I've been reading Seabird's thread and didn't want to highjack it.

I'm going through something similar with our daughter (11), her dad and the OW.

The EX moved in with the OW 3 years ago. (The OW was a good friend of MINE and her kids were always at our home playing with our kids. Needless to say she is no longer a friend.) Our daughter has never felt comfortable with this situation.

Last September the EX moved out of the OW house and got his own apartment because the OW had her ex-boyfriend move in after he got busted dealing drugs and had "no place else to go". The EX and OW quit dating and our daughter was in hog heaven!! She finally had her daddy back. Her "fun" dad according to her.

2 months ago the OW had the boyfriend move out and a week later my EX announced to our daughter that he and the OW were engaged. This CRUSHED our daughter!!!!! She tells him everytime she talks to him (daily) how much she "hates" the OW and doesn't want this marriage to happen. (wedding date is July 19, 2008) This is his 3rd marriage and the OW's 2nd. OW has two boys 15 and 12 who also aren't thrilled about the situation but are willing to deal with it according to my EX.

I've tried to talk to him on her behalf and his only response is that he won't be told by an 11 year old how to live his life. I've tried asking him to just hold a few years and let our daughter mature a little and see what happens then. He says that it wouldn't matter if it happens now or later nor does it matter if it's someone else or the OW. He also thinks it's just me trying to sabotage his happiness of course. I could care less at this point. They deserve each other for what they have done. I have never said that to our daughter though. I've been encouraging her to embrace the situation as best as she can.

I'm at my wits end for our daughter's sake. I've been there done that in my own childhood and it truly does suck!! For a lack of a better word.

They asked our daughter to be in their wedding and she of course declined. At first she said she would sit with her grandparents at the wedding but now she is saying she isn't going at all.

The EX's visitation with our daughter is every other weekend and one full week in the summer. Since the announcement of the engagement our daughter hasn't spent an entire weekend with the EX. She usually calls and tells me that her dad is bringing her home. The wedding is the weekend he has her for the week so I can almost predict she will be coming home then also.

Any suggestions from you dad's? Any advice I can give our daughter on how to deal with this?

Ronda

Well, this will be somewhat "anti-dad" of me, but I am willing to do this in the name of being "pro-kid".

Given the situation you describe, I would seriously review your options for having your daughter stay with you full time, and not have to live with her dad and the OW. Usually kids' views aren't fully taken into account till they are about 13 (which is not that far away), but I believe that after that, if the child has strong feelings about not staying with one parent, then the courts would consider that.

I guess for the nearterm, perhaps you can help her express her frustrations/feelings in a clear way (i.e. not just "I hate it there" but "I hate it when dad and OW do X or Y"), so that maybe they can make some accommodations. Who knows, maybe she'll get used to the arrangements. But if not, I think there is a real possibility to change the custody in a couple of years.

AGG

Ronda, a little OT, but I want to recommend an awesome newsletter to you. It's called Daughters (www.daughters.com), and it is all about girls aged 10-20, the issues they have, solid advice, an advice column, a father's perspective column...just all kinds of wonderful stuff in there. I've learned so much from it. I often sit down (still) with D17 and read it together, as it allows us to talk about subjects she might not normally bring up, and gives me a chance to give her my opinions on things, so she can soak it all up. Their website is pretty cool, too. It even has a forum, so you can ask there about the OW situation.

AGG,

Trust me...She has expressed everything in detail to him...and it still falls on deaf ears. The Ex's only response is that "he won't be told how to live by an 11 year old" and that "she (our daughter) will adjust".

I, being through this myself from age 12 on, have had 2 stepmothers. The first one raised me from age 12 - 18 and I still to this day respect her and consider her a mother-figure. I know that hurts my mom but it can't help the way I feel. My mother at the time couldn't handle being a single mother and chose to keep my sister (5 years older than me) with her and sent me to live with my dad and then stepmother (I also have two older brothers who were already out of the house by then).

Sidenote: My father cheated on my mother with my first stepmother and then cheated on my first stepmother with my second stepmother. I didn't learn of the first cheating until I was in my mid 30's. I knew of the second cheating because I was older (18) and he would take her to family outings. It's with this second stepmother that I can relate to how my daughter is now feeling. I really felt I lost MY daddy when this woman came along. And I still feel it all these years later and I'm 41 now. I have no feelings for her at all. My dad and I aren't nearly as close as we were and now that he's in his 70's it kills me all the more. I know I won't have my Daddy forever and I long to make more memories with him. We 4 kids "tolerate" her for our fathers sake.

