Forgive me if I am asking questions that have already been answered.

Is his paycheck direct deposit or does he he actually make the deposit? Could he be depositing less than he actually makes to fund his "whatever" he has on the side.

If he is only keeping $200 a week, that may not even cover the rent (you said he was at an extended stay-pay by the week place, right?

It seems like you are still trying to find out if there is an OW. Get another PI or have a friend follow him to find out which room he is in. My exWH stayed at one of those motels and I just camped out in the parking lot until I saw OW leave a love note on exWH's car.

If all his mail is still coming to the house, you have access to all the bank stuff right? Look for buying minutes on a secret cell phone, dinners that are too expensive to be for one etc.

Do you have any access to his cell phone records?

Have you asked him if he is seeing anyone? Maybe he'll just tell you the truth. Some people think that as soon as you leave the home, you are magically not married anymore and it's not cheating.

LA - Sorry there was a lot in your last post I just couldn't follow. But I know you are supporting me and thanks for that.

Of course I know we were young. We did not date exclusively until I was 21, he 19. He's the one that always came back to me. He had other girlfriends (long term and short term) and at least 5 sexual before he and I dated for the last time in 97 which led to marriage. In fact when we were younger I would always breakup with him and tell him he was too serious with me that young he needed to go "spread his wings" and if we wound back up together well, so be it. I thought the 3rd time was the charm. Trust me I've considered the 7 year itch feeling, the 1st wives club feeling (I do not think it is possible he could be as successful as he is careerwise without me and my family), and just the general "men aren't ready to get married until their in the 30s" crap. But I can speculate all day and it means nothing.

I was never a "girly" girl. I didn't even think about getting married when I was younger. My H is my only serious relationship, and the only man I've ever been with. I should be the candidate for the 7 yr itch not him!

And just to be clear, I did go to a lawyer this week to see where I stand. I know its not disrespectful - he's abandoned me for almost 2 months! I do think he would love for me to just file so that a. I have to do all the work and b. It turns me into the bad guy (in his mind). What else would the common person expect to happen?

I'm definately not having a good day, its surely Friday the 13th for me.

I hope 13 MBers show up on your thread today...you've already got Tyk, Jean and Cat going for you...

Don't out-think what your WH wants or doesn't it...causes more pain inside you and adds to your fear.

You're doing because you're doing. You are smart, strong, reasonable and you're standing for your marriage. Because it's your choice.

Love's that way...it's a choice.

We're with you...others may post more today or tomorrow...let us know if you managed to get an appt for the Harley's or not...and looking up the xOWH, since you know his name, you can use zabasearch and see if you get lucky.

Because you ARE lucky. You've got us!!!

LA

No, his paycheck is direct deposited. It is the full amount it should be.

He's told me he's staying at extended stay motel-I believe this is a lie - my PI followed him monday nite to apartment complex 20 miles away that PI also learned is where suspected OW lives. For me this leaves no doubt. My PI will not give me the report for the information he has (I'm going to have to go fight him for it apparently which is not something I have the strength to do right now).

There is nothing financial amiss except the cash he takes weekly now. I have search our financial past and can find nothing that shows anything either.

Again I will say: I believe my H does not think I think he is having an A. I want to Dday/confront whatever you want to call it but feel my evidence is quite loose and I don't know how to get anymore since apparently my PI has stopped cooperating with me. Right now my psyche is destroyed because the person I paid to help me (PI) I feel like has turned against me (I think his effort to protect me from myself) but whatever I would do is none of his business. Just makes me feel like the world's against me.

PI not paid on credit card? I'm sorry.

Have hope, though...if you can zabasearch for her XH's phone number you might get that apartment address fast; then you can do a reverse lookup at anywho.com yourself.

You can let go for today wrestling the PI. He's not worth your effort today. You're trying for the truth...that's worth everything.

When you have confirmation OW's real street address, you might want to consult with the leasing manager--having WH live with might violate the lease (or not). One way to confirm, though. Not visiting, living there.

You might also look for nearby extended stays and call to see if WH was registered there for May or June at any time...tell them you're the OW and your rental manager is forcing him to show proof he didn't live with her or they are tossing them out...that he paid cash and can't find the receipt to prove he stayed there...and if there are more than one extended stay (by the week) close to her building, try the same story out...can't remember which week he stayed where.

We're for you, UAH, unpaid...sharing because we were shared with and we believe in you.

LA

UAH,

It struck me as well that you have "dated" him since he was 15. I met my 1st H when I was 16. Dated 3 years and M for 14 years, had 3 children together.

