I am working on a post for my whole history but it is so long I thought I would go ahead and post some questions I have since I feel like I just "officially" found out.

Brief history first: me BW 32 him WH 29 married 8 years this October, together almost 10 1/2 total, friends and dating on and off for 14 years. No children. He is a much higher earner than me because we agreed I'd be a SAHM when the time came (which I thought would be this year!) He first tells me he wants to not come home to go "think" 1/31/08 and I'm in complete shock but he does come home after a long rant from me. Doesn't come home for one night 2/6/08 but tells me via email, leaves again 2/13-19/08 he didn’t even contact me at first and I even filed a police report. Has left the house again as of 4/20/08 told me via email I finally got more of a ILYBNILWY line.

His work provides him with paid for car and gas card, credit card, computer (only accessible with SecurID token)and his job is driving around to 50 different customers basically in a 50 mile radius of our home (i.e. schedule is crazy and unpredictable). So it has been almost impossible for me to snoop. I am the "financial keeper of the house" and I can find no money "missing" or anything like that. Up until him leaving I also cannot account for any missing time that would draw suspicion.

He does have a stressful job and has really been achieving and succeeding. And when this all started happening my question is affair or mental breakdown (or both!)? But I had a very hard time trying to find out on my own. So now that he seems gone for good I have retained a PI, he followed him to an apartment and we have confirmed the one woman I could imagine (or at least my family imagined) lives there. In fact, she moved to that apartment in April. This woman is part of a couple that we used to hang out with (her H was a customer of my H). But this OW left her H Feb 2006, they are officially divorced. We hung out with neither of them from thenceforth and H even lost OW exH’s company as a customer. I don’t know if this is an A that started back then (2005 or 2006) or maybe its been an EA for all that time or maybe they just reconnected recently (if this is the case maybe she doesn't even know he's still married). I don’t know how I can get the truth.

I guess I will insert my opinion of OW. She's not a loser or anything. When she left her H I thought it kind of made sense because they did not seem compatible at all to me. She's a fun person but I think more child-like/immature than me. She had a good job, was ambitious to move up etc. Had lots of friends, active social life (which I don't think her exH participated in or wanted to). Supposedly a good Lutheran (went to church but maybe that was more her exH, I don't really know). She's not a skanky person (only if she has knowingly engaged with my H knowing he is married, then she's trash of course).

Now, to the state of our marriage. I think everything’s been great so far. We’ve been through tough times (my father sick/death, my grandma’s death (very important person to both of us-she basically paid for his college, etc.), his family drama, sexual problems of our own etc.). I had low self-esteem and probably depression over things up until Jan 06 in which I will say I began a Plan A lifestyle (didn’t know it then but that’s what I’d call it since finding MB). Started working out (have lost 40 lbs. since I started), really turned to the Lord to lift my depression and bad feelings, and have grown in confidence, finally learned to O which surely was missing from H SF, etc. H and I never argued and other than what I assume is H’s stress over job everything is great. Obviously, not so for him but I have no idea what EN I was not meeting for him. I have racked my brain and come up with nothing, not sure what LB’s I really engaged in either.

Now to current situation, he has offered little to no explanation for his actions, has not accused me of falling short in any way, only that he feels like we are “friends”. We’ve always had great conversation, enjoyed recreation together, he provides great FS and I have always given him admiration for that, if he had a problem with level of SF he didn’t tell me (other than I know he would like more oral which I’m not crazy about and I have TMJ so it can even be painful for me, the fact he still wanted it was about the only thing in our life that made me think he was selfish/unfair), basically we are completely compatible. I probably sacrificed my needs more in the last year than he but I didn’t resent because I felt he had a need to “prove himself” in his career. As I said, he accomplished that and this year I thought we’d turn to starting a family, etc. getting back to all that's good.

So to my questions: Obviously I need to expose, I’m trying to decide who to and how. Plus I want to confront him that I know but as you can see I don’t have in your face kind of proof other than knowing he’s staying at the same apartment building that she lives at (my PI couldn’t see what specific apartment he entered). Is this good enough proof to confront? I mean he’s already moved out of our home (but took nothing with him but a few clothes). We do speak some, I’ve stopped asked “what’s wrong, are you coming back, etc.” and we just have pleasant conversation. He’s come over and fixed a few things on the house. I have a feeling in this case that I need to confront, expose and immediately Plan B, am I right?