Okay back to the EX. He is extremely insecure and can't stand to "be alone". I begged him to put the wedding off for a few years and just date the OW until our daughter matures a little more. He only sees our daughter 4 days a month for visitation...the other 26 days he can do what he wants with the OW. He sees that as me trying to control him and won't see that I'm trying to get him to take our daughter's feelings into account.

I really don't know what more I can do for her other than revoking his visitation and I don't want to do that. My son (17) from my first marriage does not see his dad at all unless I take him to visit. Which I usually try to do on Father's Day. His dad lives 45 minutes from us. His grandmother before her death would make his dad come visit us but since her passing he won't make the effort at all. No calls, No cards, No emails, No visits. It's taken a toll on him some but thankfully my dad, brothers, and brother-in-law have stepped up and taken every effort to be upstanding male figures for him. They take him hunting and attend his football games and are truly there for him no matter what.

Anyways...Thank you for your insite AGG...I appreciate your advice!

Ronda

Cat,

Thank you...someone had given me that site before (was it you?) and I need to visit it again.

Ronda

My heart aches for children in situations like this. The only thing you can do is soften the blow and help your daughter to understand some hard life lessons.

Her father has chosen OW to become his next wife. That's not something either of you have control over. Her father is who he is and so is the OW and that's who you have to deal with, not who they once were or who you might wish them to be, but who they are at the moment. People we love will make choices in their lives we don't agree with or don't like but if we want to be a part of their lives we need to do the adjusting. This is where your daughter has some choice. She can limit her contact. If she is completely opposed to seeing her father you may have to go to court if your ex won't be understanding about your daughter's discomfort. Hopefully that's not the case.

My youngest son still wavers about spending time with his father. He will often stay with me when the other two boys are at their dad's (he lives at the gf's house). Fortunately ex and I are both accommodating when it comes to the kids. This doesn't mean I don't have issues with ex about his living situation (45 minutes away) or the choices he makes. Currently the gf doesn't want the boys to visit because she fears getting sick (long story, she had a serious illness and has some hypochondriac tendencies now). Ex also has a serious illness (this I find fascinating considering the choices they have made in the past) and I have had to be especially accommodating considering he is seeing the boys much less, how much due to his illness and how much to her fears I don't know. My point being chit continues to pop up and will forever, after all you have children together. Sucks really, but I find the best approach is often the one where we work with what we've got and try to keep the conflict to a minimum. The conflict itself is often the worst part for the kids.

Thanks Nams!!

Our daughter is getting ready as I am typing this for her visitation with the EX. This is the first weekend since he has moved back in with the OW. I have to work but won't be surprised when I get the phone call from our daughter wanting to come home to sleep. She knows I'm 100% available to her no matter what.

Ronda

What are your daughters complaints about his GF? Is it she is just mad at your ex because of what happened with you guys, or what?

My exh moved in with his gf, and my kids did not like it... it was because he was always watching her kids when he had our kids, and our kids wanted just some 'daddy time'. I tried to tell him this, and it went on deaf ears until my older D tearfully told him this. Since then, he spends a lot of alone time with them.
And, I have to admit, even though I did not want to, his gf treats my girls well, and she does not get too involved with them, yet she always makes sure that there is good food to eat (something he is terrible at), they have fun outings, and a lot of other things. So, it could be worse.

If it is that she cannot stand this woman for wrecking your M, maybe you could limit his visitation?

She doesn't like sharing him with the OW and her boys. She would rather her time with her dad be JUST her and her dad. He goes out of his way to taxi the OW boys to school and activities but won't take our daughter to school because he thinks it would benefit me in some way which it makes no difference to me. (My best friend takes my kids to school because she passes right by my house to take her son to school.)

Also the "bedroom" for our daughter at the OW house is a walk in closet which doesn't make her happy AT ALL! She doesn't feel like she belongs. The OW's youngest boy fights with our daughter and no one does anything about it.

I could go on but I think you get the jist.

Thanks for responding Sadmo

Ronda

Probably the most difficult thing your daughter has to deal with in the whole situation is the fact that it appears her father is choosing his new family over her. That's not something any child should have to experience.

It's so hard to stay neutral and not refer to your ex as the selfish person he appears to be. The thing is, kids get that. They don't have the emotional reserves to understand it so they tend to hate and internalize and make personal the choices of their parent with the new life.

