Good morning, everyone. I am trying to learn to negotiate in marriage, and I am confused about "enthusiasm."

I have always thought unselfishness and sacrifice ("giving in") were part of getting along with other people. Now Dr. Harley says that, in marriage, we should only do things we enthusiastically agree on.

Does it always mean that we "want to" or "feel like" doing the thing discussed? Dr. Harley's explanation:


OK. When we feel, "I don't mind at all. You go ahead" or "Sure, that would be great. I really want to do X" that's enthusiastic agreement, right?

What about "doing things for people because we love them"? That seems to me to be giving the other person responsibility for the decision rather than "enthusiastic agreement." Is it?

OK. A concrete example:

I have always gone to church every week. It is part of my routine and part of my identity. My husband, who used to be religious and very involved in our local congregation--and now is not--insists on coming with me even though he doesn't want to. He says, "The pleasure I give you (usually) in sitting in church with you seems to be greater than the inconvenience and philosophical difficulties I feel in going. I don't usually suffer when I go. (Sometimes I do.) Your pleasure seems greater than my pain. Is it a 'sacrifice'? Well, in a way, but not a big one."

I have tried to decline this "sacrifice," particularly since it's been cited by my husband as a reason to claim the marital high ground ("I go to church to make you happy, but you won't do X to to make me happy"). But he insists on coming anyway.

Also, does "enthusiastic agreement" include logical consent, as in "Yes, I agree that X is the right thing to do. I don't want to [or 'want you to,' or 'want us to'] in the sense of 'feeling like it,' but I agree that you/I/we should do it. I'm not sacrificing; I'm making you responsible for my doing it; I'm not being a saint or just 'lubricating the machine' of our marriage. I am convinced and persuaded, even though X is not my idea of a good time."

Is that "enthusiastic agreement"?

Your comments welcome!

Amor,

You're not off here...enthusiasm is a tough one to get to when you've forgotten what it's like; normally a result of resentment from sacrifice and going along to get along (Conflict Avoidance).

I'm delighted you're examining how to locate your enthusiasm and find out how to use it to honor your marriage.

First tenet to know for me (and it was big) was that...

Humans do not do that which they do not want to do.

Which means, you may believe your H does not want to attend church with you and is sacrificing. He says he has a higher payoff...he gets to sit next to you, also...the closeness. Your pleasure is his pleasure, as well...it's something you do together...not an IB.

You can cut out a lot of love deposits with DJs...when you assume he's sacrificing. And when you cut out those love deposits and your bank gets low, you can blame him, too--for not going for himself, as you want him to...or not having the same spiritual beliefs or experience in the way you do.

You help your POJA sessions with your H when you really hear what he's saying, accept it as his perspective, and see if you aren't cutting out love deposits from him meeting your EN for spiritual intimacy (which, like all the other intimacies, is a work in progress). Next, you state your what you wish for (you'll find it underneath your DJ):

I wish you were excited, enthusiastic about church as I am. I wish you felt the deep pleasure I do, the peace, the <blank> I feel and think as a result of this experience.

Own your own stuff and share it...first you gotta know, then be known.

Next, how can you help the experience? Does your H love a big Sunday breakfast? Could having one together (just the two of you) before or after church be something you guys could be enthusiastic about? Or do you like long walks, love to window shop or shop, what's an RC thing you can do after/before church which adds to the experience (gives you guys more UA time and can share your spiritual/emotional experience in church)?

Please really read up on DJs in Harley's articles and his books...and look for posts here on MB...because they not only attack your marriage, and every other relationship you have--they can drastically how you experience your H, his presence, being together...and even, RC.

Assumptions kill relationships. The ARE false intimacy habits from old coping skills. You don't really need or want them in your life...eliminate them...because that frees you to live freely.

Cuts out the sacrifice, too.

Make a new vow (because you didn't know then what you know now)..."I will not do that which I will resent, for the good myself, my partner and my marriage."