I have read HNHN, and LB – then I gave those books to him several weeks ago. I just ordered SAA. I had a consult with a lawyer to see where I stand and if I’ve protected myself enough for the meantime which I have. If this leads to D because of our wage disparity he will lose a lot. Although since he's young, has established good career, is a man (sorry but I believe this) in the scheme of life he will probably lose nothing. Whereas I do not have an established good career (just a "job" that doesn't even provide benefits, I will have to seek new "real" employment and probably move too cause I don't really like where we live and would move closer to either my mother or sister), I'm older than he, my biological clock is ticking (right now I can't imagine trusting someone (if this ends in D) or maybe even him if we can recover before I am unable/too risky to have kids), and more the way I see it.

What’s the learned opinion for my situation? I would like at least the chance to recover my M. And for the record, I’m pretty ok mentally, still working out, taking care of myself, etc. I don’t feel terribly overwhelmed or depressed because I have very strong faith the Lord will take care of me. I don’t have any friends only my sister and mother. I never was one to have girlfriends and it certainly wouldn’t be right to have my male friends once I got married so its been difficult to make friends for me but it wasn’t that big of deal. That’s why H tried to meet like young married people through his work for us to hang out with since he meets so many people in a day. Guess that was a bad plan!

Thanks in advance!

Welcome to marriagebuilders. It sounds like you had a fairly good marriage before his affair. So I'm sure he will be back.

In the meantime, do a good Plan A, which is showing him what a great wife you could be, with no disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts.

It also includes exposure. So I would expose the affair to the OW's ex husband, your husband's parents, and your parents, and any friends that might have influence.

Does the OW have any children?

I'm not sure how to Plan A with him out of the house and like I said I have no idea what EN I was not meeting. I would say SF is the only thing and how can I do that when he is living with her/actively in the affair? During the time from 1/31 till 4/20 I actively tried to step up SF of course he left again 4/20. Plus for us to have contact generally I have to persue him.

I doubt OW exH will be influential but I have no problem exposing to him. He could probably give me info on her parents though which is probably more important. My mother and sister (and BIL) already know and are actually the ones that from the get-go said it would be this OW, apparently they saw something I didn't. Should I have them call him? I don't think he will pick up, he's acting very cowardly about all of this (and has even told me he's a coward). I'm afraid his parents might not care but I will expose anyway. I hate to bring hurt to older people but I think exposing to his grandpa (and to a lesser extent 2 gramma's) in particular is one of the most effective family people. I don't view his entire family as very "tight", I don't think between themselves they would not have as good of relationships as they do without my and my families influence over these many years of us being together.

I have no reason to believe OW has children (didn't with her exH) however I have a (so far unfounded) fear that if this has been a long term A she might be pregnant with H child. Just a bad gut feeling.

Does everyone feel I have enough evidence to confront and expose? Don't I confront first, then expose?

UAH,

Welcome to MB...sounds like you have done your research here!

I'm a little vague on if he's having an A...though I agree, there are a lot of red flags.

You hired a PI after he moved out (not when he was moving out and in prior to this) in April...and the PI only followed him to an apartment building, is that correct?

The PI did not see him with the OW, correct?

And you don't know where H is living right now, or did the PI confirm him renting an apartment in this same building that the suspected OW is confirmed to live in?

This is an emotionally chaotic time...getting clarity was my saving grace...had to make it my goal.

Intuitions and suppositions may prove correct in the outcome...you want the truth confirmed so you can make a real plan, I believe.

LA

Hopefully to clarify this is what I know. I hired PI just 6/4/08, he could find nothing by his "methods" on H's whereabouts (no proof he's living/renting anywhere else) and since its not like there's a regular workplace he could be followed from, I set up a meeting with H so PI could tail him. H told me during "date" he was going to workout with one of his male friends (I know this man too) afterwards (gym is right down the street). PI followed him afterwards directly to this apartment 20 miles away. I new this OW lived in this area and PI confirmed she lived in that apartment building but no, he didn't see them together. This is a big town so that's too much of a coincidence for me. Plus the next day H texted me, I casually asked how workout was and he continued the lie. Didn't even make an excuse like well "friend wound up not being able to come" or something like that.

H has told me and this same male friend (I don't know if this friend covers for him or not, I don't really trust him) that he is staying at "extended stay hotels" and paying cash. He takes about $200/wk from our account. He even charged one week on our joint cc back at the beginning after I drug it out of him where he was staying. The cc receipt says he was checked in 4/28-5/5, I obtained this info from him 4/29 and saw the charge 4/30 so I can't figure if that was all a "set-up" or not.

I'm waiting for PI's official report, we've only talked by phone and I'm not the world's best "listening learner". But even though I know this must be the truth, it isn't the most solid evidence ever. I don't know if I can get better evidence though.

Yes I agree, I am an information junkie but it is so difficult to obtain. I don't know if just knowing this info when confronted, H might crumble or deny. Don't know if others I need to expose to would "respect" this amount of evidence or not?

No wonder I was vague...

