The last 5 years have been a strain on my relationship with WW. In 2003, I moved to a new town to follow my then-girlfriend because she got into law school. Had no friends or family there, and had to work at home because it was a small town and no real job opportunities for the type of computer work I did. Very little contact with people aside from her, and of course she was in law school and busy and didnt have the time I needed. But I worked and supported her while she went to school, even while she went to France for one summer without me. But I was very lonely and would complain about the situation.

In 2005 we got married, and I applied to law school. Got accepted to a very prestigious private school, but turned it down to stay close to her and went to the same school she attended. In spring of 2006, however, she took a job in a city 90 minutes away, so we were apart 5 days a week except for the summers. I took jobs in her new town during the summers to be with her. But again, a lot of loneliness and missing her a lot. I was a real jerk sometimes because I think I was bitter she left for a job while I was willing to follow her and pass on a better school to stay with her. I guess I didnt like that i had given up opportunities to stay close to her yet she didnt want to do the same. Nevertheless, I never formed close relationships with women, while she had a lot of guy friends on the internet who would flirt with her, make sexual advances, etc. So I think it was easier for her to deal with the time apart since she had attention from guys, and a bit harder for me since I had almost no attention from girls. She now says she wouldve preferred that I had an affair rather than be bitter all the time, but I find that ridiculous. Anyway, we just handled our respective loneliness in different ways.

In November of 2007, she began her affair with one of the guys off the internet. He flew down to see her on 5 separate occasions. It lasted until I busted her in April 2008. Because she did not want to leave her job early (it ends next month), I moved to her town and live in the place where she and OM slept together, etc. She absolutely refused to leave her job early, even tho it ends in July, to move to be with me. Again, no friends or family here, almost totally dependent on her for social contact. She believes the guy would be a better match for her because he is more positive about things and she believes I am too negative. Yet she says she wants to be with me and I am confident she has had no contact with him since I found out. I am with her whenver she isnt at work, and I message her at work all day long so there has been no opportunity for physical contact, and I really dont think she has been communicating with him either.

Its very difficult being here, and I am certainly not at my best. She insists she wants to be happy together, and wishes I didnt want to talk all the time. And I admit, I talk a lot, and I am constantly seeking reassurances from her. Anyway, I feel it is getting to a point where she wont want to move with me in August when her job is done because she doesnt like the way I am handling things here. But I feel like thats unfair, given that I am here in her town, sleeping in the bed where they did their thing, showering in the shower where they did their thing, seeing triggers everywhere, its kinda brutal. I am not attacking her really, more just questioning her a lot about what she wants and why she seems to want to take so little action to make me feel any better. She is happy to do things together, but doesnt really do much of anything simply for my sake.

In essence, because I vented a lot about the situations over the past few years, she seems to think I will always be venting. And she sees the way I am being now as just another example of that. I feel like the only thing I can do to make her wanna stay with me is put on a smiley face and never complain about what she did. But that is really tough to do, especially with all the triggers here. Yet its only been 7 weeks, and I already feel I am forgiving her. What really hard is feeling like she doesnt love me, and is just staying with me cause its the right thing to do or to avoid people finding out what happened.

We are sposed to move to my hometown in August when her job is done, and I feel I will function much better there with friends and family around. Today I asked her to give me a 6 month commitment, rather than judge out future based on how I am now. She is hesitant, she thinks I will always be unhappy and complaining, and doesnt seem to want to make that commitment. But I really dont want to be judged based on how I am while here in this town. I would like a chance to show her I can be a great husband in a semi-normal relationship.

So I feel like I am at a point where I either have to put on a smiley face for her and accommodate her in every way possible, or she will not move with me in August. It feels incredibly unjust to have to do that, but I am feeling like if I want her to come with me, thats what I have to do. Because if I am problematic, then she starts wanting to be with OM more. So, what do you guys think, do I try to never upset her and accommodate her for the next 6 weeks or so and never say anything about the A so that she will come with me in August? Or is that just a recipe for problems in the future, spoiling her, giving her too much power, etc? Is it this way because its only been 7 weeks, and she needs more time to withdraw from the other guy? Should there come a point where she will really want to make things up to me, rather than requiring me to prove to her that I can do better than OM? If so, any idea how long that should take?

