EWS took all and each of the advice that was given to him by the members on this site. I wanted to share with you how I felt when he did these things and then how we handled each situation or are continuing to handle it. We are taking all advice from Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs.

First let me explain that I intended to divorce EWS before the EA began. The EA lasted less than a month before EWS found out, but was deep since this had been my high school sweetheart. We had lots of memories over a five year period we dated. I even feel that some of the reasons I fell in love with EWS was I identified him with this old boyfriend. EWS heard about this perfect boyfriend for years, then 11 years into the marriage EWS found and read my diary which contained details of my relationships from high school on. He indicates that from that time on he had no trust for me whatsoever and started to lose respect also. But most of all he developed a hatred for this old boyfriend so that when he reappeared EWS took it harder than if it had been someone else. I never met with the old boyfriend, he lives in another state, but I did write him detailed emails reminding him of our "dates" and special times. EWS found each of these emails and confronted me about them. We then moved from both being in a state of withdrawal to a state of conflict. EWS moved out for several weeks, researched on the internet, found this site and began posting here.
Now about exposure? I don't know why and maybe someone can explain it to me, but I had no shame about this EA. I was telling everyone I worked with, showing his picture, etc. I had discussed the fact that I was planning to divorce EWS for so long most of my friends felt that I already had started the paper work. My boss made the statement to me "You deserve someone better" when I went in for my yearly evaluation. I guess I have already checked out of the marriage, I don't know.
EWS did come home and destroy the only copies of our wedding pictures, wedding license, a picture of me in my wedding dress, all the cards and letters I had sent him over 25 years. We can not replace them. When I came home and found the mess, I had no feelings at all. I was already in withdrawal and didn't care. To me it was like destroying the evidence, there are no pictures left, so this didn't really happen. Unfortunately, EWS has had several angry outbursts and many of my things have been destroyed over the years. It has caused me to detach from material things and I don't replace the items he breaks. Until another family member moved in I had no pictures on the walls and no decorations up at all.
The next angry outburst EWS made was telephoning the OM and standing over me trying to get him to answer, yelling at me and leaving OM an angry message. EWS is over 6 feet tall so this was a series incident that I am having trouble with. He terrorized me for over 30 minutes. Then came the removal of the modem. Yes, he did use disrespectful judgments. He removed it before I got up one morning, came into our room, told me to have a good day, he could tell already it wasn't going to be and left. When his car left I jumped up ran downstairs to see what punishment I had earned. All over our house were notes about my EA online and telling me to end it. These notes were posted where our children could see them. Then I saw the modem was gone. He returned a few hours later to force me to write an email to OM ending the affair, which I had already done, two days earlier, but he wanted to watch me do it. I asked him to tell me exactly what to say so that he would be happy with it, then he forced me to call OM and say the same thing. Afterwards he did not feel any better, because he had forced me. Afterwards he set up an online account for my cell phone so he could view all calls and texts. He found each call I had made to OM or he had made to me and posted it on our family calendar. When we went to our counseling session we discussed these events. If we had use the Policy of Joint Agreement to handle these incidents we would have had different outcome. I have agreed to let him keep track of all cell phone calls, he can view them at any time. I no longer contact OM, or even indulge in any other web sites but this one. I am doing these things to help EWS feel better and he is. His angry outbursts have stopped completely. I could not even ride with him in the car it was so bad and non stop anger. That has stopped also. EWS has committed to changing his behavior and meeting my emotional needs. I am having trouble accepting it. I have been conditioned so long, 25 years, to a certain expectation. EWS would not even greet anyone, any morning when he woke up. He had a tendency to leave the house, never telling anyone that he was leaving, where he was going or when he would return. I would have to look in the driveway for his car. He never came home on Friday nights, but stayed over at a friends house. I have discovered since this all began that a woman EWS has worked with for 17 years would come by and visit with him too. She was meeting his emotional needs that I was not, so I guess he was in an EA also.
Now he is changing this behavior and it is very confusing. I find myself treating him as I did before and this is hurting him. His number one need was affection and I find it hard to show that. I wonder if we are not rushing all this.
I posted this already, but will say it again. I do not feel love for EWS any longer. I am regaining my self worth and do feel better about myself. I am committed to the six to nine months of recovery and counseling. If you have not read - YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE IT ANY LONGER- read it. It is great follow up to DR. Harley's method. I will post as we continue this journey. We see the counselor on Friday afternoons. I will try to post Monday the outcome. We have chosen one of the counselors from this web site.

