This morning my wife and I got into a huge fight on the way to work. Out of it came some information that I wanted to share here to see if anyone can give me some suggestions on how I should proceed.

First, a quick recap of the back story. My wife and I have been married for 8 months, together for nearly 4 years. At the beginning things seemed good to me, although she later revealed that things had not been great but she hadn't voiced that to me, but around the time of our first anniversary things started to go sour. We worked on things, though, and have made it this far. A week ago, though, she gave me a divorce ultimatum: either I shaped up in a month, or she was leaving. Since then I've been trying every day to improve, but so far I haven't succeeded.

This morning we got into a big fight that started because I didn't empty the cat's litter box. She has asked me to do it every day, and I was doing that until one day when I was running late and didn't get a chance to before work. After that I started doing it every other day since it didn't seem like every day was really necessary. So this morning when she asked if I had cleaned the litter I said no, I had started doing it every other day because every day didn't seem necessary. At this point she exploded at me for "never listening to her", claiming that I must have believed "she couldn't possibly have had a reason for saying that [cleaning the litter every day]", and that I had just proved once again that we are not right together.

On the drive to work the fight escalated, partially because I'm trying to be more aggressive in addressing issues with her rather than avoiding conflict, which is my natural tendency. She said that she's realizing that we were never right for each other: I'm not the right religion, the right kind of person in bed, or the right personality type. She gave me lots of reasons why I am not meeting her ENs, which I agree with, but doesn't believe that I am trying to. I told her that I've been working on it every day, reading and thinking and trying to see what I can do to meet them and then start doing those things, but she feels like I'm not actually doing enough to meet them and that's proof that I'm not really trying hard enough.

I feel stuck at this point. I made a promise to her three years ago that I would never give up, even if she said she didn't want me to keep trying, and I care deeply for my wife and have every intention of carrying through on that promise. But at this point, given that she thinks we're not even compatible enough to be in a relationship together, should I be trying to disengage myself from that promise and moving on?

I want to save our marriage, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to.

I really think it's way too early in your marriage to give up.

People will always tell you the first year is difficult - try 5. And we had a mixed-religion marriage as well, so I know all about that.

Don't start a family with her, obviously. She seems way too impulsive with life-altering decisions, possibly spoiled.

Is she acquainted at all with the MB principles?

I'm by no means an expert and take this guidance with your own thoughts in mind.



The first thing I feel you need to look at is you saying the fight was over the litter box being changed. Was it over the litter box or over the fact she expressed something that was important to her and she felt you didn't listen by making your own decision on it? Why not talk about it in a calm manner and come to a joint agreement on how often it needs to be changed? Don't fight, both express your opinion and come to an agreement on it. Not faulting but when you felt it only needed to be changed every other day (which can be the case) why not bring that up in a conversation? Would this avoid conflict by addressing it together before it becomes conflict?


Was your promise a realistic goal? Can you disengage yourself from that promise but yet still work on things and try to improve the marriage?


Like I say I'm no expert and have major problems myself so take what you want out of it and do your best for what you think is right.

That is a very odd thing to say - on her part. What would make her think 4 years ago that she would eventually tell you she didn't want you to fight for the marriage? Is she unstable?

Soolee, she is not familiar with MB. She doesn't really respect the fact that I'm trying to improve myself and the relationship by looking for help from books, websites, and forums, or at least she makes me feel like she doesn't.

ezb, yes, the fight was really about bigger issues than changing the litter box. I think you're right, though: I should have said something to her like "hey, I noticed that the other day I didn't get a chance to change the litter box and when I changed it the next day it was fine, so I think we only need to do it every other day" rather than just make the change without consulting her. I can see how that would make her feel like I'm disregarding her, doing whatever I want instead, when actually I was trying to make a refinement to her idea.

I think we have some trouble communicating because I don't feel like I can safely express myself to her. I feel like I can't talk to her openly, like everything I say must be carefully considered so that I don't say anything wrong. This is something I should probably bring up with her. Maybe the best way to do it is to try communicating openly about something and if she begins to attack me or degrade me, I'll stand up to her on this issue.

catperson, I thought that it was weird at the time, too. But I remember it perfectly: we were driving the car home, I even remember what part of what road we were on, at night and were talking about relationship stuff and she asked if I would fight to keep her if we ever drifted apart. I said yes, I promise to always fight to keep us together. Then she asked me if I would do it even if she told me she didn't want me to fight for it, and I said I would. Maybe she was already planning to confront me about things and knew that it might lead us to a point where she would just want to end things.

I don't know if she's emotionally unstable, but she isn't the happiest person in the world. I'm not sure what a normal amount of stress to have is since I rarely stress out about anything, but to me it seems like she's always stressed, even about little things. She was physically, verbally, and emotionally abused by her mother. I honestly can't even remember a time when she was really happy, with no worries in the world. But there have been times when she's had violent mood swings, to the point of her coming out of them and not even being able to remember anything other than feeling angry, but that's been when she was taking steroids after an asthma attack.

