Mrs. W,

You wrote, on Stanley’s thread: “OM was my ex high school/college boyfriend Aph...Pretty much cements for me what Dr. Harley says about NC being so important...That a low burning flame remains for an OP and it can be reignited at any time...My affair proved that...Dr. Harley is a very smart man...”

Moving my question for you here so as not to tj Stanley.

I am a strong proponent of NC. No questions there. And I agree Dr H is a very smart guy. But you remind me of one of my early unresolved issues in recovery. Perhaps you have some insight for me from your perspective.

If a FWW is mainly, if not only, a FWW because of NC, what does that say about the recovering M? How tenuous a thread is the M hanging by?

If you have latent feelings for OM that are going to last forever (attachment, in the expert’s lexicon) why stay married to your H? Why should he stay married to you? OM may well show up again unexpectedly, right? They seem to with distrssing frequency. Then it all starts all over again.

OK, so boundaries and ENs are in place. So what? Not much protection there, IMO. If a FWW will always be smoldering however way down deep for her OM, her H does not even rise to second choice.

Reminds me of that song, Smoke From a Distant Fire.

An eternal flame, however damped, for OM should be enough for any BH to file immediately.

What am I missing here?

With prayers,

I'm not Mrs W

I just thought you may want to see a

~~~> <~~~

friendly face

Pep

Thanx, a friendly face is always welcome. Especially yours, though I know you can be mighty scary when you want to be.

I remember you posted not long ago something like what I think, but I’m not sure, I can say about my FWW:

She loved him, beyond all telling, for ten years.

Then she loved him not.

Who knows what accidental contact would bring.

With prayers,

I understand exactly what Dr Harley means because I am a recovering alcoholic with 23 years of sobriety. Dr Harley began his career treating alcoholics, which is why he understands this dynamic about waywards; the mindset is identical to alcoholics.

The recovering [ed] WS and alcoholic do not SMOULDER inside for their drug of choice. [not after awhile, that is] Rather, it is the first drink that triggers those feelings. This is why an alcoholic can never remain sober unless he practices COMPLETE ABSTINENCE.

As he recovers and becomes healthy inside, he grows to LOATHE the horrendous memories of his drinking. Many liken it to living in "he11." But, those bad feelings can go away in a FLASH with just one drink. One drink is all it takes. All the intoxicating sick craving can come back with a FURY with one drink. In AA we have a saying: its not the 10th drink that kills us, but the FIRST ONE.

It is the same with adultery. That sick, all consuming craving - that seems LONG BURIED - can be triggered in a FLASH.

Dr. Harley gets the addiction aspect entirely.

Mel, I've not been here in a while, but I've got to say...that's a PERFECT metaphor for what (I think at least) goes on in a FWS/WS mind. That makes total sense to me.

The same "tenuous" thread that, pursuant to Dr. Harley, directs me to have strong boundaries and strictly limit contact that I may have with any woman that I've ever been in an intimate relationship with. The "rules" apply perhaps a bit stronger or more explicitly to a X-affair partner out of respect for the BS and because that OP has already broken through that marital boundary and MAY try again but they apply universally to both spouses and any ex-relationship, particularly sexual ones.

I am 100% confident that OM couldn't knock on our door and take my wife back. Guaranteed. I wouldn't be nervous or insecure if he tried to contact her. I'd find it sad and pathetic. I'd be upset with him but I have no doubt Mrs. W is in this marriage and isn't going back to him ever (it was merely a three month affair so we differ from you drastically in that regard). Even if I tragically died tomorrow, I don't believe for one second that OM could step back in. Their "friendship" since Middle School, I am confident, has been that deeply irreparablly tainted. However, the rules are there as a strict and respective rule to avoid that (or any) first step. If you recall, back in 2006 there was a fully MB educated and posting FWW on these boards that I gleaned felt 100% certain before and slipped up when confronted in person by OM. She felt sure she could handle meeting her OM for drinks to catch up and get closure or something. Melody Lane even had to step up and call her BH to let him know the truth about his life. It was after that that Mrs. W, although certain she has no interest whatsoever in OM, became fully mindful and committed to Dr. Harley's principles of no contact...regardless of how she confident she "feels". There is more safety in living by a principles whereas "feelings" can be fleeting or misdirecting.

Same goes for me. I may "feel" it's OK for me to exchange an email or two with an old girlfriend. Heck, I didn't cheat and I can handle it. Maybe I run into an old girlfriend, should I stop what I'm doing and spend an hour "catching up" or have a quick lunch with her? Should we exchange business cards? Pre-MB I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I KNEW I wasn't interested in more...so why not? I came close to straying myself prior to my wife's affair. I am not immune and neither is she.