As we "grew up" (kids raising kids), we grew apart. It's probably what ultimately ended the M or at least put me in a situation where I really wasn't willing to take a look at how to fix it any longer. There were other factors, but we had NO IDEA how to relate to one another.

The one week away from his phone and home sounds kinda scary. Did he take a vacation week and is that why he didn't have to return calls? Why did he choose to e-mail you that he was sick? Was he out fulfilling some sort of fantasy?

Just so many unanswered questions.

Do you have your own computer at home? Have you considered doing some of your own snooping?

I would hire a DIFFERENT PI and then expose what you know to who you know as soon as you can.

So sorry that you are in this situation.

Well everyone, right or wrong at least I feel better. Got H over here to help me do something then told him that I knew he was having an A and who with and that I was certain of my facts.

He denied once, questioned how I knew, I told him I just knew for sure. And eventually - admitted he was staying with her. He did not do any other talking, did not get angry, did say he knew that I could work very hard to repair our M and that I was telling the truth about that. I was very calm. Like I said other than him saying he knew I would work hard on our M and confirming he was staying with her he said very little. I asked him if he wanted a seperation and he said there was a reason why he had not done that. Oh I did ask if everybody already knew, he said some people knew. I know it could all be a lie but I'm also quite certain it could be true. He kept making a face like "oh if you only knew the whole truth" at one point I said "what are you a sex addict?" and he said "maybe".

Anyway, he promises to have a conversation Tuesday afternoon. He said there is much more for him to say and he's ready to say it. Maybe he will show, maybe he won't.

All I know is I feel A LOT better having told him I know and him admitting he is with her. I fully expect that Plan B will have to commence very soon and I am prepared for that. So I'm off to my sister's for the weekend to try and put it out of my mind and have some fun maybe.

It's been a H#LL of a day!

UAH,

I know this may sound really "off the rocker" so please forgive me, but do you think he might be gay? When I was thinking about the week away from his phone and work, I wondered if that might be the fantasy that he was fulfilling. And if that's the case, maybe staying with this OW feels safe for him.

It's just so secretive, yet he tells you he is "staying" with her and the "look" he gave you.

Do you have an IC?

We're pulling for you UAH.

So sorry you are going through this. Take care of yourself this weekend. Do some good things for your mind/body/soul.

UAH,

Now I feel like Lucy.



Kudos to you. I'm glad you're experiencing relief, again taking care of yourself and moving to Plan B.

Do you have an intermediary set up? Someone who will not just forward you emails or voicemails, but will filter them for facts, distill them?

Have a wonderful weekend.

LA

Hey all,
Had a pretty good weekend, feeling calm still.

I have a question about exposure. I mean literally what do you say? I feel like I would like to just lay it out for whomever and that's just it. They do what ever they want to with the information, I mean I assume I am not supposed to ask them for anything am I? I'm assumng I need to avoid LB's with them too especially AO and DR. I'm very afraid that there are going to be people who already know (his parents for one) and apparently have no problem with it, choose to totally stay out of it or whatever. I'm not sure I could handle hearing them say "we know" and nothing else. Or if I call that they just don't answer.

Also, I am really questioning exposing him at work since it is not a work related A. I'm also worried many of them already know too. I just don't feel like my M has much support from "the world" because "we were so young" and "you don't have kids". It disheartening for me because I have read much of the Harley's examples and how many are "childless" examples? Actually, none I can recall. Of course a child involved is going to have to change a person's perspective but what about the rest of us?

I'm still waiting to see what H is going to tell me tomorrow (if anything). I can imagine lots of stuff (chronic cheating, gay, in love with her, she pregnant) I mean I have to imagine anything's possible at this point.

UAH,

I'm anxious to hear what he has to say to you tomorrow too. :eek: Glad to hear that you are calm.

I'm not sure what the exposure method would be when it's not a work related A. I didn't expose to my H's employer, actually just didn't think of it because it didn't have anything to do with his job.

Maybe you can work on writing down what you want to say to all of the friends and family and let it be about what you want them to know and not an expectation of their response.

You may need to wait until tomorrow's conversation to get more facts to be prepared for your "exposure".

Well, finally I am getting a story. This is not his first A. Which I was prepared to hear. So far this is his second, if he's not lying which I realize is also a possibility.

