First, what is your definition of "enthusiastic"? I think that enthusiasm does not need to be obsessively eager.

Second, I am suspicious of any statement that uses the words "Always" or "Never" Is it possible that POJA is an ideal to aim for, rather than something you have to hit every time? I think that if you are striving for POJA, you will hit it a lot more often than if you don't try. I can't see considering it a failure if you dont POJA everytime. People being imperfect, dontcha know?


Third, is it possible to POJA something that you are at best, ambiguous about? Sometimes you really don't care if it's Chinese or Italian, or if the wall is painted beige or ecru.

Fourth, does unequal enthusiasm kill a POJA, or is it possible to have a POJA in which one is more excited than the other?

Fifth, how do you POJA in an impasse?

I think these are valid questions and would love to hear the senior members comments. I am brand new to the forum.

Enthusiastic means that neither of you feels you are sacrificing your happiness to meet the other's goal; i.e., it's something you can live with, without causing resentment.

It's impossible to always POJA; the key is open communication and willingness to not always have to have it 'your way.'

If you're ambiguous, you ARE POJAing - you're telling your partner that you'll be enthusiastic about whatever they choose because it's not going to matter to you. Plus, it'll make them happy, which makes you happy. Win/win.

Everyone has their own key issues that matter more to them. Good POJA means that every instance is a balance; if you want shades but spouse wants curtains, will it really matter to you if you have curtains? If not, let that one go. If so, work harder to find a compromise.

You agree ahead of time to not quit until you find a compromise you both can live with; sometimes it means BOTH of you giving up what you want and settling on something entirely different.

Hey, MrG...

I've been thinking about your post for awhile now.

There are many things I have no preference for when my DH asks for my input. That he asks, and I rumble around in my brain to found out if I have a preference, is part of POJA to me.

It's awareness...and information. Something to share...even sharing I got nothing is sharing.

I don't think POJA is about negotiating everything...it's about sharing honestly, supports radical honesty, and knocks DJs out of the marriage. Okay, it helps...maybe not a knockout.

One of the pitfalls in marriage is familiarity, which breed DJs. Assuming since you didn't have a preference last week between Italian and Chinese means you won't have one today is how we pat down our partners into only "knowns" and don't respect we are dynamic, not static beings.

Sounds small...you might have a preference today because you had Chinese for lunch. You might not. It's the opportunity to share your preferences right now...and bring your partner into consideration, respecting they are new, too...opportunity to appreciate, acknowledge, share and respect. All acts of love.

To have a loving marriage.

LA

Welcome, Enuff...

Thank you for posting and lurking. Both are important, I think.

MrG is a senior poster, in my opinion. I point this out because I read and learn from his advice.

Glad you're here and acting brave by posting.

LA

Hi, everyone.

Thanks for posting, Mr. G. I am trying to learn to POJA, too. And thanks, LA and catperson, for the food for thought.

Further musings definitely welcome!

Amoret

Thanks LA - that helps because I was going into lurk mode.

Sometimes I feel like the Socrates or Lao Tzu kind of poster, there are no answers, only questions.

I've been pondering my questions as well. Your answers do help provide some clarity.

Would you say that POJA comes down to a form of respect, and care? That is to say, we POJA because we care and are respectful of our spouse?

Another question, how do you get into POJA mode when you are in "taker" mode?

In an ideal world, you and your spouse love each other, and loving each other means you are more concerned for their happiness than yours - or at least as much! However, the one thing I've seen in just about every marriage, is that part, if it was ever there, fades away with time, with baggage, and people start turning into 'protect myself' mode. IMO, THAT is what you have to get past. I suppose that could be defined as the taker mode. Maybe realign yourself to what you originally saw as your marriage?

Good point. I also wonder if POJA is a habit you can cultivate? Last night my DW wanted my opinion on some dishes. I really have to kick start the right brain on these things. She knows I really don't have preferences in these areas, I'm more of a functional utility person. (Sometimes drive her crazy with my ideas of process design in the kitchen). But it did not occur to her to NOT get my opinion on something we share. For her, I suppose it's a habit.

MrG,

I'm a little confused with your last post. She wanted your opinion on something you both know isn't of interest to you, and she didn't ask your for your opinion on something she does know you want input on, is that correct?

If you feel loved by being known as you were...unchanging...then I understand you might feel not really considered when asked about the dishes...we do have this feeling loved when known well, mindreading as love thingie left over from childhood.

Would you consider then she didn't read your mind well enough to ask for your opinion on something you wanted to give it? That the two are linked? Where you wouldn't have minded about the dishes if she hadn't followed up or just done a decision you wanted to POJA?

Each time she asks for your opinion, IMO, is an opportunity for intimacy. For knowing her now a bit more, what concerns her...and I know I've asked my DH for preferences when I felt distance, inattention, lack of appreciation. Wasn't really about dishes.

Supposing that it did not occur to her is the poison to POJA...DJs are in many ways. This is one of them. Supposing her habits instead of asking for her thoughts is a way to manage a marriage and kill intimacy, IME.

How's your O&H? Did you say to her, "Hey, I'm confused. What were your thoughts on POJAing the dishes and not the <blank>? I love you and want to know you."

And it's okay to say you have no preference and your desire is for her to pick the dishes which make her happy. You would enjoy knowing why they make her happy, too. You like to be shared with.

