There was a time in my life that I followed those rules too SC.

But after years of neglect, of my H and I living separate lives, of me begging for his participation -- I GAVE UP.

I was convinced that my H was only married to me out of convenience. That he didn't give my feelings, needs, or wants a second thought.

It was at the point that I was GLAD when he left for his "guy" weekends. It was easier for me and the kids to just have him gone. (In contrast, most of his buddies had to beg and earn their way out for the weekend!)

So no, when somebody started paying attention to me, it didn't occur to me to tell my husband about it. I didn't WANT that to stop and of course my husband finding out about it would make it stop. And I didn't think it was wrong, because at that point it was extremely innocent. It wasn't even flirting, just talking.

So, why is it impossible to understand how these things start?

Hey Pep,

Do you think this is a NOTABLE post?

Well i guess i find it hard to understand because i do not believe in having "girls" or "guys" nights out for one thing and neither of us have ever done this. Once you are married you are a team.

And i felt i was a good wife and we had (up until the A) ALWAYS talked to one another about everything. We are one anothers best friend. So "why" did this change all of the sudden. I do not understand why he felt the need to talk to someone else when he had never had a problem talking to me before.

And like Tyk stated he started with that first lie and then it seemed easier and easier to tell more and more lies when for the first 24 years he had NEVER lied to me (that i know of).

So i DO NOT understand and probably never will which is too bad for me because i think it has held up my recovery.

Doesn't change how i feel though.

I also assumed that my H had the same personal boundaries that i had because we had discussed it many times (i obviously assumed wrong). And his parents split up when he was younger due to infidelity and he always said he would never let that happen, that if he wanted to be with someone else he would leave BEFORE he took those first steps and i said the same thing.

THIS is where I think the disconnect is, SC. Maybe this is not a TRUE statment. Maybe your FWH didn't talk to YOU about everything, even before the A; you are assuming he did. This may have left him an avenue to have his EN met for conversation/general attention/admiration elsewhere. His affair didn't just fall in his lap, it didn't just HAPPEN, it developed over time.

This is how a lot of work-related A's start. Two people start talking, sometimes just joking, then they FEEL a spark, then they talk some more, conversation gets more intimate, then they start to realize they are feeling something POSSIBLY inappropriate, since they're married and all, then they are addicted and it's too late. Consider they spend 8-10 hours, on average, around each other, every day. It's EASY to fuel a fantasy with that amount of time.

Some people CHOOSE to never be unfaithful, and it sounds like you are one. SOME (very few). I wouldn't assume, however, that you might now change your mind and choose differently. NEVER SAY NEVER is a steadfast motto of mine these days.

IMO, I think recovery IS contingent on the BS believing that everybody makes mistakes, even horrendous, earth shattering ones, that can nearly destroy all in it's path, and be able to forgive said mistake and move forward. That is IF the WS is doing all they can to help make the marriage work, pulling their weight and attempting to make amends.

Well for my H anyway, his work is pretty much independent he is out in the field all day and very rarely is there another co-worker with him so he does not spend 8-10 hours per day with them.

He actually would not have even seen the OW except one day a week for about 15 minutes BUT she took a liking to my H and went to his job site on a daily basis to get her "fix" of him and gave him her "damsel in distress" ploy and he fell for it hook line and sinker.

And as of yet i have not changed my mind about my personal boundaries. I do not have male friends and do not talk to males about anything personal.

I am not saying that it could not happen but i try very hard to make sure that I am not in a situation for it TO happen and truly think that i ALWAYS will (could be wrong, not the first time and not the last time either).

You naturally always practiced EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS, which is fantastic. Sadly, your FWH did not. I believe recovery does hinge on being able to forgive your spouse. In my case, I was willing to do that, and was trying, however, it is extremely difficult to forgive someone for the offense of abandonment and infidelity, when they are actively still doing one or the other or both. Meh, such is life.

This has been a very enlightening thread.

The afternoon I exposed to Gollum’s BW she made a very interesting comment and question.

We recalled a dinner that both couples went to three years earlier and fully two years before the EA started. She asked me, “Did you feel a spark or something inappropriate between them that night?”

The truthful answer from me was that I had not. But obviously she did. Now her infidelity sensory array system was far more developed than mine at that time as she had already been betrayed twice by Gollum. But it has always left me wondering when did the premeditated thoughts of this adultery begin?

I think the “15 Steps of Infidelity” define Wayzilla and Gollums adultery very accurately, but the seeds of inappropriate premeditation had been planted far, far earlier.

I, for one, did NOT have really strong boundaries in place for things like flirting and the like prior to PWC's affairs. When I look back at some of my behavior, it certainly could have led me down the path that he took, it really was just a matter of CHOICE. I chose fidelity. I'm sure sparks have flown between me and other men before, but I took them as fun, flighty, flattering things, NEVER as something to hang my hat on, so to speak.

Fast forward to NOW. I do not conduct myself in the same manner. I'm still very outgoing, but I conduct myself differntly around men. I don't have lunch alone with them or touch them, and I don't bat my eyes and various other ritual mating type behaviors. I can still feel needs being met by conversation with my work mates, men and women alike. I have that need met here too, to some extent. There is a line there, and I know not to cross it.