WifeEWSII,

I know how upsetting the AO can be. Both H and I have used them against one another during the roller coaster of this Infidelity and even during issues regarding our children (mine from 1st M).

I'm glad to see that you are getting counseling and that you have read so much. No one deserves to experience abuse. If we can take wthat EWS has said regarding his love for you, I hope that he continues in counseling for his AO and abusive behavior.

I can totally understand the desire to go back to a place where you felt better (i.e. old bf). But usually we fantasize it to be something that it really wasn't or wouldn't last if it came to full fruition.

Perhaps you can take some steps to fall back in love with EWS. Work on that with your counselor. And work to gain your self love back as well. It sounds like EWS loves you, he just needs to get real with himself on his own behaviors that hurt this M as well.

Good luck!

OnlyUCan I appreciate the fact you have posted in our thread. You help bring a new perspective to our problem.

My W feels as if I am pushing her. The counselor also feels as if I am pushing. Which is not my intention at all. I know an abrupt behavior change can be a reason for concern. The behavior changes have been going on for a while though. They were just subtle changes that were easily overlooked. The AO's were becoming less and less frequent. Self control is sometimes very difficult to achieve if the person is not willing to change. I have even quit smoking for a couple weeks now mostly cold turkey. I have not had an AO for at least a month now. Not even in traffic while driving which was my favorite place for AO's. I do not expect my W to even trust that these changes would last for an eternity. She will have to make the decision that I have changed over the long haul.

As much as I don't want to carry on about the past I do have one issue that I would like to make very clear to my W. The relationship with this OW my W mentions was merely a friendship.
I know I have heard that opposite sex friendships do not work and eventually lead to affairs. Well I am here to prove that theory wrong. I have know this OW for 17 years in the workplace. The first time we worked together was for 10 years. Our company then sold and lots of folks went everywhere including this OW. I did not have contact with her at all for almost 4 years. We were then united again as co-workers at another company. The OW may be having an EA with me and I may have even made comments that could have led the OW to think that we were having some kind of affair. But that is the farthest thing from my mind with the OW. I have been in situations to have fulfilled an affair with her. But my W is more important to me than an affair with OW. I may very well fill some needs of this OW. But only because the OW chooses to feel this way. I have now wrote a letter to the OW stating the fact I can not see her anymore without my W's presence. My W has read these letters I wrote to her because I cc'd them to my W.

Mr. EWS:

Just as some food for thought, some of the things that you said in your post are FOG speak for someone in an EA. You may very well feel that you did not cross whatever moral line you have within yourself, but the mere fact that you think the OW "could" have considered it an EA spells out trouble to me. I heard my H say many of the things that you have mentioned and that did not soften the blow to me or lighten the load of pain.

Perhaps it would be best to acknowledge this as a mistake and be accountable for it instead of "minimizing" it in hopes that your W may be less hurt. For me at least I did much better when my H would admit that it was wrong and be truly repentant in not wanting to allow it to happen again.

You've done well in sending a NC letter to the OW stating that your W is your #1 priority.

Stay the course and keep working on "showing" her that you are the changed man you say you are and over time she will see the man that she fell in love with.

Actually onlyUcan you are right. I thought about it yesterday a lot. I really never thought of it as an EA. But it was. The OW was meeting a need I had. Recreational Companionship. The OW was enjoying the same things I was. I realized something was going on when I sent the letters to the OW about ending our relationship. I just never figured out what it was that she was meeting. Now that my W and I are spending more time together that need is getting filled. Well I am going to end this because my W just got up and I want to spend some time with her before I got to work.

Thanks again onlyUcan.

Mr&MrsEWS,

How 'bout an update?

My hope for your marriage is with all the new information you both have acquired you'll put in place healthy, loving, protective marital boundaries...and experience a new marriage.

Protecting our weaknesses builds us up, too. Part of redemption, intimacy and knowing our half of the marriage is equal to the other half.

LA

LovingAnyway,
EWS and I are in what's called the honeymoon period. After 25 years of marriage I have been here before. It usually lasts 2 - 3 months before all that independent behavior comes back. EWS has been controlling his Angry Outbursts, but past behavior has done the damage. The kids and I are all "Walking on Eggshells" from the book "You Don't Have To Take It Anymore". It means we are all conditioned to EWS AO and expect them, so we act accordingly. We only have two children left at home and they are both adults.

I would love to write and say I feel great, but the truth is that each week as we go to the sessions and discuss I feel worse. It's like I had forgotten most of the stuff over 25 years and now I just very angry about it. I can see EWS trying and he writes emails professing his love, but I still feel no love. Only anger and resentment.

