I have also stated the fact that I know I learned how to manipulate and be controlling and it is something I'm changing.

Ok then why is it something that has to now be worked on? If you love me the way you are saying you do and have all along I do not feel it is something that should have been taken for granded.

Then I guess I'm confused or don't have answers for what is meant.

Why are you avoiding or skirting around these questions and not just answering them? The way you are answering them is manipulating because you will not just come out and state the answers.

I feel every person reaches a state of realization. I also feel not any 2 of us reach that state at the same moment in time.

I hear you saying you don't believe i have ever loved you, is that correct?

It was a glorious euphoric state. Something behond compare in enjoying life. I have stated I was obsessed with it and let it come between us.

I also have stated that I learned to manipulate outcomes.


I hear you and I feel that statement is not skirting the issue.

So do you also believe that people come in and out of that realization?


That is correct that is what you hear me saying once again. And as I have said before I have only felt that I was around for the swinging, a free babysitter for your kids, the extra income and someone to care/clean house.

I would agree it fluctuates yes.

Bunny, ezb, we usually discourage posters from posting on the same thread. Because you all are fighting and angry here. Disputing and refuting one another instead of validating the very real concerns. We all I have anger and strife in my own house; I don't come here for more of the same. We I come here to hear from individuals about their personal progress. Not people judging one another's progress. No one here as far as I know is trained to judge or gague sincerity.

Please pardon me if what I said to you was out of line. I'm breaking my own boundary of no R talk after 9pm. I'll sign off and go to bed.

Bunny, I understand that you want to hear more about how ezb recognizes his mistake. I wonder if anyone would be capable of doing that in an internet forum instead of in real life.

I encourage you all to call the Harleys so they can help you set up a plan that would create this commitment, this protection and care, through real action. Have you all read about extraordinary precautions? Do you have the book SAA?

Very true.


I took no offense. I stand firm on what I say.



Edit: good night everyone and thank you.

He reminds me so much of a very FAKEY guy who used to post here. The words he writes are identical. I would almost feel we are being played, if not for the pain I sense from your posts. I think you also made horrible choices and I hope you are completely ready to own them.

Here is one terrible concern. Where were his children during this swinging? You say you felt like you were a free babysitter. Were they in the home with any swingers?

I have to be honest and tell you that I believe it will take a miracle from God above to turn this into a real and loving marriage. Are either of you believers?

I started to write how wrong you are but I decided to change that realizing that judgement of me is based on looking at words not fact and you have no idea who I'am. I highly doubt my words are identical so that tells me something right there.

I know there are good intentions on these boards but some of the posers on here need to realize that there is no way you can tell if a person is real, genuine or honest by looking at words. The judgements really suprise me based on the faith they profess and lack of knowledge of me.


Do not concern yourself with my children. They play no part in this or the swinging and any reference to them or of them is not needed in these posts.

ezb and Bunny,

I did not realize this was a swinging type of marriage when I posted my earlier posts; I should have been more thorough.

ezb,

I just wanted to say that maybe you are so uncomfortable with MedolyLane because she is very good at getting to the heart of the matter. She may be blunt, but she's very effective if you are strong enough to hear/ act from the truth. Please reconsider and let her back in, as she may be your most direct (yet painful) path to resolving these issues.

I will respectfully bow out now as I have no experience with this type of thing.

I wish you both luck and hope that you can find you ways to true loving w/o the garbage.

Bring,


Please don't bow out. Your experience with other things has helped me.

Is being honest with her and myself wrong? Why does it feel wrong or is it just that it hurts? Does my acceptance of the fact that swinging might not have a part in our future but I know it definately doesn't have a part in our present not count? I don't know if these are questions or just confusion on my part.

She has stated shes felt I have never loved her. What a realization that is. Does that mean all I have done means nothing? Does that mean the love I did show was never truly there? If I didn't care or I didn't love her would I even be going thru all this and why would I bother even coming here?




Edit: I see these questions meaning I have to do some soul searching.

LA, cat, bring,

thank you and thank you for your approaches and your help and insight.


ML,


Inspite of how I feel about your approach, thank you also.

And thank you to anyone else who has helped or commented.

Do you think being honest with yourself and your wife as wrong? Can feel wrong as a result of believing that it is better to not do harm than to be honest...

Honesty can involve conflict, hurt feelings.

