You are right. I just went back and read from the beginning of this thread and I do agree with everyone. Those of you who know me also know that I need to get things beaten in to my head before I get it. Even then, I sometimes have trouble seeing through my own fog.

Well, I would say I am about 95 percent now. Is anyone ever 100% in these situations? There really is nothing else I can do, is there?

The other 5 percent keeps tugging away and making me second guess myself and saying I didn't do a good enough plan A when i finally got the chance, I was impatient, I didn't follow the rule of "no expectations" and that's why she suddenly pulled the plug again. But in the end, it comes down to this. I did the best that I could given the situatation and her attitude. She hasn't learned anything from any of this.

It was hard to give her everything when she was doing nothing and holding all these expectations over me. Her approach was basically "OK...let's see if you can make me be in love with you again." I guess I couldn't lower myself quite enough to do that. I've already gone through so much with the "doormat" issue, that I couldn't do it anymore.

I haven't tried to call her since Friday when I asked if she was sure about things and all she could say is "I dont know." I fought the urge to call her over the weekend, but she texted me Sunday night just to ask how I was handling the 100 degree weather. I shouldn't have responded at all, but I DID and told her I was okay and how was she taking it? She said it was hot upstairs and she was getting their AC serviced. I didn't respond after that. But why the hell did i respond in the first place?

I'm going back to working on the pbl now. Feels like I've been saying that forever and never getting it done. I've always been somewhat of a perfectionist when it comes to writing letters and essays, so nothing ever seems like it sounds right. I think I just need to write whats on my mind and let it out. My problem is the second guessing that always comes when i start writing it. i go through this crazy battle with myself and i have to pour myself a drink... and there goes the end of that night.

Well, sorry for the ramble. Guess I better get to work.

Hi DM--

I don't contribute much around here (for various reasons), but do lurk pretty much daily-- and I followed your story when you were first posting, and again now (was glad to see you back, yours was one of the stories I intently followed... amongst a few others which have gone MIA... I hate that, when I never know what the ending is... but I digress...)

I am both a BS and a FWW-- in recovery.

I guess I see some of myself in your wife. Long after my A was over, I continued with my entitled, selfish acts. I kept my WW attitude, even though I was "technically" no longer wayward. I did what I wanted, when I wanted, hung out with who I wanted, and said/acted like I was entitled to. I didn't care how it affected my H. I was convinced he wasn't right for me...

What spoke to me most was when you said in one of your posts that her attitude was "OK, lets see if you can make me fall back in love with you". BINGO. You hit the nail on the head. That was my attitude 100%... and its wrong. And anytime my H screwed up and LB'd or did something I didn't like... well I used that as my justification to continue with my hideous behavior-- "see, you can't get it right, there's no way I'll ever be able to be in love with you again, so I might as well take care of myself!" (blech...)

And even if she isn't in another A right now, she's certainly got NO boundaries protecting her from falling into another one.

So now for what you are probably most interested in...

What broke me of this pattern of thinking??? (I now think I was an narcissistic b*tch for an entire year, and can't believe I ever did or said half the CRAP I did and said...).

Yep, it was the ol' plan B. Now my H didn't know of this site, he was doing this by the seat of his pants, but scarily enough, he followed MB principles pretty much... he did the plan A, (probably for too long... I honestly WISH to this day he would have kicked my butt with plan B sooner... now that says a lot coming from a FWW... I WISH H would have done it SOONER to me... I was cake eating all through plan A! I needed that plan B to kick my butt into gear. I don't think I could have done it without plan B. I think I was such a weak, ugly person at that point in time, that it TOOK that to get my a** in gear).

He plan B'd me. Out of the blue.

Wow, what a wake up call.

Almost over night, I was DESPERATE to get him back. Tables turned. Suddenly he had the power, and I was the doormat.

It took awhile still for the fog to clear. And this site (helped TREMENDOUSLY in fog clearing... it hurts as a FWW to realize you are no different than all the other scum bags and said and did the same crap... and to read the BS's pain here... and realize you did the same... wow, fog clearer!).

I still had my entitled times-- but my actions changed. And I changed my thinking. And I realized that not only my A hurt things, but my WW attitude in the months following my A hurt things.