One of the exercises to help us bond is looking at old wedding pictures etc. EWS destroyed those; so again that helped me detach.

I am very involved in my job as a music director for a large school. I am so happy when involved with my students, music etc. But so sad and withdrawn when with EWS that I fantasias about living alone.

I feel that marriage counseling would have worked with less years of abuse and history, but 25 years are hard to work with. There is so much water under the bridge.

Sorry

Thank you, MrsEWS, for sharing.

Gotta ask you in breaking the cycles of your life...have you chosen to not walk on eggshells? Have you chosen to act from respect, enforce healthy boundaries and not fulfill your expectations through manipulation?

I ask because I don't hear you saying you KNOW you have equal power to your H. Yes, you have the habit of walking on pins and needles...and yes, you have the choice not to...very much what Catperson has experienced in 30 years of marriage and is changing, now.

Choosing to act based on possible response PERPETUATES the cycle...it's your same dance steps in expectation of his same dance steps. You only control your own steps. Changing them CHANGES the dance.

I believe you've had a lot of information about abusive cycles...have you seen how powerful your half is? Have you seen where the cycle cannot exist without your consistent actions based on possible response, instead of on your own code?

Free yourself, your H, your children from this...you have that power.

I can imagine the longer you continue to self-betray, the worse you will feel. It's not based on what others do or not do...it's based on your continued choice to DJ, your choice of perspective. I'm not slamming you...I desperately want you to feel the exhiliration of freedom and allow MrEWS' love deposits to actual get into your love bank.

Your choice to see your life as done to you is a terrible shield...and it's not real...it's blocking intimacy, love deposits and happiness...I understand you choosing it, I just strongly advise you not.

WhoDat on MB said, "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die." That's self-betrayal, too.

And it's the main impetus in the recipe for affairs. Gimble said "An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect."

The really hard thing about downward spirals is that they seem to have no beginning, no ending, can't get a handle on a spinning circle. The great thing about cycles is if you remove any one part, the entire cycle stops. Have you broken down the parts of your cycle?

Would you consider taking new pictures of your marriage today? Dressing up, making it something to include the kids...something to look at and say, "Here is where I choose to put my heart. Here, right now, is not full of the past or the future. It's right now and abundant."

You are both equal...you always have been and will be. You are as powerful as your partner...and how well do you think you've learned to partner, really? Anger and resentment you're experiencing can be very much from parenting, not partnering.

Where your mind dwells determines what you treasure. You're back to treasuring fantasy...imagining what isn't...and I believe with all my heart and experience, that if you lived alone, you would indeed continue this very cycle with others...for when we don't change our half, we re-experience, again and again...and only then do we realize our power...and the crushing regret and remorse can devastate you for years...for it is undoable, because you made it your treasure.

Choose reality, MrsEWS...honestly...you can do this...it frees you with real freedom, has ownership, amends, redemption, transformation...and only takes you removing one part of the cycle to break it all to heck.

You can do a resentment timeline...you can do communication exercises...you can do non-verbal communication exercises...you can choose to free yourself of what YOU created, nurtured, felt protected by and were not protected at all...you were killing yourself emotionally and your marriage. That's what resentment does...it's a signal we get when WE are choosing the most destructive perception...when we are dwelling where we have no control...either focused on others or in fantasy...it's to bring us back, not to push us apart.

When used in either extreme, it's toxic. And we are doing that to ourselves. If you practice real boundaries, marital and personal, and healthy enforcements--predetermined and progressive--you WILL be safe...not fantasy safe. Not causing harm to others as you have in that fantasy...and to your dear self.

All things come to pass...and the water under the bridge is gone. You and the rest of the humans on this planet have right now...and you're not dwelling in your now except at school. When you're not there, you skip into the future (where you have no control and all fantasy) or dwell in the past...and your choice to do this hands you the same emotions again and again AS IF the past were HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

That's not real. That's you self-manipulating to protect yourself...even as you are actually stabbing yourself again and again and pointing at your H for doing it.

He's not. Not right now.

Choose better...different. Show your kids your changes, your new knowledge, your new choices to not walk on eggshells, to act from your code, not based on possible response...and pass on the joy and freedom and true responsibility you'll be living in, instead of the fantasy shackling you right now.

Whatever outcome comes...you will be able to choose your results...that which you take with you. If you own your own half, embrace your limits, and respect others' power and limits are equal to yours...you can thrive, anyway.