First the details about the first A. This must have been the mid part of 2005 and was with a coworker. I'm sure it started as an EA then got PA as time went on. He's stecthy on the details but I guess it probably was PA for 6 months or so. She was a single mother and I knew her. She lived a good 2 hours away so their PA's were only but so frequent (she was the district secretary for his company). She was definately the damsel in distress kind (and she really was probably) and at the time in our M I can imagine behavior on my part that I'm sure he justified the affair with. Plus I think she probably pursued him well (she was probably at least 15 years older than he). I guess he went to end it, she told him he needed to quit his job then because she couldn't stand to still work with him. He refused, she tried to relocate but had a lot of drama with her 18yo daughter about moving. She actually told their boss about it and then the next day she killed herself. His boss has encouraged him to go to counseling through the years but apparently not so much "if you don't I'll fire you" kinda way. He said after that he wished that he would never want to have sex again. But he started his whole conversation out with saying how he feels he's obsessed with sex and thinks about it all the time. He also made reference to something he said (must have been in Feb. when he actually talked to me a little bit after all the trouble started) that he wishes he could "just cut "it" off". I guess I should have noticed that statement more, but back then I still thought the "trouble" was work stress and possibly a porn obsession.

Now, to the current A. Its been going on at least casually since Aug 06. Started right before we took OW and her H to the beach with us for Labor day that year (how awful right?). Actually, began when OW exH asked them to get together to exchange something for the trip or something. She had already had one A in her M before this. As a refresher (and clarification point cause I was off a year) she left her H Feb 2007. So she's had an apartment to "get away to" since then anyway. This A he says he really didn't "mean" to happen. Says they talk on phone daily and met a couple of times a week. He doesn't claim to love her but to "care" for her. I asked what he thought she wants and he said "as much as I will give her". I said "if we split up will she be cool if you still just want to date" and he said "no if we weren't together she would definately want more" so I said "you won't say your in love with her but you're sure she's in love with you". He was with her while gone the 5 days in Feb and has been with her since he left in April. Just charged the motel one week to "throw me off track" (my words, not his). I asked him what he wants and he says "I don't know".

There was some more conversation but those are the basics. I told him he should have a desire to get into IC as if his leg were cut off. Considering the way his first A ended and the fog that must have been with it, I don't see how he could make a rational decision in years. I told him he still has a chance with me but that it certainly came with a set of "rules". He chose to not stay now but wants to talk again Thursday.

I have repeatedly asked what needs of his have I not met. He never says anything except that he felt we never "clicked" or had "it". Definately that there was love but not passion (my words not his). I asked "then why marry me", he said "I didn't think it was important then". Then I challenged that early on I think he did feel quite "it" towards me but probably that it was one sided because of our SF problems. He agreed that was probably a true statement. Like I said, I worked those out about 2 years ago but he would have already been in the first "fog" by then. So who knows?

Then I tried to show him that life won't be a pressure cooker if he comes back. We played a few games of pool(we have a table at our house which is one thing he loved about this house), had a beer, watered the plants, played with the dog. I think pretty much I've heard the truth, not to sure about whether or not he thinks he "loves" her though. He might feel as though he does but doesn't want to tell me that, I don't know I could see either being true.

I feel ok. Hearing who first A was was not a complete shocker. She had come up in my thoughts if I pondered was he a serial cheater from day 1. However, never considered that her suicide might have had anything to do with my H (which I know it is likely not the only thing but definately contributing). I don't think H should hold himself responsible for her actions but I can't imagine how you wouldn't in that situation. I'm very dissapointed to know his boss never tried to talk to me, warn me, etc because this is a man who claims to be all "family" and completely christian, etc. I mean he totally called out a couple of unmarried but cohabiting coworkers at the xmas party one year in front of everyone.

This does feel completely insane and surreal. But like I said, I'm feeling fine, nothings changed for me just because I'm getting some truth and feedback finally. And I do feel like I'm getting the truth, maybe that's crazy but I do. There's no way he can't need IC whether he wants to work on our M or not. He wants to talk again Thursday. I think for me it will be decision time what I want to do. I'm also pondering exposure and how in the world I can get to the people that I think I need to and who would actually be effective. For example, his F knows he's out of the house but his M doesn't. His F did intercept my email to keep aways from my MIL. He didn't tell his F about A but surely F must assume. Gotta ponder on that indeed.

(((UAH)))

Well, you got some honesty from him. That is a good sign. Must be a bit of a relief.

I suppose at this point, you need to decide what you want to do next. Plan A with him not living in the home will be difficult, but it sounds like you have been doing that. You'll need to give yourself a timeline for that so that you can move to Plan B and hold on to any feelings of love you still have for him if you think that there is still hope.

I'm so sorry!

UAH,

Thinking of you.