I don't know if I necessarily believe that she's still wayward. She may not have another OM... she may have just held on to her WW attitude. I know I did. And I know it can be just as damaging. That WW attitude, even if there's not another OM can be just as "addicting" as the person itself. Its almost like you are fulfilling your OWN EN's at the expense of others. And to be a decent human being and W again, you have to start thinking about other's needs again... which means that your ENs aren't paramount anymore.

Plan B her, DM. I think it may be all you have left. She's cake eating, and she can't keep the WW attitude, even if there isn't another OM.

Just my 2 cents.

E.

Hi E,

Thanks for the post. It really helped me out today. I was feeling pretty deflated this morning and unsure of myself again. I know what I need to do. I just keep thinking of reasons why this might not work and I lose motivation. It's a risk that I have to take though. I'm not doing her or myself any favors by allowing her to continue acting this way. I thought she was coming around, but her state of mind never did. She's still completely lost and the only way she'll be able to find herself is without me.

I was happy when she came around and said she wanted to work things out. I was glad I didnt have to go to plan b. I was even happier when I was able to physically hold her again, but I still missed her even when she was with me.

I'm always interested and appreciate hearing from FWSs. You've been on the other side and can shed so much light on the mindset of my WW.

I found your thread and I think I'm going to have a lot of interest in your story. But it looks like it starts after you came back around. Can you tell me the details of when your H plan B'ed you? Did he write you a letter or did he just cut you off? How long were you separated?

If it's all in your thread, just let me know but i'd really be interested in the details because it sounds sounds similar to what Im going through with my WW, just on opposite teams?

Thanks again.

Well, I really do think it's over now. I just put the fork in it. WW IMed me today acting like nothing happened and to make small talk. I was busy at work, but i called her back later. My mind was in preparation for plan b, but I talked to her for a bit and the conversation was going really well. It seemed like she was really opening up again, so I thought I should ride this wave to see where it leads. Maybe taking the weekend off, cooled her down and she had a change of heart? I was still heading into plan b, but maybe some good conversation could get me a little more time to do the best plan A first. The cherry on top.

We talked for almost an hour and half. It was probably the longest and best conversation we had this entire year. But in the end, I slipped. I messed up big time and asked if she wanted to give us some more time... and everything went completely south.

All she could say was "I dont know" in that tired voice again.. and it really got to me. I told her that I can't continue like this any longer and if she's not interested in fixing things we should just move on. We have been stuck in the middle for a lifetime. She blew up.

She said that it was my choice to be here and she never asked me for anything. She never asked me to wait for her. I told her I knew that, but i chose to be here for her and for us. She said I chose to be here for myself. Does it mean anything to her at all that I've put myself through hell trying to save us? Absolutely not. She put me here! In the end she didnt want to talk anymore. Said we are going around in circles and hung up on me.

I think I am done. I just can't believe her attitude towards me or our marriage in general and how she acts like everything was my doing. I know I really screwed up, but at this point I don't care. I don't even know if I want her back... fog or no fog. I really dont feel anything for her right now. I've given up all hope for her and she'll probably stay this way forever. Maybe it's time to accept that the person I married is dead.

Plan B seems like it would be a breeze now, but now I'm thinking why bother. Why not just tell her off and go to plan D? No letters to write to express my feelings.. just fill out the forms and place in the mail. I have no motivation. I feel like there is nothing left to save.

I don't know if I'm going to feel like this tomorrow or the next day, but I'm just tired of all of it. Tired of walking on egg shells and worrying about making the wrong move. A year is enough. Why did I waste my time and throw away my dignity?

I'm sorry for venting all this anger here. I just have to let it out somewhere. I don't have much hope for this anymore... maybe that's a good thing.

DM,

Vent all you want. My Dad used to have a saying that I really liked
You are probably wondering what the heck is he talking about. You said

Don't do that. You don't need an enemy. Go to plan B and see what happens. Nothing is preventing her from filing. The beauty of plan B is you don't need motivation, you don't need to express your feeling, you just work on your life. Let her file. I notice she has not, although it was "all your idea to work on the marriage."

