a longtime respected poster here and your angle has certainly given me something to think about.
This is in no way a dig at you but am I just going to find advice here from people that wish they never got married in the first place?

Regards.

Just a bit of reality DW. Most of us don't feel all Marriages are worth saving, and you aren't even married. You have a long history together, and I respect that, my W and I lived together for 6 years before we got married. The fact that I am here now posting to you should show you where that got me.

Anyhow, what you decide to do is up to you, but you need to know a few things first. Recovering from infidelity is really really difficult even under the most ideal circumstances. It takes alot of work, it takes alot of time, it will basically consume your life for the next two years, minimum. I'm not exaggerating. I'm 9 months past D-Day after living through 9 mos of hell. Things look pretty good in my situation, but I will be honest with you, if this had happened to me before my W and I were married and had our daughter, if it had happened and I knew then what I know now, I would have RAN, with absolutely now hesitation. You can take that for what its worth.

If you want to try to recover this, I suggest you take a pretty aggressive tack. First, get into Plan A, become the partner you should have been all along. Stop ALL lovebusters, stop fighting with her, and begin to meet ALL her needs. That is the carrot of Plan A. You are going to need the stick too. You know enough to know that you are not mistaken in what is going on. In other words, you know the truth. Understand that. YOU KNOW THE TRUTH. Nothing your WGF says or does changes what is real. You don't need her approval or endorsement of the truth for it to be the truth, ok?

I would suggest that you see what you can dig up about OM. Is he married? Does HE have a GF? Dig as hard as you can. I would suggest that you confront your WGF and see what the response is. Sometimes (rarely) when caught, waywards crumble and the A stops then. This is unlikely, but the confrontation will give you some idea as to her mindset and how far into this she is. She is likely to gaslight and lie and spew venom about how you don't trust her and about how crazy jealous you are etc. Be ready for it.

Your next step will be exposure to her parents, and perhaps to thier work (I question the work exposure only because you are not married, technically, your WGF is not committing infidelity, as you are not married, so regardless of how you FEEL, she IS a free agent), but definitely her parents. Get ready for a huge explosion after this. She will threaten and tell you that she doesn't trust YOU (wait for it, she'll say this, try not to laugh in her face!) and how she was going to work on things but now she isn't, blah blah.

In your case, after this I might continue Plan A if it seems to be having a noticeable effect but I would suggest a fairly quick implementation of Plan B.

You really need to think about why you would want to consider marrying someone that would do this to you while you're dating. No matter how you FEEL about your situation, the reality is that you are NOT married, and we really can only go so far in treating this as if it were a marriage. She has shown you something that most of us would have loved to know before we married our spouses, you would be a fool to not strong consider this. In fact, I honestly think you should pack your [censored] and disappear from her life with no warning.

Sorry man, it sucks, but this quite possibly saved you much trouble in your life further down the road.

You need to do a full exposure. Her parents, work, her siblings.
Expose without warning.

Is the OM married, have a girl friend? Expose to her.

Next think about whether it maybe better to cut your loses before you get married and have children. No need to rush in making any decision on that. You may not be ready to do so for several months.

If you are leaning towards recovery do not move out or throw WW out. It only makess it easier for her to have unlimited access to the OM.

I would tell her she needs to go no contact with the OM now. She or the OM has to leave that job. She will have to be able to prove that there is NC. Give you access to her phone and computer.

Thanks for taking the time to write all of that Tyk.
I really appreciate what you have said.

I really do want to dig up on the info the OM as you say and I think that would be a whole lot easier if neither of them were aware that I know and are not on the defensive.
Wanting to do this kind of research is one reason I have not brought it into the open yet.

Notifying her parents is definitely a step I will take when the time comes as I know they like me.
Like you I'm not keen on contacting her work for the reason you have stated and it would be a bit malicious. Her friends at work that know me I would, as they could add some pressure.

If I am honest, one of the reasons I have been delaying marriage is the fear of this type of thing happening. Not just because of her, but it could be any girl. I look at the way the world is now and the stats and just figure it's going to happen to most people at some point. My parents divorced when I was 9 and I have been determined my kids don't suffer the same fate.

At the moment I'm glad I have not bowed under the pressure to get married so far, this would be so much more difficult if I was.
Some might say she only strayed because I did not commit. And I am sure she will use that excuse. But I say Bull**** to that. It would have still happened.