Bipolar, perhaps?

I'm not sure. I just did a search and she might be, but it feels like a bit of a stretch to fit the symptoms to her.

Steriods can do a number on brain function.

A woman I worked with was taking steriods along with a heavy duty antibotic. One of them, I'm not sure which, could actually induce a temporary psychosis. It was extremely rare, but she showed signs of it. In general, her medical regime greatly effected her ability to interact rationally with others and keep her emotions in check.

A, I'm with Catperson on this one. I think that is a telling remark. Did you ask her to make the same promise? What did she say about how she'd handle problems between the two of you?

While I understand Soolee's point about the first year being the hardest, I'd also caution that most people seem anxious to work on things the first year if there are good times as well. I'm not hearing a lot of good times in your posts.

Once again, my own personal bias, but my ex and I had big problems within 4 months of marrying. I knew something was really wrong and asked him to go to counseling with me. Unfortunately, I got pregnant about 1 month after the wedding.

You may have promised to keep fighting for your relationship, and I think that's good. Just make sure it's a GOOD relationship you're fighting for.

There are quite a few things that could be wrong, but I think the best thing is for her to see a regular doctor to get a complete checkup and a psychiatrist to have a personality test of sorts done. There are so many things that this could be - the bipolar as mentioned, mixed mood disorder, post traumatic stress, etc.

I'd encourage her to see both and possibly even make it part of what you need in order to stay.

It's just my uneducated opinion, but it sounds to me like there's quite possibly some unresolved issues from her childhood that she's bringing into the relationship. It's almost like she's the mother figure now, and you're the child to abuse and practice her power on like her mother did to her.

I think something shifted after you got married and she realized she was safe to assume a different role. You must have represented a safe enough environment for her to realize she wasn't being abused anymore and that she could shift roles without fear.

I found it curious that she asked if you would fight for the marriage, and I think it's because she knows there is something going on in her thought patterns and she is scared.

I don't think, personally, that this is something any of us here are equipped to help you with. I think your wife needs a psychiatrist or individual counselor and will have to deal with her FOO issues before you're going to have an equitable marriage. Right now, she's too busy venting childhood anger by mimicking her mother.

I think for your own good, it's best to see if she'll have it all looked into and support her as best you can. This way you'll know in your heart that you tried to help her with it. If she refuses, then I think you're going to have some difficult choices to make.

Good luck.

Thanks for your replies. I think I will need to wait a couple days before I try to approach her about something like seeking psychiatric help, because we got into a huge fight today. But, I think it was a good fight, even if she's not speaking to me right now and acting pissed at me.

The last couple days we have gotten along okay, although I'm still sleeping on the couch. This morning I made breakfast and we went to see my parents for father's day (we were going to see her's, but her mother essentially pushed my dad into doing something with her brothers, so my wife and I couldn't see him today but we plan to go next weekend). On the car ride we got into a big fight that was set off because she asked me about some maintenance the car needs. I'm waiting for a part to come in, and I was planning to call on Monday to see why it hadn't arrived yet, but she got mad that I hadn't already done it because I she said that she would have already called by now and I was proving again that I wasn't responsible.

The fight then turned, though, to more serious issues. It wasn't easy, but I stood up to her. I told her that I am trying hard to improve things but that if she doesn't at least stop doing counterproductive things I am never going to make any progress. We talked about a number of things, one of the more important to me that I finally told her that I'm not happy about the way she insults me when she gets mad at me and the way she always gives me orders rather than asking me to do things. Throughout our fight she kept trying to turn around what I was saying to be that I was blaming her for everything, but I kept reassuring her that I wasn't blaming her, I wasn't whining, I wasn't trying to pass off responsibility. I don't care who to consider at fault; I just want to find actions that will improve our marriage.

As the fight went on she started going through quite phases before starting back up. I hope this means that during these times she was thinking about what I was saying and considering how she is contributing to things. Like I said, she kept trying to make me out to be blaming her and not accepting responsibility, but I kept assuring her that I was and that my only concern is making things better.

We were nice to each other around my parents, but got back into it on the car ride home. She also eventually started saying about how I was making her day worse than it needed to be since it is her first father's day without her grandfather. I admit, I should have thought about that before getting into it, but in the long run I think having her a little upset today is better than continuing on our present course. Personally, and I say this without malice, I think she might have come up with that as a way to try to put things back on me. I didn't say anything like that to her; I don't want her to get mad that I'm "analyzing" her. But the fact that she's having such a reaction, to me, suggests that what I am saying is having an effect.

