My husband and I have been married for almost 18 years, together for 20. From day one, he has always been what I think is inappropriate with what he says to other women. By this I mean sexual comments. I have told him since the beginning that I felt that this was very disrespectful to me but he didn't see this, considers it joking, so did not alter his behavior.

Well, about 2 months ago, he mentioned this woman name one to many times to me which made me very suspicious. He has a work laptop that he brings home every night and on weekends so one Sunday morning he had taken our son to Hockey practice so I decided to check his work email. I was so hurt by what I found, and feel so betrayed. There were a lot of emails going back to Sept of 2007 back and forth with this woman. At that time she worked for a property management company, now she works for my husbands company which is a small HVAC company where he is a salesman.

The emails contained things like "Want to get Naked", "If I come in there would you kiss me", discussing lunch at "Mine and Your place", "My girl", "baby", and lots of terms of endearments. Needless to say, I was so emotionally sick by what were in the emails that I called his cell phone and ask him "what the F**K was going on with the OW"!!! I told him what I had found and I wanted to know what was going on. He said that this was all just joking around (like I said in the beginning, this is something that he has always done even though he knew I didn't like it), everyone does it at work and that it doesn't mean anything. When he got home that afternoon, the poo hit the fan. He saw exactly how bad his 'joking' has hurt me.

We've had 2 months of me crying and screaming at him, of telling him how bad this has hurt me. I can tell that he is remorseful of what has happened and he is trying to change how he interacts with other women, or so he says. I do know that he is NOT doing it through email because I downloaded key stroke software onto his laptop so now I have access to everything that he does and says. I do not however know what he is saying to this woman nor what conversations they are having. He says none other than business but how do I ever trust him again??

I took the advice of a friend and sent the OW an email. I had emailed her when I first found out and got the same "It was just joking" crap that I got from my H.

Well in the 2nd email that I sent last week I let her have it with both barrels. Told her what I thought of her "joking" with a married man and what kind of person that made her. She's been living with the same man for 9 years but isn't married to him. I told her that if I even thought that it hadn't stopped, I would contact her live-in and tell him about this. I provided her with his name, place of business and email address. She's probably wondering how I got that info. I also told her that I would come to the office and cause one hell of a seen then talk to the boss/owner then I would talk to the HR rep of the nat'l company that just brought them out and provide both of them with copies of the emails. If it gets my H fired right along with her, so be it. I'll do what I have to do for my marriage to survive this. I also told her that since she's proven that she can't have a business relationship with a married man then she needs to not have a relationship at all. That I did not want her asking him how he was, how his weekend was, etc

I have not told my husband about the 2nd email. He knows about the 1st though. I ask my H about this woman and what kind of interaction they have at work. He told me last night that she looks upset about something or is sick, he doesn;t know since they don't talk about anything other than work. I do plan to talk to him tonight though about it.

I think my marriage will survive this, I just need to get past the hurt and feelings of betrayal and learn to trust him again. I just don't know how to do that. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks for listening!!

me 44, H 41
3 kids, 24yo, 14yo and 9yo

How did he break it off with her the 1st time? Did he send a NC (no contact) letter/e-mail as suggested on this site?

Why wouldn't you notify her significant other of the situation so that he has a chance to fight for his R as well?

Read through the basic concepts and first few threads on this forum that have been saved at the top to give people advice.

There are wonderful principles on this site that can help you rebuild your M. It will require work on both of your parts and sounds like it will be well worth it for you.

Good luck!