With the idea of the big city, again, it's not proof but pretty solid intuition that they end up in the same apartment building.

Still, no confirmation.

Good to know he hasn't given you a final report.

Maybe a better PI?

How can your H live without living anywhere really? Why don't you and your friends tail him?

Probably a lousy idea coming from my own wishfulness.

I would get creative in nailing this down...such as call his work and say you need an address for your H to send legal papers to by mail. You didn't have access to his work laptop your whole marriage? I ask because this really smacks of a double life thing...well hidden from long practice. I think you picked up on that, too.

I would talk to suspected OW's xH and get whatever information you can...what he thought and experienced back in 2006, his reasons and current info. Maybe he can give you names of her other friends you can follow from there.

You can go to the extended stay place and ask them about the week he was there...if it was single or double occupancy...of if he used his card at all.

I relate to your information junkie (how 'bout research fiend?) because that's what I used as a distraction-non-distraction, too. Gather more info, more knowledge, figure it all out...yet, facing exactly what really is at the same time. (Maybe I didn't great at that, I don't know.)

Ascertaining the truth is really important...takes whatever power you may have given away to to him that's really yours.

Can you put a GPS device on his company car? Did you read "Spying 101" thread?

Have you had more "dates" with him? You know, you can be bold...I asked my WH for "equal time"...that he spend as much time with me as with OW. I don't advise it...I do advise saying "Hello, husband" "This is your wife" over and over again.

Then again, I'm really annoying.

LA

LOL!!!!!!!!
Your not annoying, you are just creative!

I need to talk to my PI more to see if he thinks he can get anything more solid. And also note, I have NOT confronted my H, I do not believe he thinks I think he is in an A.

He never withheld me looking at his laptop at anytime, I was in his office looking over his shoulder all the time (not because I was suspicious, just hanging out cause he was always working). I have always felt that because his job provided him with so many things (company car, cc, laptop, etc.) he did have sorta a seperate life in a way. And since I handle finances because I'm more interested/capable and since we are young and childless really our finances is our common bond/life right now. I tried to get him to participate more with decisions and input there but he never really did. He trusts me to do everything the best way possible and I don't think he feels he could make any meaningful contribution. But more and more recently I was really trying to draw him into it, because otherwise why does he work so hard to make so much money if not to enjoy it, plan with it to make an amazing future. Now it seems to me he's completely left all that behind.

I really want to move to confrontation then exposure but really need the opinions of the experts here if I've got enough evidence to confront.

Well, it wasn't only the laptop...but thank you for clarifying.

What about his family...siblings, parents, cousins? Anyone he is/was close to you could call?

I appreciate you holding off on confronting/exposing until you have evidence...

and there are well-seasoned folks here far better than I am at the snooping part (I did the trash/searching the car and room routine).

Will you do a "call out" thread on the forum Infidelity: General Questions II? In the title say something like...need help with proof of A...best spies or something?

I think you can make the title better than I can. I'm just stumped with how he can do this...only pulling out cash...leaving no money trail, no mail trail...and I read detective fiction (so I'm an expert, can you tell?).

What do you think of talking to the people I mentioned before?

Do you guys talk on the phone often? I'm not understanding how you've been communicating for the past three months...I want to get an accurate picture.

LA

As far as snooping that's why I feel my only chance was a PI and at least we found out where he's staying.

As to finding an ally that's still involved in his world? That's tough, at one time, before I was sure there was an A and I was still worried he was mentally unstable maybe; his phone did not work for 5 days-went straight to VM and said VM was full. This is HIGHLY unusual, this is his work phone, this is where customers call him and I think his work/customers are very important to him (he would never betray them!). He told me via email he was sick (but not to any great extent) but then I didn't hear anything for another 2 days. During this time one of his parents emailed "us" (they couldn't get through to him, was he ok?, I guess it was his mom cause would dad sign at email "mom and dad"?) but he no longer had access to that email. I wrote them that I was very worried about him, I know people don't like to get in the middle of marriage issues, explained when he had left the home and did so with no explanation, etc. basically just facts. I asked if they had advice I would love to hear it. They never wrote or called. If his father got that email I could see him just deleting it and not even telling MIL. So I can't know who saw it but whoever did/knows about it maybe made their position clear? For the record - DJ alert - his father is controlling and quite misogynistic in my opinion but that's another story. As to other people who are local, I really don't think I can trust them. Some of our best friends (his best men at our wedding) live out of town and are single fellas. I think he's somewhat withdrawn from them too because they would not approve I don't think. They know somethings up, I might call one or both of them again but I'm not sure what they can do.

