Just looking for some opinions on this hypothetical question. Aside from the obvious where physical abuse is occurring, are all A's wrong and should MB concepts be expected to apply in all situations?

What about women who are married for many years and find out the H is gay? if she stays for children's sake, is her A AS wrong?

What about marriages on paper, simply to obtain a free ride into our country/get a visa?

What about those who marry just for money?

What about those with arranged marriages who do it just for the sake of the family business?

What about those who do it just to ride on someone else's health insurance for a few years?

What about women who give their M everything but feel economically trapped with a WS?

Then of course are all the addiction, verbal abuse, emotional abuse situations, etc

I've known people in each of these situations and just wonder what others think.

I don't know that MB principals apply to all of those situations, but cheating in any of those situations is wrong. Period.

Gay spouse - Be celibate or get divorced.

For a visa - Be celibate or divorce & stay in your homeland.

For money - Be celibate or divorce & live with less money.

For the sake of the business - Be celibate or divorce & pi$$ on the business.

Insurance - Be celibate or divorce and pay for your own insurance/medical bills.

Economically trapped - Be celibate, continue to feel trapped, or get divorced and tough it out.

Addiction - Be celibate or get divorced.

Abuse - Be celibate or get divorced.



The above assumes that counseling either isn't an option or has failed, and that SF with the spouse is not an option.

A certain "type" of marriage makes no difference. In any of those instances, it is as despicable as a married "playa" who just wants some strange.

Be celibate or get divorced.

Thank you, Krazy.

Like Krazy said, adultery is always wrong. That is not a MB principle, but a matter of moral principle.

Hey, Krazy, the last few days you are getting saner and saner. Great answer.

B you beat me to it. I was just about to say, who is this guy and what have you done with Krazy

Krazy i don't know what is going on but whatever it is keep it up, you sound a lot better.

Yes, good answers, but not all A's are PA's, but EA's, so celibacy may already be in place. Some religions teach that divorce is as big of a sin as adultery. Of course, D is not mentioned in the Ten Commandments as adultery is,but is still considered a sin and church members who are D are no longer welcome. If one believes a M must stay intact for religious reasons or children's sake and an EA is a coping mechanism for living with someone who does not return love, has "checked out," has PA's etc, it is slightly different... maybe a gray area?

IMO, each of those marital situations is wrong.

It was wrong, unethical, and immoral to marry under those circumstances in the first place. And it is wrong, unethical, immoral, and in some cases stupid, to maintain the status quo.

I don’t see where adding adultery somehow makes a bad situation suddenly ethical, moral or any better whatsoever.

May have as well included in your list, it felt right at the time.

May have as well included in your list, it feels right now.

In case you are interested, there are published stats on arraigned marriages, such as first generation children of immigrants, in the USA that show the divorce rate for family arraigned marriages to be less than 1/6 the rate for the rest of the population.

In a specific instance, my next door neighbor married the woman his family picked out for him in Fiji - he met her for the first time when he went over to marry her. They are still happily married with three children 25 years later. No adultery whatsoever, either.

With prayers,

PS:

> “Some religions teach that divorce is as big of a sin as adultery.”

I don’t know which ones those are. Even the Catholic Church accepts divorce to protect physical, mental, emotional health of spouse or children. In every case but one you list the offending spouse should not have married in the first place. Each is formal grounds for an annulment.

Here's your last post in your last thread:


Aren't you still asking the same questions as before? If you're still cheating then you're still wrong. There is no gray area. You're either committing adultery or you're not.

Generally speaking, an EA is a PA with logistical problems. An EA is still cheating.


If you are so "faith-driven" that you are going to live your life based on an old book, fine. FOLLOW THE BOOK AND DO NEITHER! Stay faithful, remain in your crappy marriage, and have faith that your god will reward you after you die.


Anyone who thinks you should stay in a bad marriage because "that's what God wants*********************************. Anyone so ******** about divorce probably isn't going to look to kindly on cheating, either. I always advise people to out the OP to their fellow churchgoers for that reason.


