Y'all are asking some hard questions...

sounds familiar

jayne, I think if you didn't want support with this, if you didn't see how this doesn't fit what you want, if you didn't KNOW that you were ready for the questions, ready to stand up for yourself and your kids and your marriage, you would've minimized it and not posted about it.

I know how hard it is to look at this. I am so glad that you are getting stronger where you are willing to.

Don't you think it's possible, that it's ...

I *know* how this sounds, but really, hear me out and consider the possibility, that it's my fault for starting it, and that if *I* controlled *my* anger, then he wouldn't have an anger problem at all?

And a few years ago this did come up in MC. H was worse, and MC helped him see that wasn't acceptable... I agree what he did today wasn't acceptable either, but neither was what I did.

If I rented a hotel room for a week, I'd miss this trip with these interviews.

Can I say something truly 'unacceptable'? I know there are men here who are wonderful men. But I would like to suggest that the majority of men who come here are (1) here because they're facing losing their wife or (2) here because they are MORE emotional and in tune with feelings than the average man.

Hear me out. IMO, and in my experience, men are raised by women. They are taken care of. They are told not to worry about stuff because their mom will take care of it all. They are told that they are obliged to win. Thus, when they marry, and they get 'stuck' with a woman who expects them to actually interact, all that touch feely crap, they retreat. To protect themselves.

The women have advanced themselves to where they are working and also still taking care of the house and their husbands. But the men are still, for 80% of the men I know, still operating under the belief that the woman takes care of the man, the children, and the house.

But where is the woman supposed to come up with the HOURS every day to accomplish all that? So when the woman starts questioning things, the man doesn't have any framework of reference to judge it by. So the man and the woman start sparring.

How to agree? By communication.

Wow, interesting.

I certainly agree about the need for communication. I've always said my top EN is Conversation. The second might be H&O, which you can't have without Conversation anyway.

So, shall I attempt Conv., maybe starting with an apology and stating what is unacceptable to me? Or shall I just clam up and give up?

Come on, hon. You know the answer to that.

Well he came into the bedroom, did all his getting-ready-for-bed stuff without saying a word... I was just watching him without saying anything, to see if he'd say *anything*. Not a word. He even got in bed and laid down and closed his eyes before I finally asked if he was gonna say anything. He sad no. I said "What you did was unacceptable but what I did was unacceptable too." (I meant to say it the other way round but messed up. Oh well.) He said "I'm sorry for what I did." I said something like I find it hard to believe he's sincere when he doesn't say anything until I ask. I tell him how frustrated I get when he won't communicate. He doesn't say anything. I ask if he's going to, and he says no. So I ask him to leave. He gets out of bed with this smirk that I hate, and takes his pillow and leaves.

*sigh*

Now what do I do? Is there any point in ever trying to talk to this guy?

And if not, then it's gonna be pretty awkward when we drive all day Sunday. I don't really want to be acting like that with the kids in the back.

Boundaries. I need'em.

Can I state my need for some open communication, as a boundary? What would be my action when he chooses not to communicate?

Thanks cat... I took so long typing my response, I missed your post. Yes I know, clamming up is not supposed to be the answer... but... sheesh! I'm not sure whwhat to do instead...

One other thing I said, that I forgot to mention: I also said that he could say that he wouldn't have done what he did if I hadn't done what I did... but then I could say I wouldn't have done what I did if he would just have communicated.

So I've tried talking about it, but not starting out with as nice an apology as Soolee suggested.

Thoughts? Input? Criticism?

You are not perfect, none of us are. What I do if we fight, we dont much anymore but a few years back, is if I am the outburst one, I let it cool off for a few hours. Then I approach him and pretend I am a cat and mew and paw him and meou really loud to make him laugh, like I am a cat in distress. He usually starts laughing with tears in his eyes. And it is over after we hug.

It is too hard to talk issues after a fight. You have to write down the marital issues that "never seem to get solved and keep causing problems" and then a few days later bring them up one by one. In the meantime use lota love and humor to heal any hurts from the fights.

And you got too many kids, jobs, worries, money pressures, and now a MOVE??? I would be very angry and upset all the time with all that pressure. I would maybe lash out or break stuff.

