Hello, everyone. I need help figuring out what I need as a response when my feelings are hurt--so I can ask for what I need from tell my husband. And I could use a reality check!

Bkgd: He's had several PAs, which I found out about almost a year ago. Among the hardest things of our recovery has been that he seems to be unable to take any responsibility for my hurt feelings.

About the PAs, his line for the first several months was, “I love you. I wasn’t trying to replace you. But I’m different from you, and my needs are different. If you accepted that, it wouldn’t hurt you.” Or “You don’t have to feel bad. You’re putting yourself through it.”

[From here on out, the discussions and apologies are NOT about the PAs.]

He can certainly apologize: "I'm sorry you're offended. I didn't mean to offend you." Recently he's said, "I'm sorry what I did/said offended you," or "If I made the wrong choice, I'm sorry."

During the year of our recovery, he has explicitly asked me several times to take care of myself emotionally. When I was hurt (as I was last December by his forgetting to give me a card for our 25th wedding anniversary, for instance), he said, “You know what you need to hear—just say it to yourself, and imagine that I've said it to you."

OK. So here is the this-week scenario that reminded me that I need a better way to express what I need from him:

We missed an opportunity to have lunch together. DS (19) was with H in location A; DS (17) was with me in location B, 30 minutes away. But DS (17) and I needed to go to location A in the afternoon anyway.

The missed opportunity went like this:

9 AM: DS (19 years) calls to say, “Since you and my brother [DS (17)] are coming to location A this afternoon, let’s all meet for lunch.”
9:05: I call H to say, “Let’s all meet for lunch.” H: “OK, let’s meet at 1 PM in location A.”
9:10: DS (17 years) says, “I can’t do lunch; I have a conflicting appointment.”
9:12: I update H—no lunch.
12:10 PM: DS (17) says, “My appt is at 5:30 PM; I am available for lunch in location A at 1 PM.” I say, “Let me ck with your Dad.”
12:12: I call H. He says, “Nah—DS (19) and I are ready to go to lunch now and don’t want to want to wait [for you to come to location A].”
12:15: H and DS (19) decide to go to lunch at location C, 30 minutes from BOTH location A and B.

Flash forward to dinner time (6 PM). Catch-up conversation about the day.

Me: “Where’d you have lunch?”
DS (19): “We ate at location C.”
Me: “Really? We could have met you.”
DS (19): “Don’t blame me. It was totally Dad’s idea.”
Me to H: “DS (17) and I were disappointed when you said for us not to come. We thought you were eating in location A and that you didn’t want to wait for us, but we wouldn’t have kept you waiting at all, since you were going to location C.”
H: “Yes. We didn’t want to wait for you to get to location A. I didn’t think of letting you know when we decided to go to location C. It never occurred to me.”
Me: “You told us not to come because you didn’t want to wait. Then you decided to go where it wouldn’t have involved any waiting. Then you didn’t call us back?”
H: [defensively] “You aren’t going to be angry at me, are you?”
Me: “How about hurt? Can I be hurt?”
H: [tone argumentative rather than apologetic] “I was driving out of the parking lot when the cell phone rang. I was rattled by having to find the phone in the back seat. It always feels like an emergency trying to get to it before it stops ringing. I can never see who’s calling without my reading glasses. I almost had an accident in the parking lot.”

[Now that I’m typing it out, I see that it looks like my “lines” could be believably delivered in a way that sounded “hard” (angry) rather than “soft” (sad), and H’s could be delivered in a way that sounded “soft” (apologetic) rather than “hard” (argumentative).]

Here’s where that conversation ended up, after dinner, on the porch patio, with a summer thunderstorm raging:

Me: [trying to make “I” statements] “When I feel hurt, I want to be comforted.”
H: “When I feel attacked, I want to defend myself.”
Me: [“Poor me” resignation lost beneath a gust of thunder/wind/rain/hail] “Well, it’s too bad for me that when I express my hurt, you hear it as an attack.”
H: “It’s a good thing I couldn’t hear that [, because it probably would have made me angry].”

So I got up and went into the house, and from there into the garage, and from there on an errand. (I was due somewhere else by pre-arrangement, but when people start being glad they can’t hear each other, it’s probably time to discontinue talking.)

While I was in the car, I was able to sob for a few minutes and then reflect that:

A. H. thinks that, when I’m upset, understanding him will make me feel better.
B. Thus, H. thinks that explanations (of his behavior and state of mind) are equivalent to comfort.
C. The way I express my hurt feelings makes H. feel attacked.

Now, the natural conclusions [=DJs?] to draw are that

• H. thinks that I should only have feelings that he intends for me to have, because
• he thinks that he is the only real person in this marriage, and that I am just a wife-appliance (who is not supposed to “attack” him and is thus malfunctioning).
• It is always going to be this way, because he has never been able to recognize my status as a separate person who has real feelings—which his behavior affects!!!!

OK. Once I had dismissed the DJs and dire prediction (and once I had remembered JustLearning’s thought that we need to “cover for” each other during recovery—-in this case, I needed to “cover for” H when he’s trying to express love and “misses”), it seemed to me that the logical thing to do was to say, “I need to know how to express my hurt feelings and ask for comfort. How can I do that without sounding like I’m attacking you?”

So almost two hours later, after my errand was over and I had returned to the house, I asked him that. He first needed to know how he had hurt my feelings to begin with. So I gave him a brief review of the I said/you said variety.

I admitted the missed lunch opportunity—-that kind of inadvertence—-is not a huge big deal. And I said, “I overreacted. I’m sorry.”

I said, “I know you love me and want to take care of me, because you came out onto the porch after me and held my hand while we finished our conversation. I know you want to be a good husband and make me happy. I really appreciate that.”

Then I asked him my question again: “How can I express my hurt feelings and let you know I need to be comforted, without sounding like I’m attacking you?”