When you are married, this is not a joke. Your H needs to respect your feelings. My H was not, by any means, graphic as your was but his EA was also with a co-worker. My problem was that he knew what he was doing felt wrong, but the ego stroke he got was way too overwhelming for a 43 yr. old man to resist. She poured it on thick and he took it hook, line & sinker. Imgaine what it's like. He goes to work, which becomes a sort of refuge, and has this other woman telling him how great he is. It all becomes a fantasy life for you. All the while, you're at home doing the laundry, caring for the children and caring for your home. He has the best of both worlds and can easily rationalize his actions because they are only words on paper...in his mind this is most likely harmless.
I did alot of 'put yourself in my shoes' scenario's for my H. I likened his EA at work with a repairman entering my house every day. I still took care of the work I had to do here, but any chance I got I flirted shamelessly with the repairman...who happened to be really hot! Then, one night I explain to H that I find myself attracted to the repairman. He and I have this amazing 'connection' (she says while gagging). He understands me and just seems to KNOW what I want and feel'. Ok, so when H realizes that the first thing he would do is fire the repairman and find a very old one to finish the job he realizes what he's doing. Don't get me wrong, there was no sudden aaahhhaa moment. This took many months and many tears. Occassionally, I still reference the repairman when he does not move quickly enough finding another job. I know my H well enough to know that he thinks because he's made up his mind to NOT chat with OW any longer, this should be acceptable to me. NOT!!! He must get out of the company where she works or she must move to Alaska where there are plenty of single men and very few women. Make that suggestion to the OW. I, too, spoke with her. Sadly, in my case it only seemed to fuel her fire. She told my H that I portrayed him as weak because I had to fight his battles for him. Jerk! Anyway, do some research. Let him know there are concrete boundries he cannot but is crossing. Ask him how he would feel if it were you. Would he find it acceptable if you had a little man on the side for a constant ego boost? He needs to recognize the reality of what he is doing and not the rationalized BS he's feeding himself. Let me know if there's anything more I can do to help.

Oh, and by the way....an emotional affair is when you are involved with another person other than your spouse in a way that you would NOT behave directly in front of your spouse. If you/he are having conversations that require hiding, it's an EA. If the relationship outside the marriage is hurting the other spouse and is not stopped immediately, it's an EA. If he's getting from another woman what he could easily be getting from you, it's an EA. Do a google search. I found lots of articles that were helpful in both educating myself and my H.

There are no 1st time, it's been one continuous thing since last fall (9/2007)as far as I can tell form the emails. Even when I explain EA to him he does not think that was what this was. He stands by this was just joking and there was nothing personal. He does now see that this was VERY personal to me, a slap in the face and very disrespectful.

I did not bring the OW's significant other into this yet as I want it as leverage along with the the threat of coming to the office and then telling the bosses/HR and showing them the emails.

Jo,
Here's where you are entered into a fight that you did not ask for. Sadly, it becomes your responsibility to educate your H as to what he is doing to your marriage. He has allowed a very toxic behavior to sour the love you have for him. If you are ready for the fight of your life, you will need to be diligent about his knowledge. He needs to see that it is not normal for a married man to 'play' verbally with another woman. I do not suggest giving the emails to his bosses, but would definately have a chat with her significant other. Hey, he may not know or he may. But, be prepared for some anger on the part of your H. I liken it to taking the favorite toy away from a 2yr. old. My H was resentful, at first, because I was telling him who he could or could not be 'friends' with. His understanding the hurt he was inflicting was a process. This is where you must be proactive. You have to learn and absorb all you can before you can even begin to have him understand. His is disrespecting you 100% but he's rationalized that he isn't. Sad for him, because he probably does not realize how much you love him. Show him...show him now. This friendship of his is toxic and must be ended asap. My H originally thought it was simply because she was a woman. This is not the case at all. IF H had a best guy friend who was toxic to our relationship, I would expect him to end that friendship too. It's common decency to NOT hurt the person you love the most. How old is he? I am not one to automatically assume it's a guy mid life thing, but I'm curious. Trust me, the only path to recovery is education. Please do a google search of EA and print out as much as you can.

Fiori ~ thanks for your advice and input! Although my husband has always been 'inappropriate' with the things he says to OW this went WAY over the line. He and I have discussed EA's but he doesnt see it as that which is Bull. Not only where there the emails they were also calling each other after work hours. He says they we talking about our relationship (which has been rocky for a while and her problems at home with her kids)which just added to the EA that I think that he was having but he doesn't I have asked many times for the cell records in the past 2 months but never gotten them (he has a work cell). This is a small company and he could easily get them but doesn't. I'm going to ask him again tonight and tell him that if he does not get them, I will contact the person in his office that has them and ask for them myself and also explain to her why I want them. I know her and have meet her many times so I have no problem asking her for them.

While my H stands by that this was just joking and nothing personal between him and the OW, I find it very personal and disrepectful for my H to be talking to OW like this. Not only is he giving the OW the impression that he doesn't care about me or our marriage, they has also given other people the impression that they are having an affair (he told me that she said that people at her employer which is where this all started). I told my H and her (the OW) that if this was just 'joking' then why when one of them were asked by someone if they were having an Affair didn't they change their behavior. All of this has been a major hurt abnd betrayal for me.

