Background:
Female
Age: 23 (next month)
Husband Age: 23
Married: July 22, 2006 (almost 2 years)
No children, just two dogs and a cat.
Started dating: June 23, 2002 (6 years Monday)

My husband left last Thursday (June 12) and has been gone for eight days. We recently started going to counseling, which we both saw more as "relationship maintenance" instead of crisis management or anything. The main reason we went was to talk about moving. We both were born and raised in the same small town. After two years together, we moved together to a larger town two hours away to go to school and he was pursuing a degree in which he had a chance of a lifetime internship. We lived there for two years (married after one year there). After a year and a half of being there, my uncle passed away at 64. I wanted to be closer to family. His parents showed us their rental house that they wanted to get rid of. We saw a lot of potential and made the decision to buy it. A week before moving back home, the sale fell through because they kept changing their minds and the price. We backed out and were still going to move. I gave notice to my employer, trained a new person for my position, and already had a job in the small town that I was starting as soon as we moved. We moved and rented the house we were going to buy.

My husband hates where we grew up. He has a bad past here and the only reason he moved here fell through (the house). I told him I would compromise and move half an hour north to a bigger city out of the county, but still close to my family, but my only condition to do that was that we had to buy. I don't want to move to rent again. It only sets us back more and more financially, plus we have two dogs and a cat. I think everyone knows the kind of deposits you have to pay for that!

Anyway, he has been gone for a week. He came home Monday to talk for a while. He said that he felt like he could never match up to my dad. He knows I have a strong bond with my family and says I deserve someone polished that will go golfing with my dad (my dad doesn't golf, but I see what he is saying). My husband, by the way, is an electrical apprentice, sleeved tattoo, kind of a homebody. When we married, we knew we were completely different, but we had the same goals and had been through so much already and we loved each other. After hearing that he felt second to my dad, I came to some realizations. I held his past against him.

When we started dating, he was just out of rehab. He got drunk once and his parents called the cops on him (he was a minor) and kicked him out. My dad picked him up and let him stay at our house for the night. We went back to his house the next day to get some clothes just for the weekend and found two brand new cars in their driveway, moved everything out of his bedroom, and his little brother was moved into his bedroom. So, needless to say, my parents felt bad for him and let him live with them (separate rooms of course). I was kind of put in charge of him, and he developed a great bond with my family. He moved out with one of his friends after a year with my parents and we maintained our relationship. He had an MIP, a DUI, a dismissed reckless endangerment charge, and a few tickets. He is on probation for five years for his DUI (which is almost over). I am scared to death he is going to screw that up and get charged double. I am always worried about that.

I came to the realization; anyway, the other day that he knows I am always worried. He knows I didn’t trust him. In a way, I was trying to talk myself out of loving him because I didn’t want to get hurt anymore with his legal trouble. I was worried how people looked at him. I was slowly pushing him away, farther and farther.

I love him and now he doesn’t know if he wants to come home. He told me we can maybe date, which I was upset with to begin with, because we are after all married! But, now I am starting to understand that we need to rekindle our love.

I don’t’ know what else to write right now. I’d appreciate thoughts and input. Let me know if you have questions on the background to make advice easier! I hate hurting! I just want to cuddle with him!

Welcome to MB, DNS...

Sounds like you guys are in crisis right now. My perception comes from you guys being separated...that your H has moved out.

Was this a more accepted occurence in your world than in mine?

Have you checked to see if he's having an affair?

Do you know if he's left you, left the marriage (because he's not good enough), or is this temporary for him to get his attitude adjusted, for his own clarity, or about getting to stop or start something?

I'm a little confused with the moving and time placements...does your H still have this lifetime internship going on? Is that where his financial support comes from? Did you get a new job when you guys moved closer to your family?

Are you operating under the belief you are still in charge of him?

One of the major things I learned when I found MB was how I parented, not partnered. Learning to partner is very different.

I suggest you get Dr. Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs" and read it asap...have you read all the articles on this webiste about the four rules of marriage? Please read them...you may understand how The Policy of Joint Agreement will aid you in resolving this current separation.