Best way to redeem that which only you have done, and not regret, not struggle helpless with remorse...please, you matter. Believe this.

LA

MrsEWS,

I'll start by talking with you for a bit. LA used my favorite quote about resentment. It is my favorite for a reason...it is true. Your resentment has poisoned you.

I will also say that I find it interesting, that your H has had to deal with your attraction to OM for decades now and his method of dealing has been AO's and then withdrawal. Not effective strategies but common.

You on the other hand have withdrawn from the marriage, had an affair, and clearly think it is all your H's fault. To put it very simply, you are wrong. The state of this marriage and yes even some of his anger is due to YOUR behaviors.

What you clearly didn't know and perhaps had little reason to suspect was that all along he wanted you for his W, and yes he loved you. You by your own admission have cut him no slack. His statement is that you have said many hateful things to him. Now is that somehow better than his anger??? Not really.

Here is the final thought for you today. YOu view the OM as some ideal guy, well he is not. If he were he would not be having marriage issues, he would not be having an EA with a married woman, he would have chosen more wisely for a mate apparently. Plus, you carry so much baggage that even if you do divorce EWS, you won't be good marriage material for a long time.

My suggestion, keep working on you, keep focusing on your issues, and spend a lot less time blaming your H for your decisions and behavior. You need to do this whether your marriage makes it or not.

Mr. EWS,

I don't know if your counselor has pointed this out to you yet or not. But anger is a secondary emotion, it is driven by: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc. These drivers are primary emotions. What you need to do rather than become angry or "fight" your anger is stop and reflect on what is REALLY driving your anger. Then address this issue. Are you in pain? Are you frustrated? Are you fearful? If you are any of these things, then go a level deeper and ask is there really anything you can do about these feelings? If not, learn to let them go.

I am both a lot older than you two and have been married longer. And what I see is expectations not well communicated, expectations that may not be reasonable, and lot of the most deadly of all love busters...the disrespectful judgement, DJ, for short.

You both would do well to stop the DJ's. I do hope that eventually you both will see the wisdom in fighting for this marriage. Your children may be ready to leave the house, but oddly they will depend more on you two now than ever before. Why? Because life is scary, people fail, and family is really the only ROCK kids have when the venture out to make their mark in life.

God Bless,

JL

Because JL is wonderful...I wanted to add something...

Did you ask your counselor about the difference between acting out and acting in?

AO's are demonstrating our emotions. There's no ownership in acting out our anger...not in body language, voice level, facial expressions, gestures...doesn't really get anger out of you, either.

May feel like it. Exercise changes our feelings, funnily enough.

Okay...acting in is creating resentment...like an action...taking offense, taking blame...and the same as acting out, there's no ownership, so no way to amend...acting in DOES hurt others and especially ourselves. So does acting out.

The healthiest way to process your emotions is to own them and state them (not demonstrate them out or in). It's connecting, an act of intimacy...and it's the key part of knowing your own stuff and sharing it...which IS intimacy.

Part of stating is separating you from your emotions. "I'm sad" is a healthy first step...the next level is, "I feel sad right now." Aligns it with the truth and your truth. "I feel angry right now" does also...next step, trace to know where the anger is coming from "My anger is coming from the time you did <blank>. I just triggered to that."

When we say we ARE sad, angry, happy...then self hears that's your being...who you are...which isn't accurate or possible. Your feelings are signals...they are valid...get the information from them...you'll find some pretty impossible beliefs behind them. Share what you find, own and share...and you will not be in a honeymoon period...you will be making different choices, therefore, changing your life.

I hope you'll accept many here are friends of your union, your marriage...pulling for both of you...and we've walked in your shoes (raising hand), both of them...not a "should" in the bunch...straight from experience and support of the complete, whole, marvelously made human beings you both are...in your very human marriage.

LA

OK, I'm Back

LA triggered something . I wanted to give you a concrete example of identifying and then handling something. Let's say that you are like me. I have a running conversation in the car with the people that are driving or is it AIMING around me. No cursing or even anger, I just talk. So as you can see I get frustrated when the light turns green and then everyone in the car ahead of me decides they need to vote if it is "a proper green." I really get angry if I am running late.

Well, if I can tell you this, then clearly I understand what is frustrating me, how people drive or don't drive. I cannot fix that so I "chat" with them. My kids find it funny. But, the real frustrating things I can address. I hate being late. Solution, LEAVE earlier.