Why again do you have to sacrifice for his job? I forgot the reason...

" He said "I'm sorry for what I did." I said something like I find it hard to believe he's sincere when he doesn't say anything until I ask. I tell him how frustrated I get when he won't communicate. He doesn't say anything. I ask if he's going to, and he says no. So I ask him to leave. He gets out of bed with this smirk that I hate, and takes his pillow and leaves."

Jayne you did not accept his apology here. He cannot win. If you demand him to talk when YOU WANT HIM TO TALK< he wont like it. Why get him to talk at all??? YOU can talk to him instead.

Just think, instead of ever again demanding that he talk or demanding that he communicate, try this. If he clams up, just talk to him. Be kind, and talk yourself. You can talk and he can listen. Monitor the quality of your talk so it does not degrade or insult him or put him down but talk, talk, talk. YOU BE the one to talk! Dont demand him to talk then when he does talk dont say you dont believe his apology. You are putting him up against the wall in your anger and resentment.

I would write down 100 reasons you resent him. See why. Then deal with those on your own first. You gotta quit letting this hidden or overt resentment kill your marriage and make him clam up more.

If a man cannot win with you (or me) he will eventually withdraw. You are frustrated when he wont communicate but he is hurt. People dont talk when they are hurting. You could have said thank you to his apology and laughed and tossed a pillow at his head and maybe had a nice pillow fight.

If you want him to communicate you cannot act that way. If you have deep resentments at him for some reason, you have to start telling him before you become totally hostile and then take things out on him.

This is from my experiance so you can take it or leave it.

Well I have job security and he doesn't... but he actually *likes* his job, and where I work is bad and getting worse. A lot of ppl are leaving, even really high up ppl. In fact the 2nd in command here is leaving... to be the president at the best closest place to H's new job!

So that's one of the places I'll be visiting next week. Neither of the places I'm going to actually have positions open... but with everything that's going on, with the huge interest in the place H is going to, there's money that's becoming available plus I bring with me some selling points. So it actually looks like these ppl are going to try to create a position for me. Which is why I really don't want to risk anything.

Yes H's job is the motivation for all this, but it looks like it's going to be so very much better for me than where I am also. So it was a little unfair I suppose to tell him I'm just doing this for his job...

It is really amazing, though, that of the two places on this entire planet that H would want a job at, he gets an offer plus someone from my workplace is going to be in charge at a place nearby. Also, when things were going so bad a few monthes ago, they actually got bad enough that I reported them. Before, I was just suffering in silence. By reporting, ppl learned explanations for certain things... including this guy who's moving... and one of his last actions here was to defend me.

It's as if all this bad stuff is starting to line up for good... all things work together for good...

Just what happened today isn't good.

When things get out of control go to him and cuddle up and nudge him. Dont say a word except maybe "sounds". Use kindness and laughter to get thru tough times in life. When there is stress, break it with laughter or something, anything but fighting.

Try it next time things build up...It really helps and is better than fighting.

You are right, and this often does work for us... but right now we're both mad. I don't want to cuddle up to him if he can't even have some words come out of his mouth.

I am calming down though I spose... life is awfully short to hold grudges...

This from Al Turtle's website: (It's ok to quote small sections, isn't it?)

"I hear that huge level of frustration. I've had it. The mistake I used to make is that I would blame my partner for my frustration. Really dumb thinking I used to do. If I am frustrated, it is my doing. Better check out my paper on Healing Frustrations and on Boundaries. "

Frustration, exactly what I've been feeling. Boundaries, what I may need.

I never looked at it as, if I'm frustrated then it's my doing. Really? Wow, that's something to think about. So I can't blame H for this? I guess I am kinda acting like, if H would only do what I'm sure needs doing (communicating) then all would be well. I'll read that article.

jayne,

I have a little different perspective on this, and I'm going to be really straight with you. Your frustration did not give you the right to break something. Your outburst didn't give him the right to push you. You aren't responsible for what he did. And he's not responsible for what you did. You both made a choice....a bad choice, and you're both completely and wholly responsible for your choices. If you want to know what I would do....and how to set a boundary around this...for what it's worth....here's my suggestion:

First....you address your own issue. "H, what I did was wrong and I feel really bad about it. I know that I have to do better when I'm dealing with frustration, and I promise explore that. Breaking things is unacceptable and it shows clearly that I have some personal work to do when it comes to anger management. What's happening to us right now is really stressful and it's important that I can talk to you and that I know you're listening. I'm sorry I didn't find a better way to communicate that. Please forgive me."