DM, sometimes they are so full of it their eyes are brown.

Go to plan B and recharge your batteries. Restart your life, and let her do the paper work.

God Bless,

JL

Hey DM--

You dug my thread out, eh?

The main reason I stopped posting here (at least about my story) is that I got such conflicting advice over and over again-- and I started talking with Jennifer myself, and she advised that I needed ONE plan-- and that sometimes posting here can confuse people because you get a lot of conflicting advice-- and then people half-heartedly do a bunch of plans, and not REALLY work one plan. But I digress-- again (I'm good at that...).

Anyways, yes, it does sound like your WW has a lot of the "mindset" that I did. That's why I picked up on your thread. I don't like to give out advice a whole lot here, but when I find a story that really rings familiar, I figure that it can't hurt to toss in my 2 cents.

OK-- yes, my thread starts after I came back around. Like most WS-- I had no interest in anything even remotely like MB when I was in my fog. I thought it was a bunch of psychobabble. H bought books, I laughed at him. (I was such an idiot...). Its true-- you can't "teach" as WS. He tried. I laughed at him, and I grew resentful because I thought "he just didn't get it". (really I was the idiot).

H actually plan B'd me after I had moved back home (I had moved out for about 7 months, although came back home quite a bit during that time...). I was "home" but had the mindset your wife does. "OK-- so make me fall back in love with you!" (I had that while I was out of the house too...). He had just had enough. I did what I wanted, when I wanted. I wasn't emotionally invested. I was a selfish person that wasn't appreciative of him at all.

So-- one day he just said to me "I don't know if I want this anymore, and I need some time away to figure things out". And that was it-- he just cut me off. And it was after about a year of my WW attitude. (He knew nothing of plan B at the time-- in a way, it wasn't really a "plan B"-- because a traditional plan B gives them 'the way home'). And HE withdrew from me. We were never really "separated" per se, but he started doing what I did. He did what he wanted, when he wanted. He put his friends and life in front of me.

Suddenly, I saw what I stood to lose. For a year he had waited around for me, in the wings. I knew that he would be there waiting for me-- so I did what I wanted. And the rug was pulled out from under me. I realized what an idiot I had been.

I will admit, at first, I was still full of justifications. Really, as my own fog lifted, and I became desperate to get back what I once had... I then searched the internet, and ended up here. And realized what I had to do-- and have been in plan A since-- with some help from Jennifer, things have been REALLY looking up recently. And we are leaving for a week long tropical vacation together on Friday (our anniversary is the 3rd of July, so we'll be gone over our anniversary).

I would do the "real" plan B in your situation... give her a letter, outline your requirements for her to return home and to the relationship-- something tangible for her to hold onto and see.

She needs it as much as I did. She's addicted to her WW mindset, just like I was. Self gratification, at the expense of others-- the one you promised to cherish and love forever.

Its been a year, DM?? Its time to go plan B. She'll react, trust me. If she's still doing the "talking like nothing happened" she still wants you in the wings. Or else she'd just stop talking to you all together. She wants you in the wings, but she's just putting herself first-- so she only "cares" about you when she's got nothing better going on. Selfish. If she's still "freaking out" at you, she's still in the state of conflict. If she didn't care, she would be apathetic.

My favorite quote? The opposite of love isn't hate, the opposite of love is apathy.

And your WW isn't apathetic. She still tries to talk to you, like nothing happened. She still "freaks out" on you (its trying to keep that control over you... keep you walking on those egg shells... if she freaks out on you and you are afraid of her leaving, then you'll "shape back up" and keep waiting in those wings...)

Get a letter together and post it here. I have no plan B letter experience, but others here can help you make it bullet proof.

Oh-- and don't do an immediate plan D. Go plan B first-- a completely dark plan B-- you can't let her in at all. Protect yourself. See what she does. If she continues this attitude-- then consider plan D. Plan D is permanent tho-- plan B isn't. Keep that in mind. I'd do plan B first-- and see her reaction. That may be enough to shape her up. And I'll put my money on that one... but you can't give in to her reaction until she agrees to the terms of the plan B letter 100%-- or you'll just put yourself back in this situation again.