H: “You want to know what you should have said? Here’s what you should have said: ‘I wish I’d realized you and DS (19) were going to eat in location C. If I had understood that, I would have suggested driving there to meet you.’ And then you should have dropped it.”
Me: [nobly ignoring the logical problems with this-—that it would have required mind-reading, or my suggesting we eat in location C since H. was still thinking in terms of location A at the time of the call] “I don’t see how that would have expressed my hurt feelings or let you know I wanted you to comfort me.”
H: “Your feelings shouldn’t be hurt.” And then a review [in defensive, argumentative tone] of his actions and state of mind when I had called to update him on DS (17)’s change of schedule.

I know that I can give H. the benefit of the doubt and tell myself that, notwithstanding his verbal clumsiness or lack of empathy, he does care for me (that’s why he’s here—he could have left during the PAs or during the initial very unpleasant period after the disclosure). I have tried very hard to do this many times, during the 24½ years of our marriage before D-day, as well as during the year since D-day.

But it would help me SO MUCH to feel him taking an interest in how I feel. It would help SO MUCH to feel that he was taking care of me when I’m upset.

So, to recap: I understand that I probably over-reacted to that particular event. I understand that H really does not intend to upset me. I get it that he equates my being upset and hurt with a threat to himself (“She’s finally giving up. She’s had it. She’s leaving me after all”).

But I do feel like I want something different from him. I do want to be soothed, not to be told I shouldn’t be hurt, and that if I need soothing, it’s up to me to soothe myself.

I feel like I know how to soothe. I can construct scripts based on what works for me when I soothe people. But I do not know how to get what I want, or even explain what I want, to my husband.

Any suggestions, or any insights into the whole dynamic? Thanks in advance--

Amoret

You seem to have a husband who believes in the head of the household bs. What the man wants/needs/does is the first priority, is best for the family, so the family should ensure he gets what he needs. He's used to taking care of his wants before thinking about someone else's. Hard habit to break. The most used trick here is to say 'ouch' when he hurts you.

Basically, what you're going to be doing is pulling out one of the legs of his support table, when you start taking care of your wants/needs by expecting due respect from him. He will exhibit 'change back!' behavior, to try to get you to go back to doing things the way you used to. You need to reassure him that you still love him, but you will have to be taking care of yourself as well as him from now on, for the good of the family. (he likely won't care if you're only doing it for the good of you; he has to see a payoff for himself) Then just continue to respectfully make your feelings known. It'll come to a head eventually.

Aside from that, the most concerning parts are (1) multiple affairs and (2) tendency toward abusive traits that I see in him. Can you explain what has happened regarding the affairs? Did he ever make restitution to you for it, or did you just stuff your feelings? We need to explore that, cos it's likely tied up into this other issue.

And for (2), would you read a book for me? It's called "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft. See if you recognize traits in your H. And let us know.

Thanks very much for your thoughts, catperson. Could you say a little more about this:


It sounds very useful, at least in terms of my having a concrete plan for when this happens. (It's going to happen again.)

I don't think it has anything to do with the affairs, except that both reflect an absence of any sense of responsibility for my feelings. That absence has been a problem throughout our marriage, but I don't tolerate it as well as I did pre-D-day.

Is there something I should read on the MB website (beyond the "Ouch? No, let me explain" article) about this?

You ask,


"Restitution" means he discontinues the affairs and has no contact with the other people, right? He did this.

And an apology, right? Well, he has said ever since the disclosure that he's sorry he hurt me, and recently, 11 months post-D-day, he has admitted that he was wrong to have sex with those other women, because he had promised me a sexually exclusive relationship. He also admitted lying to me and about me was wrong. He said that he wished he'd never done it, and that he was sorry. So he has apologized.

I don't know what else there is to restitution--is there something I can read about that?

You suggested I read,
I looked it up on Amazon.com and read the large chunks available via the "search inside" feature, and no, that's not my husband. He does have angry outbursts (fewer now than earlier in our marriage), but because they vent his feelings rather than because he's calculating the effect on other people.

He is more Asperger's (other people's emotional experiences are not very intuitively available to him) than manipulative. Controlling, yes, but inadvertantly rather than purposefully, because the notion that other people have their own feelings, thoughts, and ideas is not very real to him.

His own standpoint, how things are inside his own head, is the only place that makes sense to him. Maybe essentially the only place that's real to him.

I don't mean that disrespectfully; I really don't. One of our sons has somewhat the same lack of empathetic imagination, and has ever since he was a baby.

Thanks so much for your interest and suggestions. I really appreciate your input.

I found ya! Thank you for the link.

I'm with Cat (as usual). I began using the "Ouch" because when I felt hurt, I couldn't place it. I committed myself to saying ouch to signal DH I felt hurt. Doesn't say where the ouch is coming from, doesn't blame. It signals.

The next step was to trace that ouch and share it's source. That was how I stopped assuming DH was the source...his actions. Helped with my ownership and my signals from self.

Thank you for transcribing these conversations. Is it okay that I chuckled and smiled at the one during the thunderstorm?

I know you cried...felt unheard, that WH was combative, deflective and dodging your stuff. I'm not chuckling at your pain...I'm seeing my DH and I for years in that battle to be acknowledged...and somebody has to go first.

Your stress relieving tears solved something important for you...and your DJs really did bring it right back. I think your exercise here showed how much pain can distance you and how DJs distance you from your relationships and yourself. Please commit to not assuming, guessing or even evidence gathering to know his stuff...ask...share...offer for consideration...and you will feel considered, shared with and respected. Again, I have that all-or-nothing stigma going on...you very well may not. You got to 90 degrees...where reasonable, understanding and clarity live. I'm repeating my way because I am stuck, not you.

May I ask for you to consider how you comfort yourself when you feel pain, fear, anxiety? What are your acts of love for self?

At the risk of sounding like your WH...your feelings are yours...they are valid and real...they are signalling you about you from your beliefs. If you trace them, you will find YOUR beliefs/expectations/perspective at work here. So stating ouch, where it's coming from, if it's right now or from a long time ago...is your work.

"I felt left out, unimportant and hidden from (ditched). Hearing your explanation of choosing to not include us and why today for lunch did change my perspective a little."