Hold yourself to it...we don't resent doing the right thing (when it's really right...not about our feelings, thoughts, etc...when it's about our choosing our actions--for instance, you don't POJA..."I want you to feel calm." Can't POJA calm...sure can POJA with yourself how you will act calmly and not act out your stuff.)

Back to what you said about your H then using his non-sacrifice to be with you at church...and saying you won't do the same (like with sailing or, I forgot)...

See...giving to get doesn't work because you (as a human being) only control your choice to give...do not have control over what you get. So unless you state, "I will feel very enthusiastic about playing pinochle if you'll feel very enthusiastic about doing the dishes" and you both are thrilled with that thing...go for it.

I don't go for it...I'm with Harley...if I'm giving to get, then the flip side will be that I'm going to do tit for tat...and only give to get is fantasy in my book. If I thought my DH was only meeting my ENs to get his met, I would be out of here. What Harley describes is mutuality...where in giving you receive and vice versa...because no matter how I DJ, he meets my ENs. I meet his. That's the action. And we don't, the non-action remains as potent.

When we POJA, I have to feel excited--NOT about my DH's excitement (i.e., buying a new car)...because I can catch his excitement and then kick myself for years for saying "yes!" when I didn't really mean it...I think you know that experience...



I have to dig into my stuff, my fears, my beliefs about buying a new car right now...and hold myself to acting from my honesty: "I love your excitement. I used to betray myself because I didn't want to be the cause or your resentment, to shoot you down. I realize we have the monthly payment and insurance amount right now...I don't know if we will have it in six months, when XYZ is to happen."

If I'm upset because in my perspective, HE HAS A PERFECTLY GOOD CAR ALREADY...I gotta be honest with MYSELF as well...to my standards, it is...to his, he's sacrificed having a NICE car for what, 18 years? OMG...I hadn't thought of that. I always compared what I drove and made that good enough for him, too! I'm not crazy about cars...just as long as they run...seriously, no issue there. He's a guy...his perspective is not mine and I disrespect him every single time I compare mine to his...they are separate.

So then DH can address my fears, what's on our schedule..."I will drop this at that time to make sure we have room for the new car." Reasonable. I don't believe him, though. "If you don't drop that before, we're going to have a really tight time of it. Can we think up another way? How would you feel about dropping that now, before purchase?"

And my DH may gladly drop his other thing to get this new thing he's longed for...and then I can put the other thing's budget amount to a special account and my fear drops...and I'm assured this is really important to him. And we sit on it...for awhile...haste makes waste...and then we do. Or don't...until we get there...

I gotta watch out for my own shame...for having spent a couple of decades making stuff like mine (or trying to) and using shame tactics to get him to feel, think, believe or perceive the way I do.

You just can't make that up to someone...it's abusive and I did it. What I can do now is balance my past shame with my present commitment to having my Taker at the POJA table.

It's a process...to POJA IS an act of intimacy...how cool? Brings you guys together as teammates...allies. Bonding, fulfilling...leads to thriving.

Are you a perfectionist, Amor?

LA

Hi, LA. I really appreciate the time you are lavishing on helping me understand this stuff. I'm glad to have your input, and I will be thinking about it.

I don't know why I feel so vulnerable and weepy every time I think about not "getting my way," whether it's doing what he wants, or letting him do what I want if it's a "sacrifice." Maybe it was just looking at your help in formulating my underlying "what I wish for": I would love to have your input on my Monday morning post in the "negotiating to enthusiastic agreement--how?" thread. He really did say, But maybe I should accept that he (like anyone else) can have more than one idea/thought/reaction/emotion at the same time and accept his apology on that and just decide it was a bad conversational moment, not his deep agenda. ???

Some other difficulties I'm having with the concepts:

My father always says, "People do what they want to do." You say, "Humans do not do that which they do not want to do." So how does that fit in with your saying "Yes!" to the new car? Or my saying "OK" to lots of things that I didn't want to have or do?

So does "enthusiasm" vary with the individual? When you POJA, you "have to feel excited," but maybe my husband doesn't? And maybe what I quoted is his version of enthusiastic agreement?