YIKES! It sounds like you are giving up EVERYTHING for you and she is doing nothing in return. She seems like she now feels entitled to that treatment.

I suggest you quit following her around and make a good life for yourself.

By the way, welcome to marriagebuilders. If you are interested, there is a good book you can read called "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders". It will teach you how to recognize the things you are doing that contribute to marital problems.

I strongly ask you to consider to get counciling from the Harley's. Contact information is on this site.

Just ordered the book you recommended, thanks for the advice.

Yes, if you want to keep your wife with you then you have to put on your smiley face and pretend that you don't have any problems at all. That is probably the worst advice I have ever given but with age I have learned that women are unfair.

When a man has an A it will take months, even years to earn his way back into her heart. On top of that, everybody labels the man as an jerk and passes judgment on him. But if a woman does the same thing, it may take months, even years for her to learn to accept the BS back into her heart and every body says things like oh, he must have been a jerk for you to of had an A, they don't even call it an A.

I think that is just the way it is. Women are always the victim and if you let those triggers get to you then you are the bad guy. I am sure someone here who is not still dealing with triggers and resentment will chime in and give you better advice. Good luck.

Left to Wander: How long should one do this? Do you mean it is an indefinite thing, where I just need to not let things get to me and always be positive? Or is it something I need to do just until she gets the other guy completely out of her system? I dunno that I can go through the rest of my life never reacting negatively to bad situations, especially to those like this.

I do see what you are saying about her being the victim though, it is clear to me that she blames me in some way for this happening. She doesnt have the level of remorse one would expect considering what she did. I believe the OM used the "he doesnt deserve you" technique on her. I know from reading some of their internet posts that he did this with at least one other married woman, but ditched her when he found out she was overweight. So my WW was prolly just lonely and feeling sorry for herself, despite our situation having arisen for the benefit of her career.

But i dunno how to get past triggers like sleepin in this bed and always havin to worry he is gonna show up here. I guess I just have to dig deep and find some way to tough it out til August. But its really hard when I never know if she is just gonna come home one day and tell me we are done. We go to a MC on Tuesday, I hope that will help.

Well, for me, I had moved to a new apartment and when she moved back in it was my new bed and my new town and for the most part, my new everything. Not the best way to go if you had a house together but we lived in an apartment. So there are not as many triggers here.

As far as how long you have to do it, indefinitely I suppose. I have been reading Surviving an Affair and it looks like eventually things will even out and the triggers won't hit you nearly as hard or as often but for most people they will always remain. You just get used to them I guess.

As for your W, you have to get to a place where she can have no contact with the OM and she has to be willing to commit to making the marriage work. Once there, if you follow Dr. Harley's plan for recovery then eventually you will both be in a better place.

Unfortunately, the wayward may never show the remorse that the betrayed would expect them to show. That doesn't mean they are not remorseful. My WW has only shown bits and pieces of remorse but never when I think I need to see it to get by. It's tough being in the betrayed shoes. It's not fair but if you want your marriage to survive, you have to tough it out. The more she falls in love with you again, the more remorseful she will feel.

Hiato, have you considered that you might have made a mistake in your choice of a wife? It is clear that you have chosen someone who is not committed to you or your marriage, but to her career.

AS YOU CAN SEE, that is a recipe for disaster.

You don't even have the pressure of children and a huge mortgage yet and your marriage is crumbling from neglect. Can you imagine how horrible this would be if you had 3 little children and a fat mortgage? Just ask any of the men on this forum. Just ask them how horrible it is to have to explain to a 6 year old that mommy has a boyfriend and why adultery is immoral. Why set yourself up for that?

If I were in your shoes, I would accept that I made a bad choice and get out before the losses become greater.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Left to Wander: I disagree with you completely on how others perceive the affairs of women. I also think you're a bit too deep in your own situation to see some things others here have had some time to digest. Don't take it personally.

Hiato:

Your self esteem is in the gutter and you're letting yourself be a doormat.