Remind me-- she responded and was repentant between OM1 and OM2, right? You just "pushed her away"... and weren't sure?? But she wanted you back then, right?? Or am I mixing up threads? I thought I remembered way back when that you said she was really repentant after OM1, but you weren't receptive then OM2 came along.

BTW-- FWIW-- her repentance between OM1 and OM2 was shallow and fake if she allowed her self to get involved with another man again so soon after OM1. My lord, I couldn't IMAGINE that-- and have put my OWN boundaries in place to make sure it NEVER happens again! That is something she should have learned if she was truly repentant.

OK-- sorry this is so long, and I hope things are going better for you today...
E.

OK, well the anger didn't last. I wish I could just stay angry because it makes things so much easier, but I'm kicking myself for what I did lastnight. It was a great conversation that I totally ruined.

So, I'm still headed to plan B. As for Plan D, I'll put that aside for now, but I feel like I need to throw everything I have at her. She's literally the most stubborn person on the planet and her pride is the size of everest. No exaggeration at all and that's what scares me the most.

Anyway, is this how I should go into plan B, afer an argument? Or should I wait til after we've talked nicely again?

E,
I know what you mean about getting confused from all the advice here. I had the same problem back when I first started posted. Everyone means well, but it was such a crazy time and I felt like I was in a pinball machine. I couldn't figure out which way was up. This time I think it's more obvious what I need to do. I really don't have many choices now.

Your mindset at the time does seem very similar to my WW, but there are some differences that worry me. You were out for 7 months, but you came back quite a bit and finally for good. I kicked my WW out and she kept coming back for about 3 months, but I pushed her away. She was repentant at first, but it seemed fake and she was still seeing/talking to OM1. When that finally ended, she never wanted to come back here.

During OM2 is when I finally started plan A. The timing of everything was completely screwed up. I wish I did plan A during OM1 and plan B at OM2. Things would be so much different now if I did. So yes, you're right i wasn't receptive after OM1, so OM2 came a long. When I think about the fact that there was an OM2 I don't know why I'd want her back, but I recognize how things happened that way. I knew he was nobody and she was trying to cover her pain. That didn't last long and she couldnt stand him.

I know what you mean about her not learning after OM1, etc... She hasn't learned ANYTHING. Instead she filled up with resentment towards me and hated me. Now we're here and what a ridiculous story this has been.

Apathy? i wish I had more of it. I should be filled with it by now and don't know why not. Maybe I will soon, but it just comes and goes right now. She does seem apathetic. She just doesn't seem like she cares one way or the other.

I have to run, but i have another question for you. Did you think you lost all your feelings for your H at the time? Did you feel like you were not in love with him anymore and it would never come back? ok.. that was two.

Thanks!

Well, I THOUGHT I had, and I SAID I had... to both him and other people. BUT, there was a nagging voice in the back of my head and in my gut that told me otherwise. But don't expect that to come out, or for it even to be said.

I told this to another MB member who was a BH... who was complaining that he didn't think all the "plan A" things he was doing was even noticed by his WW... because she never responded to any of them... (which, btw, they are now RECOVERED!)...

Those little plan A things... we WW eat them up. We love them. We aren't going to show it-- AT ALL. But the point is, that it melts the ice on our heart, even just for a little. It makes that voice in the back of our head, that gut feeling SCREAM inside of us.... "YOU IDIOT, WTF ARE YOU DOING?!?!"

But see, we're stupid. And we ignore it. And we keep SEARCHING for reasons to be mad at you. Reasons to justify our own selfishness. Because, if we really BELIEVED that you were changing, and a good person... well then, we'd be an awful person. So that walking on egg shell feeling? We have to keep you feeling that-- to keep control. So that you feel like at any moment you could mess up, screw it all up (even if really you didn't and we are just twisting crap and blaming it on you to keep our sick, twisted control of the situation....).

My point is... when they say to ignore the fog-babble... they are serious. The CRAP I said?! Wow. I can't believe I said it. And its not what my GUT said... or what I thought when I was alone... but it was easier than admitting I was wrong, it was easier than doing the right thing... it was easier than stopping my selfish behavior.