Would you consider swinging like alcohol to the alcoholic? Maybe what you're feeling is when an addict says, "I can never drink again"...can feel overwhelming. It's why instead they say, "One day at a time"...only that's after they realize the full damage it caused them in their lives and marriages...which can also feel overwhelming. When the pain outweighs the pleasure, we stop doing the harm. When we really get the extent of the damage, takes it scope, and see it for what it is...then we really do stop.

And we commit.

Without that belief that it is harmful to your marriage, to yourself and to your wife...even to your humanity...then it will feel like deprivation...won't it?

One of the reasons an addict does his drug is from entitlement.

I'm generalizing now...so many ways we dupe ourselves into believing we are not harming when we know we are...especially ourselves.

Why did you take her sharing her experience as fact? Respect her experience...she believes she never felt loved by you. As in all things human, you can only be half of her experience...she controls the other half. Why not flip it over for now and look at why you felt loved by her?

When our love banks go into the red, we often experience the "never" feeling...it colors our remembrances...doesn't make it fact. What I think you discovered in yourself in her statement was you have a goal, a deep desire, for her to feel really loved by you.

That's good to know, if that's what you discovered. Is it really in your power to make her feel...anything? Only you know if you choose to love your wife and to act on your love...and you know if you did or did not.

Only you know that.

And if you're only doing stuff to make her feel loved, then you're in fantasy, aren't you? If you, however, are making your changes, studying and learning, and acting from your choice to love your wife fully and well...your half, what you control, what you are responsible for.

I don't advise measuring your love as a result...you know from loving actions come loving feelings...and experiencing love. And you also know now that your two-way street means that if you are relying on someone else to feel loved and not loving yourself, you won't feel loved; and if you're not presently acting from your love, you won't feel loving feelings.

There's not a thing wrong with you or your wife. You are both whole, complete human beings made from love by the same creator. Realizing you are this being is huge...separate from acting from that realization.

And know what truly matters to you...by feeling what hurts the most and tracing...you want desperately for her to feel greatly loved, respected and cherished...and you want that for yourself to feel and your marriage.

I have no doubt. Know your real payoffs from your false ones.

LA

LA thank you. I want to let you know I'm not ignoring your post or posting this directed towards you. It is for others who claim I have been covering things up when in fact they need to read this thread again from the begining.



#2062166 - 05/22/08 10:18 AM Re: Control and Manipulation [Re: ezb]


That is the date of a post I made in this thread for all those claiming I'm covering up or ignoring AN issue. It's on the first page or 2 of this thread depending on how many posts you have set in your preferences.

Thanks again everyone and please remember before you post a comment to make sure that something on what your claiming was never said or admitted actually wasn't instead of was.

Contents of that post:

Ok it's time. It was time long ago so here goes:


My selfishness, my greed and my infatuation for the lifestyle caused me to learn how to manipulate, control, hurt my wife and among other things to destroy the bond we had and our marriage. It caused me to take away her self esteem, her pride and her self worth. It caused me to destroy the loving bond she had to me.

I'm think I'm going to be sick.

Very true.


I don't take it as fact now and i see why I shouldn't. She owns her feelings and I own mine. The word "never" is overwhelming though considering I have done good things. I feel those are being overshadowed by the bad which is where the difference comes into play I feel. Nothing right, nothing wrong, just different.




This is tough to flip. Mainly because my love languages were not known (even by me).


Yes I have that deep desire and in a literal sense no it's not in my power to make her feel loved. A good example of this would be my project I worked on over the holiday weekend. Her primary LL is quality time. Now I couldn't and can't give her that right now because she is not accepting of that. I understand that and so I practiced that quality time making something for her. Now when she does see it will that make her feel loved? Probably not in the state things are and I knew that ahead of time and actually it shouldn't and doesn't matter. I still made the choice to show that love by making it. Acceptance was a non factor to me. Makes it more unconditional I feel.




LA I do like your style of communication. It gets thru to me. It takes me a few reads sometimes to sort thru the "jibber jabber" (I think you know I don't mean that condesending) but thats a good thing. Gets me to think and "react" (if need be) in what I view an understanding manner. Thank you so much for taking the time here.

How could you possibly believe your children play no part in your situation? Every single case of adultery negatively affects the children. They are part of this whether you are comfortable with that or not.