I'm not thrilled about it, but I hope that this means that I have a opened the door to better communication. No more keeping it to myself that I don't like being insulted and ordered around. Which will hopefully eliminate any unconscious resentment and create an environment in which I can actually improve our marriage some. Because for all the love busting I've done to her, that's no reason to allow her to continue to do it to me and destroy my motivation for improving things.

Just...wow! You are a poster child for reading and learning and implementing and overcoming your fears. An inspiration. I am very impressed! I think you may have gone a long way toward fixing your relationship.

I hope so. She's reengaging in the relationship, starting fights about things now rather than just totally ignoring me until she gets so fed up about something that she can't contain herself.

For now the arguments keep going in circles. My main concern now is that she says I need to make some big gesture to make up for having been such a jerk. Based on everything I've learned I'm not sure it will really improve things, but I figure it can't hurt to do something that will (hopefully) make her happy. But it's been so long since I felt like making a romantic gesture, I'm not sure what I should do. When I felt like it I could think up things easily, but now I feel like I'm deliberating on something that I know I will get wrong no matter what. Any advice on how to approach this? I think that in several months or a year I can get us back to a place where I will naturally feel like being romantic, but for now I'm just not sure.

Exactly what does she want?

Look, if your wife has been asking you for 8 months to stop putting your dirty socks and shoes on the kitchen coutner, you need to build/buy a boot box to store you shoes in. Put it in the kitchen. The beauty is that you not only show that you're stopping your annoying habit, and putting a mechanism in place to make the change permanent.

If she wants you to buy her little gifts to show affection, a big "start off" gift is great. Then, put a mechanism in place to make a permanent change. This is a little harder since too many people think that demonstrations of affection "should just come naturally."

All that said, from what I've read in your posts, your wife is vague at best when it comes to the changes she wants you to make. It's really hard to make a big gesture if you haven't a clue what you need to do. Then, she gets to berate you for not measuring up, but she hasn't told you what's being measured nor what the instrument of measurement it.

Just imagine being in a grainary. Barley, wheat, and corn. Something is going to get measured--you don't know what. You also don't know if it's going to be in volume, height, weight, what? Heck, the color of the grain could be measured. How yellow is it?

So, I say don't know yourself out IF you don't know what she wants. Unless you set up 3 MC sessions for you both to attend and make dinner reservations for before or after.

I'd also consider telling her that your grand gesture is you are giving her another shot. Your grand gesture is not leaving, keep ing your promise.

You may also consider saying "You are not Cinderella. This is not a fairy tale story. You are flesh and bloody. I'm flesh and blood. This is real life, so grow up. Stop playing princess, and let's both work on this marriage."

Thank you for the advice, GG.

It's nothing like dirty socks on the kitchen counter, it's all related to how I treat her. She feels that I don't show her that I care. I've tried to, but I've routinely faced her rejecting my efforts when they were not up to her standards. I've tried to do what I thought were some very nice things for her, but almost always she finds something wrong with what I did or a way that I should have done it better. So over time I think I've lost the urge to do things, since I know it's not going to be well received.

You're right, I don't really know how she measures what I've done. And even if she told me, I admit, I might not realize it because we have very different emotional needs. My needs don't go beyond knowing I'm loved, having someone to support me, and feeling secure within the relationship; I wouldn't care if I never got a birthday present or treated extra nice, so long as I had those things. Hers are much more complex, and I have some idea about them, but I can't figure them all out because I don't think she even knows what they are.

I wish I could say something to her like you've said here about not being a princess. I can already see it turning around on me to become "well, you should treat me like a princess; that's how you should treat your wife if you really loved her".

No, a man who loves and values his wife does not treat her like a princess. He does not spoil her. The word "spoil" means to "go bad" "turn rotten." I know your wife won't understand this, but you should. Have you read Boundaries in Marriage by Towsend and Cloud? If not, you should. I find the continuous citing of scripture distracting, but there is wisdom on every page. When you allow your wife to act like a spoiled little girl, you are doing her a disservice.You are doing your relationship a disservice.

And your wife seems to be acting like a spoiled little girl, saying to her daddy. "Give me" "Show me" "Prove to me you love me" "I want more..."

Finally, from what you are saying your wife is playing the bar raising game. This is a losing game. When two people have different needs, they can still understand and meet each other's needs. The problem you face is she refuses to tell you her needs, and switches them around after she's told you.

Have you considered telling her there will be no grand gesture? Have you considered telling her that her neediness, her constant hunger for someone to prove they care, is unhealthy and she needs to get professional help asap?

I know I sound a little ferocious. It's because you've been doing the Plan A stuff to bring her out of withdrawal. But instead of Plan A motivating her to put some effort into the marriage, she seems to use the threat of divorce to manipulate you into an ever increasing amount of emotional outlay without her giving you anything in return. In other words, it doesn't look like Plan A and the MB concepts are working well. Therefore, she may have something going on that's getting in the way, even if it's a sense of entitlement. "I'm me therefore, I deserve the fairytale marriage without doing anything for it." Please.