The "real wife" you married hides inside somewhere. Its her gut talking, but she isn't going to listen to it, trust me. Not until she HAS TO. Plan B will MAKE HER. She has NO REASON right now to WANT anything to change. She's being selfish and filling her own ENs at your expense... AND expecting you to meet her ENs on top of that!!! Wow!! Talk about a good deal... from her perspective. Of course she doesn't want things to change.

But they have to, because she doesn't live in a vacuum, and what she does affects OTHER PEOPLE, and PEOPLE SHE LOVES (you and the rest of her family).

You have to give her that REASON to change. I know I kept coming up with reasons NOT to change, until I was GIVEN a reason to change.

Best of luck
E.

Oh-- and one more thing, DM.

PLAN A MEANS NO R TALK!!!

I am getting the impression that you are pushing R talk a lot with your conversations with your wife.

This will only lead to YOUR disappointment (I'll tell you now, she's NOT going to give you the answer you want right now!), and lead you to be angry and upset-- her to pick up on that, and use it as a reason to be mad at you... and the cycle ensues.

NO R TALK! NONE! If she brings it up, then come up with a blanket statement you can say to her until she commits. Something like "I'd love to discuss how we can make our marriage the strongest it can be once you have committed to our relationship" and then CHANGE THE SUBJECT, IMMEDIATELY! Don't even give her a chance to keep the conversation going.

Right now, R talks will just lead to YOUR disappointment, her frustration. So-- just avoid them. They are a LB right now. To BOTH of you.

Focus on fun.

She's not living with you right now, right?

Why not ask her out on a date. Plan something SUPER fun. Like this:

When my H was still checked-out of our R... I planned a date night. Took him to Dave and Busters (like an adult chuckee cheese...)... and put $40 on a play card. Told him that we were playing air hockey first, and if he beat me, he got to pick an index card. On the index cards, I had written things he "wanted" -- like "good for a back massage" or "good for me doing hte laundry" (his chore), etc etc... i made about 20 of them. The loser got to pick the next game (there's all sorts of video games, and basketball hoops, etc there). He got to keep 3 of the cards, so once he was holding 3 cards already, when he picked the 4th, he had to choose one of the cards in his hand to give up. But the incentive was to "get" all of the cards so that he could choose the 3 that he wanted the most out of the 20.

It was fun competition. We had a blast. And this was when he "didn't want to be with me".

Plan stuff like this-- and make sure it is active. I noticed that going to dinner wasn't a good activity for us... too much time to sit and stare at each other, then get in a fight. Plan active things. HAVE FUN!

Most of all, make it seem like you are inviting her on a date... and if she doesn't go, well oh well, you have other plans anyways (and go out with a buddy or something). Don't beg. Ask her, tell her you have a fun game to play, talk it up. If she him-haws around-- tell her to just let you know later. And drop it. Don't bring it up again. And if she says no, well then make it seem like no big deal... say "well (fill in friend's name) wanted me to go shoot hoops Friday night anyways, so that works out that you can't go out. Maybe we'll go out another night" THEN GO SHOOT HOOPS!

Don't sit around and wait for her!

And no R TALK! Its killin' your plan A! Its a huge LB, and its putting holes in the bucket of ENs you are trying to fill up! You can't fill a bucket with holes!!

NO R TALK!

(did you get my point??) haha!

E.

Your description of yourself in WS state is EXACTLY the the way my WW is behaving. It's actually pretty scary how you nailed it on so many points.

I know about the No R talk. Others here have beaten that into me, but I still slip every now and then. Really though.. how long can you go with out it? Doesn't it need to be brought up sometimes to get a status on where we are? We probably had three of them in the last 3 months.

I brought it up once after she first said "lets try" and we had been seeing each other for a month. She was still acting very cold and not interested in fixing anything and we weren't getting anywhere. I told her I didn't want to do this if she's not going to put in any effort and we should forget it. Things got better for about a month after that.

Then when things were going well, I asked her what was going on, if she had any intentions of moving back and she said we should go to counseling first before she moves back in, but I knew she was stalling and she never made an appt. Things were still okay for a few more weeks, but they started sliding down and i felt some distance growing.