My H and I are working on things and as I said in the orignial post, I have a keystroke/email tracker software installed on his work computer that he does not know about. So far there hasn't been any thing else, but I don't know what kind of interaction they are having face to face in the office. I asked him the other day, I bring her up regularly, and he said she was acting like something was wrong or she didn't feel good!!! Poor baby, I hope the email I sent her (gave it to her with both barrels and told her in no uncertain terms what I thought of women like her)

JO
BW 44 WH 41
Married 18 years
3 kids S24, S14, D9
D-DAy 4/13/08

You know, I wrote a very graphic and hearfelt letter to my OW. My intention was to send it to every newspaper in the area so they could print it in the editorial section. I took out any details that could identify her or H but never did it. I did, however, post it online on another forum. Holy cow, I got ripped to shreads for being an idiot and not putting my anger towards him and not her. Anyway, the idea that she is remorseful because you sent her an email is most likely not true. IF she had any regards for you in the first place, she would not be engaging like this with a married man. It took our counselor to tell my H that his 'friendship' was toxic for him to see this reality. It's funny, we're married 18 years too. And, roughly the same ages. Must be that mid life thing! I've often seen vets here suggest a voice activate recorder in the car too. I thought about doing that once but realized it seemed a bit desperate to me. I don't want to have that kind of marriage where I'm a babysitter.
Curiously, what will the cell records show you that you do not already know? If you're that friendly with the office manager I'd get her to be your spy before anything else. I wish I had someone at H's office who could keep tabs on OW but I do not. He knows what he is doing is wrong, but there seems to be an addiction effect here. I always tell my H that by working in the same office as OW, it's like being an alcoholic working at a bar. Why do that to yourself day in and day out? It makes no sense.

Fiori,
My H and I had fallen into a rut with not saying or showing that we loved each other, constant arguments, etc. Even though things were not good between us, I DID NOT deserve this, which I told him and the OW. I've also told my H that I too have had numerous times to flirt and be inappropiate with other men, I never have since I value my marriage, no matter how bad things are going, and I would never want to give 'anyone' the impression that I did not love my husband or that my marriage was unimportant to me.

As for giving the emails to the boss, I know him well. He and his wife and kids have been to our house for cook-outs, etc. While it would be a last resort, I would do it. And I would go to the office and cause the biggest seen too. I haven't but I think the threat will work well with her. My H also knows that I will do it and has told me that if that was what I needed to get through this then do it. But, for right now, the email to the OW has worked well for me to express my tremendous Anger and Hurt to her.

I'm not sure whether I believe him or not about the "contact" with the OW at work. He says that they only speak when that have to about business related issues. He says that it is very awkward between them (GOOD). I plan to tell him about the email I sent her last week and see what his reation is. I told her that woman to woman, we both know that women DO NOT carry on like this with a married man unless they want more or there are feelings there.

I have shared all of this with my SIL (my H's sister) and also my H's father, who treats me like his daughter and who I love dearly. He's very concerned about me and has talked to my H about things.

I have already googled EA's, printed tons of information, bought 2 books and then discussed all with my H. He STILL does not consider what he was doing an EA. He swears up and down that there was never an emotional attachment to this woman. He thinks that but I KNOW that there was because he fits most of the signs listed. Keeping the contact a secret is the biggest. Since he also talked to male friends about out relationship, he told me about that but never mentioned talking to the OW.
Jo

Fiori,
While I know the office manager, I would not say we are close and do not feel right asking her to spy on my H and OW and report back.

What I want from the cell reports is to see just how often, how long the calls were and when they started. If this was just a 'friendship' there should not be a call every day or numerous times a day for months on end. While My H and I are trying to work this out, the cell reports and he not getting them like he has said he would, throws up a really big read flag. IF things are as he says they are, why wouldn't he get them, what is he hiding from me? If the roles were reversed here and I was me that had done this to him, and I was telling the truth, I would bend over backwards to proof it and it bothers me that he hasn't. It's just something that has 'stuck in my craw' and I need to see them. Until I do, I will not get over this because I think/feel he is hiding something and I have to know.
Jo