What's a DJ? What's RC? (I did look around, but I don't see how to search the discussion forum. And I still haven't found an acronym list.)

What do you mean when you say "making stuff like mine"?

You wonder, Yes, when it comes to being married. I want to be really good at this.

I just recently (in April) recognized that I had developed this drama in my mind where I was the perfect wife for my husband, the only one who truly understood him, could appreciate what was good about him and tolerate what was irritating about him and give him a happy life despite his many deficits.

(Can you hear the violins?)

This, of course, was a script I developed way before I knew about his infidelity. It was a story I told myself about getting along with, often enjoying, a difficult man who is enormously self-sufficient, needs a lot of time to himself, is hard to distract, has a very hard time reading other people [children, wife, friends, acquaintances, whoever] and anticipating what their reactions are to the tones of his voice, etc. And thus has essentially no close friendships and is not very close to his own family.

The marriage counsellor thinks he has Asperger's. Which is much better than thinking he's a narcissistic jerk!

OK, so I saw that script I'd developed always let me see myself as the good, patient, forgiving, loving person and him as the immature selfish person, or even as the "damaged child." He didn't like feeling patronized, or being condescended to, but that was my way of relating to him. Easier and less conflict-provoking than somehow holding him to what I thought of as the "normal adult standard" of (for instance) voice modulation, civilized behavior, tact, unselfishness, and interactive sensitivity.

And when I used to think about my needs, or what I thought I might like, or the noble things I thought I might do (become a foster parent, act in a more environmentally aware fashion), my husband became my automatic excuse for not exploring it. I would relinquish what I thought I might like to do, since it was my mission to get him safely through life (be the only one who could make it possible for him to experience a nice family and a stable home life). Who else, after all, could ever put up with him but I, the perfect wife for him?

I get to move to a higher step, he moves lower, and all without us ever actually exploring the issue.

So, in April, I started recognizing all this in the way I was thinking about and relating to him, I wondered, "What if I'm not a good person after all, and I'm just really messed up ???

So now I am trying to be who I am. NOT pretend I'm as wonderful and perfect a wife as I thought I was, as I wanted him and everyone else to think I was.

So far, it's more stressful for him. He didn't like the condescension, but he doesn't care for the conflict, either.

Thanks for pointing out that my passion for a perfect pursuit of this POJA stuff might get in the way of my just believing my husband when he says he's fine with going to the wedding, going to church, whatever. Maybe his version of enthusiasm is not going to look like mine.

Am I getting what you were trying to tell me? I hope so. I am feeling A LOT better than I was when I first read your post and started writing this one. I REALLY APPRECIATE the help.

Amoret

Amor,

You're welcome. This is mutuality--I get as much out of sharing with you as I do with you sharing with me; and I think that's what you're saying...you're getting something out of our sharing as well.

Voila. Welcome to POJA!!!

Okay...I'm slap happy from lack of sleep, but that was fun. I high-fived myself...uhm, on the keyboard.


Only you can know why you feel so vulnerable...feel the feeling...trace it to the belief, the action, the perception it's coming from. You know we are all vulnerable...we are made of flesh for a reason, instead of bark; I believe, so we can connect. Vulnerable isn't bad...it's connective. Doesn't mean we aren't already safe, either.

Your feelings and beliefs are yours. We all want to feel safe...and until we look and see if we really WOULD make a great controller of the world (where everyone did it our way) and shudder with the thought, then we'll see, oh, yeah...I'm already safe...only I can be the cause, control and cure of my stuff...I can have problems and NOT be one. Period. You were taught sacrifice was a love language...hey, we operate daily under a lot of beliefs we took on before we knew WE choose our own beliefs...and they were handed down to our folks, from their folks, from their folks...

If you look at Jesus' death as a sacrifice, you could get that God wants us to love by sacrifice. If you look at God's plan for Jesus to come and experience a human existence, to talk about his father, give us an intimate relationship with God, and to die so he could rise again to example his father's plan, through our choice...uh, uhm...where was the sacrifice?