You put effort into connecting at lunch...and it began as DS's idea...you ran with it. I think you're dealing with agreeing when WH doesn't agree here, primarily. DS19 was in the car with him when his cell rang...he could have reached in the back seat, is that correct?

Consider this possibility for me...if WH chooses the belief that it's all on him all the time...that would be your children's well-being and wish-fulfillment, your feelings and desires, his own feelings and desires, and that blame (failure) is his biggest button, then defensiveness is self-survival.

You know he's not under this entire burden...yet you asked, “How about hurt? Can I be hurt?” which makes it his permission of something that's solely yours.

Same with "I know you want to make me happy." Now, here's where my lack of experience comes in because Harley uses these same words and I've seen them in successful negotiations shared here on this board many times. So this is my weakness showing...yet it ties, I believe, very closely to your WH's perspective.

You can't make me happy, Amoret. Your WH, your children...no one can MAKE you happy. When you really sit with you can't make anybody but a sandwich, you will know your true limits as a human being. You can follow the rules of care, protection, honesty and time...and your partner may not be happy. Where their thoughts are, there is there treasure. If they focus on lack, that will be their experience. Not yours.

You make yourself happy through your code, through ownership of what is yours...tracing, knowing and owning yourself thoroughly...all your choices being yours...for what you think, where you focus, what you perceive, what you believe and how you feel. That's your stuff...and they are choices (except for the feelings...those really do result from your own actions and beliefs).

Your self-image asked those questions...believes he can make you happy...which means he can make you miserable, too. Your true self doesn't believe or experience this...sees him as your equal, side by side, with varying degrees of influence...and sometimes, he's so wide open to your influence, he blames you for making him...or rewards you for making him feel, think, etc.

I think you're experiencing a longing to separate...and when I felt this, it was for what you crave...acknowledgment, validation, connection, UNDERSTANDING, and acceptance.

And I believe that's exactly what your WH has been craving all his life, too. Only way I know to do it is much as you have been, with tweaking...and that is for you to go first...

To acknowledge, validate, connection through your acts of intimacy, strive first to understand, and accept who your WH is right now, and not you being his cause, control or cure. And surely, not taking on his beliefs. Even your DS19 plays the blame game. It's been in your household a long time...everyone buying into blame instead of responsibility. And still you all choose to connect, anyway.

Yet...listening and repeating with filter. "I hear you fearing I'm blaming you for my hurt today. I see you perceiving I'm saying you hurt me, is that correct?"

I saw you listen and repeat well about facts...and I didn't see where you shared your stuff...what you felt, what you found out inside..."My hurt comes from my wishfulness. I loved the idea DS19 had of having lunch all together. I felt excited and was looking forward to it. I really wished it would have happened. And yeah, I'm catching myself wishing YOU had wanted it as much as I did to have made it happen."

Takes a lot of courage to acknowledge your wishful child perspective...to own all parts of yourself...acknowledge and validate them, then share...whew. Sure would blow the wheels off of high road woman, all adult, all the time...wouldn't it?

I only say that because I totally believe your goal is to understand, embrace and accept that part of you who is no longer what you want to act from now.


Would you consider not giving WH the benefit of any doubt? Would you consider not knowing what you don't know...he DJ'd you..."your feelings shouldn't be hurt" isn't acknowledgment, respect or validation. It's a should statement...and if feels like he shouldda all over you 'cuz he did.

DJs are when we define others...and God limited us to only defining ourselves. He didn't communicate any information about himself, his domain, did he? He got into yours...that's going to hurt...self hurts (not self-image...comes through it...the shoulds are in and from self-image). That's an "ouch" and trace to see he's crossing your boundary of respect.

Check yourself in this iota of engagement...do you intend to communicate to him that he shouldn't feel defensive since you're not attacking? He shouldn't feel obligated to have lunch and should just say "No, not today" not agree when he really isn't agreeing...and see if he said he agreed because he thought he SHOULD? Really see those shoulds...they aren't real and they hinder and harm us...inside our own minds, to ourselves...and to others.

They screw up our intimacy and communication because they introduce a fantasy third-party...this is the way we should do it...they lack ownership, identity and reality of just you two people striving to understand and be understood.

Shoulds are reactive...hit us in many directions...and directly trigger us to childhood...to growing up in constant shouldom...like a smothering blanket to our adult selves...because we're still reconciling, all these decades later, how they weren't real, even then. Mind-blowing...and insiduous...you can re-read your posts and hear them loudly...feel how they generate feelings from reading them (does in me) and experience them as uncommunicative, deceptive and disconnective.

Okay, so I'm asking you to do that...reread your posts at this "impasse" and find a major block in the word should...and it's incarnation in shouldn't, wouldn't have, could have...because words are important to you, have impact in their symbols.

You see verbal clumsiness, lack of empathy you are DJing him with...see in yourself where you may not be seeing your own despair over verbal clumsiness (new tools in place take new words and self-commitments), lack of empathy for (dig around, I can't find it...gotta be there!)...because we signal ourselves through our partners...seeking comfort where you give yourself none...want to smack his childishness and refuse to hear yours within...it's a tool in itself...and relieves anxiety, frustration, fear and pain...because it comes from our expectation for the other to do/be/not do/be...and now you can get those signals.

I'm celebrate you stopping giving him the benefit of the doubt for 24 1/2 years...for focusing on what is now in actions separate from stuff...for being here in this moment, with your goldenly true intent and focus. What a relief...you are loved and will be loved even if you are not rational, perfect, consistent in your actions and thoughts...it's okay. You're gonna be loved, be safe and cherished, anyway.

I promise. So is your WH.

He fears how you feel for being held responsible for being your cause, control and cure. Interested? What a DJ to think he is not. He may care deeply to know every molecule about you...when he's free of owning what he can't control...and the same for you. You can do this together. I remember our MC saying to me, "Your DH fears you." My heart was swallowed up in my toes! I riled..."What? You can't say that. He can't think that! It's not true." Whoa. Hold. MC just looked and listened. Then I said, "I believe DH fears every one." And MC nodded, that this was true...and it didn't absolve me of putting my stuff in DH's care, and taking his into mine, which has no respect, ownership, love or acceptance. It just doesn't. The rule of care is to consider...not take in and take over.