LA

Hello all,
Lots going on. Past Sat. on what was going to be our final talk before I went to Plan B H said he wanted to come home. He's definately going through withdrawl and its still very early but he's without too much provocation taken a lot of good steps. Changed his phone number first thing (this is a huge deal since this is his work phone). We went to her apt. and cleaned out all of his stuff and he left her NC letter and her keys. She has emailed him at his work email and he is going to get IT to block it today. I sat right with him as he checked it. I have no choice but to trust him on that. We discussed his job and how it creates such a 2nd life environment all on its own. I know he wants to keep his job and I know it is a risk but I don't know what else to do right now. Seems like asking him to quit it and making that a demand would cause too much stress.

He's definately having highs and lows. First thing yesterday I think he wanted to stay in bed all day, last night he woke up at 3 and couldn't go back to sleep and was all hyper this morning. I do think he realizes that on his side the relationship was just about sex. Now, what I don't understand is what I should do about sex. I do feel uncomfortable because we've just started and this will be his first "real" day off on his own (although he arranged to ride with a coworker all day).

This is the part to me that doesn't seem so covered in the literature. His withdrawl phase, how much we should try to "accomplish" while he's in withdrawl, and such. So any feedback on that would be helpful. Plus I guess I need to implement some spying to check his progress, just not sure of the most effective way. Plus that makes me feel so dishonest at a time when I'm asking him to be nothing but honest.

Gotta go for now. Here's hoping!

He needs to earn your trust. keep checking on him. It is the only thing that holds him accountable in these early days of fog. Do the best Plan A you are capable of. Your state of mind seems good and that will make it possible for you to love him through this.

If you are satisfied that you have set sufficient boundaries, I would not talk relationship talk for awhile. Set up your 15 hours a week of time together. Do fun spontaneous things together and remind him of why he came home. When he is out of the fog will be time enough to address your needs and do the questionaires.

You can do this.

God's Blessings,

Say

Good advice Say.

UAH,

LA will be around to give you some great advice for the long-haul of this process.

I must say that it sounds like you did a fantastic job at Plan A while he was still with this OW. He obviously saw that being with you was the more appealing choice.

And it sounds like he has put some good beginning steps in place to recover from his addiction. Is there counseling involved in this? Would he consider working with the Harleys?

Did you purchase SAA?

You are in my prayers!!

Great job. Hang in there and be optimistically skeptical.

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After An Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Coping with Infidelity: The End (there is a section in here about Withdrawal)
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Thanks everyone. I never felt more nervous in my life. I think I feel like the mom who just let their kid out in the world the first time.

We are working on setting up an appointment with a local counselor. I really think he needs face to face 3rd party accountability involved. I guess the best thing for me to do is get a GPS tracking unit on his car as well. I wish there was somewhere local I could buy such a thing.

Yes I read SAA already and H read about 2/3's of it Sunday night. I already read HNHN and LB but don't think H has read any of them yet. He thinks the addiction analogy is quite correct because his logical mind knows how stupid this all is. He has - without provocation - already said many disparaging things about her. While I think that is great I also worry he could be the smartest cheater out there - saying and doing everything "right" to promote recovery. I hate to think that way but I know I have to.

I'll be reading those links today (thanks, onlyU) and perusing the recovery boards for more insight as well.

Thank you for sharing, UAH.

Has he committed to transparency? This is an important redemptive act, IME, which aids the marriage and helps with your healing...to rebuild trust in himself and his half for you.

Seeing as you now know of two infidelities...and you understand withdrawal (which is, as he said, about withdrawal from the drugs of those false feelings)...there's a lot to explore...for him to get to the bottom of his own choices, find his route of choices leading to his choice to have A's.

You can be present to hear that journey--you can't direct it or take it about yourself, 'k?

You need the face to face, too...because you're choosing to believe he does. See what you need clearly, 'k? Your focus was all over finding out the truth...trains our brain intensely to search not within ourselves. Switching to recovery is working on our personal recovery as well as marital recovery.

Quite a trick, if you ask me.

What you choose to do to promote your recoveries...you will do and learn from...every step. Look at your own ENs and LBs...they are like guides to us...so if O&H is your top EN right now, be sure to act from that with O&H. You won't know your WH's stuff until he shares...and it's okay not to know right now.

You're minding your verifying the truth, which is terrific. You seem to have a great handle on what is yours...I'm not saying you're doing it wrong with your focus...I'm saying there's an important shift...hands off here, not there...and the overlap can get confusing.

Thank you for being here, choosing to stand for your marriage, and act from your beliefs. You rock.

LA

UAH,

As you post on these boards, just keep in mind that this is your PERSONAL recovery. We can only give you insight based on our own experience, filters and outcomes.

Do as LA has suggested and be present in the journey - yours and his - in some areas it will be side by side, but in some (addiction) he will be alone.

Don't let other's opinions side track you from what is important.

And again quoting LA - you Rock!