His was an act of love from his choice to love us. The greatest act imaginable...still, his choice.

I no longer live from sacrifice...I am not wasting my time or sacrificing anything to post to you--I'm celebrating you and appreciate you considering my opinions. My reward is within the act...I hope yours is also.

Also, if my sacrificing says "I have to do this to get you to love/treat me well/get you to give me my way" then you're actually saying to self "You are not lovable...you gotta buy your way into being loved; you're not worthy unless you do for others; your feelings don't matter, only their feelings matter."

I cried a ton just from these hidden beliefs behind my sacrificing.

I think you've experienced tears of stress, crisis, fear, pain, joy, happiness, relief...tears for all sorts of things. If you feel fear, you may cry tears from frustration...so, you cry. You leak.

God doesn't give us anything with it being of aid...and most often, harmful to us when we use/do it in the extreme. Tears communicate, physically relieve, mentally cleanse, spiritually connect...and yeah, we can learn to only express who we really are in our crying. That's not real--that's our fantasy...our final place of permission to express, really...impacts us like depression (anger turned inward), and we cry as our physical depression affects our tears...

See if your own self-betrayal (you didn't just start sacrificing as an act of love with your H...started long before that) might be a part of your tears, 'k? Getting your way doesn't help you, keep you safe...it's fantasy...it's the fertile ground to keep you building resentment instead.

It's a great distraction from a great marriage.


I thought that's what I was doing...continuing on with a thread you first started...LOL. Sorry 'bout that. I'll look it up tomorrow, after some sleep, 'k?



What? How did I miss the swingers club thing? Do you mean like a swing dancing club? Similar to ballroom dancing?

Why not brainstorm new recreational activity neither of you have done together before? The Recreational Inventory is terrific...and fun just going through it together. That's RC--Recreational Companionship.


I don't know...I subscribe to the listen and repeat to confirm or clarify. Especially on this response. I don't know when he said it, either...years ago, yesterday?



Okay...what do you believe? Do you really believe you have done or do that which you do NOT want to do? If you are looking at an immediate payoff...say, you hate sailing...and you see where you love even more than the discomfort it, the time with your children or husband, then you have found your higher payoff. You might well go sailing, eh? Even become enthusiastic--relishing the shared experience over time...as you figure out why you didn't like it in the first place and brainstorming ways to like it...dramamine, sunscreen, speedboats as a compromise...something where you not only begin to see their enjoyment...it becomes your own, with that very real higher payoff.

I have to mind my own fears...they are mine...doesn't even mean they are coming from the POJA subject...have to find out if my inherited attitude towards spending money is overlap from childhood or previous experiences...or really from our current fiscal needs and goals. I got enough to mind...easy to distract with thinking the shortcut of just making my DH happy now and resenting him later is worth it.

I've found that it never is...my DH does not WANT me to ever do, or agree to, that which I will resent. Takes the joy out of his enthusiasm. He isn't enthusiastic about my resentment...and I'm not about his...


It used to pinned at the top of the Just Found Out forum...

Love Busters (LBs) are AO's (angry outbursts), DJs (disrespectful judgments), SDs (selfish demands), Lying, and IBs (independent behaviors).

Emotional Needs (ENs) Admiration, Conversation, Family Commitment (FC), Domestic Support (DS), Sexual Fulfillment (SF), Affection, Financial Security (FS), Attractive Spouse (AS), Recreational Companionship (RC)...you get the idea.


LOL...I have no idea because I now can't see the context, or remember it, from my reply screen. I'm sorry. That was an embarrassed laugh, btw.

(LA asked: Are you a perfectionist, Amor?) and you (Amoret) answered: Yes, when it comes to being married. I want to be really good at this.

You didn't really answer my question...did you? In your life, is your goal to do the best you can at all times...or to do it perfectly? What are you sharing with me here in your answer?