I also get tired of the usual indecision at 4 way stops. My solution: I become the traffic cop, and wave everyone else through. I have found I actually get through the intersection faster, if I simply wave the others through in "proper order" and then proceed, AND my blood pressure stays down.

I also get to airports early because I hate the frustration of having to sweat long lines, parking, and generally having to hurry.

My point. When you read the articles here start and take the questionaires, look at them as revealing to you both what "gets to you" and start to make plans to make alternative strategies, brainstorm with one another, help one another, work as a team, and you will find some amazing things happening. First you will be laughing more (yes I know at each other, but with good humor), you will be laughing at yourself as well, but you will also start to see the world through the other persons eyes and when you do that, amazing things happen.

Mrs. EWS if I could ask you to one thing, it would for you and the Mr. to sit down and really talk about his anger, and then the two of you start to come up with strategies that he can "willingly" employee. He appears to be making a lot of progress with this issue, so now you can help him. BUT!!!!!!!!

As you do this, start to think about your own anger and what drives it, and allow your H to sit with you and help come up with plans to address it as well.

Mrs. EWS he needs your help, and has for years.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Noticed I have not been talking about you two falling in love? Notice LA really hasn't focused on it either??? There is a reason for that. If you are interested one or the other of us will tell you what it is. But, for now please focus on helping one another.

PPS: Mr. EWS I'm willing to bet a lot of your anger is driven by your fear and frustration with respect to your ability to provide a secure financial situation for your family. I bet it actually bothers you more than it does the Mrs.

JL and LA I appreciate the two of ya'll adding to our thread.

I do have to come to the defense of my W. I read what ya'll wrote twice to get a grasp on all that was said. We have had years of anger in the household. I can clearly see the W is angry and resentful for not having the marriage she was hoping for. I do accept a lot of the blame for the bad times. Now she is seeing me as a totally different person and it is difficult for her to accept that this change in me is permanent. I expected this. She feels I may be manipulating her again to make her stay. But what she just realized yesterday is that a higher power than her or anyone else is what is driving me now. The resentment and anger I had towards my wife has been replaced with compassion, respect, care and protection for her. Do I want my M? Yes I am committed to making our M the best for both of us. Do I want love back in our M? Of course I do, but know that may never happen or be very slow to come.

As far as the AO's go, I have learned to replace the feelings of anger with values inside of me that make me feel better about myself. When I feel anger build I think of things that I have compassionately done for others. This stops the anger and allows me to focus on the real problem. I have come to grips for the most part with my anger and resentment I had towards my W. There are still a couple problem areas which cause me great anxiety and I am dealing with those the best I can. I could deal with them a lot better with some help from my W. I don't talk about them in counseling either. I really don't want to talk with my W about them either. Why? One because I have no control over them and two it causes more problems at this time between us. Maybe if our relationship gets stronger we can talk openly and candidly about them and come up with a mutually agreeable solution.

Marital boundaries. I can honestly say we have never set any. We don't have them now. Although I have self imposed my own set of marital boundaries on myself. I have disassociated myself from everyone in my past that I use to think were friends. Not because I thought they were influencing me to a certain degree, but because they don't share the same values I do. This is no longer good for my psyche and marriage. Now I just want to spend all the time I can get with my W. I enjoy coming home to her now. It feels good to tell her what my plans for the day are now. Before I would get angry with her for just asking. Now she doesn't have to ask. She knows where I am and what I am doing every second of the day. I discuss everything with her. I have left my second life behind and feel good about doing that. A lot of other marital boundaries that need to be set will require the both of us coming to an agreement on.

Financial support. As a man it bothers me very much if I can not provide for my family. I had started a business with a so-called friend of mine that I thought needed help in his later years. But unfortunately his motivation factor is so low that has caused problems with our business and in turn caused me financial difficulty. So this partnership is about to end and I am going to only look out for my family and myself. Right now though it is important for me to finish the contracts to be able to start a new business for myself. I am having to support my partner and family on what should only amount to one persons needs because my partner can not and will not do the work necessary to make this business venture a success. It is going to be very difficult for me when that day comes in a couple months to tell my partner adios. But I have set him up with a very lucrative contract that should carry him for another year. The helping of others by me has caused hardships in my family for years now and that is coming to an end now. My family and I should have been the ones enjoying the fruits of my labor and we will.

I do love my W very much. She is the most important person in my life and has a great influence on my well-being. I am committed to saving our marriage and will always stay committed to our marriage even if she does leave me. She will eventually see the changes I have made are permanent and are done with love for her. This is what drives me now and the renewed faith I have in God.