We are mostly communicating by texting (I do thru yahoo email I'm not a huge cellphone user) and in the past email. Up until 5/27 I admit I never kept the communication without trying to ask questions, etc. but since then I've kept it casual no R talk. So far he still meets me "for a drink" when I ask or if somethings gone wrong at the house he's come over and fixed things (sometimes when I'm there, sometimes not). I initiate the contact if I don't I don't think he would contact me. I've gone as long as a week (back at the beginning and again 5/27-6/2). He's been a little better lately, as again I finally control myself after 5/27 and we just have chit-chat no R questions. For instance we'd had the meeting 6/9, he actually texted me 6/10 (just chit chat) but then nothing yesterday and I texted him today (trying to slip in some Plan A (if I'm correct and admiration is one of his top ENs)). I wonder if he would actually "do" something with me if I asked - like go bike riding, hiking or something like we used to do. Would this be a good idea?

I feel very impatient (which is so totally not my nature). I just want to do the right thing for the highest chance of success though!

Are you saying the PI confirmed a physical address where H is staying?

I would think the PI could worm confirmation out of the rental agency or apt manager. Is that just fantasy on my part?

Did he put in a change of address with your bank? (I know you handle the finances, however, have you checked to see if he changed anything on his life insurance--double check beneficiaries?--car insurance, bank, doctor's bills?)

Might be I'm wanting you to nail down something in writing for his location because I'm really wanting him to be understood.

Feel free to ignore me on that. Again, I'm flailing.

Can you call and talk to his folks? No bros or sisters?

You could stay on the track that you're really concerned about his mental health...did he do this before in his life that they know of?

The actions you take are yours...let go the outcome. You didn't control it anyway. Don't stepover something you might do because you talked yourself into knowing the outcome ahead of time. Might be why you're experiencing impatience right now...when we hit crisis, we want to speed up the fix really fast...we believe then we will stop hurting and fearing.

Normally, sounds like to me, you act from love and live in it. It's very different living in the fear. You can act, anyway.

LA

Well, yes PI witnessed him go "home" (I really hate to say that) to this address/building in an apartment complex. I gave PI as much info as I knew about possible OW and that is where by "documents" he found out she lives. Again, PI did not see them together and I guess due to building configuration cannot confirm exactly which apt. H entered.

As to him changing anything, no I'm sure he has not (any financial instituition sends a confirmation to the old address, etc.) Legally no one would change things on life ins. etc. you must have a waiver from the spouse to remove the spouse as 100% primary beneficiary. A few times that he's said much of anything about this "situation" he's said "I don't want you to think I'm changing anything/taking anything".

I will give an example: Week of May 5th (my bday btw) we have a "dinner" that Tues. even before we even settle in he says he'd like to have breakfast Thurs. morning. Says he'll call that Weds. to set it up. Makes mention at dinner he'd like to take his motorcycle with him Thurs. (Thurs. he is leaving to pick up his grandparents from airport midway between where we live and where his parents are) that Sat (5/10) was his youngest sisters graduation from college. He has an old motorcycle buddy (used to live in our area) down in that area he's going to hang out with after his S's graduation. I told him I can't support him just taking his "toys" and acting like nothings wrong, that it wasn't fair. He didn't say anything more that night. But at Thurs. morning breakfast he says he's taking motorcylce (I go ballistic of course cause now I feel like he was just manipulating me all week, meeting, calling, etc.) He claims he wanted to tell me and to let me scream at him that it was wrong etc. because I deserved to express myself but he also says I didn't want you to come home and it just be gone and you think that I was "taking" it. I'll bring everything back when I get home (and he did). So for this family event (SIL graduation) much of the family is aware I'm not there, this is highly unusual but I don't know what lies he may or may not have told them about my absence. I know at least one of his parents know the truth (if they believe me) because that email was a week after this situation.

I'll also mention his two younger sisters one 22 and one 26 are -DJ alert- young and stupid, I don't believe H respects them as they make foolish choices in life - we've tried to help both of them be smarter many times (but mostly to no avail). The youngest one just moved to CA. There have been many times in his immediate family where one or more parties have REALLY not gotten along with one another. Currently FIL is not speaking to his own mother - lord knows over what. Again, why I'm not sure his family can be counted on for "family values".

His F physically abused my H as a kid. My H left their home at one time during HS, lived with his employer/friend for almost a year. Even stayed with my family for 2 weeks during this time. H's and FIL relationship fine now (again I'll say partly/mostly due to my influence/family values/you can't take it back once someone's dead attitude). I just don't know about his family.

Just a curiosity...why did you not attend the S's graduation with him?

Plan A, btw, involves a lot of time spent together...and you asked about fun time (that's what I heard) and yes, yes, yes...if RC (recreational companionship) is one of his ENs, then by all means, do it.