Also, I see you as hurting from feeling abandoned right now. Let me know if that's close, 'k?

Welcome!

LA

We started our counseling a few months ago (not just since separating) and did talk about the parent/child roles. I have admitted to being in the parenting role and have asked for help to get out of it. Help from the counselor to view my husband's situation and help from my husband to accept that it will take time. I think he is not willing for it to take time and just wants us to start over. I want to be able to go on dates and such with him to rekindle any lost feelings, but my concern about that is that he has an unrealistic perception of what a marriage should be. We aren't always going to have butterflies in our stomach like we did when we first got together. You know?

Now we are in crisis management.

No, he is not having an affair. We have never had any issues with infidelity at all, no concerns even. Right now, he is staying with a friends family (friend works a week then comes home for a couple days) so he is by himself. We are talking daily.

When we moved closer to family, he didn't like his internship and had already made the decision to go from Electrical Engineering to Electrician and was going to apply to the union. He is a union electrician now. I had my job lined up when we moved home. I am a Legal Assistant for one of the biggest law firms in the county. I have three years experience and am in a great position for training where I am.

I do feel abandoned. I feel like I have made so many sacrifices and decisions to love him when it is hard, and now he can't make the decision to love me...

Thank you for the info, DNS.

Are you currently going together, weekly, to MC?

I had a slightly duh moment, btw, when I saw your thread title again after replying to your first post. Just me sharing.



Here's what I believe about parenting our partners:

Parenting is our introduction to love...easy to see where we would express our love in this way. Doesn't excuse. Explains our natural tendency.

Couple that knowledge with having within us the child we were in the adult we are, and you have the dynamics of automatic parenting with a partnering intent.

Your parenting role attracted your H, btw. In the three stages of marriage, the first, the attraction/infatuation part, we are drawn to things we loved most in our caregivers...we see those in our spouses. As we move into the second stage, the true selves stage, we see where even what we were attracted to is what we resent.

We work out with our spouses a lot of stuff from childhood...part of the process from loving in a parental fashion to loving in a partnering expression. It's a process. Helps us grow and to grow in our marriage.

Divorce occurs in this second stage...which is when we get to real intimacy, not infatuation. Old beliefs we had from childhood..."finding the right partner" "wrong type" "incompatible" beliefs result in feelings of resentment, anger, fear, pain and blocks intimacy. With good reason...we begin to know each other "for real"...all of our selves...and that's tough on one another because we had these images we had presented and accepted...feels like re-negotiating what we vowed to...which is why, I believe, we make those vows...they aren't based on who your partner will become...they are to yourself and what you'll do as you get to know yourself and your spouse over time.

Worth it entirely...because of the third stage...the mature love...only way to get there is through the rough second stage...which is what I see you working on getting to...share your commitment, your choice to stand for your marriage with your H. It's ten times more amazing than the first stage. Better than butterflies.

Only way to fully heal, too, as we do with each other, from what we didn't do...and what we did.

I hope you considered carefully my question about an affair...it's a red flag for him to move out and precipitate this crisis. There are emotional affairs as well as physical. Affairs on the internet, by phone, from high school, even with a fantasy image in our heads...which we compare roughly against our very real partner, our spouse.

All do damage to the marriage. All of them about fantasy, not reality...and signal a deep desire to get out of the marriage right away, as if the marriage is causing him pain instead of the pain coming from within himself, signalling him about himself.

We all have unrealistic ideas of how our marriages will go...again, we vow to each other while we are in first stage...we react to our feelings. In second stage, we learn that's living backwards, actually...to love in a healthy, partnering fashion, we don't wait for our feelings and then act...we act directly from our beliefs and our feelings result from our actions.

Maybe your H can envision and see the mature love stage...wants it right now, without going through the second stage to get there. Only way is through, though...and counseling, communication exercises, 15 hours of UA time, making ourselves safe to know and be known...learning listen and repeat, injecting respect...all these tools are how you go through the second stage...together. It's the recipe for the third stage.