LovingAnyway,

EWS and I are considering changing counselors, we feel he may not have the experience to deal with us. He has avoided several issues in the last two sessions and gone on with his "method" which doesn't even really follow Dr. Harley. He has mentioned exercises for both of us, but then never finishes or explains. He really wants me to just forgive, forget and get on with it. It's not that easy. I have feelings I need to process and work through. I don't feel that happening.

The last session (Wed) we discussed the three types of marriages. None of which I or EWS would want. I will explain that at the end.

First the secular marriage - both partners meet each other's emotional needs, constantly working on it, a give an take situation. Couple may attend church but not participating in activities or sharing daily walk with Christ.

Second type - one partner filled with the spirit receives fulfillment from Jesus, until it overflows. (This is where EWS is ). This partner fills the other with the overflow so the relationship works. At times over the 25 years of marriage I have reached out through my love of Jesus to EWS. He has listened but believed that God watched down us most days but did not participate in our lives or that he didn't even look down. Now EWS has been saved so he sees things differently. Not just our relationship, but the one with other people including his children. He is seeing things through the eyes of Christ. Wonderful place I love that filling of the holy spirit. I used this to heal my wounds, weather EWS, my counselor, or the people reading this board want to understand that or not. I have had what EWS and I both agree to is 9 years we have been detached. 9 years to heal, get it together. etc. Now I have to change my projection of my future, which again, will take time. Change it to one with the possibility of EWS in it.

Third type of marriage - both partners filled with the spirit, love and serve Jesus, find happiness through Christ, not each other. And our counselor lost us when he said "You don't have to love each other, you will be happy through Christ".

Better idea Fourth type, not mentioned, both partners love each other and Christ. That's where EWS and I want to be. So we are looking for someone to try to take us to this point. Which will require my healing, and to heal I need time.

Now I have a question;
What is so great about the idea of marriage if it's not with someone you love? I read this site and feel that some of the people are in love with the "idea of marriage" and not with the person they are with. Have you grown old and forgotten what love feels like? Have you been so hurt you can't try again? What type of a person are you really? Let me explain;

As you read this site you will find an area where Dr. Harley writes about women who experience orgasm. He writes that women with high energy orgasm most times when they have sex, where as women with low energy don't alway orgasm, but this does not bother them. I also believe there are men out there that sex is not as important and having it daily is not a requirement in a relationship with them. These are the low energy men. Then there are men like EWS that have extreme sex drives. Our high energy man. This sex drive in both the men and women has other effects on their lives and relationships. I believe people like EWS and I demand more from life, our risky behavior gives us the courage to go for it. Our drive makes us what we are. EWS and I will not settle for what we have. We want more, in everything. He is seeking a change in work by working for himself, putting in more hours to gain financial success. He is going to church to increase his spirituality worth, he stopped smoking. Changes, changes. I have already said I have made these same changes over the last 9 years and now I am trying to help him with his change. However I feel that I have outgrown EWS. I have healed and want to go on and he is dragging me down. I feel that to now meet his need etc. I need to put everything I want on hold again and "mother" him through this. When I say what I want I do not mean the OM. He rejected me from the beginning. I was the only one in the EA. Over a month ago he wrote to both EWS and I and explained he was not interested in me. I continued to try to get his attention, but to no avail. I finally gave up.
I lean on my brother for the emotional support I need and have been doing this over two years. I really want to devote myself to my career now that the children are grown. EWS has admitted that until the OM showed up he had the same idea of divorce. We are both at a point where we want the most life can give us.

Mrs EWSII- no disrespect intended, but you sound a little foggy. In one sentence you said you needed time to heal and in another you said you have already healed.

And no one here thinks anyone should stay married if there is no love. The idea of MB is that love can be recaptured.

Mr. EWSII - I hope you will attend an anger management course. It is very difficult to change life long patterns without some counseling in anger management. Right now you feel like you are changing, but you may just be stuffing it.

And I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that you are trying to set your partner up with a lucrative contract, the same partner who is unwilling and unable to work hard on the business, and meanwhile your house has gone into foreclosure 5 times. YIKES!!!

Another question - is it the Mrs' brother who is living with you? And he is the one that is giving her most of her emotional support? How did he come to live with the two of you?