Would you do me a favor and rewrite the whole quote above as a series of "I" statements..."I believe" "I feel" "I think"?

Sounds like you've had this script before you ever met your FWH...would you consider that one for a moment?

He does not "read" others...would you stop and consider that to be an act of respect (even if it isn't) because "reading" others is full of false intimacy and DJs? That hard to distract...from what? Distracting himself? Or the task at hand? What if he is a very real friend to you and your kids...because he doesn't mindread, emotionally read...makes no assumptions...respect what you say you're feeling, etc., as your truth, (there's that your stuff), and fulfills his human mandate...knowing and being known?

What if he sacrifices greatly to live with a woman who lives in constant judgment through comparison, measurement, assumptions, and believes it is compassionate, empathetic, connecting?

There's a balance here I'm asking you to consider...nothing to an extreme...when we see someone crying, we will hold and ask...not assume. You may be saying your FWH won't hold a crying child...maybe not ask?


Have you read up on Narcissism? Where it begins and how? I remember a poster IAgree here on MB either linked or cut and paste an article that shocked me--for that label gets slapped on a lot of folks...compartmentalizing...instead respecting they are whole, separate, complete people, too...made from God's hands...and God didn't make no junk, no time.

See, pleasers (those who sacrifice, subjugate who they are for a self-image to earn love) are what creates the Narcissist. Living through others to get to themselves...and not getting there.

Not what I thought or had heard...not the same from the myth, either.

I don't do the labels because when I asked our MC if WH was one, he said, "Why on earth would you ask? If I say yes, will you choose to no longer love him? You can do that without a label, can't you?"

Again...any time we predicate our actions based on a POSSIBLE outcome, we betray ourselves...and get to blame the outcome for our choices.


Here's what I wrote after you related your story above..."Wow...what a great realization...now keep going with it--what was your false payoff in believing those those DJs?" I had to go up and cut and paste it here...'cuz you rock!! You readily identified your false payoff...when we base our beliefs on what others think, we annihilate ourselves. By you believing your inherited script (someone taught you this was love, exampled it), you say you could then see yourself as good, patient, forgiving, loving, likeable (only in reflection to him)...which says, "I'm not this unless you are that." No wonder we get stuck in patterns, eh? Trace your feelings...see where you already were, all along, no matter what he did/said/thought/felt/believed...you are and he is...you are equals in every way, made from the same hands, of the same stuff--love. You choose to forgive, to love, to act patiently (even when you experience yourself as impatient), to hold yourself to acting from your own code, which builds REAL self-respect and self-esteem (even if you do it when no one is looking); and the false payoffs, the hurtful beliefs which attack you, coming from you, about you...stop.

Give a lot of tears of sadness and healing for having done that to yourself for decades, 'k? You were always whole and complete. You had these coping skills you chose to do that kept you from knowing and acting from that knowledge. Welcome home, Amor.

You fear being selfish...so much so, you didn't center yourself in your own power and limits...you erased yourself except as a reflection...act to self-center...your real fear is being self-absorbed. Your acts from love preclude you from only thinking of yourself...when you put your marriage first, you ARE half of the top priority...there's your half, his half and the marriage.

Include yourself. Won't make you selfish bad or wrong. Does NOT make him that way. We all have a Giver and a Taker...for a very healthy purpose...we are not all one or the other...feed them in balance to BE in balance in your life.


Hey, what if you just wanted to serve your self-image, not your true self...which is sufficient as it is, at all times...would that have been good for parenting a fosterchild? Would it have helped the environment more? What if you will use anyone, anytime, to avoid conflict, to avoid what you fear...what rattles your bones? Does that make you bad? Nope. Makes you a CA (conflict avoider) which is great to know...and signals where you act from fear instead of love.

I have no doubt you WANT to act from love instead of fear. You love to love and feel love. I can tell.

Thought of a question...why would it be unreasonable to not be in touch with your own wants and enthusiasm if you've spent a long time focused on HIS wants and enthusiasm? And since you've abandoned yourself so often, you do often feel abandoned?