I once heard that if a partner leaves you for someone else but eventually comes back to you, they'll be yours forever.
I figure if I can fix it now and we can come back stronger then perhaps we'll be set for the future. I know this is sounding naive and the stuff of fairy tales!

The alternative is that I could leave and if I'm lucky find another good girl in a year, but then 5 years down the road she could be tempted too. And the circle begins again without getting anywhere. I'm quite cynical on the subject of marriage.

As you suggest, I'm going to have to think about what I really want right now. Do I really want to be with someone that would cheat? Don't think the thought of chucking it all in and being free again hasn't crossed my mind. It has, but not for long. Because of that I can only conclude that deep inside I really want to continue with our future.
I want kids eventually. The thought of looking for a new mother now is not filling me with joy.

Thanks for the advice.

It's good to finally talk this out as so far I have not mentioned it to anyone.

I'll definitely dig on the OM.

Fortunately she started looking for a new job a couple of months ago. That was prompted by her need to increase her salary so we can buy a decent house together.

How hard she is looking now that she has a sexual interest at work is something I will have to see.

Thanks.

Allow me to be a bit blunt - until you both have taken those vows where you promise to love, honor and cherish each other until death, then it's not really a M.



I'm trying to help you think about that future with your head as well as your heart. Your GF is currently cheating on you. You've confirmed this. Is this someone that you really want to tie yourself to for the rest of your life?



That was one of the main reasons why I remained with my GF after she disclosed that she cheated on me - I experienced a serious "deja-vu" moment when I read that! In hindsight, it was not a really good reason at all to accept what I was faced with at the time. I was letting my fear of not finding someone else governing my choices... to my detriment. And I'm betting that right now you're rationalizing the choice to try to recover what you have with her by telling yourself that you're not actually M'd yet, so it's ok, you can get over it, because it's definitely not something you'd accept if you were actually M'd, etc. Yup, I did that too.

BTW, at 33 with no kids and no joint property, it's a lot easier to start over than when you're 43 and there are kids, joint property and legal issues involved.



No - I'm suggesting that if you're looking for someone to spend the rest of your life with, she's probably not the best choice, as she's already indicated by her cheating that she does not see you the same way. But that's really your decision to make.

EXACTLY. Exposure, which can be as effective as an A-Bomb against affairs when M'd people are involved, is likely to have all the effects of a firecracker here. His attempts at exposure are likely to come across more as harassment than anything else, particularly if his WGF decides to spin it that way when confronted by the people he's told.

LOL

a topic on which I speak with authority ~~~> "virtual marriage"


ALSO a topic on which I speak with authority - a "virtual marriage with a virtual infidelity" --- yes - I remember it well



seriously - her character is in doubt as well !



Are you aware that pre-marital cheating is a BAD (horribly deficient, inferior, lousy, off, poor, punk, rotten, substandard, unacceptable, ungodly, unsatisfactory, wanting, wretched, wrong) sign when it comes to predicting future marital bliss and fidelity ???



WHY is "time" the essence here?

Actually, "honesty" is the essence. And by that I mean, you must become honest with yourself !!!!!!!!!!!



The advice you read here is for actual marriage - not virtual marriage.


Indeed ! That is what "living together" is all about. Pretending to be committed - but not really. There is a book available on the web site's bookstore "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders"


***** link
*****

This is HANDS DOWN the number one book for you in your situation - BUY IT !


You are both renters ... and now, your girlfriend has become a freeloader. Neither or you were ever "Buyers" - which is a different level than "living together".



Wrong question .... sorry my dear man.

Here's where I am coming from:

We are married 26 years . This is the FIRST marriage for BOTH of us.
We have been recovered for 12 years from my husband's affair.

Before I was MARRIED - I was in a "virtual marriage" for 14 years with a different man (yes, you read correctly).
He cheated on me - I "fixed" the virtual marriage problems by making myself more desirable by .... (fill in the blank) .... I became the human pretzle - twisting myself into what would make my virtual husband stay virtually married and virtually faithful. I tried to manipulate the truth and facts of my situation in order to massage the outcome - I wanted what did not exist. So, I made believe we were married in order to "fix" something that was not a marriage.

Guess what?
It did not work !
NOT for a lack of effort on my part - oh no - but for a lack being honest with myself.

I know you hurt. Your pain and desperation are palpable. However, you are fighting for something that is not what you are fighting for. And, you are grabbing at the tools Harley designed to work on saving a marriage - and the tools don't fit.

Would you fly with a pilot who had a "virtual license"? Would you accept surgery from a physician with a "virtual degree"?