Believer we are in counseling and we do talk about my anger issues to a degree. I thought about the fact that things could be building up inside me but that doesn't appear to be happening. I have a job that requires physical labor most of the time and that may also help relieve some anger. Hey I can't really explain it either. In another post I explained that the anger issues had subsided over the past years. Probably has a lot to do with getting older and some issues just don't bother me in a way that causes me anger any longer. I do have a method of dealing with the anger and it appears to be working. I still have to control it to some degree but I don't feel like its building.

As far as the business goes the contract I am leaving my partner with is the company's contract. We have already begun work on the project. As a company he is locked into this contract for the duration whether I stay or not. It will be his to do how he pleases. Its a construction project and those all come to an end. We are merely subcontractors working for another subcontractor. Legally we are not even business partners. My partner owns the company outright. I am just an employee basically. I didn't legally become his partner knowing that he may very well not hold up his end of the bargain. I also didn't become a partner because I also felt my wife was trying to divorce me. I wasn't about to give her the house and my business too.

As far as my house goes it has been in foreclosure proceedings only twice in the last 6 years. Both times now due to businesses not making enough money. When we bought the house I worked 16 hours a day 7 days a week for 6 weeks to get the money needed for a down payment. The business I am in summer times are very lucrative for employees and owners alike. Our money woes are not do to me being a slacker. I may not be the best at running the business or choosing the correct business partner but I will bust my rear end to get a job done.

Dear Believer,
Yes, I am foggy. My angry, emotional abusive husband decided after 25 years of marriage to change. I am really at a loss, only even willing to consider it due to the fact that he's had a religious experience that was very strong. Otherwise I would have packed up and left already. Both of us over the last 5 sessions of counseling and spending the prescribed 15 hours in conversation have been very honest with each other. We both had planned to divorce the other within the next year. As you can see from EWS's business standpoint he admitted he didn't put the company in his name for this reason. When we have discussed the relationship and where we both were emotionally in this relationship on Easter Sunday they pretty much match. While EWS was living apart in April he had the religious experience and changed his mind about our marriage. He'll say he asked, etc. but the truth is he just came back home and started working to change my mind. At first I was terrified about being around him and wanted to leave. Did leave, then came back, had terrible fights with him. Finally, we were able to get these books on this site, start on counseling and "the program". When I talk of healing now I think about it on a much deeper level. I have healed enough to know I needed out of this relationship, I am not co-depended on EWS. I have healed enough to think positively and productively towards the future. I realize with help I can mend and have another relationship if I chose one. EWS is not there yet. He still bases all his feelings on ME, not himself. He still has no self worth. If we divorce he feels there will never be another relationship for him, he will never love again. Now here is a problem, he has to fight the women off. He is over 6 foot, blond, blue eyed, if I must say so myself, quite a catch. So I am going "Right" never love again. Whatever! But I am also watching him go through the same steps I did when I came to the realization that I wanted a divorce. I too turned to self help books, then religion. I am interested in seeing what EWS is going to do and how long this will last. No, EWS is not in anger management that is one reason I have doubt. Our counselor seems to be doing some of it, but then I am left out. I too think EWS is just stuffing it and it's going to blow. If that happens I won't be able to get to the lawyer fast enough.
EWS's business practices were my #1 Love Buster. He is not a business person and I had told him the next time he went into business for himself I would leave. Again, he knew how I would react and did it anyway. EWS says we have been if foreclosure 3 times since 02, but close every 6 months. In his first company he hired all his friends and family, paid them better than he did himself, gave them new vehicle's, health insurance etc. Then found it necessary to take money from my paycheck to cover his business expenses. When I found out I opened a separate account. But unlike the women I have been reading about in these books, I did it to protect me and the kids. I took over paying everything.
Now about my brother. I drug him into this due to EWS's AO. I was really afraid EWS was either not going to let me leave or at least follow and harass me if I did. I asked my brother who's spouse died 4 years ago to move in with me and when I moved out we would share living expenses. He agreed and moved in March of 07. He takes care of all my household chores and it's true you would think I would feel like I am in Heaven. But all I can do is wonder where I would be if he was not here now as I can not function with all this. Again, if EWS would have just stayed the same I would be in better shape. Now I am second guessing everything he does, trying to decide is this the new EWS or the old and how should I act. My brother is 16 years older than I and we have always been very close. He never had children and I stayed each summer with him as a child. He lived in another state so it was always fun. When my parents became to ill to take care of themselves my brother and his spouse moved back into our family home and cared for them. They left a beautiful home in Tucson to do this. When my brother's spouse died unexpectedly I tried to get him to come live with me then. We were states apart. Finally, his income did not match his needs and he moved in with me to share. EWS has been great about this. I can not say any unkind thing about that. My brother who is 61 has grown close to EWS and they talk too. My brother has also had the confidence of my children and kept up with what they are doing and told me. They have told him things they would never tell me. My brother is the only family I have left.
Finally, About love. I have posted in all of my posts that I no longer love EWS. I want to continue to say this. I feel I am healing for I do not feel the constant anxiety I had been feeling around EWS. But we have had an experience in the last two weeks which for me signify my real feelings for EWS.
EWS is not a conversationalist. He relies on me to communicate in all areas of life outside our home. I mean it! He stand silently by my side and says not a word. Usually I take right over and talk away. Two weeks ago we went to meet our son's girlfriend's parents. He has been dating her almost a year and so it was time. When we went into their house I greeted them and then became involved with their dog. Usually I am worried about EWS and run to his rescue. This time I let him burn. And burn he did. To say the least we will never go there again, had to leave quickly and argued the whole way home. It went very badly. EWS didn't understand that when I loved him I cared, now I just want to do my own thing and not think about his needs.
When a woman is in love the things he does are great! I argued with my dad about EWS until my dad was blue in the face. But it was always EWS is right and you are wrong. The eyes of love made me see things this way. Now I go, How could I have ever thought I could agree with this person? I don't like anything he does. The anger and resentment are fogging me up.