To know and be known, Amoret. Knowing stuff doesn't cross your boundaries...acting from his stuff does. Same for you...mind your own boundaries of respect, your high desire for clarity, understanding and minding your actions...which include our words...the act of communicating (and we're only half of it as you know)...because that can be blurry line...our thoughts spoken, shared...and the act of communicating them.

Okay, still gets blurry for me. That was me.

Your DH was present while you were upset. He fears your anger (and DJs it), and stayed present. Same truth for not leaving during the really hard times after knowing you saw all that he chose to do...and he saw your pain, your fear, your terrible, awful hurt to the core.

He stayed present. I emphasize this so you can access your requirements for comfort...is it comfort you are seeking? Could it be you are seeking what kind of comfort you want, when you want it and in the way you want it? May cut out a lot of your experience of feeling comforted...we can feel comfort when we state our stuff, not demonstrate it (we feel physical relief from acting out, not emotional relief...the signal keeps coming because we didn't acknowledge it as ours)...I cut out so much love, comfort, empathy, understanding, acknowledgment and validation with those three circling witches. Not about settling for crumbs...about me actively focusing on what I wanted, when I wanted it and in the way I wanted it.

I think you came close in your discussion to seeing your witches and his...because you asked how should you have (yech, that word) responded...which was exploring...growing closer to his witches. Mind your own, Amoret. They are in you from childhood...so even when you don't think you are acting from a very early you, because you're in your care-filled, aware and most reasonable adult mindset...we slip by in our expectations, desires and what else we aren't looking at.

I call it going under my own radar...those old, old automatics. Not something to be perfected...to be aware...for through them, I've connected with myself, my DH, my kids and many others...thriving experiences. Not to be cut out...not to be allowed or permitted to mess up your experience.

Over-reacting? Nope. Acting out and in? Yep. This event was a symbol of bigger stuff...lots of great stuff, actually...uncover all you can now, and know as you know more, more resonates, more you will uncover in yourself.

God is working.

Now to self-soothing...as we've already talked about, everything has it's extreme ends and it's hearty, healthy middle. "Soothing" is no exception. You believe you soothe others...do you do it by being present (in person or by voice/written word), listening to their stuff, respecting, understanding? Or do you say, "Don't feel that way. You're not awful!" Which would be as your WH did...yet you do it in comforting, encouraging tone and empathetic intent? Examine to know...because this doesn't work on your self-soothing...and REAL soothing is getting your signals...

which means when you feel upset and say "ouch" you don't stop there and look for an outside balm for your inward pain. You look inside and identify the emotions...upset means a mix of emotions...a reactivity...a riling...a stirring up of multiple signals. Okay...find the primary ones...fear, pain...and the secondary (their forward guards), anger, frustration, resentment (expectations are like premeditated resentments)...discern one from the other and trace them to the belief "WH isn't interested in my feelings. Ergo, WH isn't interested in me. I'm being used. I'm being used up." Continue to route the rest of the beliefs...I stopped...there's usually, for me, five, six or ten of them in a row, one more harsh than the last...all of them my beliefs...and they go way back...so they often sound embarrassingly childish.

They aren't. They are mine. They are in me. I just don't choose to react to them.

Sharing these results from tracing has greatly enhanced my experience of intimacy with my DH. Took it to new levels. Sharing what my wishfulness says, does, broods, pouts and laughs over is deeper intimacy than I knew. Once I stopped trying to control his wishfulness, focused on my own and shared, that is. Not perfectly...blissfully.

And when you state "I don't know how to get what I want" you are verifying to self that YOU lack...you are less...incomplete...have a void. When you rephrase to align with truth, "I'm not seeing where I already have...I resent having to be all of me." Maybe you'll experience your WH differently?

If you don't enforce your boundaries around yourself...require you to believe you really are only responsible for you, your half of the marriage (and the same in parenting, your relationships with friends...everybody on the planet, including God)...then you won't enforce those same boundaries (respect, honesty, consideration, appreciation...whatever is in your code) with others, including WH. You won't hear his DJs...and you'll continue to feel them...and feel upset, hurt...ouch.

Signals don't direct us to anything but their source...they aren't good or bad feelings...they are information. Took me breathing, pausing to breathe some more, and doing that concentration face...even as a play by play to answer my DH...and take him on my journey...with me, side by side...and believe me, my concentration face ain't pretty.

And he stayed present. And does to this day.

In your corner, Amoret...thank you so much for the opening to examine, so I can see better inside myself again, with fresh eyes...helps my awareness and my marriage. Thank you!!

LA

Amoret, please forgive me for barging into your thread; but I had to stand up and applaud this line from LA:


LA, thank you for reminding me of this as well. That "signal" point is, sadly enough, where things often start unravelling (for me, anyhow). Such clarity is something I should trouble myself to remember more often.


slh

Hey, SLH...I wouldn't trouble yourself...I'd commit yourself to this...and please, while you've been gone, I have so swirled right back into old patterns in my marriage...

I got so lost in the "you're not meeting my ENs" I was ready to divorce (or so I told my DH). And thank goodness for MB...'cuz I previously committed to not divorcing unless it was POJA'd...and I wasn't enthusiastic at all...I was too resent-filled and angry in my lack.

So Amoret and so many others here helped me get my healthy groove back...and my love bank back open for deposits...and revealed those three witches (that's new)...and on and on...oh, all about me, all the time.

LOL

Had to get my true goal back...for clarity...not reactivity...own my own stuff YET AGAIN (doggoneitall) and stop looking for in DH what I wasn't doing in myself.

Funnily enough, DH just miraculously begins to meet those ENs full on...and I couldn't tell you if it was my perspective adjustment or him...so much is my perception...half of it...and my focus sneaks over and burrows into DH, abandoning me...that's my signal I don't pick up on.

