What's navel gazing?

I've seen it mentioned a few times and don't understand...

navel-gazing (nā'vəl-gā'zĭng)

Slang.n.
Excessive introspection, self-absorption, or concentration on a single issue: “The optimistic trend masks a looming problem, which has sent the travel industry into a renewed bout of navel-gazing” (Financial Times).

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Mrs. W

Just chiming in and saying, I'm here.

Here.

Bump.

Any more out there?

I am curious on the statistics. In the olden days, it was only men that cheated. Today, it seems the pendulum has swung the other way and more women are unfaithful. Without counting, that seems to be the case here (I could be dead wrong).

Anyone know what the infidelity ratio is between men and women these days?

I think we all agreed to that 17 pages ago, unless I misunderstood the original post!

Bring it on!

i don't remember seeing anything about percentages. i don't know if things have swung from males to females cheating more. what i think is that in the good ole USA we have become so much more accepting of things that we are just now seeing that women have been cheating just as much as males have been doing.

society still tends to label a premiscuous (sp?) woman a sl__t, wh___e, tra__p, etc. while the same moral trait from a male brings on such discriptions as stud, cad, jiggaloo, don juan, romeo.

none nearly as condemming as the kindest discription of a female.

i also think that because of the way our court systems are set up that a male caught having an A that ends up D'd has a much larger chance of paying some amount of $ to the bs. this leads to men trying to hide their A's much more then women.

along with the fact that men can usually go out and have sex with an op then come home and have sex with his bw. where as women most times need to feel loved in order to perform in a romantic way. leading the bh to start asking questions.

just some of my .02 cents or lack of sense

here's my question.......

do you feel your w is doing enough and all the things you need of her to rebuild your marriage?

i an sure this will be different depending on where you are in your time line

Shock,

The last numbers I saw were that 60% of men and 40% of women had cheated during their marriage.

As if those numbers aren't staggering enough, what is "cheating" was left up to those who answered the survey. Since anyone involved in an EA is not likely to recognize it as an affair, those numbers are probably higher.

And if half of the women cheated exclusively with the men who also said they had cheated, then perhaps 80% of all marriages are hit by infidelity at some point.

I think that more women are involved in romantic affairs than are men. I think men can and do often simply take advantage of an opportunity and since some men see it as a sign of manhood to never turn down an offer, they can get involved simply for sex pretty easily.

But I think many women first get involved at the emotional level, long before anything takes place in the way of sex. I think that generally for women, sex is a way of getting intimacy and for men intimacy is a way to get sex, so the two play into each other readily.

Frank Pittman suggests that women often have made a decision to abandon the marriage long before actually having sex with another man. But they have by then already created this fantasy around a life that doesn't really exist so that they have justified what they clearly understand as wrong. By then, in their own minds, they are not "cheating" but "following their hearts."

I'm of the opinion that this is why so many men around here are at a complete loss as to being able to act when they arrive. Their wives are telling them things like "I NEVER loved you," "I NEVER felt this way about you or with you," "I can't explain it, he just makes me feel loved in a way you NEVER could..."

All of those things are called fog around here, but to a guy who still believes that love is magic instead of science and hard work, they spell doom that is hard to deal with. Thus inaction follows inaction until the couple is hurtling headlong toward divorce.

JMO.

But the numbers pretty well indicate that about half again as many men cheat as women, at least statistically.

Mark

I am only a few weeks out from dday#2, and I'm still waiting for W's cell phone bill to come out from early this month. If contact with OM stopped when she said it did I will move on and start evaluating how she is handling things at the momment. If she is lying (still), then everything she is doing to show her commitment to the M means absolutely nothing...back to square one.

My W was doing this (having sex with OM, then coming home and having sex with me) . Not sure if she did it on the same day, but we did have sex in the mornings and/or afternoons, just for her to go out all night the same day...disgusting. And, I do know of one instance where W had sex with me the next morning/afternoon, after riding OM the night before... . Makes me sick.

introvert,

I'm assuming you and your W have had the RO lifted and have had a little time to talk? How are you doing with your plan for recovery?

S&C

Perfect timing, Steadfast.

W and I just got finished in the court room. The Crown Prosecutor asked me what I would like him to do...

1. Proceed with charges, and send it to trial
2. Establish a Peace Bond (with basically any guidelines I wanted)...but that would also go to trial.
3. Let him drop the charges (with my consent)

I opted for #3, and the RO is now lifted.

As far as the recovery goes, I'm still not sold on whether she is being transparent enough yet. Unfortunately I don't believe she cut contact with OM when she actually said she did (she's yet to tell the truth about contact with OM...ON ANY OCCASION!!!). There is still a matter of the next cell phone bill, which will at least let me know if she is being honest about contact with OM now, and if she is actually coming out of the fog or not. I know if I want to recover the marriage I have to start somewhere, but I won't start recovery with a liar...period. So I'll wait for the cell bill first. We did however have seperate phone sessions with Jennifer last week, and if the cell bill proves her honesty on the NC with OM matter, I will proceed with more sessions and plans for the August 8,9 MB Weekend. I guess if she did have contact on her cell bill with OM (after the last contact she admitted to) AND TELLS ME NOW !!!!!!.....I would forgive her and move on with my recovery plans. But, as history tells me, I will have to find out the hard way.

intro,




But the fact is you are going to start recovery with a liar. She has been motivated not to tell the truth. It benefits her to some degree. That's where the wayward mind is. You need to help her out of that mindset.

Either she wants to continue her contact, or she realizes what she has done, and it hurts her to admit it. Or she feels that the truth hurts you (while some call that a copout, she may honestly feel that way). Or it may even be, that the truth causes you to react in a way the makes her feel unsafe.