THEN....you address what he did without judgement and set your boundary: "When you put your hands on me in violence and anger, it's scary and painful. It's not something that I can or should tolerate, and I will file assault charges if it ever happens again."

And you need to MEAN it....because if you don't....it's nothing but an empty threat and you're just setting yourself up to be a battered wife. If he balks or threatens you further....you need to separate from your husband and negotiate anger management from a safe distance. If he sulks or withdraws for a while....let him....give him the time he needs to process it....but don't back down.

The stuff that just happened in your house may not seem that bad to you....but I promise you that it is very serious and minimizing it or justifying it....on either part....is a very dangerous game that will almost ensure that it will happen again in some form. It sounds like both of you are very hot headed and I would really recommend Steven Stosny's "Compassionate Power" series to help you both understand why you do it.

(((((((((((((((jayne)))))))))))))))))

Hi Star,

Glad you came on to help!

Jayne, see if you can deal with stress differently.

And I ask you to explore and explain what you mean when you say "if only he communicated more, everything would be alright"....

What do you want him to say? What do you want him to communicate? That issue about the daycare, you both were not communicating correctly. One of you needed to take full responsiblity for the daycare and GET IT HANDLED. There is no excuse for not communicating well about it. even a couple words would have helped, like you could have made the decision and let your h know what you decided and leave him out of it.

When you are in stressed out circumstances is not the time to start LEARNING how to communicate about daycare issues. I am sorry I did all this too years ago I know how painful it all is.

But you two are taking your stress out on each other. tHis is the worst thing to do.

Hi Stella!!!!

edited to add: It's really late here y'all....gotta head off to bed. I'll check back tomorrow (((((((((jayne))))))))))

Thanks star for giving it to me straight.

I'm not yet at the point where I can sincerely say the apology you mention, but I'm getting there. I'll probably be there by morning. I'm very opposed to apologies that aren't sincere, or that are just in response to something the other person said first. So I won't say it until I mean it, but I see the reason behind it, and I'm almost there.

So, do you really think I should say that about filing charges? I really wonder if my threshold for this behavior is too high, it seems like most healthy ppl have a much lower tolerance than me. And I hear the things I'm saying (typing) and the things I think of typing but don't, and it sure sounds like ... well you know.

But really, file charges, for a shove? I'm not trying to talk my way out of it, I'm trying to do a reality check, cus it seems I need one. Like you said, I can't say it unless I mean it... and there were times when I was a kid that the cops had to be called, and it was for my step-dad doing a whole lot worse than shoving... and it was a whole big mess then, very disruptive, not to be entered into lightly. Is that crazy thinking?

FWIW during the argument I did tell him that if he grabbed me again I'd call the cops. He let go and didn't touch me again, but he said he'd call the cops for me breaking that plate.

If I'm not sure I can sincerely say I'll file assault charges next time, what can I say instead?

Is "Compassionate Power" a series of books or lectures?

You're right, I wasn't completely making an effort to communicate either, and I was trying to put all the blame on H. I know there was more I could've done, like talk when he was more open to talking. I didn't want to admit that.

I wanted him to communicate with me verbally, when I wasn't preoccupied with other things. He prefers to communicate details over email, and yes in fact he did cc me on a couple of the emails re. childcare, just the details were so far down I glanced at the email and didn't scroll all the way down.

Yes I definitely had my part in this.

ETA: I just remembered, the one thing that made me most angry and frustrated: Was that I am practically certain he told me to ask her about childcare, and he claims he never told me to and that he thinks I shouldn't have asked, so it's my problem to deal with. I just don't know how to deal with someone who is lying. I feel like there's absolutely nothing I can do to reason with someone like that.