No, but it makes them a hypocrite. They MUST stay married because of their religious beliefs, but it's OK to email some ****************************? Really?

What about women who are married for many years and find out the H is gay? if she stays for children's sake, is her A AS wrong?

Hmmm. I would think that she should pursue a divorce in this case. If her husband has decided to have affairs (gay or straight), then she has cause to divorce and should. If he is honoring the vows, and has come out as gay, and she does not want to honor the vows, then she should pursue divorce. I personally don't see this arrangement of "marriage" as in the best interest of the children - not at all.



What about marriages on paper, simply to obtain a free ride into our country/get a visa? To me, you are either married, or you are not. If you have done this to break the law and just get into the country, then you are a criminal, and the person you have married has a right to divorce you (if they don't know about the arrangement). If they do know about the arrangement, then they are complicit in the crime as well. In that case, this isn't even a marriage, is it? It's a business arrangement. Is it an affair? My question would be - what happens when you fall in love and want to REALLY get married? What have you done to the person you are having your extra-marital relationship with? You've lied, led them on, given them the impression you are free to marry, when in fact you are not even single. You are married, and legally in an adulterous relationship. Gee.....is it an affair? Technically, yes. To your lover, I would think it was, if you have to get a divorce to be free for them.

I think two people who would do this openly really wouldn't concern themselves with the question of extramarital relationships being affairs. After all, the "vows" are meaningless to them, right? The "marriage" in this case is just a means to an end, and in the end, they are out for themselves. A likely setup for an affair anyway.

Someone I know is looking at this type of arrangement. Our family and friends have strongly advised against it. It can only lead to problems.

What about those who marry just for money? Yes. Plain and simple. Plus I would say if you marry only for the sake of money you need to reconsider your priorities, IMHO. Again, a person out for him or herself - and the perfect scenario for an affair.

What about those with arranged marriages who do it just for the sake of the family business? Arranged marriages are generally cultural in nature, and as such are expected to live up to the same standards of marriage as any others. Therefore, extramarital relationships are affairs.

What about those who do it just to ride on someone else's health insurance for a few years? I cannot personally conceive of such an arrangement. Who would take vows in this case? Such a person would have no concern that an extramarital relationship would be an affair, anyway. Again, the vows mean nothing to them, the "marriage" is for purely selfish reasons, to get around the rules. People who would do this strike me as people who could easily justify cheating on their spouses - regardless of the "reason" they are married...

I would say, you can leave, get a new job, and take the economic hit of paying for the insurance. If your relationship is really as bad as it is - that you "need" an affair to survive it all - then leave. Your selfishness for the sake of economics or health insurance at someone else's expense seems to me to be both unethical at a personal level and immoral for the affair.



What about women who give their M everything but feel economically trapped with a WS? Affair. This is WS babble. Justification, attempted, and not a good one.

Then of course are all the addiction, verbal abuse, emotional abuse situations, etc Gee, I'm abused. My spouse is bad, mean, intolerable.

LEAVE.

This is the 21st century. There are all sorts of places to go, and places for help. Churches, specialty helping centers, crisis centers, fire departments, social service departments, etc. Short of being tied to the bed every day (which I am sure happens, yes), there is only the rare situation when a person is physically unable to leave. It is emotional inability that prevents leaving. Getting the support to leave is the difficult part - and that support is available, just has to be pursued, located, desired, sought. Really, it is the hardest part (I know this, lived it).

But the abuse does not justify an affair, nope.
It justifies leaving, yes.

An affair would only likely INCREASE the problems, not decrease them.



So, that's what the 'Bus thinks. All, of course, my off the cuff opinions. Overall, I don't think you can justify an affair for any reason. Pretty much, if you want to have an affair, don't. If you absolutely cannot repair your marriage, and you cannot live with your spouse, then leave.