And now, the end of my story:

A month ago, I found out that my "virtual husband" from so many years ago died in his sleep. I felt saddened for his family. I felt no other personal loss. He was never my husband. We were never married. The pain you feel will mend. It is not wrong to leave a woman who cheats on you BEFORE marriage. It is not advised to marry a woman who cheats on you BEFORE marriage.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE --- read BUYERS, RENTERS, and FREELOADERS

The following is taken from the book BUYERS, RENTERS, and FREELOADERS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.


_________________________


Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Harley says that the Buyer/Buyer agreement CAN BE restored in a marriage when the affair has finally ended.

BUT .... you ~knew~ there was gonna be a but didn't you?

this does not usually work if the unfaithful partner was NEVER a Buyer .... as in "virtually married"

Pep

"Notifying her parents is definitely a step I will take when the time comes as I know they like me."

Blood maybe thicker than water here.

"Like you I'm not keen on contacting her work for the reason you have stated and it would be a bit malicious. Her friends at work that know me I would, as they could add some pressure."

Exposure is what brings an end to the affair. How many more times are you going to let the OM bang your girl before you get the balls to do something?

Cheating is cheating. An affair is an affair. Whether you are married or in an exclusive relationship.

You need to call her parents now and expose then confront her as soon as she gets home.

Buyers verses Renters. I have never read the book and don't plan on it. Why?

Because of what I have seen and heard growing up.

I heard the phrase to many times to keep track: why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

Living together is not making any lifetime commitment. Most of the time couples that move from dating to living together break up. There was no commitment to marry for better or worse. Living together is just agreeing to go steady full time, 24/7/365.
Having a F buddy constantly on hand.

Not willing to make a commitment shows that you and your WG were more likely in lust instead of love.

When people are in the beginning of there relationship and are in love the most due to the newness of the relationship. A relationship without baggage. If one of them has an affair now at the height of their love for the partner. What is to keep them from another affair in the future when the newness has worn off and the relationship has developed some baggage.

You will not expose and confront . You choose sit back and be a doormat and to let your WG have her affair and run the risk of letting her affair run its course or leave you.

Your WG even if she stays after her affair has learned that she was able to get away with it once and probably will have more in the future.

It's one of Dr Harley's books. You know, Dr Harley, the guy who owns this site called Marriage Builders. If you don't want to read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders ..... try reading "The One" by Willard F. Harley Jr.

The One

A Field Guide to Relationships That Last



Many single adults will readily admit that they hope to be married someday. But how can you make sure that a marriage will last a lifetime?
According to Dr. Bill Harley, lasting romance isn't about finding the right person; it's about creating the right relationship. In The One, Dr. Harley will help you discover the truth of what makes a relationship work and what makes it fall flat. It's really all a matter of attitude. Relationship attitude, that is. There are three types of attitudes you'll find inside: freeloading free spirits, wait-and-see renters, and committed buyers. Healthy relationships should pass through al three stages, but it's easy to get stuck in a rut along the way.

Ready to move from attraction to a lasting love worth investing in? Find out how to make it happen in The One (2004, Paperback - 208 pages)






Pep

Books are sometimes like badges. Badges? What badges? I don't need no stinkin badges.

Without reading that book is what I have written essentally what is covered in the book?:


Because of what I have seen and heard growing up.

I heard the phrase to many times to keep track: why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

Living together is not making any lifetime commitment. Most of the time couples that move from dating to living together break up. There was no commitment to marry for better or worse. Living together is just agreeing to go steady full time, 24/7/365.
Having a F buddy constantly on hand.

DW,

I think you have been given great advice. I was younger than you when what happened to you happened to me. It is not fun and frankly very very painful.

I will say that you have 6 years invested in this relationship. You know what will be worse??? Investing another day, month, year into this relationship. Stop investing, expose, tell your GF what you know and see what happens.

Mine walked away. About 9 years later I married, and have been married for well over 30 years. My friend there are lots of fish in the sea, and many of them have integrity, honesty, and will make your life better than it is.

You have been holding off marrying her. I am betting you have not been very emotionally invested in her (other than as a friend). Now you feel the loss so you feel you are invested. Wrong answer my friend.

My recommendation, expose, expect her to walk, and then address YOUR fears about commitment and marriage. You will NEVER be a good husband if you are playing with one hand behind your back.

There is a saying where I live and it has to do with commitment rather than involvement. It is really the difference between your relationship and marriage.