You really can fall in love during the second stage, again and again...have butterflies for each other...meeting ENs, eliminating LBs...follow the rules of joint agreement, radical honesty, protection and time.

You're in a great place to do just that. Please keep posting.

LA

LA,
That was so insightful, Thank you. I will keep posting. In the meantime, silly question maybe, but what is ENs and LBs? I have printed the Four Successful Guidelines for Negotiation and the Policy of Joint Agreement and am going to be reading those.

I think you last post was great. What do you think about letting him read my post and your response?

Never mind EN (emotional need), Still reading... Haven't found LB yet though...

Awww...the acronyms...



Read "A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts", too...I think you'll find out quickly, in Harley's articles, what LBs are...and then you'll understand there are acronyms here for each of them. And why I use them.

'Cuz I type so much!

Before giving you my opinion on letting H read here...consider your desire for him to do so first...is it to educate him so you can be on the same page in your visions, goals, beliefs, feelings or perspective? That's me guessing.

Congrats on discovering the ENs as Emotional Needs...there are free questionnaires to print out on this website..ENs, LBs and the Recreational Inventory...are you guys still in MC? This would be something you could ask MC if you both could do together, filling these out. And if not, you could fill out the ENs yourself and one for him as best you know him.

LA

I gave my husband copies of the articles too. When we were talking last night he was using terms from Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. I did find it in his car a month or so ago, too.

we are still in MC. We were going once a month to every six weeks. Our next appointment is this Tuesday, but we are going to have to set it back to Wednesday. My H is having an upper endoscopy. So, he is willing to go to counseling, not really excited about it. Probably because he knows that the counselor may not agree with him leaving...not sure though. I'd like to go every week. I don't know what my husband will say. I guess the first step is seeing how this session goes. It will be our first one since him leaving.

He came over last night for dinner and a movie. Said he wasn't staying, but he did. He fell asleep on the couch then came to bed. He cuddled with me. He left at 6 in the morning to help his friend with his brother's landscaping business.

Not sure what to do about the "dating" thing...how to act. Should I be open to him staying over like that?

DNS,

I hear you saying your H read a book and was speaking to you from his interpretation of it, is that correct?

I'm holding myself back...because I gotta share...I think that's marvelous. Wonderful. Coming from my experience where my DH doesn't read. He does audio books, though.

Okay...it's not the end all, of course. Just want to kudo...same for going to MC...excited or not, please don't discount what actions are taken by throwing in stuff with real actions, 'k? That's for your clarity.

And you rock, as well, for standing for your marriage. I hope you already know that.

Have you guys told your counselor of him moving out? Four to six weeks seems to me to be a great maintenance schedule for MC...not for crisis. I think separation is crisis.

Can you guys do (afford) weekly? I think you'll find out tomorrow, huh?

Have you read about Plan A here on MB? If you've made certain there is no other person in your H's decision to leave (and that's what I hear you saying...that you've independently verified in creative ways)...then you can still consider Plan A...which is asserting best self again, eliminating LBs, identifying ENs...and practicing the four rules of marriage.

Would you consider choosing to believe your H loves you, desires to be with you? Not look for evidence of it...not dissect his acts of love or lack thereof...just choose to know what you really know in your heart...and act to save your marriage?

Rule of Time is at least 20 hours of UA when the marriage is in trouble. This can be dates...doing recreational stuff together...where you remember how you were best friends and playmates...not enemies...not that your situation is the same as in infidelity...still has rejection, separation, IBs in it...how are you doing on the acronyms, btw?



LA

He is reading a book...I think. I hope it's not the end. I'm still confused by his actions and what he is telling me.
I told the counselor the Monday after he left that he had - and scheduled an appt. right away, but I couldn't get my H to go. Our first appt. since separating will be Wednesday.

I told H last night that I thought it would be a good idea to go to MC once a week, I think he is going to, not sure though. He was very reluctant.

We have great insurance that covers marriage counseling, so it should be about $20.00 a week, I think.

