Looking back at my choice it was adultery.

For Ezb and Bunny (I give up on which post to click on to get the "response" correct)...

Another tip...each time one of you shares anything...it's a gift. Sure might not be the way we experience it, that's for sure.

I would ask you thank your partner when you ask a question and they answer it. Recognize that's new, and you receive it as the gift it is...because they chose to answer, you didn't make them.

My perception is in the last number of exchanges between both of you, you got answers, clarifying or confirming, you may not have expected to get. Treasure those.

Intimacy is knowing and being known. Mirrors what we strive for first, same order. We are not entitled to knowing or to be known...human generosity.

Another communication tip I found of great value when another MB poster pointed it out to me. I remain grateful. And yes, I sometimes lose that perspective...I believe it is true, though.

LA

Thank you! LOL

Have you guys learned about repair attempts in communication?

LA

Bunny,

Good to know. I also had that experience, which is why I was asking...I didn't know then what I know now.

I changed my beliefs about marriage (stopped talking myself into betraying myself) and began acting from those new beliefs.

Maybe your perspective is different, because I recall you saying you put your marriage before everything. Would you say you were doing so back then, knowing what you know now?

LA

I do still feel remorse yes. I believe I get more and more out everyday when I'm alone.


I feel things would have been totally different had I not gone into withdrawl and dealt with things the way I did and took things away. I also have feelings on things that are not mine that could have been different and would have helped.



I feel I have been doing much better in listening and understanding her better. Does not mean I'm not perfect or close or ever will be.

May I ask when your view on this changed?

I have always betrayed myself because I thought it was for the better of the marriage and would come out fine in the end.

Yes I have always put my marriage first all the way up to the day I filed for divorce.

I believe it has been a couple years now. I tried to express this feeling also to you.

Do you believe we get emotions out of us?


I would like to suggest you pump up your clarity...I hear you saying you believe your relationship with your wife would have been totally different had you not chosen to withdraw; you wish you had reacted differently than you did and you acknowledge you both experienced loss, understand her loss of you when you withdrew, is that correct?

I hear one thing similarly from you both--a wishfulness coming from now seeing how it could have been different...both through your actions and your perceptions. What you're seeing is not the past...which is unchangeable...you only knew what you knew then, and now that you know better, you do better (Maya Angelou props)...what you're seeing is your vision of a thriving marriage in your future...

You sorrow for her loss and your own...when we withdraw, we lose shared experience with each other and reality...knife always cuts both ways. Grieving your loss is like, well, grieving...you first experience denial...don't get stuck there. Then you experience anger...bargaining (control urges), then sadness (which is healing...experiencing sorrow)...and then acceptance.

Don't confuse acceptance with approval.

I hear this in your differing viewpoints on who is focused on the past and the present...this grieving...

Acknowledge her loss, her sorrow--every disconnect was your loss, too...she's significant, worth cherishing...see where withdrawal doesn't protect, it excludes.

There's healthy exclusion (when you remove yourself because you lose control of your flooding emotions); when you make your marriage about just you and her, and your union...because you're both highly complex (you're humans) and vast. And your union reflects both of you--it's dynamic, not static, which compounds the complexity.

You won't experience loss of others when you remove them from your marriage. They were a distraction...a false way of self-comfort, getting false emotions and other false payoffs...which I believe you're now seeing, because The Marriage is sacred and fragile and strong...all at the same time. It cannot protect you from anything.

That's cherishing. And no, I had no clue how to really cherish. I learned.

LA

You understand you betrayed yourself repeatedly. Would you consider simultaneously you were actually betraying the marriage, because you're half of it?

I think you know I'm not out to shame you. What you chose to believe wasn't really valid, was it, now that you look back...is self-betrayal ever the right thing to do?

Was finding out sacrifice is harmful to marriages surprising to you?

Can you see where sacrifice is self-betrayal, so its a betrayal to the marriage, as well?

Radical honesty is crucial to thriving marriages...would you say you were radically honest back then with yourself and with ezb?

LA

Even though what you have repeatedly told me is "If we were better then the lifestyle would be much more enjoyable"? I guess I'm not understanding how you tried to tell me that.

I believe emotions are always a good thing and if we got them all out of us we would just be shells. I believe they fluctuate with knowledge and surroundings.


Yes that is correct.

I have to go to bed now. Thank you LA.

Good night hun and I love you.

No it was not surprising to me. I did not see it as betraying the marriage becausing making someone happy I thought would in turn reflect in what I wanted. I do not see that now however.

Yes I believe I was honest with myself and him as I have never asked for things that were not given to me in the beginning of our relationship that he used to give.

ezb, I bring this paragraph forward, because I want to point out something. There was a poster a while back who we later determined was not being entirely honest, who was indeed trying to manipulate us readers/posters, who was very good with words, and with whom I ultimately lost faith. The reason was that he wrote...pretty. He wrote fake. Your paragraph reminds me of that. I don't know if it is a true assessment of you, but we definitely have the potential of approaching that. Let me outline the words in the paragraph that worry me. That make me think you are trying to make yourself look good, like a martyr, a godly person who is just misunderstood. Perhaps you are misunderstood, but the words in this paragraph sound...oily.

I'm not trying to dis you; I'm trying to point out the image you may be sending out. Recognizing that may be helpful for you.

Because I learned from you what you wanted to hear and told it to you hoping that I would get the things promised to me by you.

Being disrespectful and posting to you, Ezb, about what you said here to Bunny:


I don't see you respecting, striving to understand or comprehend what she said.

"I hear you saying you believe you tried to express your feeling for the past couple of years, is that correct?"

She didn't say she did it...she believes she tried to express...it's not a fact to refute.

Own your own perception, "My perception focused on when I heard you say 'If we were better then the lifestyle would be much more enjoyable'. Now I get that you were saying the lifestyle was NOT enjoyable or as enjoyable for you."

Ezb, are you hearing "you're wrong" when your wife responds to you?

LA

Those were and are my true and honest feelings cat. I conveyed that at the times. Did I to the satisfaction that my wife understood how great a job she did or my opinion of it? Only she can answer that.

Very good example LA, thank you.

I believe at times yes I'm hearing "your wrong". Others I hear hurt, resentment, anger ad more of telling me how horrible I have been.

Here is my answer to that question:

I did not hear from him that what I did was a great job. I felt and heard that we could not slow down on the swinging even though I was trying to get the stuff done for our wedding.

Then to find out later that he would have considered it as my way of not wanting him to be involved and have fun also.