My approach with my youngest was and will be to ask specifically what behaviors of his father he objects to and we talk about it. I try to help him see that the choice was his father's, not his not mine, and we can only live with those choices. Try to stress that his father has limitations, we all do, and those along with other issues we may not know about (or do if they are due to FOO) are what's driving him to make the choices he does. I also encourage my son to speak with his dad about what bothers him. This is really hard for him and most kids but he has done it. I've warned him that the behavior or choice his father made may not change just because you pointed out you don't like it, but at least you've spoken about it and it will make you feel better knowing you had the courage to speak up.

It's so painful to watch our children struggle with the issues of divorce. All I can really do is be there for them and ensure them I love them, help them to see themselves as separate from their father and his choices, and hope the scars aren't too damaging.

Well our daughter had another blow out with the EX tonight. Apparently our daughter posted her frustrations on myspace and the OW's youngest son showed the EX. Again the EX told her he wouldn't be told what to do by an 11 year old and that she needed to change what she said on myspace.

He also told her it's court ordered for her visitations and I called him and told him it may be court ordered but the days of shoving her into the car and forcing her to go are long gone. I think I'm going to call my attorney and see what it's going to take to have our daughter talk to the judge. I hate seeing her this upset!!

Ronda

I'm sorry to hear the situation is coming to this, but there is a bright side. Your daughter is standing up for herself, even though she took the indirect route on myspace, it's a step in expressing her wants and needs. Your ex seems to love the phrase about not allowing an 11 y.o. dictate his actions. That's fine, now he can live with the consequences of that attitude.

If going to the attorney can help your daughter then good. It always amazes me how the person who wanted out of the marriage and has created a new life expects those around them to be thrilled about the outcome. They get pissed when there is some rain on their sunny situation, even if it's a direct result of their choices. The chit comes to them too and stresses present themselves just as they did in the old marriage, it's inevitable. My ex made a comment to me the other day that if gf doesn't stop with her hypochondriac ways, not wanting the boys to visit, he's going to take the R.V. and move to a camp ground. Ah...life in paradise, not all it's cracked up to be.

AllurinGreenEyes

A couple of things from a different perspective, your ex-husband is right, he shouldn't let your daughters emotions/feelings dictate, how he as both her father and an adult lives his life, nor should you as her mom, allow your life to be dictated by how she feels.

My husbands ex-wife is that way, she allows herself to be dictated by her kids feelings and what they want, and for the most part, they run her house..not her. By giving in to them as much as she has over the years, they battle over who is in charge. One man she dated stopped seeing her because of that..she didn't control the kids, they controlled her.

they'd call from dad's crying because he isn't giving into their tantrums, she'd run to pick them up, and cusses dad out in the process, because he isn't allowing himself to be controlled by their tantrums, and is setting boundaries which makes them cry.

They throw a temper tantrum at home because they want something, she gives in..the daughter threatens to kill herself, mom gives in..mom doesn't give in daughter cuts her arm or takes pills, then tells mom, making mom feel guilty for not giving in.

My step-daughter doesn't like coming over here anymore, because she can't manipulate her dad or I the way she can her mom..my husband wouldn't build her, her own room here like her mother wanted him to do so that SD could come live with us (if she doesn't get her own room, she can't come live w/ us..as if her mom can dictate what goes on in OUR home, I don't think so, this is my home, not hers). (would you want another woman or even your ex-husband trying to dictate what goes on in your home??)

They don't have there own room here (neither do my kids), she doesn't get daddy all to herself, my kids don't get me all to themselves either (even when my step-kids aren't here) they have to share my attention with each other and with my husband..

Here she has to share the attention, she doesn't like it, but then she doesn't like sharing her mom's attention either, not with her younger sibling and not with some man her mom wants to date..

and the more you run to get your daughter when she calls you crying because she's not the center of attention at daddy's house, or because she doesn't like her room, or doesn't like the OWs children, it's going to get bad..because when you start dating, she's not going to like sharing YOUR attention with another man either.

She really does need to learn to share her dad's attention, just as she needs to learn to share yours..what happens when you start dating and eventually remarry and have another child or even a step-child, do you think she's going to be happy? Do you think she's going to like sharing you with another child? No, she won't

There has to come a time when your not jumping to go get her, and let her learn she's not always going to get her way or get what she wants..and more importantly that she isn't the parent, dictating what goes on in the house..and that crying isn't going to get her what she wants.

think about this, would you want your ex-husband giving into her tears if you were still married to him? Or would you want him to stand firm in his decision if he told her no to something?

AllurinGreenEyes


Hmmm, I guess I'm different, I don't see why an 11 yr old needs a myspace, but that's just me..I thought they had to be 14 or something to get one anyway..

but it's good they are looking over what she's writing, nothing wrong with that. Did you read what she wrote? And what he asked her to change?