Would you consider you're hard to distract from focusing on FWH?

Btw, that's why I went to Alanon...because my DH had his addictions...and I was addicted to him. No shaming you here...I've lived it. We have our own disease...control...and you really nailed so well our false payoffs--which actually get in the way of us feeling incredibly loved...because we are.


I hear you saying "What if he ISN'T the problem in my marriage?" Was that close? You have your challenges and he has his...and both of you were attracted to each other BECAUSE of this stuff...and yes, it can also end you. And you can also heal together, fulfill that attraction promise, side by side...that's another option. You may have made a mess...you aren't one.

You aren't broken. Nor is your FWH.

In your awareness, you sure can experience life as if you are or he is--choose to know neither of you are, 'k?


When we have those great "come to Jesus" times of realization with ourselves...grasp that entirely new perspective...we can slip...hold on, Amor...hold it and see how very much those false payoffs ARE fantasy...and it's REALITY where the party is at, 'k?

Respect when your FWH says he is fine with something...I don't mean admire...accept he is able, he chooses...and if he chooses to do that which he will resent, then that's his, 'k?

I think a bit of projection might go on...because you have a history of choosing to do that which you will resent...you'll distrust his choices...you didn't really trust yours, did you, now in hindsight?

We learn this stuff when we're ready, open, and usually, when our coping skills run out of gas...we learn living skills...and how to thrive...instead of survive. Welcome, marvelous Amor!

Does Amoret mean "little love"? Or like my Texan father used to joke, "Amoret yet?" (Okay, he didn't used to say that...but close...Y'all Et Yet?"

LA

Wow, that was really helpful, what you said about "sacrifice," LA. Thanks.

And the acronym list is still there, where you said it was. Thanks for that, too.

You say, Oh, yes. My mother was bipolar. It was very scary for me when she was upset. I wanted very, very much for her to be OK with me (somehow thinking if she was OK with me, she'd be OK, period). It did not work--she took her own life when I was 10.

But that did not stop me looking for other people whose needs would be tough to meet--people to understand and make things OK for. (I resist the temptation of multiplying examples.)

You ask,
Hey, whose side are you on, anyway? I hasten to clarify that he does a lot of mind-reading (he's just wrong when he does it, since the only mind he seems to have access to is his own), makes lots of assumptions, does not always respect what I say I'm feeling, etc., etc. (AND I would like some credit here for not putting in lots of damning examples of what I mean.)

OK, OK. I'll behave. You see, I have to keep disciplining myself NOT to presume that the purpose (as well as the starting and ending point) of ANY analysis of my marriage is to cast new light on the glories of my amazing perfection as wife. Sorry. Bear with me.

I'll look up IAgree's thing on narcissism.

You ask,
No.


Yes. Exactly. Or even, what if he ISN'T the problem with my life?" When I got to the point of thinking "What a GREAT LIFE I could have without this <blank>," then I gave myself a reality check: "Yeah, right. I don't think Amoret would really become a foster parent [or whatever] if she had the chance--I think she just wanted to crown herself the queen of loving hearts and then make it her husband's 'fault' that she never actually did this hard thing."

That was when I burst into tears and sobbed, "What if I'm not a good person after all, just really messed up???"

This insight of yours is really insightful. I've known for a long time that my feelings and reactions are not as available to me as many people's are to them. When he told me about his infidelity, I knew (and told him) it would take a few days to sink in emotionally, and I wouldn't know how I felt for a while. I am intrigued by your analysis of that quality, and I'm going to live with it a while to see if it fits.

Thanks! I am sure getting a lot out of this. Have a good day,

Amoret

I laughed seriously out loud when I read this...what a great sense of humor.

I think you see very well you may draw lines around what are not boundaries (taking sides)...would you consider it's your craving to hold yourself to boundaries around you? Like a signal, a substitute?

I'm on the side of your marriage.

I found your other thread and response in the other forum. Whoa. I'll reply to that one over there...and focus here on how we get in our way of feeling enthusaistic, 'k?

