My wife and I have been married for 8 months. You can search for my previous posts to get a better history of the situation, but basically we have been fighting over various things for three years of the four we've been together (and, as I've learned, during the first year we didn't fight only because she kept it all to herself). It mainly comes down to my not meeting her emotional needs. I've been trying desperately to meet them, and since February I think I've been doing better using everything I've learned from MB.

Things had gotten better, but I recently became unemployed and the financial strain seems to be breaking her. I have some work lined up, although not nearly enough, and I won't start getting paid full time again until late August (I teach at a university). Right now I'm completely without pay and that won't change for two or three weeks. Then last weekend we got into a big fight because I violated her trust in me. I had been doing a better job of meeting her ENs, and she started to warm up to me, but I got in a grumpy mood and wasn't doing a good job of responding to her warming up. So now she feels rejected and things have been going down hill all week.

Today she finally snapped. On the way to work this morning things were a bit better and we were talking more, but then she became irate because I had a job interview today and she thought that I hadn't cleaned up enough for it (she thought my beard looked sloppy; I did clean up some before the interview after the fight). Then when I picked her up after work she delivered the ultimatum to me.

She said that I had a month to shape up or she was leaving. She's given me ultimatums before but never followed through on them, I like to think at least partially because I improved, but this time something is different. She doesn't seem to have the slightest bit of sadness about it; she's been pretty detached when talking to me about it. And she's making plans for how to divide our stuff, talking it out to me about what things she wants to divvy up how. She's also being especially mean to me, saying lots of hurtful, cutting things about past things I've done.

At this point I'm not sure what to do anymore. I'm trying to come up with a month long plan to do a little more each day to prove to her that I can be better, but is this even worth it? Do you think I can make a change and win her back?

Also, there are some things she needs to work on, but I never feel like I can address them with her because she always turns it back on me, and I can't talk about my LBs without her turning to verbally abusing me. I know what the articles say, but I'm just having a hard time seeing what I should do here.

Thanks for reading this; I really appreciate it! This community is a life saver.

This may come across as overly harsh, but it really sounds like you are supplicating too much. She will just continue to lose her respect and her level of attraction to you will continue to diminish if you stay on this same course.

(By the way, after writing this, I decided to go back and read some of your earlier posts. Catperson said essentially the same thing to you that I just wrote. See her post from 01/28 in the "want to change but can't" thread.)

You should turn the tables here. You sound like a good guy who cares about her feelings. She is the one who needs to "shape up" in the next month.

You, on the other hand, might want to consider: exercise, starting a new hobby, and taking good care of yourself (respecting yourself and ensuring that you are operating from your strength rather than supplicating to her arbitrary and capricious emotional flip-outs).

Again, these are simply a few quick observations that are being offered without the benefit of the detailed daily interactions between the two of you. I do hope these observations are of some use to you. It sounds like you are in a really difficult place.

I agree. If she brings it up again, reply with something like "I'm sorry you feel that way. It's pretty obvious now that you want something I'm not capable of giving. I'll do what's in my power to give my 50% of the relationship, but if you're not willing to invest by trying to meet me halfway, and meet MY needs, then I guess we're not meant for each other." And mean it. Why do you want to stay married to someone who just keeps demanding more from you.

Plus, if you're not standing up for yourself, it makes you very unattractive. You deserve happiness just as much as she does. Don't let her willingness to be mean and mad overrun what YOU need out of life, just because you don't want to be as mean as her.

They say 1 withdrawal wipes out 100 deposits. What's your plan to protect her from that LB happening again? What was it? Is it something we could help you brainstorm about? For example, if my H kicked me in the stomach, all that EN meeting wouldn't be as relevant to me as getting myself safe, because I'd know it would be uinreasonable to expect him to keep me safe from him.

How did you violate her trust?

Another thought.

I've found it's been very helpful in my relationship to keep in mind two things: First, I can survive a broken heart and divorce. Second, that while matrimony is sacred, there are other things that are more sacred. In other words, I'm not willing to stay married at any cost.

I wouldn't allow harm to come to my children in order to stay married, and I won't allow harm to come to me in order to stay married.

Getting hurt (emotionally) when you are married is pretty much a fact. Our spouses will on occassion do something accidentally that hurts our feelings. But, harm is something different. Harm is permanent. Getting our ears pierced hurts, but it doesn't harm us. Snorting coke doesn't hurt (I think), but it certainly harms us.

If your spouse repeatedly harms you, you need to get out until said spouse proves he or she is safe to be around.

I violated her trust as follows.

For the few days prior she had started warming up to me again. I had finally made enough deposits that things were finally getting to a good place (they had been slowly getting there for about three months), but then during the weekend I got into a grumpy mood and wrecked it. I got a new phone a couple days before, and I was playing with it more than I should have been (it's a new toy; it's hard to help it!) which made her feel rejected when she was trying to be more connected to me. Also I was not being very responsive because I was in a bit of a bad mood, so when I had my arm behind her on the seat next to me at one point and she came over an snuggled into me, I didn't realize it but I guess I didn't move much to pull her in, which also made her feel rejected. She said I violated the trust she was beginning to put in me, and it shot things so far down that we've ended up in what feels like a worse spot than before.