You've married a woman who is clearly attracted to alpha males and you're not in that category at all.

She's a woman who will respect a man who has self esteem and stands up for himself.

If you want some guidance on how to act, read runningboy's thread. He was firm with his WW and now has a very remorseful wife working with him.

You and Left to Wander have no children with these women. Seriously, you lose nothing at all by letting these women go and live their immoral lives whily you leave them, work on yourselves, figure out how you ended up with such manipulative, selfish, and immoral women and go forth and eventually find one who is worth your effort and time.

These women aren't and you have no kids. Trust me when I tell you that at your age you've lost NOTHING but have gained valuable lessons learned.

I'll bet you a million, Hiato, that if you start showing indiference, taking care of yourself, having self respect, and acting like a man and not a lost puppy dog that your W will find you much more attractive.

No, the solution isn't to put on a happy face. It isn't to mope around either or to be angry. It's to respect yourself.

And before you come down hard on me: I was a doormat in my situation. You know what appeasement and being a doormat gets you? NOTHING.

If you insist on staying with these women, then so be it, it's your choice. But you must change yourselves if you want to have any hope that they will respect you as men and not as lost puppies, hoping for a scrap of affetion from their wives who are out screwing others.

Seriouly, I'm dishing the 2x4 because I wish I had gotten them in boatloads years ago. 2x4s are the only things that seem to wake up betrayed spouses from their own type of fog.

Fear of your wife will paralyze you. Saying to your W, "Stay if you want, but I'll be fine if you leave" will do more to make you attractive to them than, "Oh, gee Honey, I don't want to say or think anything negative or that may make you face the ugliness of what you've done. Gosh, I'm sorry to feel betrayed. I sure hope you stay and forgive me for being upset over your betrayal."

Which statement will make her respect you more?

Only SOME women are unfair like that. And unfortunately, some MEN are wimpy enough to put up with that abuse. We call them doormats.

pon: I see what you are saying, and I have been standing up for myself quite a bit and challenging her. I guess my big concern is that it wont do anything but push her away right now, that it isnt effective because she has OM to long for whenever I upset/challenge her. If she wants to go with OM in the long run, I certainly have no desire to keep her from doing that, I dont want to be with someone who doesnt want to be with me. I guess I am just worried that she is in a temporary withdrawal state right now and I dont want to do anything to cause her to make a rash decision. I dont like the idea of us ending what could be a good relationship because she thinks she loves this guy only to have her realize in 6 months that she has no intent to be with him. So if I have to smile for a few months, I will do it, I just worry it will turn into what you say, me being the weak male who she has no respect for.

On a side note, he is 32, lives with his mom, unemployed, and very overweight. I dont say the overweight in a condemning way, more to show he isnt what i would normally think of as an alpha male, he just sits in front of the computer all day. He plays on the internet all day long, they played a MMORPG together and he is the leader of their group. I dont see this guy as an alpha male type, if anything she seems to feel sorry for him. She is his third in a series of internet relationships, one apparently turned out to be a guy, and the other was not attractive enough for him, despite him not being so attractive himself. My wife is an attorney, highly intelligent, highly successful in her field, makes very good money, and is very attractive. My wife is the jackpot for this guy.

I think it is ridiculous to imagine my wife being with OM over me, and I want her to avoid running off with him not only so I can have a chance to figure out if this is worth saving, but because I think she is way out of his league and I do care about her and dont want him to get her pregnant or something before she realizes what she is into. She met me when she was 19, and had only a high school boyfriend before me, so she really has no idea whats out there and I believe cant appreciate what she has. She wants the fairy tale right now, and of course real sustained relationships are ups and downs. Unfortunately, everything with OM right now is a fairy tale.

So, while I feel like at some point I will have to return to being assertive and challenging her, I just dont want to do it too soon, if there is such a thing as too soon.

As for finding an moral woman, my WW was a very moral person for the 7 years we were together. I admit I myself couldve succumbed to the loneliness of our situation had I allowed myself to get too friendly with another woman. So its hard to just write her off as immoral, I think 18 months apart for 5 days a week would strain any relationship. I guess its all risk right? I could stick it out with WW, and the future could be great, and a new woman might cheat on me anyway. Where's a crystal ball when you need one!