Last week is when she called on the anniversay of the day we met and told me it wasn't working for her. She wasn't in love with me anymore.. blah blah. That was last wed.

We talked a few times since then and I've asked if she wants to give it some more time before giving up... and yeah I tried to teach her about "feelings following actions"... it's like having the "chicken or the egg" debate with her. It got me nowhere. I shouldn't have brought it up lastnight and that's a huge regret. It turned a great conversation into a disaster. I won't be bringing it up anymore IF we even talk again.

Today, we're back to doing the IM standoff. Both of us online, but neither of us talking. We were supposed to go on a little trip for the 4th of july weekend, which I booked a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if I should cancel it or ask if she still wants to go. I'll most likely be in plan B by then!

I'm a little weary about jumping into plan B on such a bad note, but I dont know what my choices are. I should be ready by this weekend. what if something happens and she still wants to go on the trip? What do I do then?

I have a feeling that she'll contact me and try to make the small talk again. Should I oblige? It really feels so stupid sometimes. Should I still be doing all this plan A stuff after lastnight? When do I pull the trigger?

Hey DM--

OK, so first off, with the IM stand off.... haha, that's kinda funny to me. Only because we did it too

How about this for a plan?? Let me know what you think...

Plan A your [censored] off until this 4th of July trip. Go on the trip. Have a great time. Absolutely, positively NO R talk. None. Not even any backhanded comments or those "hint" comments (I'm famous for those, dunno if you are... those passive-aggressive comments to see if you can get a response kinda things...) Pretend none of this is going on. THEN when you come back, go plan B if she isn't on board. The light is at the end of the tunnel-- you just need to get there by only taking steps FORWARD not backwards.

You don't want to go plan B without a solid last run at plan A. THAT'S what you want her to remember. So-- this trip is a perfect opportunity.

So, yes oblige her if she makes small talk. Spend time together. Have fun. In your mind, treat it as if you are just starting to date. You would NEVER ask someone who you just started to date what your status was... that would scare them away! You also wouldn't make underhanded comments or sulk, etc. Be fun, have fun. Make it fun, like you just started dating. Flirt with her. Pretend you are JUST getting to know her. Stare at her when she talks like she's telling the most fascinating story you've ever heard, even if she's telling you about a new purse she bought.

In terms of the status talks...again, you are NEVER going to get the answer you want. You just won't. When it "comes to her"-- you won't have to ask anymore, SHE'LL keep telling YOU what she wants. So just leave it be. YOU define the status of YOU , don't leave it up to her! And don't let the status of YOU be dependent on your relationship!

So- my thought is for you to plan A your butt off. REALLY get it right, for these last 2 weeks-- no slip ups. Treat her as if you just started dating... have fun. Go on the trip and have the time of your lives. And then see what happens. Give it a few days when you come back from the trip, and if she's still in this mindset, then get that plan B letter together.

You don't want to go out on a negative note. Personally, you don't want to have any regrets going forward, and you also want her to remember all the good/nice stuff you did.

So, YOU chat HER up on IM.

I would suggest writing down your plan, and what you are going to do or not do for the next 2 weeks. And put it in your wallet. When you are frustrated or about to slip off the plan, take a time out. If she's with you, go to the restroom, read over your list, count to 10, calm down, get back on track. If she's not with you, take a time out on your own.

Writing it all down, what MY plan was, how I wanted to deal with things really helped me. And when I felt myself slipping, you have to be strong enough to stop yourself and re-read that list. Usually that was enough to get me back on track.

DM-- I have hope for you!! I really do. Don't cancel the trip, and don't play games with her right now. Games and battles of the egos aren't compatible with plan A. Humble yourself for the next 2 weeks... don't play her games.

What do you think??

E.

Oh-- and don't be fooled. We are all pretty much the same the same selfish thinking. Its SUPER SUPER easy to pick it out once you are on the other side. Hopefully someday your wife will be able to do the same

Truthfully, realizing that you aren't "special" and that so many other WS did and said the same things as you, and you are just the same as any other horrid person that did this crap is a huge wake up call in and of itself.