Even if it isn't, you can suggest...because when we play together, we remember we are allies. I don't know that he thinks of you as an enemy (in marriage, we go in and out of that state of mind)...maybe your pain, anger, judgment might be.

I dunno.

I'm still stunned at the lack of info on this.

Did you see the thread on GPS tracking? You could meet him for dinner, have him pick you up in his company car and slip it under the passenger seat.

Might not be a great idea given he travels around for work all day. I just don't know.

There were no prior signs that come to mind about a double-life? I have no experience...I sure hope someone else steps in...

I still don't see you mention talking to suspected OW's xH...are you discounting it as fruitless? I get that you are doing that to most of the folks...and when I used to do that, I was afraid...and by trying to forsee the outcome, talked myself out of it.

You sound amazingly strong and brave...so I'm sharing my reasoning...not telling you yours. When in crisis, a lot of our previous judgments are shaken up...because this is what our spouses, often, we didn't see it coming, are doing...they are really doing this...

I think it was Longhorn who was great at figuring this stuff out (you can search by person here, not by subject yet...we just had a board upgrade and they're working out the burps from it)...who else...I can't think.

Please look up Mark1952...he has great threads (you might already have seen them).

And I just remembered why I was asking for documentation on addresses for suspected OW and WH...to see if they are listed at the SAME apartment or separate ones.

If it's a large complex, maybe seeing on the GPS him parked near her apt and away from his (if they really are separate addresses) might be confirmation of the A?

I'm sorry my brain is lagging behind my desire to help.

I'm going to bump your call out thread, 'k?

And I'm sorry I doubt your PI...because he may have assumed W?H went "home" and we're missing someone else in the apartment complex you don't know about.

Why not get a braver, craftier PI who takes pictures like they do in the movies without getting caught or rousing suspicions?

Sorry...not being sarcastic...just really wishful. I had a lot more faith in PI's, though no experience.

Have you run your H through Intellius, btw?

LA

I did not go to S's graduation because I was not "invited" - H was already out of the house, I guess I should have just showed up and crashed it. At that point I guess I was still too cowardly and was not convinced there was OW.

I'm fine to do whatever. I want to try to follow the MB way the most exactly as I can to ensure the best chance for success. So I guess I'm confused, I thought I was supposed to confront my H when I had enough evidence (especially since my case he is out of the house) first. That's what I'm not sure of if I have enough evidence to confront, then I thought I exposed. I just want to make sure before I start talking to people I am first doing it in the right order and second not showing my hand before I have enough evidence.

As to contacting some of the people I've mentioned, like OWexH I have to "find" him too. I haven't seen him in over 2 years, etc.

PI's system shows only OUR house as H address. I think he is just crashing in OW's apt., and indeed if that's where he goes "home" to everynight I don't see point of GPS tracking. Am I missing something?

I don't know about Intellius much I always worry those types of things will give you old/erroneous information. I'm getting peeved at my PI because he has still not forwarded me his report - I paid good money for that info, its not his problem to worry about what I do with it (which is why I think he's sluggish getting it to me). I have no desire to go "key" my H's car or anything like that, but I feel like confronting with "I know you are staying at OW's apt in this town" is not very factual. I need to say 123 Main Street. That goes for talking to other people too not just confronting my H I would guess.

Again, please clarify: aren't I suppose to confront H first because I assume 1 of 3 things will happen: he'll claim he loves her and its just over between us, he'll crumble and come home (within my boundries for recovery) or he'll say absolutely nothing (which is the response I get for everything else "meaningful" I have tried to ask him).

UAH,

I thought about you all the way home from work. I want to say you're amazing to me, very brave, not a shred of cowardice in you...and that's not to soothe you or make you feel anything.

It's my perception of you. In your last post I got to see a crack in you (again, just my opinion) and I felt your anger, your pain.

Doesn't change how I perceive you--you're still incredible in your responses for what is happening in your life.

I'm not coddling you in any way. I feel inadequate in aiding you; just in it with you, 'k?

Getting solid evidence (and now that I'm clear on what you really think...that he's living with OW) and stating what you know as fact is key, IMO. It's not confrontation. It's not your attempt to manipulate him into telling you the truth (which is often a fruitless and distracting venture). Then you expose and you do not tell him you are going to expose.

Takes planning...and you seem to excel at planning. I found a lot of relief in minding details...a healthier distraction than the time I used to take in my constant attempts to manipulate responses from my DH, btw.

I think the key is moderation...staying aware of what gives you relief, not doing it to an extreme...some can fall stuck in preparing their plan and not executing it (they lose the false comfort in the distraction); others execute too quickly, convinced they are being reasonable and prudent when their pain is so high they are really trying to end it as fast as possible.