Hiato,

You're in the midst of what we call BS fog. You fear the wife and fear the wife's anger.

I also see a pattern of "I met her when we were 19" on these boards lately. I was a victim of the same thing. Met her young, married, she then decides she wants to see what's out there.

Now, Hiato, what you're saying is wrong in so many ways. You need to understand that having the attitude of, "Do whatever the heck you want, I'll be fine if you decide to be with loser boy instead of me" is EXACTLY the type of attitude that will make you attractive to your WW.

That's why the plans suggested on these boards work so well. Right now you need to be in Plan A with the 180 as a very big part of that. Your fear, that she leaves to be with OM and it fizzles in 6 months, is actually Plan B and you WANT that to happen when you're in Plan B.

You see, you can only stay in this situation so long before you grow to resent and then hate the WW.

Why are you afraid to be alone?

Having her leave and then knowing you'll be ok is HUGE! It doesn't mean it has to happen, but seriously, you're young and have no kids. So what if she leaves? You got rid of an adulterous woman with no morals.

So she was nice before you got married. So what? She was 19. It doesn't take much for a 19 year old to be nice and have morals when they're barely out of the nest.

My point to you is that accepting that you will be fine if she leaves will liberate you and make you more attractive to her. It's counter intuitive. Show that you could care less if she comes or goes and it makes you more attractive than being the weepy, whiny, moping man you've become.

Appear to have a life outside of her and you will be attractive.

Throw her into the arms of OM and the odds are high she will see him for the loser and freeloader he is eventually. But guess what? You are likely to have moved on by then.

So quit being the doormat and the lost puppy dog. Show you have a life and self respect and will be just fine if she leaves.

You should do this regardless of what SHE chooses. Do this for YOU.

Buddy, seriously, no woman is worth this. NONE.

Moving on will either save your marriage or end it, but the advice to grow a pair is not to save your marriage, it's to help you.

This is advice coming from someone who was afraid of his WW's anger and who also feared driving her into the arms of any one of the many guys she was seeing when she became wayward.

Well, that fear paralyzed me and I ended up divorced and screwed on many levels. So this advice is coming from someone who has walked the walk.

Look at it this way: If you were the Captain of a cruise liner who was about to sail through iceberg filled waters, would you not want to listen to the words of a surviving cremember of the Titanic?

Yep, the Titanic sank and the ship was lost with many casualties, but the lessons learned by the tragedy and the lessons taught by the surviving crew are invaluable to someone about to go through the same waters.

That's you.

Fair enough. Not all women are like that, this is true but typically the women who are willing to be wayward are like that.

This may just be my biased opinion but there is no place for an MMORPG in a marriage. My WW met her OM on an MMORPG. He is a loser, my W is only a year away from her Masters. He is unattractive and lives in a room he rents from some other people who play that MMORPG. He happens to be a leader in that group and my WW is only the 5th in a list of other internet relationships that he has had with women going through rough spots in their marriage. Our stories seem to have too many similarities. My W met me when she had just finished high school, this world they played together in was just that, a fairy tale.

I feel you on the part about just walking away too. My WW was one of the most moral people I had ever met up until the last month or 2 while she was playing that stupid MMORPG. Everything changed when she got involved in that game and I got a new job. We were apart all of the time. I was either too tired to do anything or she was playing that game.

There is a fine line to avoid crossing at this stage. Don't let yourself get walked all over but at the same time, the more you make her feel bad about things, the less she will want to be around you.

The point is that you can't MAKE her feel any particular way. You can only take control of yourself and your actions. She may feel remorse with time. She may develop a conscience. You can't force it.

All you can do is make yourself more attractive and you pick up your own self esteem in the process.

DON'T expect her to develop a conscience, however. That may not come unless she hits rock bottom and even then she may be inclined to blame you for your woes than anything else.

Re: MMORPGs - I think you can play them so long as you can separate real life from the online one.

I play the crap out of real time strategy games. It helps me relieve stress. But I'll never put the game ahead of my relationships and can turn it off when I need to.