I know I need to stand up for myself, but I'm not a very assertive person. And when she starts coming down on me with things I'm doing wrong and how I'm messing up the relationship, I try to focus on how I can change those things because it feels like the adult thing to do. I might get the urge to try to turn things around on her, but that just feels childish. I can't seem to find a way to get her to change the things she needs to without ending up in what feels like a worse position.

Maybe my wife is right and I can't make things work. I think I can, but she knows just how to break me.

I hear what you're saying. If you are engaging in "payback" behavior, that might be considered by some as being childish.

So, why don't we re-cast this picture from an entirely different perspective? Instead of trying to "turn things around on her", why don't you take some time alone and work on your own concept of maintaining your own self-respect and dignity. This is going to include a willingness to be firm about your own boundaries.

It's also going to include no longer being as tolerant of her (apparently) needy and immature accusations/feelings about you paying more attention to your cell phone than her.

In the end, this is not about trying to "turn the tables" at all. Instead, it is about your own dignity, self-respect, independence (as a human being), and maturity.

Um. Being in a bad mood is not violating trust, in my book. Not being able to meet 100% of her emotional needs on command is not a violation of trust.

Lying is a violation of trust.
Using marital funds and assets in a manner of which your spouse wouldn't approve is a violation of trust.
Abusing your spouse is a violation of trust.
Being willfully negligent is a violation of trust.
Failure to honor your word or keep a promise may be a violation of trust.

Not squeezing your wife as she sat next to you is not a violation of trust.

There's a perversion of the "owning your feelings" practice out there. It's when people use "my feelings are my feelings" to blame others and often to manipulate them. Your wife may have felt hurt that you were playing with your new phone when she wanted your attention. There's nothing wrong with her feeling hurt. But, that doesn't necessarily mean YOU are the root cause. And it certainly doesn't rise to betrayal.

A, I'm wondering if your wife isn't playing the constantly raising the bar. First, you need to a. Once you do a, that's not good enough. You really had to do a and c and sure you know that. If you do a and c flawlessly, it was really x and z you were supposed to do. Does that sound possible? While I think expectations can and do rise in healthy marriages, the spouses in healthy marriages don't use bar raising as a technique to prevent intimacy or put the onus of change on the other spouse.

LiesRedux, thank you for your suggestions. You putting things in those terms does give me a better idea about what I need to do to help straighten things out. I have a better idea about how I can say things without it becoming a case of me apply the same type of behavior to her that she does to me.

Greengables, I think you're right about the rising bar. And it's an easy trap for someone like me, because I'll agree all along that I should be better about the next thing. I'd imagine there are lots of people who fall for the same thing on this forum, simply because they care enough about making change to come here.

At this point, I guess things can't get much worse. She keeps letting me know how many days I have left and seems pretty set on leaving at the end of them. So really, what's the worst she can do, leave a couple days early?

Akasia, Why not take fate into your own hands?

If the worst she can do is leave sooner, why not dramatically change your approach?

What if you give her an ultimatum? "Honey, I love you and I want this marraige to work. However, your actions are in direct conflict with creating a happy and healthy marriage. While I'll concede I may need to make a few changes in my behavior, I don't agree that with your assessment of me. For the sake of the vows we both made, please come to marriage counseling with me and let's both make a good-faith effort to change our behavior for the better."

Maybe even put it in writing. Maybe even have a counseling appointment set up in advance that you can invite her to join you in. If she refuses, I'd ask her to leave and hand her a Plan B letter.

You don't have to play her game. What is she offering you in return for your efforts to meet her every whim?

That sounds like a good idea. I will try it.

At this point, she's barely giving me anything in return. She has basically shut me out emotionally and we go through periods where she kicks me out of the room, won't talk to me except to yell at me at times like when I pull into the parking lot to drop her off for work when she can get in a shot at me without having to see my response, and have to pretend that everything is okay so that we don't embarrass ourselves.

I think part of the trouble stems from my personality. A long time ago, a little over one year after we started dating, I found that I had fully committed myself to her. We made it official two years later, but all the while I was emotionally married to her. I'm a very loyal person and find it painful to even think about betraying somebody in any way. I think she exploits this, partly because her mother played the same emotional games with my wife's father and my wife and it's what she knows how to do, and it keeps me in a subservient position.

Admittedly, I have done things to cause her a great deal of upset and anger. I totally botch several milestones, including our first kiss, the first time we had sex, my proposal, and a few anniversaries and valentines days. When people ask how I proposed to her and she's around she struggles not to get angry about it. These are some major LBs to overcome, I know, but I've been actively trying to make deposits for three years, the last year with the help of MB. Yet it seems like it's never enough.