You hold yourself to big boundaries really well...like fidelity. I think it's these finer lines you're looking for now...and the easiest way to see them in yourself is through your H. BTDT. I get it.

So make a list of what ticks you off...hits your nerve (even your last one) in others, including H...write them down in a list...and then see where they are in you. Let me know and I'll give you the next step. Show you that your H is good for something!

LOL


Great insight and understanding...you can love that little girl, who you were then, and see where her reasoning was wishful...you wished you her to be OK with you so she'd be OK and then you'd be OK, too, correct? And in many examples you didn't share, exhibiting fine control IMO, you saw the same thing...and now see how reasonable it is for you to have found just what you wanted in FWH when you met and married...so you don't think your picker is broken, do you?

Would you share your thoughts on why you think people mindread? Where it comes from, what the payoff is? We don't do anything without a payoff...trick is to see a real one from a false payoff.

Once we see the difference, we can change our behavior without only using brute force on ourselves. When the payoff isn't there and we can see it was false all along, well, we don't want it anymore.

What if you've been in pursuit of far more than OK? What if your attraction to people who seem to have difficult ENs to meet would make you special, prized, protected, cherished...too valuable to be left?

What if your penchant for seeing yourself in a better light (like with the dreams-but-FWH-gets-in-my-way) is really a signal that your self is hurting from not being seen for ALREADY being that good, that wonderful...for already being special, complete?

Won't change what others choose to do (because we really do make our choices from our own stuff...not really about others, though it can seem like t)...they may leave, they may stay, they may come and go...what it will do is change your experience of your life.


For the record...I don't like your FWH better than you. I like you both equally. And you don't have control over that...nor does he. LOL

Now...here's part of that list...seems to me you can write down DJs (assumptions...and includes labelling, name-calling). I'm not sure what you mean by he does not always (what do you do "always", really?)...respect what you say you feel...is the etc...feel, believe, perceive, view? What does respect mean to you?

Yes, kudos on choosing not to dwell in the damning list. Oh, wait...Now I asked you to do that. LOL. We're gonna process, though, not dwell, 'k?

(Sometimes our loops, those patterns we go round and round in are because we're dwelling and not processing our grief, our stuff...the loop is partly a signal you WANT to process the experience and you're stuck.)

Would you consider putting your infidelity timeline into your sigline section? How long married, DDay(s)...it would help me keep straight on where I am and who I'm talking to. I suddenly ramped up my posting lately and now I have overlap over who I'm posting to...which is why I went, "Huh? Wha?" in my previous post. Helps me to know where you might be in personal and marital recovery timelines, too. Might affect your enthusiasm, too.

Are you ready for the spotlight of glory, revealing to one and all your maginificence? You might want to take some deep breaths...because who you are truly does shine...as human being, not a human doing.

LA

Hi, LA. You ask,
OK, but even this I need help with. Let me try translating yours to see if I'm getting this right:


Please get ready to take offense at some really bizarre mistakes!

So you are a "formerly wayward wife" in your "previous marriage". ???

Now I get really lost. You are a "former other woman," a "mother of other child" ??? You are 46 years old.

Your "formerly wayward husband" is also 46.
You have "three sons," ages 23, 22 (your step-son--husband's from a previous marriage), and 18.

You made a commitment to your marriage on December 15, 2004.

You went to "marriage counseling" and "individual counseling" between October 2004 and July of 2006.

And you are "In Recovery and so grateful for our Marriage."

And now for me. If you would be so kind, you can tell me if this is right before I put it in my "sigline section":

me FS - 49
FWH - 54
1 D, 22; 2 S, 19 & 17
M 12/19/82
FWH's PAs - Fall 03 - 6/24/07
D-Day - 6/29/07
MC/IC 7/07 - 4/08

Thank you!

Looks great to me...the DD22 would work...she's your Dear Daughter age 22 that way; wow...we got kids near the same ages, eh? Only you got a girl. Dang it.


LA