Not that I would suggest you telling your wife that, that is something she needs to come to on her own. If you try to "tell" her that, she's just going to resent it and its just going to deepen her belief that "she's different" that "your situation is different" (even though its not). You can't teach us, and half the time, trying to teach us just accomplishes the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you were trying to accomplish, and on top of that makes us mad at you for "trying to understand" when you just couldn't possibly... (or so we think).

We're all the same ugly beast, possessed by the same drug with the same side effects. Its just some of us "wake up" and get clean faster than others. Some of us can put our lives back together, and others are too far gone, and by the time they wake up nothing will be left.

I think your wife has that GUT feeling though, I can recognize it through her actions with you... they are the same as mine. She just needs that shove, that reason to stop what she's doing. So plan A your butt off for 2 weeks, then cut her off. That's her reason

I have hope DM!! Its up to you now!!

E.

E,

That sounds like a good plan, but that's assuming she still wants to go. I haven't talked to her since the blow out, so who knows when we're going to talk again? I have until Tuesday to cancel the trip. If something happens and she does want to go, I'll know what to do.

I'm still a little torn, but.. I know that no matter what, a plan B will have to take place before this can move in any kind of direction. It's inevitable, so I guess its just a matter of how I want to go into it. I'd rather go in on a good note. Hopefully, things work out that way.

You seem to have her pegged and I think I do too now. I'm just worried that pride will get the better of her and she's not going to make the right decisions.

I don't have much time right now because I'm at work, but I'll post more later and let you know if anything happens today.

thanks!

May I suggest... from a woman's perspective... flowers.

You reach out to her (hey-- you are in plan A, right??), take her some flowers, maybe some take out food of her favorite kind, after work today. Take her a card, and invite her on the vacation, tell her you are really looking forward to (name something that you planned on doing on this vacation special... wherever it happens to be... laying on the beach and relaxing... or whatever).

Don't let your taker or pride get in the way now. But don't beg her to go on the trip either. If she is unsure, then don't try to "convince" her-- just tell her you are really looking forward ot it and think it could be a great time... and that you'd love her company, but she needs to inform you of her intentions by such-and-such time (maybe Monday evening?). And then DROP IT. Change the subject. Something fun!

If she decides not to go on the trip, then don't make a big deal out of it. Oh well. Her loss. Maybe invite her to a 4th of July picnic instead (wait a few days and then bring it up).

I have a feeling that she'll want to go on this trip though. Not sure where you're going-- hopefully its somewhere she'd really enjoy too, which will increase the lure. The idea is to put the idea out there for her, then let HER decide and let HER live with her own decisions.

So, kiss and make up (for now). Get working on some plan A, don't do the whole "we aren't speaking to each other" ego game. You breaking the ice and doing something nice will make her feel guilty deep inside anyways, 'cause she knows she's guilty deep inside Just don't rub it in

And yes, you will probably have to do a plan B. Even the good ol' Dr. Harley says its necessary in 85% of cases-- and I'm willing to bet even higher percentage in cases where the attitude has permeated for this long (like in my case and yours...). Just a hard habit to break at that point.

Well-- I am going on a trip of my own for a week with my H, and will not have access to a computer after tomorrow... I'll be back on the 4th myself.

Sorry that I won't be around, but I'll be thinking of you while I'm away and I'll keep you in my thoughts. I think knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel will help you. Make that list of what you want to do and how you want to ACT (NOT REACT!) in the next 2 weeks. You are almost done with the race... you just have a little bit more... give it your all and don't trip and fall now!

Good luck!! I'll check back again before I leave for vacation!

E.

Well, good news... we are going on the trip.

She IM'd me today to see if I had checked the mail lately. She recently changed jobs (2 months ago), but she's been having problems with them and they still owe her a final check. She asked if I'd seen it, which I haven't but I don't think that's really why she contacted me. I think she just wanted some cake.

So, I asked what we should do about the trip. After awhile, she just said, "I guess we should cancel it." I pretty much expected that.

My reply was, "Really? Why don't we just go and have some fun?" and to that she said, "No strings attached?" ouch! I wasn't sure what to say next.