I made these mistakes because of inexperience and an attitude inappropriate for someone in a committed relationship. But I've changed or have made efforts to change the causes, but I always hear from her that I haven't made a single change since the day we started dating. I do fight back on this point because I've worked hard to be better, but she always dismisses the things I point out and says I don't even know what it would mean to really try. I don't believe her, but when you hear it enough from the person you love most it's hard not to.


There was a time when I was the taker the in relationship, but she has been the taker now for far too long. I knew I would have to give more than I took for a while to let her get back a sense of fairness in our relationship, but now she's become addicted to it. All she does is try to take from me and gives me nothing in return emotionally. She makes more money than me, but I survived on less than I make now when I was single, and besides she spends all her money and most of mine (but complains that I'm not giving enough because her account is always empty and mine still has a little saved in it). I have friends; I'm sure someone will let me crash on their couch. I know I can be on my own again if I have to because she refuses to be a part of the relationship.

Long ago I made a promise to my wife that if things ever went bad between us I would try until I knew she had nothing for me to make things better. I think, though, that she has little left that she is willing to give me, and if things don't change, I may find that I'm the one leaving her.

Sorry to project, if that's what I'm doing, but your wife sounds a bit like me, minus about nine years of psychoanalysis. I have been discussing the things I want from DH in another thread on this message board. All along I thought I wanted X, Y and Z from my husband, but in fact I was confused about what I wanted. Some of what I wanted was for DH to fix my existential unhappiness, and this was not something he could do.

My dear H is a man who is very stable in himself. He has been committed from day 2 or 3 (to say from day 1 would be inaccurate) just the same as you say. But I know, when he would do things like force himself to wash the dishes, even though I knew I had told him I needed more help around the house, it wasn't really what I wanted. I wanted proof that he cared for me, and I wanted the gesture that he did to be that proof. I didn't want it to be just him doing one thing I asked him to do. So even when he did the things I said I wanted him to do, I wasn't happy.

We went to MC and he said he felt like he could never figure out what I wanted, that nothing he did was good enough for me. So true. My bad.

On the other hand, your not putting your arm around your W might have been passive-aggressive payback. My behavior induced a passive-aggressive response in DH. He has said so himself, and I've detected it.

Maybe your W really deep down would like you to stand up for yourself. I know it never felt good when DH stood up to me, however he was right to do so and I have to say, I never would have gotten "better" if it had not been for the fact that he refused to play my games. He has always been very good at taking care of himself. I think of it as an example to follow, in my better moments.

As I said, I am all too aware that I am probably projecting, at least in part, but it sounds like your wife has "issues." It may not be a problem of what you're not doing, but a problem with the magnitude of what she wants. If you buy into taking her needs literally, you might be responding, unconsciously, in a passive-aggressive manner, which will drive her nuts. Unconsciously, you may be wanting to drive her nuts. I would be very angry in your position. Might your anger be plowed under and suppressed? If it is, you're going to be doing things to undermine your conscious good will. She may have detected this, and if I'm right, to own up to it might give her some relief. Things sound sort of polarized with you giving and giving and her taking and taking. But in fact you may be doing some payback as I said, and one of the ways to do that is to just give, give, give, but always just short of the way she wants.

BTW my DH didn't propose to me at all. We had been going out for four years. One night we were out for dinner with his mother and her second husband, whom she had just married. His stepfather asked us if we were ever going to get married, and he said, "I guess so." I had already asked him, not romantically, but after three years I put it on the table. So stepfather pulled out his calendar and told us to pick a date, and we did. One might consider that a botch, but to me it is a funny story.

I think the two of you aren't getting to the heart of the matter, which is not necessarily anyone's lack of good will. It's inherently difficult, in these situations. But if you really want things to work out, if there are reasons you want to be with this woman for the long term, keep trying to get to the bottom of things, and inspect your own dark corners of the mind. We all have them, no shame there, but if they're getting in the way of potential happiness, best to face your own dark side, if you can. Also hers.

I'm about to be marrie for the second time. The first "proposal" was "So, do you wanna get hitched?" I kid you not.

The second was so vague and nebulous, I had to ask if he was talking marriage. He said "I am." I even asked if perhaps he would do a real proposal but I'm not holding my breath.

Imagine my delight when I was reading through Emily Post, circa 1974, and found a chapter on engagment. Elizabeth Post (the author of the revised version) states that most times the gentleman never really says "Will you marry me?" An understanding slowly emerges, and they are engaged. Then, they pick out a ring and a date.

First kisses are always awkward. In my experience, perfect first kisses lead to bad endings. Sex the first time can be worrisome. You have to have a sense of humor about these things.

If your wife brings up any of this stuff again, I'd inform her that life is not a harlequin romance. If she wants a harlequin romance life, she should have become a single librarian.

And you, A, need to take a real unbiased look at your behavior and identify what is unacceptable and therefore you need to change, and what is really okay. My hunch is that many of your behaviors are okay.