I play when my kids are sleeping or when I'm alone, but don't do so otherwise.

So I'll disagree with the assertion that MMORPGs are the cause of the problem. They may be a catalyst.

If you married a woman who has a problem keeping her pants zipped, then she would have strayed no matter what. The MMORPG is simply an excuse or the means by which she cheated, just as a hobby or job or other activity could have led her to cheat.

The odds are that it was inevitable.

He does sound like a loser, though. So throw her into his arms and watch her run back after 6 months. Either that or she'll move on to OM # 2.

I know one guy who was on these boards who waited and waited on WW to come back. She strung him along while she was living elsewhere and carried on her affair pretty openly. Things ended with other man and she moved on to OM #2. BH continued to be a doormat, letting her keep her stuff in their marital home and taking her calls and going out whenever she dictated.

She was fence sitting and he was letting her, not taking a stance one way or the other. Meanwhile, she was off screwing OM2 while he waited and waited for her.

It took 4x8s to finally get him to start doing something.

He's dropped off the boards because he was constantly getting hit pretty hard. He was starting to see the light, but he was still in the palm of her hand.

You see, when you marry a young one and have been married for years, you can get caught in dealing with the devil you know vs the one you don't know.

Your crappy relationship feels better to you than taking the risk of being alone and taking the chance that something better could be out there.

You guys should watch "Forgetting Sarah Marshall". I lived that movie. I was that guy.

But the message in the end was that he could love someone again and could be with someone who appreciated him for who he was and not what she wanted him to be. And his new woman was much hotter, IMHO (I'm partial to brunettes with blue eyes, but all women are beautiful).

The familiar feels safer than the unknown, even if the familiar is painful.

Trust me, the unknown is much better than what you guys have and you have no kids. I'd be running in the other direction from the cheating women you have and from a woman that has shown you so little respect.

Join a gym. Go to church. Find a woman that doesn't NEED you but is happy to have you in her life because you enrich it.

Well I, perhaps stupidly, thought the MMORPG would be a good way for her to pass the time while we were apart. She made no real life friends here, she just made real friends on the MMORPG. But I guess if I had to choose between that and her going out after work with people in town, the MMORPG seemed safer. Also, I dont really want to be the controlling type, so I am loathe to tell her what she can or cant do.

I came and stayed with her last summer, and all she wanted to do was play the game, and after I left I let her know that hurt me a lot so she quit. She was addicted to the social contact on the game, but i am very confident there was nothing bad going on at that time. But in December she told me she was bored and wanted to play some more. Unbeknownst to me, the OM from the game had come down to her city for work in November and they had dinner together and she never told me. Anyway, I went out and bought her a $2000 top-of-the-line laptop for Christmas so play the game on. Of course, it only got used to develop the EA, and I ultimately found out about the A because I got on the laptop one night after she went to bed and swore to me nothing was going on, only to find the proof. I admit that during my biggest blowup, I destroyed the laptop. She thinks that was totally unreasonable, and maybe it was, but she hopped on it on our anniversary (after a perfect evening) to screw around with some guild BS and gave me attitude when I said something so I couldnt resist showing a little attitude of my own. I am such a wuss though, I ordered her a new LCD so its fixed now. Shouldve just left it broken!

So, yes, I now agree with you that the MMORPG was a big mistake, I think she was so sure she could never fall for someone from the game that she let her guard down moreso than she would have in real life.

pom: Yeah its hard to choose between a damaged relationship and starting over. I dont think I am that afraid to start over, I just finished law school near the top of my class, I am 32, I have a great job lined up, I love to travel all over the world, and I am open to having children. I think I would be able to find someone decent who could be happy with me if I need to. I guess I just have a hard time walking away simply because she had the A. Of course, if you had asked me before I found out, I would've sworn I would leave her instantly if she ever did anything like this. But I guess I find that I am willing to forgive her, and see if we can fix things. I think the fact that we did 18 months apart before she developed an EA over the Internet shows that she was not eager to just go jump into bed with another guy. And she has completely cut off contact with him and seems to really want to be with me. But at the same time, all her romantic love is bound up with him and not with me. So I dont want to demand she instantly love me the way she loved him because I dont think that is possible. I guess I just feel like I need to give it some time before I start judging her actions on a rational basis. From what I have read, she needs to withdraw and I need to spend some time trying to make deposits in her love bank. When the time for judgment comes though, I assure you I have no intent of letting her use me as a doormat, because I know I can have a great life without her. And in the meantime, I will watch her like a hawk.