I do believe my H loves me, but sometimes the way he acts, I feel like he is trying to stay away so he can do what he wants, when he wants to, etc. Today would have been our six years together and he went to the bar with a few of his guy friends - kind of hurtful. His friends were a bit of a problem in our marriage, too. A few of them don't have jobs, or license's and go to bars, then walk to our house to crash on the couch. I came home from work one day, and the friend that stayed over the night before was still there! His friends live a single lifestyle, and one lives across the street (not to mention they have never been in any kind of committed relationships). So, I can't tell what really motivated him to leave the marriage... because he wants to live the lifestyle his friends do and not be tied down with responsibilities, or because he wants to move to a large city and I don't and he is trying to decide what sacrifices he is willing to make and what sacrifices he needs me to make.

I'd love to go on dates with him (Undivided Attention). He came over last night to watch a movie, but he fell asleep. I wanted to go to the rodeo the other day with him, but he turned me down. He told me today he was going to come over and stay the night after he got done with his friends, and I told him that he wasn't allowed to come to just stay the night unless he was planning on moving home. I feel like he wants to walk in and out of my life when it is convenient for him right now, or when he just wants to hold me. I want nothing more than to be held, but it only puts me on more of a roller coaster thinking he is getting closer to coming home. I don't see him sleeping over as undivided attention. I see that more as he misses his bed...am I wrong to not let him stay over?

I am in a venting mood right now. I find myself feeling all different emotions on different days. Very sentimental one day and just really P.O.ed the next day!

Oh yeah, and LB is love busters!?

You just keep making wonderful choices, IMO, DNS...

Very admirable given the emotional rollercoaster you're experiencing.

I think you stating, "I'm all for spending time with you when you're awake. It's very painful for me when you come over to sleep, cuddle, and then leave again. Hard for me to separate that we're separated or not."

Did you find the Recreational Inventory here on the website?

Cultivating friends of the marriage is tough...we don't know to do it and when we do know, it's usually when we're in crisis.

Finding other couples to be friends with is important. Seeing you both can socialize, interact, still have fun separate from single fun is important in the transition that is marriage.

For your own POV, list all the benefits of marriage...from combining incomes, to being there for one another (in good times and in bad)...list them all so you see them clearly.

Being single doesn't reduce our responsibilities...because we really did take vows, have consequences. However, it sure can seem like it...especially if you didn't know to POJA for the health of your marriage and the intimacy of your relationship.

Learning how to partner, which includes negotiating, acting from care and protection is a lot different than parenting. I believe a major urge to be single when you are not comes from choosing to perceive your partner as a parent.

You can't change his perception. You sure can demonstrate the difference.

Again, goes to healthy boundaries...where your marital home isn't a crash pad for single friends...having other adult males in the house is a threat to YOUR fidelity...and you having relationships with these single members of the opposite sex (through your H) isn't healthy, either.

Stuff for you to know...the more you know, the more you can understand your signals...your emotions...which warn you of danger to what you prize most.

UA can be taking walks together, playing cards, and yes, dating, too. I love how you offered the rodeo...go anyway, 'k? Be safe, go with girlfriends...first choice to H.

There are no sacrifices to make...remember this. Dr. Harley strongly advises against either of you sacrificing. Read The Policy of Joint Agreement...POJA (there, I gave ya one)...and see how damaging sacrificing really is...and how healthy marital boundaries actually free you more than doing the all or nothing (married versus single) approach.

Hope this helps.

LA

I'm glad I made the right choice in not letting him stay. He didn't sound too happy that I turned him down. I actually texted him about twenty minutes ago that said I'd love him to stop by, but that I didn't think it was a good idea for him to stay over.
What I meant by sacrifice is the moving situation. I told him I would compromise to move in between so I could still be close to my parents, but he is adamant about Seattle OR Portland, nothing in between. I suppose compromise is a better word that sacrifice in this case. In his POV though, it would be a sacrifice.

I did still go to the Rodeo. I went with my brother's wife, then out for a drink with my dad. I hate having to answer the question, "Where is your hubby tonight?" It seems people especially notice my wedding ring lately too. Everything reminds me of my husband and the fact that he isn't at home.