I agree with you 100%. When my H wrote an email to OW's boss about her respecting boundries and NOT calling him over the holiday's and for non work related stuff I requested a copy of the email. It took him a really long time to send me a copy. To this day I really have no way of knowing if it was real or not. But, his resistance was a red flag. I know now that it was him putting his foot down and not wanting me to treat him like a toddler on the way to the 'bad boy chair'.
As for your husband. I would ask him one thing.
"honey, would you do everything you did with OW right in front of me? Why was it a secret?" If he is truely honest with you he will answer the question correctly. But, be careful about what you wish for. Be ready to hear whatever he may tell you. I was floored the night I pushed and pushed until he blurted out the painful words "i think I'm supposed to be with her." I write this in posts over and over again because it helps me to diminish to potency of the words. He says now that I backed him into a corner and he simply blurted out words that really had no meaning.
And, one more thing. I learned to rely on this board religiously at the hardest times. At no time do I want to push you into anything you are not prepared to do on your own. I found that while this board is an awesome tool for learning, it was also a stick to stir the pot with. I got my fire fueled by the encouragement of others and used it against H. Yes, I realize this was beneficial at the time. But, there was a time when I had to back away and take a breather. If you're in the beginning stages of discovery, you will come to this board many times a day to see if there are any responses. This becomes a big part of your day. Honestly, if you REALLY want hard core adivise, I'd recommend moving this to General Questions II so alot of the veterans can coach you into the next step. I can only help you by relating what I, myself did and still continue to do. I'm totally consumed with this entire event. Definately moreso than my H and he's the one who started it. So, he has this defining moment and simply breaks ties but I'm left with the long term ripple effects of betrayal. Even if there is no physical contact involved, your husband needs to see that what he is doing is breaking your heart. You guys are at the same stage as H and I and it's so easy to get into a rut. Well, eyes are wide open now....see where I rut can get us? I never ever thought this would be my life. But, here I sit, hoping to help someone who feels the sinking feeling of betrayal like I do. You become part of a team you never really wanted to be on. But, know that the other team members will do whatever it takes to support you through the process. Just remember to use what works for you and edit what does not. It's your marriage.

JoJo,

I am so sorry that you find the need to be a part of this club that no one chooses to join but you are in a good place. Please read everything on this site and order the books. There are many other sites with information on infidelity but nine as good as this one. Dr Harley's methods actually save marriages after fidelity and even make them better.

Make no mistake, your WH has been unfaithful. I fear that you will unfortunately find after further investigating that this affair is more than emotional. The content of the e-mails, the length of the continued conact, the fact that he talked with her about personal aspects of your marriage all point to a PA. Even the fact that he never deleted all of those "joking" e-mails for all these months shoe a serious emotional attachment at the very least.

Unfortunately, you have already showed both of them the cards that you are holding. Don't threaten to expose. Just do it. You have already given her a chance to tell her live in that there is a crazy wife of a co-worker who has blown a simple joking e-mail exchange into an EA. "Isn't that ridiculous?" And your WH has probably already told everyone at work that you are so jealous and insecure that you have read too much into work related phone calls.

He has lied to you for months. Assume he still is. Plan A your butt off and continue to watch him.

God's Blessings,

Say

Say,
Do you know how to tell Jo to switch this to GQII? I am not that savy with this board so I don't quite know how to do it.

((JoJo))
So sorry you are here but you're in a great place with lots of support. My H also had an EA with a coworker. We have been working on R for 6+ months. The articles, info, advice I found here is what got me through this mess.

It is very normal for your WH to deny that this was an EA. He is still foggy (justification for his behavior, unrepentant, etc...) My H didn't de-fog until he had left his job and NC was established for a few weeks...

You should read through "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" thread found here in JFO. Everything you find there applies to your situation just as if it was an PA.

A couple of things...
*Post on the GQII forum.
When I got here I posted in JFO and GQII and I got many more responses over there.

*Develop your Plan A.
Plan A helped me save my marriage.
Yes, I was NOT to blame for my H's EA, but we definitely had to make some changes in our M. I learned about Lovebusters and EN's. I had a list of things that I read that helped me get through the day cuz if I didn't, I would have been LB'ing all over the place in the beginning as I was so furious. Plan A helpd me work on what I COULD control...myself...and my H became much more happy with our marriage and wouldn't you know it, he started working much harder to make sure I was happy too.

*Exposure...I know you don't want to hear it, but you really should expose to OW's BF.

*Order "His Needs Her Needs"
It was suggested here to order the audio version and my H listened to it on his commute to and from work...he really liked it. There is some "Surviving An Affair" info contained therein. This is going to help you understand the dynamics of marriage, A's and how they happen when EN's aren't being met. I really don't think this is a step that should be skipped.

Lastly on the cell records, yes, I definitely would investigate. In the beginning, I checked everything. I still check up on my H's cell records periodically even though he has NC and all of his actions tell me he is fully committed to our M.