MrsEWS,

I find your post truly remarkable. I am not sure I have ever read one like it in all of the years I have been here.

After 25 years, grown kids, and a man that IS trying although both of you had decided on divorce you say
All I can say is YOU are not ready for divorce. Not even close.

Sounds odd given the quote I just posted doesn't it???

Eli Weismann has a saying
Neither of you are in a state of indifference. I cannot say if you should stay or leave. It really is your call, but I think that somehow you know you are regret leaving or you would already be gone.

And I think your H knows himself better than you do, he may well never marry again. You one the other hand will marry, but I suspect it will go as many second marriages do...badly. Just the presence of your brother will be a challenge for a new husband.

I really wish I could offer you some good "pithy" advice that would make all of this good, but right now I cannot. If you ever decide to consider continuing this marriage, I think there are many things the two of you could do to make the next 30 years far better than the first 30.

God Bless,

JL

PS: It is remarkable that you don't value anything he has done in 25 years.

Just Learning,
I take your advice seriously, after all you have over 12,000 posts so surely have worked this all out. When I say that I don't value anything he does, I mean at the present time. I did love and appreciate him at one time. Arguing with both my family and his own about his value. At this time, I am really resentful. I am starting to see it now. All I really think about is the wrongs I think EWS has caused me. I am not interested in a second marriage at this time and would find it difficult to be in any relationship. I had an offer two months ago to travel with a performing band. I would be on the road for 48 out of 52 weeks. The kicker was I would lose half of my pay. Good way to step out on a relationship. Again, money seems to determine what I do. EWS has not got his company up on it's feet yet, and has had to borrow money from me again.

Have you in all your years seen a husband really change? That to me is the most important question here. I am ready to divorce the old EWS, but I am unsure about the new EWS. What do you think? also are you male or female, yes it does make a difference to me.

Yes. I realize that another man would not accept my brother. Again, I have made my choice there. He will be with me until death. I have a responsibility to him as my family member. I realize also that this is not the "American Way". We would not have the amount of nursing homes in America if our culture was really family based. I think this strong family value is what EWS really loves about me. He likes that I include his family even though they rejected me. The entire family comes to our home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Sometimes Easter too. I go all out cooking for everyone, including dishes each member likes. I am the favorite grandma and keep the grandchildren during my summer breaks. I wonder how much of this plays into EWS wanting our marriage. I would think, but I may be wrong, that when EWS and I divorce he would lose those days and times, while I would not.

What do you think?

Listen to JL. He is really one of the very best. I've always thought he missed his calling by being a scientist instead of a counselor. But maybe he is an even better scientist!

Family is very important to me too. So I get where you are coming from. In fact, I'm currently in trouble at work because I took 3 months of Family Leave to care for my father when he was dying to keep him out of a nursing home. And now my mother is very ill and I need to take more time, and will probably end up quitting my job.

You and your husband seem like you could make a good team. It seems that it would be better to fix things and keep the family together. There will undoubtedly be more grandchildren and you could have a good life.

The Mr. needs to take anger managment counseling to be sure that he has permanently changed.

He sounds like a hard worker, but definitely needs to unload his partner, and put his family first.