Until I see someone on MB doing it and hurting from it...then I feel the hurt and trace it in myself...and bingo. That's where my spiral begins every time.

I'm saying it again, ebulliently...WELCOME HOME, woman...truly...you were missed...you matter. Thank you for coming back.

LA

Good morning, LA--thanks so much for your rich, challenging, and enormously supportive post.

You say,
Well, the pain, fear, and anxiety used to vent itself in behavior I was not proud of. So I used to argue with myself and make harsh judgments. ("Shame on you. You are not being patient or kind. Here you are keeping record of wrongs. You are not bearing all things, believing all things, hoping all things, enduring all things. You are failing to live up to your ideal of perfect wifehood.") Reminding myself of my ideal brought the goal into focus. The self-disgust distracted me from the pain, fear, and anxiety.

Then, once I got better at omitting the unlovely behavior (so I wouldn't have to give myself a scolding), I comforted myself with contemplating what an amazingly unselfish, strong, insightful, loving, and forgiving person I was, to put up with such a <blank> husband (whatever label I applied to the behavior that hurt or offended me) and see past this rude, impatient, unpleasant person to the damaged child inside who was doing the best he could. The one-step-up model of our relationship: I need you to be "less" so I can see myself as "more."

Then (D-day and following), when I saw that he had not, in fact, been "doing the best he could, [poor damaged child]," and had not maintained even bottom-line-minimum husbandly behavior, I gave myself a lot more leeway than I used to, mentally and emotionally.

I even treated myself to planning his funeral--imagining what the music would be, thinking whether and how to let his "favorite partner" know. (She could let lots of the O OW know, since she knows at least some of them.) Inviting OW to the funeral. Fantasizing how I would introduce her to others at the funeral and how uncomfortable she would be--while treating her to the spectacle of how controlled, correct, and in full possession I was.

Comforting, huh?

(To get the magnitude of this self-indulgence, you've got to understand that, in early 1984, I identified "imagining H's death/my burying him" as extreme disloyalty. "How would I feel if I knew he were thinking about me dying and him living on without me?" I asked myself. And for the next 23-plus years, I always disciplined myself to NOT dabble in "imagining H's death/my burying him" daydreams.)

Flash forward to about one month post D-day.

My dear husband closed one session with the MC by saying, "I am ["essentially"] polysexual. I'm entitled to be ["actively" polysexual.] But I can give it up. Amoret's worth it. And maybe someday she'll be hit by a bus, [and then I can go to clubs and wife-swapping house parties whenever I want].

Me (two sessions later): Excuse me--it bothers me, for you to daydream about what your life would be like if I died. I [, the perfect wife,] never do that, because it would be disloyal to you.

H: It was a joke!

Me: It is disloyal to me.

MC: Well, yeah, it may be disloyal, but it [what you would do if your spouse died] does cross people's minds from time to time. I think you are very unusual, to have been repressing those thoughts for two decades. I think everyone has them. It may be disloyal, but it is reality.

So I gave myself permission to no longer be “unusual.” And it will be a very nice funeral, with no operatic scenes. You’re all invited.

(The bunny trail has now linked back up with the "how I comfort myself" path.)

Also on the self-comforting menu since D-day:

I still sometimes treat myself to daydream scenarios of his disloyalty and treachery that would "justify" (yes, even in the throes of concocting fantastic reprisals, Amoret's got to think well of herself) operatic excesses of revenge: hurting him, exposing him, shaming him, etc.

How’s this “for instance” (also links up well with the “hurt feelings” theme, so we can analyze how I’m doing)? This next vignette illustrates BOTH my reaction to him when I’m feeling hurt, and my self-comforting through fantasies of punishment.

Please bear in mind that, last night [when all this happened], I hadn’t read your post yet, LA—so I’m still doing a lot wrong.

H and I are currently installed for a week on a university campus 3000 miles from home. He’s at a workshop devoted to one of his hobbies (a wifely-approved one); I am here as a family member, at the “meals, room, and evening activities only” rate (= “family member”), enjoying various local amenities while he’s improving his skills and getting new ideas.

Wasn’t that nice of him, to invite me? We’ve had some long walks on this beautiful campus, cuddled together on one of the (very narrow) twin beds in our dorm room, and yesterday I spent the day visiting an old friend who moved out to this area almost nine years ago.

So yesterday at dinner, we sat down with a couple other workshop attendees.
New acquaintance: “So you both <practice our hobby>?”
H: “I do.”
NA: “So what are you doing here?” [friendly, teasing, to me]
Me: “I’m here as a ‘family member’.”
H: (Simultaneously) “She’s here as my guard.”

Later that evening, I reminded H of his remark.

H: [Question I couldn’t focus on and don’t recall]?
Me: “I am still stuck on being introduced as your ‘guard.’”
H: “I’m sorry.” [Pause. Repeat of initial unrecalled question.]
Me: [Silence. Can’t formulate thoughts. Don’t know whether to let it go or talk about it. Talking about it will upset H, but I don’t want to pretend to be more tolerant and thick-skinned than I am.]
H: [reacting to silence] “I was just joking! You aren’t going to do this again, are you?”
Me: “Your calling me ‘my guard’ linked up for me with your saying that you were ‘under duress’ last summer, and talking about me as your ‘jailer.’ I’m thinking about maybe leaving early tomorrow and flying home.”

Me (unspoken): [“And calling a lawyer to file for divorce when I get there. Who wants 25 more years of being someone’s “guard”? How about introducing me as “the love of my life”? What am I, chopped liver? You should get down on your knees, and thank God, fasting, for a beautiful woman’s dauntless love, not joke to strangers about her being your ball and chain.”]

Are you getting the “should” in that sentence, LA? Yes. This is the respect I want, how I want it, and when I want it. Three witches circling . . .