I've told my own daughters both to change things and to remove things from their myspace pages..and I let them know, if they wanted to vent about various people, then they could write it in their personal blog that nobody else can read, that way they get to vent, and nobody gets hurt in the process.

but again, it's good they are checking, I do the same with all of my kids, including my step-daughter, even though she doesn't live with us..and yes, I even show my husband (her dad) what she's posting and my kids show him things as well, if it's something they think he should see.

I think it's hard for most daughters to have to share their Daddy in particular.

Our daughter doesn't have the same sharing problem when it comes to me dating.

And as far as myspace, I have the passwords for both of my kids and check them on a daily basis. My daughter and her friends are still at an "innocent" age where they're just exchanging "hi's" and daily going ons.

My son on the other hand has had lots of things and people deleted by me on his myspace and he doesn't fight me on it. He knows I mean business and won't tolerate it.

Depending on their ages I find it odd that his/your kids don't have rooms at your house? Are they over 18 and on their own?

Should I ever get in another committed relationship I would certainly hope that the man I'm with would want to have SOME alone time (an afternoon or so) with HIS kids so they don't feel like they always have to share their dad when it's their precious visitation time. Likewise with me and my kids. Kids are only young once and life is too short to not embrace every little moment with our kids.

I won't tolerate the EX and OW dictating how our daughter can "feel" and "not feel" about the situation. Everyone is entitled to their "feelings and thoughts" even though we may not always agree with them. I also think that the moment we conceive children our lives become dictated by our children. At minimum until they are of legal age and step out on their own in this big, sometimes unkind world. It's my job to make their childhood as memorable as mine and hopefully better than mine.

Thank you for your viewpoint from the stepmothers prospective.

Ronda

These are our children, this is the predicament WE put them in...it doesn't matter who left who for whatever reason, and its up to us to mend their hurting hearts from our mistakes ( we as the parents) not step parents, they can be a good role model, good listener and show them alot of love and respect or they don't have to do any of that...We are step parents..my husband and I both came into our marriage, he had 2 and I had 3...My plan of action with his children was nothing except to be there for them , answere any questions truthfully, and i respected them and showed them love like i did my own....of course they got on my nerves some times, it is hard...but its not my place to dicipline them nor did i want it to be. ( only once did i have to yell at his oldest because he was beating on his younger brother and my rule of the house is no physical fighting) and that never happened again. My husband chose a different route...he chose to demand their respect because he is the adult and they are the children, needless to say they hated him and he disliked them, was hell for me too..It took him about 3 years to figure out that all he had to do was just be their friend and to stop trying to do my job. I sure don't want my children growing up feeling that they don't mean everything to me because they do. These step parents that want to rule the roost and put demands on the step children and their parent obviously have personal issues of their own because face it, they know what they are getting into when they married. They get pissed at their partners Ex and most of the time take it out on the step kids. Everyone should just remember that we chose this not them, they don't have to like us or love us, they were put in this with no choice....this is not directed at anyone in particular here...just my experience and feelings on the subject

TR, I probably shouldn't say anything because I'm not here often enough that I'm sure I'll be back here to respond, but I thank you for sharing what you wrote. I'm going through a rough patch with my girls right now because DD12's hitting that hormonal time, and things we did that didn't used to bother her now do in a big way. And when I listen to her concerns, I find there is a lot of truth that I needed to hear in what she says. Like we're growing together.

I am work really hard to implement MB with everyone in the family, valuing everyone's input. Even when it's not something that I have the power to do for them, I think it makes a big difference that they can come to me and feel heard and know that I think it makes sense that they would want what they do even when I cannot provide what they want. I would imagine that would feel really dismissive to be a kid whose parents saw the visitation home as "theirs" instead of "ours". The way your post sounded to me like how I think when I read it really makes me think about where I am still faliing short in this.

AllurinGreenEyes


I think they are used to being the center of attention.


It may change when your looking to get married and bringing another man into your life on an everyday basis, or do your kids come first in your life?

My kids don't come first and even though they get upset at times because of it, they get over it, they understand that one day, they will be leaving home and it will only be my husband and I living here, while they are out starting their own life, getting married and having their own kids..and will have their own home's, and they understand if we don't continue to build our relationship now, we won't have one when they leave home..



Why is that odd? They don't live at our home, they live with their mother, they have a bed here, and a dresser to keep their clothes when they are here..they just don't have their OWN individual bedroom when they are here, like they do when they are at their mom's..big difference.


Again, I didn't say he didn't spend ANY alone time with them, he just doesn't spend the entire weekend alone with them, like his daughter wants..just as you have said your daughter wants, she doesn't want to share her dad...same thing.