Affairs are wrong, yes, in every case. Just wrong. The questions and situations may differ, but a person can always make the choice to change their own situations in life. It takes work, sacrifice, and effort - but you can change your own circumstances. The problem is that people just are too selfish to make those sacrifices and effort. They want what they want when they want it - right this minute - and seem to find "justifications" for their behavior via situational ethics.


Schoolbus

An affair is an affair is an affair. An emotional affair is as much an affair as a physical affair.


And ALL religions teach that adultery is a sin. But so what if they didn't? Wrong is wrong..


Not at all. There is no justification for adultery. Secondly, adultery does not help people "cope," it cripples them and destroys their spouse and their children. Being selfish and thoughtless is not coping. Degrading oneself with sleazy behavior is not coping. Adultery is as psychologically traumatic as RAPE or the death of a child to its victims. That could hardly be characterized as a "coping mechanism." It is a cruel betrayal of one's loved ones. That is about like saying that RAPE is a coping mechanism, an insane notion.

There are no "gray areas" about adultery except in the very foggy minds of the wayward minded.

what is that sound I hear on this thread? what be dat??

None of the below or even a bazillion other reasons is EVER an excuse for adultery (PA or EA).

- What about women who are married for many years and find out the H is gay? if she stays for children's sake, is her A AS wrong?

- What about marriages on paper, simply to obtain a free ride into our country/get a visa?

- What about those who marry just for money?

- What about those with arranged marriages who do it just for the sake of the family business?

- What about those who do it just to ride on someone else's health insurance for a few years?

- What about women who give their M everything but feel economically trapped with a WS?

- Then of course are all the addiction, verbal abuse, emotional abuse situations, etc

EA's are emotional adultry and just as destructive as physical affairs. In fact, the majority of PA's would never happen without there first being an EA. Even if it remains a celibate arrangement, your are still giving the most important aspects of who you are as a person to someone other than your mate. The body is temporary... the soul eternal.



Divorce is destuctive, yes, but so is adultry. If you feel that divorce and adultery are truly equal, then avoid both. In seeking justification, it seems you have determined that adultery is actually the lesser of the two sins.


This isn't a gray area. Look, what you are proposing as a "coping mechanism" has the same core issue as the marriages you presented in your first post. That issue is called being short-sighted, everything looks gray if you can't see past the end of your nose.

If your husband is an adulterer, doesn't love you, and has checked out of the marriage, then you can (a)explain how you are feeling and ask him to work on rebuilding the marriage with you,(b)go to your church leadership and explain the state of your marriage, or (c) seek a divorce AND a new church.

It seems that right now you are committed to being miserably married. Own that choice, but realize that there are other options to be found in long-term solutions. If you have decided to stay, why not do everything in your power to make it as happy as possible with your husband? Take all the thought, energy, and emotion you are investing in the EA and turn it toward your marriage.

Take it from someone who is trying to recover from the impact of an EA, if you were treating the OM the same way you treat your husband, he would have a different opinion of you. Conversely, if you were treating your husband the same way you treat the OM, you would likely be getting a different response from him.

Focus your energy for the long-term. End the EA, and do not get involved in another. Use your faith and Dr. Harley's advice to rebuild and strengthen your marital relationship. What you have right now is not a marriage as God designed marriage to be. Your covenant has already been broken by your husband's behavior and yours.

You now have to decide if you are going to ask God's forgiveness and healing as you get to work on what has been torn apart, or ask God's forgiveness for a divorce and the wounds that will cause. Either way, you need to quit looking at yourself as a helpless victim in a hopeless situation and take responsibility for the choices you have made, because they have led you to where you now stand.

Instead of wasting precious time trying to figure out if it's okay to have an affair (short answer NOPE-NEVER), why not spend time figuring out either how to make your marriage work, make it fulfilling and happy for both you and your partner, or divorce. It's really quite simple.

Make the choice.