I appreciate your posts because there I have had very few people reinforce to me that life really can be happy post-M, and sometimes its nice to be reminded that it isnt all about her happiness. Thanks.

World of Warcraft is the biggest load of crap, and the biggest waste of time I have ever heard of. A few co-workers of mine talk about it constantly. Every friggin' day.

"Join a guild"? "Go on a raid"? "Cast a spell"?

YOU'RE 35 YEARS OLD!!!

Thanks to crap like this, it's now socially acceptable to behave like that comic store guy on The Simpsons.

I long for the good old days, where speaking about casting a spell in public would get your head dunked in a toilet.

It's a video game. Get over it.

I view Myspace in much the same way: It's something for teens (understandable for them) and for lonely hearts looking for someone to meet, but married folks?

Get a life!

"I use it to stay in contact with old friends."

Great. That's what email is for.

Yes, I'll agree with you about WoW. Haven't played it. Wouldn't mind trying it. But can't see myself using it as a way to socialize.

New subject:

Yes, life can be good with a new woman. I've rediscovered single life and I see a lot I like. I'm not desperate to be with anyone (though there is someone I really like) and have seen that there's tons for me to do.

Now, don't get onto this "I must get her back and then I can dump her" mentality. That's a recipe for bad things. There's a part of us, as men, that want to get our WWs back just to say, "Ok, you're back and showing remorse. Great. Now go F yourself. I'm starting my life over without you."

There's that desire to end things on OUR terms, not theirs, but that's the beauty of Plan B. Plan B lets you walk away to work on yourself while the ww flounders, finding her "happiness".

Wayzilla, in Chrisner's situation reminds me of this very thing. Same goes with my own exes. They wander through the world on a selfish agenda, oblivious to the consequences of their own actions and hurting the very people they claim to put above all else, which is their children.

My step-dad has an ex W who is demanding he keep paying child support despite the fact that his kids are all 18 now. She's having fits that he's not. I like his response. He deletes her rants without reading them.

The kids turn to him for guidance, comfort, and help. They can't stand being with mom? Why? Because she only thought of herself all these years and has tried to force another man down their throats. Instead of focusing her energy on what was important, which was her growing children who would soon leave the home, she focused on herself, destroying her relationship with her kids in the process.

There's no need to put on a happy face when you don't feel happy. I think indifference and carrying on with your life speaks much better for you.

You're my age. Plenty young to have a child with someone else.

I would be open to remarrying and having more children with the right woman? Why? Because I did have that dream of coming home to my family, tucking my kids into bed every night, and being a family man. The ex robbed me of that and robbed me of the most precious years in my children's lives.

It would be nice to have an experience that wasn't broken and I think it would be good to have a good example for my current children to see of a Christian family with Christian morals and the way a husband and wife should be with each other.

My ex may reach that someday, but I believe she will continue to have chaos in her life with her illnesses and rushed relationships and unrealistic expectations of marriage.

Perhaps not. Perhaps she's learned from our experience and can apply those lessons to her new marriage, but she's statistically started off on the wrong foot by living with the guy first.

So your WW needs to see this man who is 32, done with Law school, and is able to lead his new life without her. Make her fall in love with you all over again. How? By not being so attainable or so there.

Make deposits to her bank, but show confidence and be strong that you can move on and won't be spending your nights in the fetal positions crying on the floor while wishing she was still with you. (Hey, it happens to the best of us).

So keep your chin up and keep your attitude strong. Confidence will carry you further than being a weepy doormat. So buck up and be strong.

I do wish you the best, which is why I dish the 2x4s. But no one will root for you more than other BHs here who remember what it was like to be in your shoes.