I don't think you'll get stuck or jump the gun. I think you are sincerely craving the solid evidence, too.

I'm not questioning your actions...not with S's graduation or the PI...I really was curious about YOU, how and what you think.

I wondered if the standard graduation invitation had come to your house, addressed to both of you...or if it was assumed...so many variables...of if you took his abandonment as removal from his family...getting to know you, you might say...not judging you.

I lived in a lot of assumptions my whole life...and it's kind of like a fantasy life...doesn't have much reality in it...because what we assume, we experience as our reality. So my filter is from there...like a dectector that's always on. And I ask questions so I don't assume about others' assumptions.

Dizzy yet?

I admire you for what you are doing, how you are doing it and the intense care and love which shines through.

I took your frustration into me and drove home with it...and I do think the PI's report, in hand, will be important for you. You've got that fabulous sleuth gene.

Now, would you call the Harleys for counseling? They are plan people...believe in action and I'm sure Steve Harley could do right now what I don't seem to be able to do...figure out a good plan with steps you can take, the Harley way.

There's a coaching center link at the top of your screen.

Going for clarity...guess it makes sense to employ a different professional, also, in your quest for truth. This family has many decades experience in all kinds of infidelity and possible marital issues. I think they can help you right away.

Will you keep posting? What you go through, how you share your journey, helps others, like me. Lots of folks don't post, they read and research...they lurk. Others come and go. You never know when what you've done, thought, felt, believed or perceived will help them, too.

I sure appreciate you being here. You seem proactive...which is just feeling your fear and pain and acting anyway.

Know your wonderfulness, 'k? It's yours. It's real.

LA

I found it!

Spying 101 by Justkeeptrying

I hope it helps.

Whew.

LA

LA
I know you are not judging me or anything. I wish I had been more aggressive from the 1st sign of trouble but the shock and fear and trust of him controlled me for too long. I really hate lies, always have from the smallest to the biggest. I try to believe in most people but I really don't trust them. This world we live in has made lies much more acceptable and easy than the truth. My H was the only person I really trusted so yes, I am hurt beyond what I could have imagined and although I am greatful for my life and know I have much more than many people it has not been without strife (and strife I think that's a bit uncommon even). I knew that all that was behind me and H now and I was so excited at the beginning of this year to take our life to the next level and really get to enjoy everything we are so blessed with.

So I really didn't see this coming, and I've looked back trying to see what I was missing and I know that in that moment there was nothing I could have seen, everything was plausible. But of course knowing what I feel I know now I can look back and see so many places that if the lies go and go anything could be possible. Unfortunately for me there is no "physical evidence" that would have tipped me off.

I know I don't deserve this. I know its not my fault. But I especially get "down" when I feel like the "world" is against me too. It was very hard for me to try and contact a PI - I did so near the beginning of May and they never called me back. When I mustered my strength again to contact them they were never there, etc. we never connected and that makes me feel like the "worlds" against me. I know practically just move on to someone else, but as you well know just be practical in this situation is not always easy. Then when I tried my current PI and he got right back to me and I had more information about the truth is less than a weeks time from starting with him but now he's withholding the report (I feel) so I have to go fight another battle just to get what I paid for! I mean, how do I not get down about that! Then I mustered the courage to meet with a lawyer (I think I called 5/27) had to wait a week for the appt. then they cancelled and pushed it back another week (I did go 6/10) but that kind of stuff just makes all the rest of this harder. I know my sister and mother want to support me and they will no matter what happens, but I know they think my H is jerk now and doesn't deserve me (and they are certainly right at the present moment) but I don't want to give up. The lawyer and PI think the same thing. So all the "physical" people who are around me can't give me an attitude that's helpful. And as much as I know I can't control my H actions apparently I can't control my PI's actions either!

Right now LA you are the only true support I have for what I'd like to do. I can't even to pick up other MB people on this thread. I appreciate your support and you are probably right about contacting the Harleys but I don't know if my pysche can take it if a consult is not scheduleable(?) with them for days and maybe even a week. And then if it gets cancelled or delayed again. I know its just practical things that happen sometimes but its very hard for me not to take that kind of stuff personally. I feel like every move I try to make is met with resistance (one reason for my name up a hill).