Life is just as short not to embrace every moment you can as a family...not just spending alone time with your kids.


How was he dictating how she felt? He told her to take it off her myspace, not to stop feeling that way, again A BIG difference.

And I disagree, I don't think our children should dictate our lives, sure we should work our lives around them to a degree, but they shouldn't dictate our lives. If your life revolves around your kids now, what are you going to do when they eventually leave home? Or are they going to feel guilty for leaving mom behind?

When my ex-husband and I first divorced, my kids felt guilty while they went to spend time with their dad, knowing they were going to be have fun and be with each other, and I was going to be home alone..I kept telling them they didn't need to feel guilty leaving me home alone, I had lots of things I could do, friends I could invite over or go see and that they should go have fun with their dad and could tell me all about it when they got back..they eventually got to the point they didn't worry about me being home alone..and began enjoying the time they had with their dad..then he moved to a small town in another state, and they don't know anyone..so they don't like going up there..but even then, I let them know, he's their dad and they need to spend time with him, and if that means they go up there to spend time with him, then that's what they do..

My kids are teens now, and it's been that way about eight years, they don't throw a fit or call me crying wanting to come home, just because they don't like being there..and even when they were younger and they'd call me crying, I'd ask what's wrong, and they'd tell me they were scared, or they missed me, I'd tell them if they are scared, go snuggle next to their dad..or I miss them too, but I'd see them the next day or whatever day it would be when they would get home, but I didn't run over to get them, just because they didn't like being there..

I looked at what that would teach them long term if they didn't like something..would they quit their job and move home just because they didn't like working? How long was I going to continue to bail them out when they didn't like something? was I going to go pick them up from school when they called crying, just because they didn't like their new teacher?

my husband's ex-wife has been known to do that, leave work and go get the kids when they call from school crying because they are having a bad day. Her mom even called me one day asking if I could go get her from school because she couldn't leave work. I called the school, she wasn't sick, she just didn't want to be at school..I refused to go get her..just as I would refuse to go get my own kids if they called wanting to come home because they didn't want to be there..

My kids hate doing chores, but that doesn't mean they don't do their chores anyway..they hate doing homework, doesn't mean they don't do it anyway..there are lots of things my kids HATE doing, but just because they hate it, doesn't mean they don't have to accept they have to do it..it's a part of life. Does making my kids do their chores or homework mean I don't take their feelings into account?? Nope, I take them into account and make them do it anyway..why? Because, they have to learn that their feelings, though they are important, they don't get control over the situation or a person.

So while your husband may understand your daughter hates the fact he's getting remarried, and wants to spend all her time just the two of them, or whatever, her feelings aren't going to be the determining factor, why? Because he's not going to be controlled by her feelings..just as my husband isn't going to be controlled by his daughters feelings, or my feelings or anyone else's feelings, he will take them into consideration when he makes a decision, but he's not going to let them be the only reason he does or doesn't do something..

TR, if I'm undersatnding correctly, her Dad is marrying the woman he left her mom for. Outside of the girl's feelings, do you think this is in the daughter's best interests?

Do you think any person, especially a child, could have any respect for someone who is making such a mockery of marriage? Expecting her to go visit such a house as if that's a safe place for her? Have this person as a step-parent?

Even as a kid I used to see my stepmother as a home-wrecking slut. She used to judge us about how our behavior didn't measure up, and on the inside I thought this woman must be insane that she would think that her judgement of me would make ME feel bad about MYSELF. Yeah, because I'd like to be more like someone SHE would accept, right? NOT!

Yes absolutely my kids are my priority at least for the next 6-7 years and no man is going to change that nor would I ever let a man put me in front of his children while they are minors.

Life goes on after they are of legal age and they go out on their own.

Her father has told her many times that what she is feeling and thinking is wrong and she needs to change her point of view.

My kids have the security of knowing that I am here for them no matter what. Yes there is consequences for when they do wrong but If it's within my means to be there for them...you betcha I'm gonna do it!

Thank you for your point of view but we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Ronda

Hmmm, every piece of information I read on father/daugher relationships says that it is extremely important for the daughter to feel like she has occasional "alone" bonding time with her dad. I think that if a young girl is told that she always has to share dad, she will simply withdraw, but with negative consequences for her future relationships with men.

I don't know if any of you saw the Supernanny episode yesterday with the two parents leaving their teenage daughters to care for their three younger brothers, but it was heartbreaking, and the first thing that Supernanny told them was that the dad needs to have some undivided time with his daughters.

AGG