Then I remembered an incident that happened on one of our last trips when some drunk guy who could barely stand tried to hit on her right in front of me. He kept saying what a "great dress" she had on. We had a pretty good laugh about him that night.
So I replied, "just bring that great dress you have." and she got a kick out of that.

By the way we're going to Vegas. We've been there a million times, but I live in Cali and it's a quick and easy trip for us.

Anyway, it looks like we're going again and plan A is still on for just a little while longer. I don't know how much I'm going to see or talk to her between now and next thursday though. Hopefully, I can get some time in there.

Meanwhile, I'm still getting a plan b letter together, but everytime I start writing, I lose movitivation and don't know what to say. I've been trying to write one for months (if people remember). If anyone has suggestions, please help.

E, I'm sorry you wont be around next week, but I hope you and your H have a great vacation. Thanks for your help! I think I'm finally starting to see through my WW's fog and starting to figure out that screwed up thought process.

I'm feeling better about this, but I'll feel even better if I can pull off the next two weeks perfectly.

DM

Just wondering if anyone else thinks this is a good idea or if I should just go to plan b now. I was feeling good about it yesterday, but I am pretty down today and I'm wondering what's the point.

She agreed to go on the trip with me, but the fact that she said "no strings" is really hitting me now. Why do I keep trying to make this work with someone who's obviously not interested anymore?

I feel like the more effort I put in, the more likely she will pity me and not want to be with me. I'm wondering if she just thinking "why cant he just get the point?"

Am I just being an idiot??

I guess I will stick with the plan for now and hope this feeling passes. When does this roller coaster end?

Go on vacation. Do not talk recovery. This is a great chance to make love deposits. It maybe your last chance. Why waste this opportunity to go to plan B. You can always plan b later.

DM, I feel for mu friend.

You change your attitude about every 12 hours, as evidenced by your replies. Welcolm to the rollar coaster(or not).

You have a trip planned but are bummed out about the "no strings" statement from your w. Read again about plan a and "no expectations." You mentioned it once yourself but have seemed to forgotten it very quickly.

Your W's "no strings" is eactly the same as "no expectations" mentioned in plan A. Simply different rhetoric, but you are letting it throw you for a loop. Accept this as part of plan A and go on the trip. This is your last and final chance to complete your plan A on a positive note!
Don't mince word and let it deter you.

When you return it will probably be time for plan B, but on the heels of a good plan A it will be much more effective.

In plan B, you will be dark but will also be a beacon. You will be the lighthouse to guide your WW home again as she is left to wander and groupe around in her own fog. Have your trip but do not atttempt an amatuer plan B if necessary. come here first and focus on the details of a very good plan B.

Perhaps it won't be necessary.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I know I keep changing my mind and second guessing myself at every step. I know it's not helping me, but it's hard to walk a straight line when you feel like your heads been chopped off.

I thought I was done with this rollercoaster a few months ago, but it's like she clicked her fingers and I got thrown right back on it. The hills and dips are a lot more spread out now, but yesterday was a bad one and I kind of screwed up.

I was going to invite her to dinner lastnight, so i asked what she was doing, but she told me she was going out with a friend and was really vague about it. Later on, my imagination got the best of me and I called to check up on her. I think she knew what I was doing and it annoyed her. She cut the conversation short and it ended kind of badly. It was a really stupid move on my part. I've been thinking all morning about how to fix that. Should I send her a text to say I was just thinking of her lasnight or am I going to come off as being needy? Maybe I should just leave it alone and not call her the rest of the weekend?

Aside from that, things are a lot clearer for me today. Thanks for reminding me what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm ordering some tickets to a show for our trip. It's one that she's always wanted to see, but we never did because the tickets are $160 each. Who knows if she'll even appreciate it, but hopefully it will make things memorable since we have been out there so many times.

Question..

My BIL (her brother) is having a baby soon and the baby shower is tomorrow. I received an invitation a few weeks ago and my WW knows that I was invited. We were planning on going together at the time because we were still "trying" to work things out.

I'm trying to decide if I should still go or not. I'm not sure if she wants me there or what she'll think if I show up. Should I ask her or should I just disappear for the rest of the weekend? I don't want to annoy her any more by showing up where im not wanted.