I've lurked here a long time myself. I've read many strings. I haven't seen anybody's story with an H who just walked out, will not talk/accuse me of shortcomings/etc. Never fought. H has not been angry (when he left 2/13 I filed a missing persons report he had to go clear with the police and me and his boss stayed on the phone 1/2 the night checking hospitals, etc.) How could someone not get angry over all that? See how I could believe he was just having a mental breakdown? I would love for my H to get angry with me. How can you fight for or against "nothing"? He's taken nothing with him, left his "toys" behind (motorcylce, boat, jetski, pool table), the dog, uses little to none of our money (really his money), still keeps depositing his paycheck (he outearns me by 3x), asks nothing of me, left his house with big yard, workshop (things he's said he always wanted), my cooking (I'm good and he likes to eat), and the list goes on. Who else has a post remotely like this? I know people in A's often wind up with people opposite than what you expect and granted I don't know her "that" well but I don't think she's so different from me but he certainly has left the "lifestyle" he claimed to want.

I just don't get it. Its frustrating and I wish venting made me feel better but it usually doesn't. I guess I have to go pray for some strength so I can go fight my d#$m PI for the info that I bought!

I really appreciate the support. I'll keep you posted.

UAH,

Good to know. I think you operate from reasonable trust, not blind trust. I think that was the difference in your marriage...you got to an unhealthy level of trust.

What do you think?

Hey, there are worse things.

What do you think of this theory; success is as stressful or even more stressful than failure. We can habituate ourselves to failure and experience daily (in tiny ways) so that changing that habit, coming into your own, you might say, could be a near-crisis level stress and not look one bit like it from the outside.

Being without strife doesn't teach us how we choose to respond to it...I'm thinking it's like an atrophied muscle...gonna hurt a lot when you use it again...responding from lack of experience?

Trick is to enjoy everything along the way...in some way.

I think your experience of the world being against you is understandable and not unusual. Your H was your world...there's that overlap...now that the worst possible happened, more will happen.

Be ready to be embraced...to know you're not alone...you are not abandoned, 'k?

I do NOT advise you move on to someone else...only if you want a grade repeat of same stuff different day. I believe there are important growth lessons here for you, as we all have in everything we face...and if you don't get what you can now, you'll be handed it later.

There are two recoveries possible...your personal recovery and marital recovery. One is solely within your control; the other, you're only half. What you're doing now is aiding your personal and marital recovery.

You go girl. My advice is to not persist though with PI firms who do not prize you as a customer. There are many out there...be sure to pay by credit card so you can appeal to your company and have the charges reversed when you are dissatisfied with the service. Then they will call you, 'k?

Oh...nevermind. LOL. You switched to someone else as PI and he didn't show the same signs of lassitude towards his work...and now, sort of what you experienced before.

That in itself could trigger you right back to the same issue...believing him to be a certain way based on his previous behavior and then him behaving differently, unexpectedly.

I think your expectations are adding to your pain.

Funnel your anger into fighting for the report. Feel and know your emotions, and don't react to them. You are in crisis, 'k? Gonna be a rollercoaster ride of emotions charged up from fear. You are doing great.

About that habitual failure...the daily stuff is failing our expectations and riling when others fail our expectations...that's what I mean about adding to your pain, 'k? We actually grieve (through the whole process) daily.

We grieve what occurs and what doesn't occur that we wanted to...how 'bout that?

Feel your sadness, frustration, anger, fear, pain...and trace each one to the belief in you it's coming from...I've found some odd ones in me...like "Why isn't everyone up in arms about this? This is my life. Why aren't they taking this as seriously as I am?" "Is God telling me he doesn't want this to work?" Each belief will give you a resulting emotion...to signal you what you're believing.

The result is you won't "get down" which is like being bogged down in your emotions...dwelling in them and reacting to them. Once you get what the signal means, they drop down as they monitor; stop spiking higher and higher to get your attention.

I'm seeing a lurching in your attention to details...and I think it's coming from giving yourself permission...I could be really off, as you know...see, your amazing with action, plans, reasoning out, tracking down, listening to your intuition...and yet slower with giving yourself permission to gather knowledge, talk to a lawyer, switch to another PI...and I'm wondering if it's symbols slowing those down.

Talking to a divorce lawyer to learn the legal process and options isn't treason to your union--you may feel like it is--give yourself permission for information right now and relieve yourself of your fear of making bad decisions which may break everything to bits...because you aren't that powerful, 'k?

I don't want you to give up...for your own personal recovery. I want to see you thriving in two years...full-wings and soaring.

I'm sure your mother and sister want that for you, too. Only difference is they want it yesterday for you.

LOL about not controlling PI's actions...sucks when we are paying the money, huh? Gives us leverage, not control. I hope you paid by credit card.

:::insert evil grin here complete with wiggly eyebrows:::

Here at MB we support you in fighting for your marriage, ascertaining truth, making and following plans...and I'm thinking you are almost ready for Plan B...and I wondered if you'd thought about an intermediary?

I don't understand why there aren't MB others here...I'm gonna trust God on this one, UAH...okay, after I yank back the portion of now doing a call out for you. LOL. I swear you're not alone...I'm with you...I'm just suckily inadequate, I think!!