Did I mention he is staying with one of his friends who still lives with his parents? I don't think that is healthy.He wanted to take one of the dogs to stay with him, too. I told him absolutely not. He can come spend time with them, but he is absolutely not removing them from their home or from each other.

Talking or "typing" really helps! Thank you!

I am so frustrated with the fact that he wants to "fall in love with me again" but is not making any efforts or steps with Undivided Attention toward fixing what needs to be fixed. I asked him if he wanted to go camping at the beach Friday night and take our boxer. He told me he'd see. He was thinking about going to either Portland or Seattle to hang out with one of his friends...one of the ones who causes problems to begin with!

Counseling is tomorrow at 6.

Thanks for venting here, DNS...

Think smaller, maybe? Go for a walk, a cup of coffee; accumulate an hour a day of UA...that's a lot when people are distracting a lot in between.

Small bites are still bites...they count. Seems like hanging out is the key...hang out at a park, a pool hall...what was it you guys did when you dated to begin with?

I'm still not convinced ('cuz that's me) that there wasn't an event which precipitated this...

Might not have seem traumatic to you, could be to him...a family incident? Some loss of a large expectation? Something that didn't come to pass or passed?

Moving to a new home, job, transitions can be terrifying and "stupid" show or share...I used the quotation marks because I know they are not stupid. Nothing in us humans really is stupid, 'k?

How is your talk time going? Connection in writing or on the phone...brings presence with it.

LA

Well, we went to counseling last night. We were there for about an hour and forty five minutes. I honestly don't know if it went good or bad.
The ball is in his court.
He wants me to move to Portland and that is why he left...to show me he is serious and he is taking a stand. He will not compromise on somewhere in between and is not willing to work on any other issues until I move. He says he is being stubborn and he knows it.

Wow. Why would I want to move with someone who just up and left me to get me to leave with him? I am so insecure about our relationship now then I ever was.

You don't know if it went good or bad? What does that mean?

What did you get out of it? What was your experience?

You heard your H gave you an ultimatum and you chose not to comply. Wasn't a POJA'd decision by him.

His ultimatum is a selfish demand. However, what aren't you factoring in as your own priorities?

Is staying near your family a higher priority than your marriage?

Is fear more important to you than love? Not his love for you...your love for you and the vows you made to yourself on your wedding day?

Does your family come between you both? What's your half of that?

Why not negotiate really healthy boundaries for living in Portland together? If it's your job, which represents FS, then how to negotiate around that?

Is he willing to support both of you as part of his idea of why Portland is the place for his marriage to thrive?

What did MC say to both of you? The way you communicate with each other and identifying IBs?

I guess I don't understand how you're forthcoming and committed and now, I don't get that. I get you not saying your stuff and just repeating his, maybe?

C'mon, DNS. You're more honest than that!

LA

It went good because the counselor gave my husband a lot to think about, it went bad because he isn't thinking about it, and he told me that. The counselor told my husband that it sounds like he doesn't want it to work. He is not taking the steps to make it work.

Honestly, I'm not understanding your last e-mail.
He left our marital home because he is going to move with or without me and he isn't willing to be committed to our marriage unless I do move. Are you saying you think I should move? I've thought this through and through. If I do move, in 8 months, I don't want to resent him for making me move. That isn't healthy either. If I move, that is a win-lose situation. I want him to live in a healthy environment for him, but it doesn't have to be Portland. We can move a half hour north to be in a bigger city and out of the county, which is what he really wants.

Its not just my job we would have to negotiate around. Its a family too. We wanted to have a family - at least he did at one point. We are within a 5 mile radius of his family and mine and lots of help with a family. In Portland, our child would be in day care, which is not only expensive, but they are losing bonding time with both our families. Am I wrong to want that for our children?

I want us to work more than anything, but him leaving me to get his way, bullying me to go, is not convincing me that I will have a secure relationship in Portland either.

What does this have to do with being honest? Not trying to be rude or unthankful, I am just confused by your last post.