Being single is going to be strange for me.

We choose our path, it doesn't choose us.

Maybe I am the only when who thinks this way, but I don't think you have to agree with it to understand it. When I read your posts, it seems like you think folks are saying you need to agree.

I sometimes think that is a polarizing issue on this board. Whenever a FWS trys to explain the "why", seems like every BS's takes that as the FWS's arguing the "correctness" of it or advocating the behavior. I don't think they are doing that.

I understand fully why my FWW had an A. I just don't agree with much of it.

If SH feels (I can't remember his POV from when we talked) "failing to protect weaknesses" means nothing more than a person allowed another to meet EN's then I don't agree with it as the "why" of an A. I can understand it, but don't agree. Frankly, I don't think I have to in order to recover. Because generally, I think understanding (as opposed to agreeing) is enough to be able to forgive.

For me the "failing to protect weaknesses" concept encompasses more than just allowing another to meet EN's. Which is why I posted that I felt "failing to protect weaknesses" is not a "simple" explanation.

To me, weakness comes when you are relatively unhappy. This applies to people who are just unhappy and begin to seek something to make them happy and to people who find themselves in situations that all of a sudden make them happier (i.e. the attention of a OP).

"Protecting" that weakness is about solving that relative unhappiness problem in a mature, short and long term appropriate, acceptable way. I think anyone who has an A ultimately failed at that.

When one wants to get to why the failed in the manner they failed. Most times, I think it's unfortunate opportunity.

To me the "why" is the most important thing.

You need to know "why" to protect it from happening again and i just do not agree or understand that simply "failing to protect your weaknesses" is "why" any affair happens.

If this is the supposed reason "why", then why did it not happen earlier in the relationship. There has to be more to it than that. There has to be a reason it happened "when" it happened.

SC - I'm really not trying to change your mind. So, I am just answering your question based on my opinion.

On the question of why not earlier, my response would be the person did not have either a) the weakness earlier (i.e. a relative state of unhappiness) or b) an opportunity/threat against those weaknesses.

Anyway, I just posted what I did to see if it may help TTH sort through this.

As to why it didn't happen sooner, my feeling is that the WS that never chose to commit adultery before, simply decided to do it this time.

This thread is starting to remind me of an old commercial...

Great Taste!
Less Filling!

TTH. I left a response on your wife's thread about letting go and choosing to forgive. That's what you need to decide. Not why it happened. Why it happened will never fix your marriage.

Even if you were told exactly why it happened, you could never understand it. To you ANY answer is beyond your comprehension. When you get to that point, you have to choose to stop asking the question.


Good luck. I know it's hard.

Well said. Thank you all for your opinions and helping us through this. I don't think there is ever going to be a good enough answer to the why of the affair. I don't know myself why I chose to do what i did. I didn't have this fantasy to run away with the guy or anything. I knew my husband was better than him. So why did I do it? It did feel good at first to have someone meeting some of my emotional needs especially conversation, but I have to say when things started to get physical I never felt worse about myself. I wasn't eating and lost a lot of weight. I was having awful dreams, I felt tired all the time. I was depressed. I was not having the time of my life during those last two and a half months after the Physical part of the A started, so why did I keep doing it? Your guess is as good as mine...

Sorry I had to bail on this thread last night but 4am comes very early. Spent some time cathching up on all of this and don't want others to think that "why" is irrevelant. Dr Carder in " Torn Assunder"(which is a very good book) states that it is imperative.

How is a WS know exactly how to affair proof a M, unless and until, they completely understand the process that brought them to their A in the first place?


IAM, this is so completely untrue and false that it's almost laughable! Kinda reminds me of an Ostrich with it's head in the sand. Considering your newness here, it's understandable. Sorry, don't mean this to be condescending(sp), but I expect you will feel differently in the future.


To Mrs. W and Lexxy and others,

I never meant my remarks as a personal assault on you or other WS's. If you took it that way, I apoligize for my tone and demeanor. Mostly, my responses were with my own FWW in mind. She had a hard time accepting blame for her actions, but I think she finally has it now.

TTH, your WW seems Godly sorrowful for her actions. To affair proof your M, she and yes you, will need a "WHY" to all of this and that will take EXTREME honesty! It's pretty hard for a WS to look in the mirror, cause it hurts like heck, and nobody wants to volunteer for that.

I do wish you and your FWW much sucess in your journey for the "ugly" truth. It will however, facilitate a M built like the fortress it was meant to be.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I believe that the why is different for everyone. I know that two years ago when i was really depressed about moving so far away from my family and not knowing anyone in the area i was not honest with TTH. I didn't tell him how very upset I was about something that he was doing. I will say that I tried, but not hard enough. I was lonely and sad and I believe this is why it was so easy to become close to someone else. I had convinced myself that TTH didn't care about me. I let those boundaries be moved and off I went letting someone else meet those needs that should have been met by my husband. I did not protect myself from it. I liked the attention I was getting and it was wrong.