If you want to spend your time making excuses for affairs, go elsewhere. This is not the right crowd.

Gee. Are all marriages equal? Is it okay to have an affair?


I guess the answer you sought just wasn't here.


I think you wanted to find some crack where an affair was okay?
Some situation you could dream up where we would agree that an affair would be okey-dokey?

Not here. That forum is somewhere else on the world wide web, and you CAN find that forum. Just not here.


See, this here is MARRIAGE BUILDERS. We build marriages, we don't tear them down. This particular area is regarding recovering from infidelity, so the concept that it is okay to have an affair is a tough sell in these parts.


I think in your situation that the problem is that your marriage is in dire straights, and you feel stuck. There are a lot of things you could do about it. Each and every thing would require personal sacrifice. Some of those sacrifices might involve leaving the marriage, taking financial hits, emotional strains, living with things you don't want to live with. All choices nobody wants to make, but you will have to weigh and choose.

If this is a marriage you want, that is worthy of saving, then make choices in the direction of making the marriage

MORE WORTHY.


If this is a marriage that is not worthy of saving, then do not make

yourself LESS WORTHY

in the process of leaving the marriage by having an affair, or by doing things that compromise your own morals any further than you may have already done so.

Just leave the marriage - in an orderly and dignified manner. This is possible - and will entail sacrifice on your part.

It is your choice. But to try to justify immoral behavior in order to maintain financial security, or anything else, is just wrong.


SB

anyone that marries for money is a prostitute.

I'm not religious so my views are a little different, but not entirely. I don't consider divorce a sin, but adultery is always wrong, no matter what, regardless of your religious affiliation or lack thereof. Of course there are polygymous societies but these "marriages" are formally recognized by their group so it's not exactly the same I don't think. Maybe a different topic.



MB concepts are to build/save/recover marriages. So they should/could be applied anytime someone wants to build, save or recover their marriage. Not everyone wants this. Those people aren't here anyway.


Yes her A is wrong. It's his choice to keep her or let her go. I'm assuming in this scenario that he, the gay one, was faithful despite his homosexuality. If HE chose to keep her for the sake of the children, that's also his choice. I disagree with whoever said that this was a bad situation for the children. The children shouldn't be in the bedroom to witness SF or lack thereof anyway so it shouldn't make a difference from their perspective. Now if he were to have a little boy toy on the side, that would be an A on his part and he'd be in the wrong.



An A is an A, but I expect that in these situations the parties are not committed in marriage the way folks here are. Not saying that it's not wrong but I expect there are many such arrangements in which both parties are adulterous, but not in a way that hurts one another the way it does to those of us who take marriage seriously.


Socially acceptable prostitution. Nevertheless it is done all the time. Unlike the above scenario, it is unlikely that both parties came to an agreement - more likely one party is preying on the other, who would likely be devastated by an A.


This is very common in other cultures. Interestingly, cultures with arranged marraiges have lower incidences of divorce, but that could also be the nature of the business arrangement. I suppose there are instances of some mutual agreement where both parties are adulterous but I suspect that's rare. The fallout of adultery in this situation could be even more serious than what we western BS's have had to go through.


This is about the lamest excuse to get married I've heard of but I guess it's because I live in a country with socialized health care. Same story here - they clearly don't take marriage seriously and may not be as hurt by adultery, even though it is no less wrong.


Do you mean the BW is stressed to the hilt with money problems and a WH that she goes and has an A of her own? Since when did adultery solve a single marital problem of any kind? Nope - not here either.


No excuse for an A but more than enough excuse for divorce.


Not all marriages are created equal - we are, after all, individuals. And there are many marriages in which the parties aren't as serious about it as MBers. I took my M seriously, and I could have accepted if it didn't fail because of some critical flaw in the way we related to one another. I.e., if one or both of us had expressed unhappines, we'd both made a few attempts to fix it and still failed, I could have let him go amicably, divorced and remained friends. Instead he went behind my back and cheated.