I truly trust God works (shortened from God works in mysterious ways)...he just does.

So go ahead and call the Harleys but know this...they begin counseling early, early in the morning and are gone early as a result. And they are in Minnesota, so remember to calculate a time difference. When you call, tell them how you're really afraid of getting scheduled too far down the road or not called back...tell them you're in crisis right now and that's a really big fear of yours...

Then let go the outcome...nothing anyone says or does says a thing about your worth, your value or you, 'k? Expectations of failure, of rejection, of being pushed aside or not prioritized will give you that actual experience right now. Breathe. Check your beliefs. These folks really do care deeply. And they may not solve your problems...they may well add to the solutions, though.

Trust you are in great hands at all times...you are not abandoned, you are fully loved, and you are very important. It's true. I promise. Won't change what you are experiencing right now...sure will affect how you experience it.

TAKE it personally...it's about you, all the time. That's my motto. And then check it to see if it is about you. We may have resistance inside us for what we think we want most...so we see it as others resisting us, that friction...and it's a signal to look inside and check.

You may have promised yourself as a little girl that you would never, ever, no way put up with a spouse who lies, leaves, pretends to feel one way and acts another...do a little internal snooping and see if you have any of these (I'm sure you have your own) really old promises which may be tugging at you, asking, "Hey, what gives?"

As adults, we break many of the promises we made to ourselves like vows as children...we know humans do and don't do...our inner child says vows will keep you safe...contradictory beliefs at work...look for signals. That's you loving yourself.

I agree your circumstances are really rare...however, I have read of two cases in my time on MB...and I don't know how to find them for you. Seriously. I need that search feature for keywords to work...or wait for another MBer to pop their head in and say, "Here's the link."

Lack of conflict also means lack of connection. There is healthy connection in conflict...and I'm not condemning you guys for not fighting...just asking you to examine how connected were you...looking at the rules of care, protection, radical honesty and time.

And even then...NOT TO ASSIGN blame...for clarity only. Part of my spinning for you is having no hand-hold...and yes, I know you know As happen even in good marriages. I just don't think they happen in great ones following Harley's concepts.

That's just me. I might be dreamin', eh?

I gotta tell you how much I admire you for filing that missing person's report...consider yourself a great wife...(I sicked the cops on my DH pre-A when he wasn't home four hours after I expected him, prior to the age of cell phones, and turned out I hadn't been listening he told me he had to work in the field that night).

He crossed your boundary of care, consideration, honesty and respect. He lied by omission and continued to lie by omission. Yes, anger is called for, understandable and reasonable...it's a strong signal he crossed your boundary...you got that, right?

Is there a part of your anger that says, "I didn't deserve this" meaning you didn't earn his lies, deceit, inconsideration or disrespect?

You nailed the not connecting through conflict when you said


Exactly.

So you fight for your marriage. It's not nothing.

And know you will understand...and it won't come today. Takes more time...just know you will. You will get there.

And you won't go alone, 'k?

LA

Hey UAH, sorry you are here.

Just wanted to chime in on a couple things quickly after a quick perusal of your thread:

Contact suspected OW's Ex husband. Chances are you are right about who it is, chances are also good that the A caused thier divorce. Find out. My W conducted her A while I was looking for it. It turns out their time was thier lunch break. OM had an apartment close by. With your H's job and schedule, it would be very easy for him to hide an A, even if you were clued in and looking for it.

When H was unavailable for those 5 days and claimed to be sick, I'd bet he was on vacation with OW. Any chance you can find any evidence of air travel? Perhaps an air travel or credit card rewards program that you have access too? Sometimes the rewards are not tied to the credit card. For example, expedia has thier own rewards program independent of the credit card or airline. Just trying to help you think of ways to find some evidence. You might be able to prove he WASN'T sick by calling your doctor or pharmacy and asking for this year's reciepts. Tell them its so you can claim the medical expenses for reimbursement. They won't think twice about this request. It will not give you proof, but if H was ill for 5 days you'd think there would be a Dr's visit or a prescription, eh? Just another clue, but if you track down enough clues you'll find what you know is there. Took me 6 months. Didn't nail it until I talked to suspected OM's girlfriend in another state.

You may not have many people posting to you, but you've got LA's help, and I'd take one of her over 10 others at random any day of the week!

Be back later, the golf course calls!

Aside from the affair, of course, the one thing that stands out to me is that you've been together since he was 15 years old! IMO, that is VERY unusual for any guy to be ok with that. I see a 7-year-itch scenario. If you ever do get back together, this is the first thing I would target - seeing if he feels he never got to experience all the fun 'everyone else' gets.