LA

About your taker...

I think you sorting out non-preference with preference is what brings your taker to the table. In an issue you do have a desire about, you bring your taker...he wakes up and says, Hey! I got a preference.

Because of your taker, you can come up with more ideas than one...brainstorming excites the taker/giver balance (IME). And it meets the EN for conversation, appreciation, admiration and intimacy. The act of POJAing, I mean.

Breaking our patterns and establishing new ones. Yes, it becomes an automatic...not the results of POJA...to set our minds into POJA.

I do believe POJA is truly an act, an agreement, of mutual respect, love and intimacy. It is within the other four rules of care, time, honesty and protection. Like an exercise which works more than one muscle group.

Working on and doing POJA heightens marital awaress and connectivity...so we don't fall into assuming we know our spouses now and that we are already known. If the type of dishes were a health issue, your brain might have a preference. If you assume her question is only aesthetic, probably not.

Assumptions keep us in patterns...and if you want to have a marriage with automatics...even of love, care, respect and protection...then where would the current, right now intimacy be? The awareness?

Like philosophers you mentioned...the paradox of the only habit you can't develop is awareness...because when our brains detect an automatic, our awareness drops. No automatic awaressness is possible.

LA

Mr. G.:
Yes. When I ask less-than-momentous questions in analogous situations, my H answers with, "Suit yourself, my dear," or "Why do you ask when you already know the answer?" or "I'll give you one guess."

(Makes him kinda impatient sometimes . . .)

LA says,
Like LA, I am usually just seeing if I can make contact. Thanks for clarifying this.

Amoret

No, she asked for input on something she knows I have little interest in. She asks for my input on everything.




Ahh. that makes sense. I may have known that subconciously, if not directly. Since I had nothing going on today, I suggested we spend this afternoon looking for dishes. Part of the 15 hours, and that was on her mind. I will say that in 3 hours of looking, we didn't find anything that resonated with us, but we spent that time together, so it was an opportunity for closeness.

Thanks for your insight.

Yes, I have read an idea that ALL habits are bad. Took me a long time to get my mind around that, but what I came up with was that while the RESULTS of the habits can be good, the habit itself prevents awareness.

Inasmuch as we have habits, though, assuming your spouse wants to be consulted is probably a good one to have. Having said that, being AWARE that you are consulting your spouse BECAUSE you care and respect is better, n'est pas?

That does help me understand. I read a really good book called The Relationship Cure, which talked about this as a bid for connection. In any bid, you can turn to, turn away, or turn against the bidder. Obviously, turning to is best, turning against is worst. It seems that my initial response was to turn away. (I have no preference)

I made up for it though, I think, by going shopping with her. I will also say it was my idea, an opportunity to spend time together.

Thanks

MrG,

I like your idea of using UA time for shopping for dishes and relishing the together time is marvelous.

I had an idea, though, because of what Amoret posted.

What if when you say you have no preference, you stop, look her in the eye and say, "Thank you for including me. I appreciate you not assuming about me and the care you take in our marriage."

Seems to me, that's what you are saying here...and I think your wife fights her own assumptions by asking...and that benefits your marriage.

I don't understand, still, though where you said she didn't ask about something you did have a preference...my impression (in the last sentence); and now you say she always asks?

Also, what do you ask for her preference, her input?

LA

Ok, I see that what we have here is a "failure to communicate", as the movie says. Looking back at the post, I realize that I used a double negative. My 8th grade English teacher would send me to detention.

Here's what I meant to say: My W consults me on just about everything. She almost never fails to get my input on any topic, great or small, whether I have a preference or not. She has pretty much always been this way. So no, there was not an instance where she failed to get my input.

What I was failing to get, and you pointed out, what that this was a bid for connection, and when I did not have a preference, I was turning away from that bid.

You make an excellent point about acknowledgeing her POJA even when I don't have a preference. Do you think I could go on to say, that whatever makes her happy, in this instance, makes me happy? Transactional, as opposed to blanket carte blanche?

As for my asking for her input, I suppose I try to POJA all of our TIME. If I have an idea of doing something, whether by myself or together, I try to make sure that she is in agreement about it. As far as THINGS are concerned, I usually leave that to her to pick out for our household. She's also my fashion advisor, so I consult on my clothes as well. I also learned the hard way about POJA with regard to child rearing, LOL.

MrG,

Thanks for the clarification. Glad you aren't in detention. That was a me-thing, btw...something niggling at me that I don't understand...appreciate your choice to clarify for me.

Transactional appreciation...definitely. Carte blanche, as you said, no. I'm agree. Blanket appreciation...whatever makes you happy makes me happy is disconnecting. I see you caught that. Awareness in transactional appreciation affirms to yourself as well as your wife you really do appreciate she does this...doesn't assume, blow off. I do think, though, it's a step she takes, and there is another to take further. At times, a more direct connection of sharing why she finds these things important, what they symbolize (everything is a symbol) to her, not to prove she should, to acknowledge and know her.

The same for you. POJAing with child-rearing? Oh, my! I have lacked in that regard many a time. Thank you for reminding me of this very important area. Just when I needed it most.

Ack.

LA

I'm just gonna throw this out there....

IMO POJA comes down to consideration. Be respectful enough to consider your S and their thoughts and feelings before doing things or making decisions, big or small.

Nice throw, OKM...good arm.

LA