Blind trust has been replaced in our marriage with an enlightened trust where we both realize we are both human and vulnerable. OM's as irrelevant to us as is any of our former relationships but why not adhere to strict NC. It's just a fast and easy rule and strict boundary to protect our marriage that I appreciate. I am proud of Mrs. W.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- It's not the FWW's that vehemently support and outwardly adhere to strict no contact requirements that are the problem but rather the ones that don't. Some may foolishly flat out deny it's necessity and others just sweep it under the rug and hope it just goes away but the "flicker" that Dr. Harley speaks of is an open love bank account that all of us develope with every person we interact with daily. OP's have one regardless of what one chooses to do about it. Regardless if affair "feelings" aren't based in reality...the "feelings" existed and the bank DID record deposits at that time. I'd rather be married to someone, like Mrs. W, that wisely acknowledges it and undertakes measures to close such love bank account forever than the later. Shutting it down is just prudent.

p.p.s. - I'm a million times better than OM anyway. OM was a LOSER.

p.p.p.s. - Another analogy about the flicker. Perhaps you can relate...maybe not. In my 20's I was promiscuous. Let's say I was at a party or a bar and a girl I had previously had sexual relations with walked in. She was far and away more approachable than any of the other women in the party/bar. There was already an "intimacy" there. Not a real intimacy as she likely wasn't someone I wanted to date or I'd be dating her but I knew, in my twisted immature adolescent like mind that she was safe to approach in a more aggressive manner even if I had no intent of "picking her up". I could and likely would be more flirtatious. My body positioning would be much more close. Everything would differ from approaching another woman whom I hadn't ever had relations with before. It's just common sense. BTW, it really wasn't until MB that I saw the wrongness in my premarital promiscuous behavior. It was unfulfilling. It was empty. It was time, money, energy that could have been put to much more benefit to me and those I truly cared about rather than "chasing tail". Lust knows no limits. Lust only wants more. No contact is a vital marital tool that protects BOTH of us from LUST, a universally common human weakness (be it OUR lust or ANY OP's, previous OM or not).

Aph,


Everyone has an account in the love bank....and accounts never close!!! BUT....the spousal account is a far bigger investment with lots more smouldering embers. Some of them, even have names.

Wow! Very well said.

Yes, star, I was never really second choice. For a few fleeting weeks it only seemed that way to my temporarily insane wife. Her temporary "feelings" don't forever knock me off my rightful pedastal beside her. MY perception never changed.

OM even dumped my wife and to some on these boards THAT was a difficult issue to resolve. Not for me. The affair ended. That was the short term goal of Plan A anyway. I didn't care how it ended only that it did so she could get back down to earth off the alien ship and into recovery.

After withdrawal, Mrs. W's been quite sane ever since

I was God's first choice for my wife and I don't question His wisdom.

I guess it's a another example of Act, Don't React. I ACT and BELIEVE I am my wife's first, best and only choice. I don't react to her grave aggregious short-lived temporary error and allow that to shape MY perceptions of US indefinitely. Perhaps, you are what you say you are. You become what you say you'll become. Life's chips will fall where they fall. I will go to my grave knowing I am irreplacable to her and her, to me.

Thank you.

Lust is also VERY patient. Hence, NO CONTACT, for life.

W

In a recent post to DoggyWoggy on JFO, I described the 14 year relationship I was in prior to marriage to Mr Pep. In that post I mentioned that I learned this old boyfriend died about a month ago.

How does this tie into this conversation?

I ended up having a few email exchanges with his sister. I expressed my condolences to her and her mother. In one of the emails the sister said this:

"In going through his things, I found a letter he wrote about his feeling for you (~2006). I don't know if he ever sent it to you or if you want it. It is past history and may do more damage than good. It is up to you. I will send it if you want me to."

I declined, this is my response:

"I'd rather you did not send this to me.
I long ago came to a place of acceptance of what happened.
More damage than good, I am certain"

I'm not stupid. I don't want ANY feeling about him - good or bad - to resurface.

I believe that it would hurt me just to satisfy curiosity - and sometimes that is how this sort of thing starts

simple curiosity which is innocent .... until it isn't

Pep

Mr.W, you have a calm and incisive way of stating that which I often struggle to say.

"I ACT and BELIEVE I am my wife's first, best and only choice."

"I will go to my grave knowing I am irreplacable to her and her, to me."

Perfect...

TTH

Ps - You think it's going to game 7?

Mel > “I understand exactly what Dr Harley means because I am a recovering alcoholic with 23 years of sobriety.”

You and one of my brothers have the same coin. I always attend his bd meeting with him.


Mr. W > “p.p.p.s. - Another analogy about the flicker. Perhaps you can relate...maybe not.”

I probably can’t. I have only had sexual intercourse with my wife. And we waited until our wedding night.


Star> “BUT....the spousal account is a far bigger investment with lots more smoldering embers. Some of them even have names.”

And even embers with names don’t appear to be able to stop WWs.


Mr. W > “OM even dumped my wife and to some on these boards THAT was a difficult issue to resolve. Not for me.”

Nor for me. Same thing here. After a confrontation with him, that is. Over is over. It’s cleaning up the smoking wreckage that is difficult.


I am getting a sense that I will never understand these smoldering embers named OP (even within the limits of analogy) because I have no such previous embers. I will need to commit adultery first, I guess.

With prayers,

Did you not have any previous relationships at all?? Ones that involved kissing, groping, everything "but"???