It goes like this.
Stop look inside and decide which you want to be, and realize that neither of you have been committed, that would entail marriage (death do us part sort of thing). It really changes the dynamics of a relationship, if your mind is right,it changes for the better, if it is not, it is for the worse.

Frankly, if you have lived together for this amount of time and neither of you really were ready for marriage, it is unlikely you have found the right person and neither has she.

Oh! to end my story. The exfiance (we were to be committed) was murdered by one of her boyfriends (she seemed to like multiple "friends").

I hope your story ends better, but until you address YOUR issues, this relationship was unlikely to endure and certainly not be a good marriage.

Someone earlier said that getting marriage "because I have so much time invested", is about as bad a reason to get married as I can think of. Even "because she is pregnant" is superior to default decisions.

We are not picking on you, but as you can guess a few of us have some years behind us and some experience with these issues. Please think about what you have been told.

Things change,but they never change if nothing changes.

JL

(this is in response to TheRoad's last post, I didn't see yours until I posted JL)

I see the point, but disagree. It may be true that many "living together" arrangements end in breakups, but its also true that most marriages end in divorce. Also true that most marriages proceeded by living together end in divorce, but it is not the "living together" that causes the divorce, or the breakups, I don't think. It goes deeper than that.

So while the data I think is good, the conclusions drawn from it are not necessarily true, and certainly incomplete.

Find someone younger and hotter and move on with your life. As bad as it is it is 10 times worse when you are married with children.

She is cheating now so you are lucky. A lot of us find out after we have children and the XW wants the kids all of your money and your dignity. Then you have to be almost ruthless and it sucks to be honest.

My XW told me the most painful thing for her was when I divorced her and she saw me on a date with a younger woman (10 years younger than her). She said that was the hardest thing for her. I told her that at least I was not dating during our marriage.

She told me when I was no longer interested in her and started showing interest in other women it drove her crazy. If I would have been sitting there all sad asking her not to cheat she would have laughed in my face.

You are not married. I would throw her out and like I said start dating a hot women. Oh and better yet date a hot younger one who does not cheat.

I'd like to thank the lot of you.
You are all talking a lot of sense and hard truths.
Especially ManInMotion, PepperBand, The Road, Tyk...


Is being outed to your family & friends really getting away with it? Not to mention the changes we would both have to make if the relationship were to continue.


You may be right here. With my head in such a mess it is so hard to figure out just what I am feeling and why.


You're quite right again, I do have fears about marriage.
I've just been given a small insight of my main fear and what could have been, a painful break up and the expensive protection of my interests.
I'm a very independent person the main thing I have feared losing is all the hard work and money I have put into my flat should we have gotten married and then divorced. Especially as she has had no financial input at all. Pre-nups are not legally binding in the UK (except Scotland) so this has been a big weight on my mind. I KNOW I NEED TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE!


I may have given you a false impression here. She has been ready for marriage for years, she's hinted about it enough times but I didn't listen.
I figured, there was no hurry, what difference does a bit of paper make, why fix something that was not broken?
A year or so after we met I almost proposed on holiday, everything felt perfect but it also felt too soon.
I wanted to propose in December in New York whilst on holiday and even discussed it with a work colleague before hand. We were so rushed on that holiday that it didn't feel right at any time. I wanted it to be special and at least be a bit of a surprise when it happened.
That's why the more people mentioned it the less I wanted to do it, because it was expected, I'm stubborn and I don't bow down to pressure.

Lots of you have made a good point about the fear of starting all over again. I'm going to make a concious effort to put that out of my mind.


That's right, and she also communicated verbally just before D-Day that she was feeling unhappy about our relationship and that she needs some time to think.

I can't say I haven't thought in the past about what I would do if she cheated because I have. There has been a lot written in the media recently about the rise of infidelity, especially by women. We're more or less given the impression that everyone is at it so get ready.
I basically came to the conclusion even back then that as long as she realised she made a mistake I could forgive and rebuild stronger. I would put it down to her thinking the grass was greener but then realising it actually wasn't and learning the lesson. I honestly can't believe any relationship can go on for a long period of time and not have to tackle this kind of thing.
What does this say about me? A sucker? A realist?

Thanks again.

I don't think I can go younger. She's already 8 years younger than I am. I wonder sometimes if the age difference has been a factor in our relationship.
And she is quite hot, a while back some old friends were telling me not to let her go.
If she wasn't good looking I probably wouldn't be in this. And I know she's a tempting target for men in the future too.