Good luck. Keep posting.

I believe you can ask a moderator to move the thread for you. I am not that savy myself. (:

Say

Say,
Oh, I know that he's been unfaithful if just in the emotional sense whether he wants to admit it or not. I do not believe (an God I pray that I'm right) that this EA made it to a PA. I do believe that had I not found out about it that it probably would have.

I am not the type of person that can hold things in so I confronted him ASAP after finding the emails. I do not regret this.

He did delete the emails about 5 or 6 weeks after I confronted him. I have "called" him on that.

As for the threat of exposure, right now, at this moment, it works for me. I do not however, have a problem with actually doing it if I feel the need to. I know EVERYONE that my H works with and they know me. They know the kind of person I am, my personality, etc so I doubt that my H has done that. It's just not his way. He just wouldn't discuss it with them.

I appreciate all of those feelings. I had them myself but the WH you are dealing with now is NOT the H you are used to dealing with. He is a man who will discuss your very private marital issues with a woman he works with instead of you. I found that so impossibly hard to believe about my DH but that man was nowhere to be found during WH's A.

Please remember that he must earn your trust again. Until then, question everything he says. Plan A is about changing the type of person that you are. It's about changing your reaction to things and becoming a better, smarter person. It's about avoiding LB.

Your WH holds all responsibility for his A. It was his choice. Who you are and how you act/react to him may very well have had much to do with the state of your M that allowed this to happen.

Please read everything on this site, get the books and listen to the advise you get. These loving people are experts dealing with As. Don't make avoidable mistakes that will cost you your M.

God's Blessings,

Say

Say,
Have you lost your mind???

Who you are and how you act/react to him may very well have had much to do with the state of your M that allowed this to happen.

I don't care what state my marriage was in, nothing I did or how I acted/reacted to him allowed this to happen. This is a selfish choice that a person makes to do instead of investing that time and energy into the marriage instead of another person outside the marriage. I was in the same marriage and I DID NOT turn to another man.

I DID NOTHING to deserve this. He should have turned to me or gotten the Hell out of the marriage.

Read my post again. Nothing you did or did not do makes you responsible for his A. I made that very clear. Recovering your marriage, making it better and insuring that it never happens again has everything to do with the state of your M before, during and now after the A.

Don't forget that we have all been through what you are going through right now. I am a little over a year post D-Day. I ran the gamut of all the emotions that you are feeling. Anger, hurt, devastation. I hated him. I loved him. I never wanted to see him again. I would die without him. Then when my own fog cleared and I realized that I was married to an imperfect man that I loved very much for life, I tried to figure out how this had happened.

An affair is simply a symptom of problems within a marriage unless the WH is a hopeless serial cheater who cheats just to cheat. I realized early on what responsibility I had in the state of our preA M and I owned it. That is what Plan A is all about. Both of our love banks were empty before and during my H's A. HE chose to have the A. I did not. He brought devastation into our lives where before we had had boredom, lack of respect and neither of us was meeting the other's ENs.

When I decided that our M was worth saving and that I could forgive him, I set out finding out just what ENs I was not meeting that he sought out in OW. The MB plan is counter intuitive that is how it saves marriages.

Again, have you read the info available for free on this site? Have you read HNHN os SAA? If your WH thinks that it is OK to "joke" in that way or share your marital problems with another woman then at the very least your M has serious boundary issues.

No one deserves this. NO ONE! But he did not turn to you. I asked myself why my H turned to someone he barely knew and I made myself a W that I am sure he will turn to if he ever has unfullfilled needs in the future. You are the only one that you can change.

Sorry if this offends. It was not meant to, only to help.

God's Blessings,

Say

That is the hardest pill to swallow. Our own accountability. I must say it's not the medicine that I was ready to take in the beginning either.

However, as my resentment and obsession continued to control me, I listened to what Dr. Harley says about resentment and obsession and realized that the only person I could control was myself.

I do not ever intend to take responsibility or blame for his EA's, but I know that I have a part in the state of our M at any given time. And I had to go to work on eliminating the LB that had surfaced over the years.

Even if there wasn't an A involved, this is my responsibility.

Aside from the work you need to do on yourself that you can practice with while you are performing your Plan A, you need to EXPOSE this MINIMALLY to the OW's significant other.

How would you feel if HE knew something about YOUR WH and his WW and didn't tell you??? You are wasting precious time and this is a PERFECT opportunity to cut it off at the pass and start working on your M.