But isn’t that a fun little daydream, punishing him with the flamboyant gesture of my leaving him, with the added twist of my leaving him without a rental car here, and without our car in the lot at our airport; then the vast relief and revenge of washing my hands of “guarding” him (nice choice of words, H—you lose the perfect wife who guarded you from yourself and your demons); and embarking on my independent existence?

OK, now back to what I actually said:

Me: “You think you’d have more fun without me, without my ‘guarding’ you any more?”
H: “So are you going to be mad at me?”
Me: “Well, not necessarily. How about if you tell me you’re glad I came and that you are having fun with me here?”
H: [dutifully repeats lines from script I dictate]
Me: [drops the subject]

Ugh. Help!

OK, now back to what you were saying:

I don’t seem to be doing it all that well, actually. I seem to have swung from not listening to myself feeling pain, having fears, being anxious, but castigating myself anytime I favor myself or behave reactively (pre D-day), to getting swept away by my pain, fears, anxiety, anger—and favoring myself in every contest between “his rights” and “her rights.”

(I still have to be “right,” but his being so “wrong” means I can be “right” while no longer being “perfect.”)

It’s still a contest between his rights and mine, and I’m still reflexively comforting myself with the (illusory) vision of “how right I am.” Cold comfort. I’m not there yet.

OK! So, if I’m getting what you’re telling me in your post, I need to say, “Ouch.”

And then say, “That joke hurt. I felt resented, as if I were being blamed for your not feeling free. I felt I was being blamed for your not getting to do what you wanted to do.”

[I’m weeping as I type. Which might tell me I’m onto something.]

“My hurt comes from my fear. I love it that you invited me to come with you, to share an experience that you expected to enjoy so much—that you ARE enjoying so much. I love it that we are doing so many things together and having a good time [list of specific activities].

“But underneath I am afraid that it is not real. I’m afraid that you really think you would be having more fun without me. I’m afraid that you are looking at the women here and thinking, ‘She seems to like me. If Amoret weren’t here, I would be having sex with her . . . and her . . . and her.’ I’m afraid you wish that I had stayed at home.”

Would that have been more to the point, LA? I’m asking, but I think I’m answering ‘Yes.” It feels more like it touches the root right in the middle of me.

You say,
This links up with a recurring bit of dialogue we have. (I don’t know what the occasion was either time, but again I was flailing about, trying to get what I wanted out of him, pushing for a more “adequate” response.)

Amoret [weeping, as usual]: “Don’t you have any compassion for me [as opposed to explanations for yourself and your behavior]?”
H: “I have great compassion for you. I have worried about you so much over the past year.”
Amoret: “Then why can’t I feel it? Why does it feel like I have to take care of myself, plus I have to censor myself so I don’t say anything that might upset you?”

You say,

I know that I must be doing this, because I can swing SO QUICKLY from “isn’t it great, what he’s doing to show his care for me” (all of which is real) to “OK, he doesn’t care at all; I’m out of here.”

What I DON’T know is how to stop. I think it’d be better if you taught me how to get him to give me what I want, when I want it, how I want it.

Never mind. Just kidding. I think.

About soothing: You ask,

I completely get what you are saying, and this I do know how to do. I have an 88-y-o friend whom I visit once a week in the nursing home, and sometimes she gets her feelings hurt, even with me (perfect me! Can you believe it? ;)), because her expectations are not met.

(I figure when you are 88, you have very little to do besides formulate expectations and be disappointed when they are not met.)

Say I told her on my last visit I would come Thursday, not Wednesday, of this week because of some conflict.
But she is 88. So on Thursday, she says, "Where were you? I thought you were going to come yesterday! I was waiting for you."
Me: “I’m sorry you were waiting for me yesterday. I was doing <blank>. I thought I told you last week.”
Old friend: “No, you didn’t. I kept waiting for you, and you didn’t come.”
Me: “I’m so sorry. That’s awful. I hate it when people stand me up. I’m sorry.”
Old friend: “Well, never mind. You’re here now. [Asks me to read or write letter or whatever.]”

I just keep acknowledging and validating the expressions of pain and dismay until the person feels soothed.

I figure that 88-y-o friend felt hurt, and even though she unjustly considered me the cause, I was still sincerely sorry for her emotional upset. And even she calms down when she is acknowledged and comforted.

I wish my dear husband could do this for me, even when I am unjust.

I need to think more about what you say about my complete self, who can do it all for herself. I REALLY DO "resent having to be all of me." I am SO TIRED of having to take care of poor Amoret.

(Maybe it’s because I never did a very good job.)

But that was the cry of my heart, right from the very beginning of D-day: I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS! It is not fair that I should have to go through this! I want someone to take care of me, live my life for me, save me from pain, bring me to perfect maturity (painlessly). I want to be good enough already. I AM SICK OF GROWING!! IT HURTS!

Is “screaming” considered bad manners on this message board?

OK, gotta go have lunch. I will come back to the library and use their wireless connection again after lunch, and see what I can glean from your post on the “negotiating” thread.

Thanks so much,

Amoret

I just wanted to say this is the most in-depth, interesting and thoughtful post I have seen on this site. Amoret, your self-reflection is amazing and LA, your advice and support is mind boggling.

Amor...

I'm hearing a theme...let me know if I'm close...

You would rather be right than be married.

Now, try it on...in your post I saw rights, wrongs, unjust...in relation to stuff, not actions. Stuff.

Can my perception be wrong? It's my own...doesn't make it fact...makes it mine currently. Is there a right, wrong or justice applicable, really?

Thank you very much for your example about soothing...you truly believe you change her feelings with your words. I get that. Can you see where you are half of the soothing, then? You provide the words, the tone, the presence and the intention...she provides the CHOICE to accept you failed her expectation and appreciates your presence now, anyway.

That's not fact...from HER perspective you did...in yours, you didn't. If you go the justice route of trying to prove right or wrong, just or unjust...you're going to distract well from what is and isn't real. Just as you exampled your previous fantasy ways of self-soothing...through distraction (which has it's place temporarily, is beneficial...like distracting to make funeral arrangements gives our brains time to absorb that real loss has occurred)...when we repeatedly distract, then we get stuck, don't heal, don't recover...we just distract longer than the signal comes.