Is this why? Is it some other reason that I can't see. This is why I think I had an affair, because I was not open enough with my husband when it was critical to be. Because I was not open with him I allowed someone to come in. Because I moved that boundary It was easy to move other ones before i knew they were even being moved.

Is this making sense? TTH wants to know why the affair happened, wants to know what I was thinking... I was thinking he didn't care about me anymore..

Don't mistake my newness to the board as lack of experience as a BS (I've been in recovery over 2 years).

Frankly, you are condesending. And you can expect whatever you like about my future.

Id like to ask you something....

How can one understand something one says they could never commit? Something they've never experienced? A feeling totally foreign to them?

Can a WS understand the pain of the BS? If not, then how can the BS understand the 'why' of the betrayal? It is something out of their comprehension. There really are questions that cannot be answered.

Can you explain what an orange tastes like to someone who has never tasted one?

Thanks for you concern.

So here I sit X years later, what should I do that I am not doing now?

FORGIVE HER

But I have chosen to forgive her, ...where did I go wrong?

By chosing to harbor your feelings of anger,bitterness, and resentment.

Very wise words.

TTH,

Sorry it's been a while. I have been following your threads though. I just don't post too often because I'm very busy with the boys and I still have many of my own struggles.

I agree whole heartedly with Dr. Harley that we are all wired for As. It's part of human nature. It's what drives us to procreate and ensure the existence of our species. Throw in the fact that we have become a ME ME ME society and that we are constantly bombarded with infidelity in music, movies, tv and it is a recipe for disaster. Where my opinion differs is that one's life experiences and personality can lessen the likelihood that we would have an A. I know that I cannot say I would NEVER have an A, but I'm also strong enough in my convictions to say that I do not believe when faced with the opportunity that I would have an A. Even 3 months before LaLa's A she would have swore that she would never have an A. I would have backed her up 100% and bet my life on it. Obviously, we were both wrong or we wouldn't be here. So why do I say that I do not believe I would have an A?

I have an innate fear of God. I took vows before God, my family and friends that I would "love, honor and cherish" LaLa "forsaking all others" and "for better or worse". I made my choice when I made these promises. To break these vows would be damning myself and I believe my fear would prevent me from doing it. The commitment I have to these vows is the same commitment that has given me the strength to recover from LaLa's A. This is just the "worse" part of the vows I made.

I took a vow for my ODS Many of you probably don't know, but our ODS was born with a heart defect that required open heart surgery at 23 hours old. He was on the brink of death and this operation was his only chance for survival. Actually, I don't even know that I have ever shared this story with LaLa. In that first 24 hours after surgery, when he was hanging by a thread, I went to the chapel and begged God to spare his life. I gave my solemn vow that no matter what happened I would never abandon him or this family. That I would do anything in my power to provide the best life possible for him. From that moment on he turned the corner and recovered. To me, turning against that vow would be like turning against my ODS. Something I do not believe I could do.

I'm a terrible liar I know that I can not tell lies. Even little white lies are difficult for me. You can read me like an open book. Plus, I know that secrets always find a way of coming out. I'm just not naive enough to believe that I could ever get away with it.

I over analyze EVERYTHING DUH! If you have ever read any of my posts you know how true this is. Even the simplest decisions require me to weigh the pros and cons to make a choice. To some degree, I think I suffer from mild OCD. I obsess over the smallest details. I believe during this thought process that I couldn't choose to go against me beliefs or the promises I have made.

I have previous experience with As Before LaLa and I were married, I was cheated on by several girlfriends. I also had the unfortunate experience of catching one girlfriend in bed with an OM. None of those relationships survived. I have always known full well the kind of damage that infidelity can cause. Because of these events, I have ALWAYS kept extraordinary precautions as part of my life. I can honestly say that not even once have I had a conversation with someone of the opposite sex that I would not have had in front of LaLa.

I gave my word to LaLa Because of my previous experiences the subject of infidelity was discussed openly throughout our marriage. It was something I knew we needed to avoid at all costs. I knew it would be something that I would struggle to overcome because of my beliefs and personality. LaLa and I have made many promises to one another that we would never inflict this on the other. I'm a firm believing that a man is only as good as his word. I think my belief in that would prevent me from breaking my word.

I think a big part of the problem with these types of discussions is that when someone claims they would NEVER have an A it automatically insinuates a superiority over those that have. It's been proven time and time again on these boards that you should NEVER say NEVER. My DW included. I think a better way of stating it would be that "I do not believe that I would choose to have an A."

You see, some of the people I have the most respect for on MB are FWS(I hate labeling them). First and foremost would be my DW LaLa. It must take an incredible amount of courage to come here and face one's demons head on. Then, to come up against threads like this one, which in essence boil down to character assassination must be very disheartening. I have told LaLa many times throughout our recovery that I view her no differently today than the day we were married. She is my equal and my partner regardless of her faults, flaws or mistakes. I am not perfect. I have plenty of faults and flaws of my own. We are all capable of horrendous things under the right circumstances. Things we would never dream we are capable of doing. Everyone here has a breaking point. We are after all human aren't we?

Want2Stay