That's why I suggest you stop buying into her arguments. You don't need to do more. My guess is you do a lot. Practice saying "No" to her.

My 2 cents,

Take what GG is saying to heart. I've learned really well the negative effect treating a woman like a princess can have. Never saying 'no' is a recipe for disaster for certain.

Go grab the book 'no more mister nice guy' and read it cover to cover, it will change the way you think about yourself, love, and relationships forever.

I'm doing things now that I never have done before, and it's great! I'm really starting to feel good about me, even when I'm being ambushed with accusations and guilt.

Break free from 'nice guy syndrome'.

- TTM

Yes. You know, the feminists really messed up when they wanted men and women to be the same. What we ended up with was mature males who are "nice guys." Nice guys are great when you're 16 or 18. Adult women really want "Good men."

Thanks for the suggestions; I will work on it. I've tried to tell her that there's nothing big I can do to improve things, but maybe she doesn't believe me because she's trying to impose her will on me. I'll have to think on it, but the next time she brings up some of the milestones I've "ruined" in the past, I'll try to stand up for my actions. So our first kiss wasn't very romantic (I made a joke about having to kiss her to get her to leave after we stood talking in the foyer of my apartment for an hour), but this was my way of dealing with being nervous. Maybe it wasn't ideal, but it was how I best knew to engage in our first kiss.

This morning we had a talk about some LBs I've been committing, just little things that are easy to work on, like leaving dirty dishes in the sink (note, though, that I do the dishes 90% of the time, and she only does them when she feels I have failed to deliver on my duties) and not cleaning my bathroom often enough (we have an otherwise unused guest room and bathroom in our house, so I generally use the guest bathroom unless we have company so that we can save time in the mornings, hence it's "my" bathroom). If I understand correctly, though, this is normal love busting that I should stop, not being too nice. Being too nice is when I put up with her yelling at me and bossing me around because I've been taught that's how adults should behave.

Finally, thinking about what you said about nice guys being good when you're 16 or 18, although she was in college when she broke up with her boyfriend of three years, he was someone she started dating in her last semester of high school. They lived over 500 miles apart, but drove to see each other on weekends and vacations. She and I started dating a few months after they broke up, so I was essentially her first "adult" boyfriend from the beginning. And because I am such a nice guy, I've let her get away with expecting to be treated the way nice guys in high school did. So when I don't deliver on those expectations of a constant stream of flowers, chocolate, attention, and more, she sees it as me not really caring for her, when in fact it's probably the result of resentfulness from not having my needs met because I've subjugated all mine to her. And I know I've done this because I've told myself many times "don't worry about it; it's not really important, so just do what she wants". But it all adds up to her feeling like she's not safe with me and my subconsciously lashing out to correct for my resentment.

How do you subconsciously lashout? Do you make DJ's or do you just think stuff?

I think you misunderstood about saying you won't do the big gesture. It's not that you "can't", it's that you choose not to. Your big gesture is to continue to stay married to her. I'd tell her that. She's making your life miserable.

Yes, not leaving dirty dishes and cleaning the bathroom more often is good. I'd get some clarification though. How often does the bathroom need to be cleaned in order to meet her standards? Once a week? Or wiped up once a day? Same for the dishes. Can you leave a dirty glass there until the dishwasher is done it's cycle and can be reloaded, or do you have to do it immediately? Can you watch your favorite show after dinner and do the dishes after the show, or must you miss your show?

I'd record the decision either on a digital recorder or write it down. This way, she can't change the rules. Be calm and assertive when you ask her to define these needs further. My guess is she's going to be mad that you're trying to nail her down.

About the bringing flowers, and stuff. Some guys do that, some don't. "Mr. Nice Guys" bend over, grab their ankles and ask for more. If their girlfriends say "Bring me flowers every Friday" they do it, even if it puts a strain in their budget. But, they also are rather sneaky, passive-agressive. They say "yes, dear" and sneak out to hang with the guys.

This is from my perspective only. I haven't read the book The Tall Man suggested.

One helpful thing I've learned. My primary relationships are important, but they aren't the most important thing. God/religion/spirituality/integrity are more important than those relationships. In other words, my relationship with God and with myself is the most important thing, even more important than my relationship with my children.

I'm not suggesting you walk away from your marriage. I am suggesting you know what is so important that you would rather get divorced than do that or suffer that. These items are your Boundaries.

And try to find ways to communicate more. Try to remember how it was when you were dating. You talked about everything under the sun, right? Try to get back to that, get her more comfortable with talking to you, to feel safer, so that she might start sharing her feelings more at some point.