Only thing about our signals? When they don't get acknowledged, they may appear to leave, run out, go out of us...they come back, btw, stronger than before, again and again, until gotten. Reasonably, they take more (quantity) distraction and more intense (quality) distraction to pretend to make them go away.

And they come back.

It's one way of having pain from our earliest times with us for decades...and if someone told you that your child would have to have this specific, intense pain for 40 years you would fight like crazy to make that not so...and yet, we do, even longer, and longer...and we don't recognize, honor, strive to understand and GET the information...and heck, we can't remember what our fear was of it in the first place, can we?

What we bury in ourselves grows in ourselves. We're fertile fields...distraction won't really make anything stop, not have happened or NOT happen (worry is a distraction)...we can sure experience life as if it can.

So...best soothing? Get your signals, message delivered, information accepted and acknowledged (even appreciated) and guess what...pain drops way down--we call it soothed. Comforted...we base whether we are comforted by signals dropping...as if from the outside, others really can control our signals.

Well, because they can, in a way...let's put aside my tricky mixing filter beliefs giving you your signals in the form of emotions for a moment...let's do straight tactics.

"You're a bum. I hate you!"

Okay, you hear this from your child, your partner, your FOO...and your signal jumps up your throat immediately...pain coming in from the outside. What they can cause, they can cure and control.

Comfort/soothing. With me?

However, if you truly, deeply know they are projecting and share about their stuff right now...have no power to define you, and you have no bit of your own truth in those two statements...some secret recipe you make that says "You're really a bum and you hide it well...you're hated. You're not loved" and we DO have these...

then you won't get a pain signal. You'll be interested, aware and concerned for the person saying it--you won't hurt, fear or feel anger. Nothing.

Without your beliefs taking what they think to define yourself, there's no comfort required.

So even straight at you...when you really know...because you really know about yourself and only you define yourself...others cannot soothe, harm, change, or make you anything. When they do make you a sandwich, you may feel comforted...their act of love in the form of service, sharing, added with their presence and your acknowledgment...takes you acknowledging their act of love for YOU to feel it. You can also distract and not see, discount, and bury it, if you choose.

Still your are the factor to either block love, receive it and how much. Scary to receive abundant love. Less scary to give it.

If you think unconditional love is painful, wait until you try unconditional receiving.



So...your thoughts, beliefs, expectations (those premeditated resentments that they really are), and wants...aren't what you thought they really were...because if you knew what you were really saying to your partner, "You aren't giving me what I want" as "You lack. You're inadequate. You're not enough." Boy, would you stop even thinking that.

Those are the words you are saying to your self when you say "I can't get what I want/need from WH." Means you have a hole, are incomplete, partially broken, inadequate, doesn't it?

Every belief has two sides...and we are trained to see, test, pull, stretch and try out the one side...like the heads side...and yet the tails is as active, important as the heads.

Bunny trailing back to right or married. See, self-image HAS to be right...self just is...self is.

It's a great signal to see clearly where earning love/punishment, to feel loved/punished comes in...how we operate from this, one of our oldest beliefs. If I'm good, I'm safe.

Self already IS safe.

About your previously shaming yourself into false comfort...would you consider you chose your mate because he has the shame button, too? May feel like a commonality and connection...and in a way, it is...and in a way, it's harming both of your selves.

Healing from our shame is a big part of the growing up...we may approach our maturity like "if I just do right, I'll be right" which negates you are already right in this world, as is...before you could speak or act. Harms self...comes right from self-image.

Makes your focus dwell hyperactively on doing the right thing...feeling the right feelings...thinking the right thoughts...believing the right beliefs...perceiving the right way...viewing the right way.

Takes our limits and strangles us with them. For what is, is...our stuff. We choose our actions...we want to act in the right way...sometimes to be seen as right...acknowledged as good...hence, safe and loved, admired...tells us we can get others to make us what we already are and deny.

Why we go nearly crazy taking steps, making plans, and having the opposite result...when we spend our lives trying to manage our feelings, we aren't really living, are we? Sure does drive the control freak in us...especially because we are trying to get what we want from others, out of them, get them to act in the right way.

The parallels don't stop. Projection is a tool for signalling us. In the bible, remember the spec in others you see so clearly and can't see the beam in your own? I truly believe God's design is so we can get our signals through others, to help us remove the beam in our own eye...and we take it to extremes...trying to what is already IN us OUT of others.

Feels bonding, like real love...and it's not. It's backwards.

Beware of DJs hiding as jokes. We tried that as kids, remember? What, can't take a joke? I was joking!!! Nope, you were communicating something important in a misleading way. Jokes don't put others down...and if he'd said, "I think she's here to be my guardian" then that's revealing...no joke to self-image!! Humor is a healthy tool to allow a thought or idea to walk into your head without the automatic discounting to keep it out, to sit down and be considered. Like coming at yourself sideways.

Still about him. And it's unacceptable. Say "ouch" right then, in front of others. Calmly and accurately. Do not go for that self-image fingertrap of "What, you can't take a joke?" Because he wasn't going for levity except at your expense.

Mockery and sarcasm are widely accepted in our world...it wasn't always so...right now, it is...all self-expression is accepted...and I could get that if I could stay focused on mockery and sarcasm being a self-image expression...I, too, take it inside me. Let's not and say we did, 'k?

Mockery and sarcasm are listed as verbal abuse...taken to an extreme understanding, they are--they distort communication and then say, "Hey, you didn't get it so it's your fault. I didn't mean that." It's a way of communicating without actually communicating...it's verbally acting out.

Again, when you take it inside, you cross your own boundary...on top of the boundary of disrespect he crossed. So yeah, you're gonna pause and go...who ah wha...for a moment. Sort it out and share...and transform the who ah wha into "ouch" because it may be from you crossing your own boundary, too.

Invisibly. Without a word...taking others' stuff into ourselves as about us is silent. We just do it. Get your signals and sort.