For example, was there a girl in maybe middle school that you dated (you were "going" together) and then, much later in high school or college you saw that girl again and had a sorta bond with her that enabled you to comfortably approach her again??? Can you see that that 1st step is/was so much easier to take???

It's not really a sexual intercourse "ember" that needs to be there...though it certainly makes us more vulnerable if it's unfortunately the case.

Mr. W

Game 7...I hope so.

Though I think the Celtics are the blessed ones this year chosen by the commissioners office to win and it appears the officiating is following suit.

The NBA prefers selling it's STARS over a superior TEAM.

I don't have a lot of faith in the NBA, but I remain hopeful for the Pistons. They could overcome it, yet.

What really frustrates me is having both the Red Wings and the Pistons playing at the exact same times. We are so fortunate to have both still playing and the networks screw it up. Picture and Picture helps but I haven't hooked up TIVO so I have been concentrating more on my Red Wings than the Pistons. IF they win, I can watch them play in the finals AFTER watching our boys in red hoist the Stanley Cup.

Go Wings.

Mr. W

Hi Aphelion...Sorry I'm so late in replying to you, it's been a busy day for me! Mr. W just told me about this thread...

If there is anything that I can answer for you that Mr. W hasn't already, then let me know...I feel he's done a WONDERFUL job, along with Mel and Pep...I'm not sure that I could add more that would be helpful...I share the views already put forth here...

I can tell you that I do not pine for OM...Not at all...But I've seen the results of contact around here and I want NOTHING to do with that...I don't need to test the theory...I trust Dr. Harley's professional findings...My marriage and family are the MOST important things in this world to me...I adore Mr. W.

Last year, another former boyfriend of mine emailed me...He did so through our business, so I actually never even saw the email as Mr. W checks that account. Mr. W called me to ask me what I wanted to do with that email. I said "delete it with no reply"...We have not heard from him again thankfully...Before I would have thought not responding would be RUDE, now I don't care...I learned my lesson the hard way...I will not be foolish again...My marriage and family will forever come first...

Best,

Mrs. W

Appy, Maybe I can give you my unwelcome take on this.

I think MelodyLane said it best when she compared a FWS as an alcoholicwho if they had just ONE drink would be back in it again. They hate the booze NOW but that one drink puts them back.

When I was reading through HNHN, before I even got to the chapter on affairs right at the end I found myself asking WHAT happens to a WS who ends the affair - because there was no way for the love bank balance for the other person to disapate. Dr Harley himself then confirmed what I already knew in the chapter on affairs.

NO FWs of BS likes hearing this.

I think IF the affair has died a natural death then there is almost complete exhaustion of the love bank balance but for an affair that is ended by the actions of the BS there is of course still a love bank balance that is positive for that person. No matter how much a FWS or a BS will want to deny this, it just is.

Look at the example of men who resume their affairs after many years of recovery that just "miss" the OP

Look at KiwiJ who with 1 chance meeting and 2 dates was all but sucked back into the affair because she believed she was immune.

There is safety and boundaries in a BS and a FWS acknowledging what is.

My wife really hates the OM now because of a lot of things he did in the past 3 years that affected our kids profoundly as well as us. BUT I KNOW that if our marriage was in a low point and she didn't protect her boundaries and she had contact with him that the renewal of the affair would be possible.

Sucks.

For a LTA I suspect this is even more likely.

UGH - I didn't see all the replies before I posted. LOL.

I completely agree with all the posters here. Awesome.

Appy - I come from exactly the same wedding night history as you so I can relate.

The OM in our case 3 years post affair contacted my wife a few weeks ago. Her response was to immediately tell me and we dealt with him as a team.

NC, the love we have built in our marriage over the last 3 years and her boundaries are what made this happen. Like MrW, I don't anticipate OM will ever be able to take away my wife again - no man in fact. He is a sad pathetic loser.

I agree also, but have something to add.

It isn't the OP themselves that is the allure. The way I see it, it has little or nothing to do with the OP and everything to do about the WS, FWS or just human beings themselves because it is not the wonderful magnetic personality of the OP that is the problem. It's simple human weakness.

And it matters not one iota whether the escape is an OP, a controlled substance, alcohol, gambling, a career...

Any of these and more are things that can and will come between spouses if they are allowed to and the only way I know of to disallow them is to put protective measures in place to prevent it.

In short, it isn't about any sort of flattery regarding the OP.

But that's just my opinion.

Aph ( etc !)

Big K has recently helped me "get" this concept. As he says no BS wants to believe it but we cannot expect our FWS to feel the same about OP as we do. Some do, but IME most don't.

Our FWS shared a deal of intimacy with the OP and at the time almost all FWS enjoyed that. They feel satisfied by that intimacy on a very deep level.

We BS don't ever have such positive associations with OP, even if they were in a corrupt setting as with our FWS. So we dont get to easily comprehend the involuntary lingering risk of OP to our FWS.

BTW Squid was my first and only too. There are a few of us here it seems, sadly.