So a way to help her to tell the truth is for her to feel safe telling the truth, convince her that lying hurts you more than th e truth, and/or tell her that openness and honesty are conditions for her return into your life.

Either way this is a process that the two of you will go through and it will not resolve itself overnight. In most cases, there are set backs. You will need to keep an eye on the over all progress.

It will be hard because, any; I mean any, slip up on her part, will take you back to square one. But there may have been good progress made. That's one thing your plan needs to address. When (not if) she slips or seemingly slips, are you going to let your emotions dictate your response or are you going to stick with your plan and keep the recovery moving?

Your response to the truth can be very damaging to her ability or willingness to tell the truth. If you smack her when she tells the truth, you will be teaching her that telling the truth is bad for her and she will not be motivated to do so.

So if she tells you that she had contact with OM, how does your plan deal with that? If she tells you that she is in love with OM, how does your plan deal with that?

Your plan should prepare you for the times when you will be emotional and want to make life changing choices. BTW - Never make a life changing decision when you are emotional. It will screw you most of the time.

Does your plan tell the two of you to write up a NC letter that you approve of to send to OM? Do you know anything about her plan? You should.

I think you two have a lot to work on before you decide to call it quits so early in the game. Now that the two of yo ucan be together, you can really start to work on recovering your M.

Blessings.

S&C

I think a little bit of everything you say here is of fact.

This one is tough for me. All I ever wanted from the time my instincts were telling me something is wrong was for honesty...I got lies for 4 months. Then when I get honesty, it's not from her...it's from OM...then she admits it. Then, of course I get upset...not so much that the truth comes out, but because I get more truth from OM (POS) than I get from my W. If she would tell me something honestly for a change, she will see that I will respond with less anger than if I have to find out from OM.

Depends on what the slip is. If it's a lie about last contact with OM (like I'm expecting to catch her in right now), then I will continue with my plan towards recovery. If she decides she has to make contact with OM from here on out (phone or in person).....I'm out. I've had enough of this loser in my life and I won't deal with another situation involving him....period. It's pretty simple really.

This ends our marriage.

This has been done (twice)...broken the first time, waiting to see how she copes now.


It may seem pretty harsh that I have had to set such strict boundaries, but I am tired of all of this, quite simply. If OM is still a part of W's life in any way shape or form...I'm going to step out of the way and let him have her. I've tried every friggin' thing in the book to try to help her shake this loser, just for her to call him up when my back is turned. I even went to friggin' court today to get her off the hook for cryin' out loud. If she can't see that I'm in this for the long haul (as long as NC with OM is happening), then I'm going to move on and find someone who will treat me with the respect and admiration I deserve...period.

With that said, I am committed to recovery, but I am not going to bend over and let her and OM [censored] me whenever they feel like it....no way.

Just throwing my name in the hat as a betrayed husband.

I haven't read the thread yet... I've been kinda busy lately.

Not that I'm advocating doing such a thing, but you know what I told my W after d-day?

"If I catch you communicating with him ever again, even one time, one IM, one phone call, I will f_cking kill him!"

You shouldn't kill him, obviously, but you should plan his legal to semi-legal destruction. Don't tell your wife about it.

I've got a plan ready to go in a worst-case scenario, and it will be applied after renewed contact of any kind, or if I divorce, regardless of who files first.

My M will succeed, or OM will suffer.

I had a plan of action for OM, at one point. But, WW broke NC after she heard my plan (from another website), so I'm pretty sure she would have filled OM in on what my plan was. "OM over marriage"...that's been her motto for 4 months...I cannot do anything from here on out to make her switch to "marriage over OM"...that's W's choice. I have done enough to start us on the road to recovery (booked phone sessions, got the charges dropped in court today, planning the MB weekend, controling my anger issues, etc...). Any more contact with OM, I'm done.

intro,

I have to tell you that 4 months is nothing. And of course you are getting honesty from OM; it benefits him; he wants your W! I would be willing to bet that when his honesty doesn't drive a bigger wedge between you and your W; then he will start lying and tell you that the two of them are still seeing each other if your W has broken it off.


Are you looking to end your M or restore it?

If you want to restore it then you should use the methods found here on MB. Use Plan A! Use Plan B if necessary! Use the NC letter. Use exposure! Use then all wisely!

Put a plan in place that will help your W be accountable for her actions and whereabouts. She should give you access to all e-mail accounts, cell phone records (which you already have) credit card statements, etc. If she has to call you every hour put that in the plan. If you need to get her a phone with GPS inside to track her then put that in your plan. Whatever brings you satisfaction.

She may get weak and make contact again, just like an addict does with drugs. Until withdrawal takes place, she is more vulnerable to break contact. And until you become the man that she wants to be with (Plan A), then the relationship is fragile.

If you truly want your M restored; I believe you need to give Dr. Harley's tools at least 6 months. Give it a full effort, not a 1/2 a$$ed try.

I know you might think you've been trying hard, but if you never used the right tools; it's like trying to dig a hole with a 12 lb' sledgehammer. You can pound the ground all day and be dead tired, but if you use the wrong tool, all the work you put into it doesn't matter.

NC Letter, Plan A, help her through withdrawal. If there is contact; exposure; and continue Plan A, after Plan A, if there's still contact, then Plan B (you want her to miss you when you are gone, Plan B is no good if she isn't going to miss you). If she doesn't come back then go ahead and start D proceedings. I would actually have Jennifer help you with the plan though so you get it right.

Ifyou really want to restore your M; do it right.

Blessings.

S&C





If you want to restore your M, then be in it all the way until you use the tools that will restore your M