DNS,

I was cranky and reactive when I read your post. That was me. I taking in more of other people's stuff right than is healthy for me. That's me doing.

Seeing your chosen perspective that this MC session was about your H, his stuff, and his refusal...when you're paying for it, you're half the marriage and you have your own lessons and experience seemed like a turnaround.

You don't have children. You can choose not to have children for two years to work on your marriage.

You cannot resent your H for making you move because you KNOW you choose to do it or not. Family is an issue...it's a common marital issue. You seeing it as support and him seeing it as destructive...does he feel constantly ridiculed for his choices, judged, compared by either your family or his? Does he feel like a failure to them?

Your part in your marriage is to put him before your own family. It is...and if you moved back because you needed to be closer to them, to be around them, then that is your part, too.

Hey, you're talking to someone here who moved to Arkansas before she was even married to be with her DH...and married after one month of arrival. Spent twelve years there, away from all family, friends...and had her third son.

We make our choices...my DH and I both regretted him taking that job...and in other ways, it enabled us to get our heads on straight...and not.

Where you are isn't as important as keeping your own commitments...and if you are willing to work two years to recover your marriage before bringing children into it, then that's farsighted and reasonable.

I would first find out why it has to be Portland...if he needs to be that far from what he sees as his misery, then please don't discount it. If it is because of someone in Portland, be aware of that.

I could have resented (and I'm sure I did) my DH for his choice...because I chose that perspective, that victimhood. I don't regret it at all now, even for the traumas we experienced as a family, my children and ourselves during that time. See the resentment drops off immediately when I own my choices.

Yours would also. I wouldn't want to stay married to someone who discounted or dismissed what I was saying...that I am miserable and I do feel judged, talked down to, under-estimated and trapped...not by my spouse but by my family and hers.

What if a half-hour away isn't far enough?

I don't know...there's more to this story...because I first perceived he left to be single, and he didn't move to Portland without you. He's hung around...now he went to MC...he didn't move to Portland to be single is all I can conclude. The moving back and forth is a true hardship...it's a life trauma rarely the young feel as they make these choices...the trauma remains real and catches up to us.

Was he enthusiastic about moving back? Was he really factored into every step along the way, his stuff being granted as much weight as yours? Did you act at all in disregard for what he expressed he wanted? Or didn't want?

Hey, you could have done everything perfectly and the very fact you wanted to be closer to your family may be perceived as him not being enough, never being enough for you.

Not in your control...tell me your real intentions for your recent moves, what was the joint goal, what were guys were striving for...be honest as you can.

Was he very enthusiastic about moving back in order to start a family? And when he got back, all the crud piled up again...because our FOO (family of origin) doesn't leave us...we take it inside us, with us...our challenges...and mostly we try to heal ourselves alongside our spouse. Maybe he thought he could handle it, that he'd learned new skills, healthier boundaries and enforcements...and he still can.

If he wasn't enthusiastic about taking on the doubled responsibilities of being a father, and he was happy you were happy about the idea (big difference), then what he expected didn't come to pass which can triple the failure. Living in Portland may be his way of saying he's not ready yet...he's scared and angry at himself...and lost, too.

Marriage doesn't mean a secure relationship. It's our best shot at security...learning to hold ourselves to our vows, even when we are rife with fear, anger, pain...we can make it safe for our spouses to share their stuff...and we make it unsafe when we take their stuff ahead of ours or ours ahead of theirs.

If you're seeing him as a problem, then you aren't in reality. He has issues which need to be addressed, and so do you. You guys have equal choice, power and responsibility. You also have human limits. I guess the switch from not wanting to be married to wanting to be married and live far away was a switch for me.

Sorry I missed that the first time. Btw, what I hate most in life is moving, divorce and death, in that order. That's my stuff which affects my advice.

You know when we make our partner the problem, we feel temporary relief from us not being the problem, and then longer-lasting fear for having no control over the problem.

Which is why I advise people to not make anyone a problem...humans have problems. They aren't one.

LA