Did I post the twelve intimacies to you? I think I did. When you think in your mind of planning his funeral, one of the intimacies you are doing (oddly enough) is crisis intimacy. What could be bigger loss than infidelity crisis? Going one bigger...permanent loss...death...can actually feel soothing because it distracts from right now crisis...and we don't do crisis well over long periods. Like a YEAR of crisis.

Please accept in yourself that this crisis has gone on too long to bear...when you made those "I" statements and felt those tears...you really got to what you've been distracting from...again, we do nothing without a payoff...and we can distract from our stuff by trying to get from others. Right under our own noses.

I think the crisis of infidelity is imminent loss of marriage, of other half of selves; shattering our self-image, false self-esteem and self-respect...breaks literally our world apart.

So...how has your crisis passed? The demise of your marriage is not imminent right now. You've both chosen to stay in the marriage and to work on it in recovery. Had he not chosen to stop his actions, the death would have already occurred.

For a year now, you've suffered loss of half your self...what feels like it...because who he was, that half that was you, he isn't and really wasn't...and he's new. You are not a stranger to yourself...I think you're really getting to where you are not split in half, you're whole...and he's whole, over there...not you. Part of infidelity thrashing apart enmeshment...if we aren't careful, we will recreate it in our recovery--part of hysterical bonding is in that, too. I think we come to realize, over the years, that enmeshment cannot be recreated...a lot of BS's suffer that loss for a long time...and I think you aren't in that...you saw where the shattering of your own self-image may finally free you...same for enmeshment. For assuming your WH was who he acted like. His actions defined him...told you who he was...until they drastically did not.

Let me know if I'm close...same for false esteem and respect. You have a lot of authentic points for your self-esteem and self-respect...and some false ones. I see you rummaging through them with new eyes...I'm cheering you on, 'k?

So maybe if you listened to yourself...and it's tough to listen to shaming tapes repeating over and over...listen and repeat to yourself...so you can really hear what you're doing, get your signals and be really soothed, bolstered, know your completeness through your own acts of love to self, too.

About involving your WH in symbols of interest and comfort, active compassion...have you considered doing those communication exercises I thought I mentioned but maybe I didn't to you directly? :::insert blush here::: There's one for physical reconnection...and it's not sexual...non-verbal communication may be where your detente occurs so you can know you're allies, 'k?

Here's one we used...just like in the verbal exercises you either pick speaker or listener, in the non-verbal you decide if you're going to do the touching (it's only one way) this time or him. Then the toucher sits up at the head of the bed comfortably, and the touchee lays down with their head in the lap of the toucher. You cannot speak. You can play music in the background...no interruptions. For ten minutes, you touch the head and neck of your partner...in your mind you picture the words you are wanting to communicate...symbols of love, commitment, connection...and you communicate it through your touch...including sorrow, in tenderness, compassion as connection and respect...and you do this to his head, neck and the tops of his shoulders...his face...which is like touching sacred self (why we crave seeing God)...and he can't mock, refute, discount or dissuade...just has to lay there, listening to your touch.

Next day, you switch...next day, switch back...in four days you've got two hours towards your UA time that week.

How about receiving comfort in holding hands, leaning on his shoulder, laying on his chest...without the right words, the right way, the right mood, nothing? Five minutes of looking into each other's eyes...without judgment, panic, expectation...to see and be seen?

These are tougher than they sound, btw. Gives you a front row seat to your own stuff while touching your partner.

The crisis is over...and you may face the demise of your marriage. Don't know yet. You didn't lose face, though it felt like you did...you didn't lose half of your self...you did lose half of your self-image...and growning up is owning up...without fear of punishment...amends aren't punishments, nor rewards...they are our tools and we use them because they are in our code, part of our boundary enforcements.

You go from a human doing (it right) to a human being (all right). Everything will change each time you embrace your being.

Btw, I haven't forgotten the story of your YS...I want to share with you about our YS and DH someday...just not now, 'k? I had your experience...so has other on the boards.

"Don't you have any compassion for me" says "You are not compassionate." Not true. Don't participate in fantasy...you've seen how fatal it is to relationships--something your WH has demonstrated well. Say what you mean to say, "I'm not feeling your compassion, your care, protection or interest in me right now." Affirms he has all of those...and he does...and you're not feeling. Doesn't say he's not doing/feeling/believing...and states your desire to let in his acts of love, and declare his acts of aggression separately.

Power struggles are not love struggles...getting others to is a power struggle...getting it for yourself is a love struggle. They feel very different, and the signals may be the same.

I've wished for a Sorting hat myself.

You can rely on your humor, awareness, strength, desire for clarity, Amor. Those are real and they are really yours. Look to your automatics...they are the source of your pain...and another thing about infidelity--smashes everything you had pat down into pieces...look at those pieces, some are substitutes for the real thing...and you are very ready for the real thing.

LA

P.S. You nailed the gleaning part, btw...harvest what you will and leave the rest. Trust that whatever you need will be there when you need it and in the way you need it. Those three angels persist, too.

Hi, LA. I am trying to read your post for the second time and it is STARTING to sink in. (Dense Amoret.) You say, "Self is already safe."

I am so excited. I am finally GETTING (or starting to get) what you have been trying to tell me with these assurances that self is already whole, complete, etc. etc.

I have been struggling with that idea.

("No, really? That must be why life is so gloriously perfect on Planet Earth--my husband and I are specimens of how whole, complete, and safe human selves actually are." "This is not squaring with what I am used to thinking of as 'sinful human nature.'")

So, just now, on my second read through your post, I flashed back to April, when I was struggling with my new insight into my "one step up, morally" model of my marriage. As I cried about THAT (no, I do not really spend 16 hours of each day in tears--just the part of it I spend or write about on MB ), I kept reciting to myself, like a mantra, "My life is hid with Christ in God."

Which is a misquotation of something Paul wrote to the Colossians, but in the right spirit.

To me then it meant, "If Amoret is not really a good person, just really messed up, that is OK, because 'My life is hid with Christ in God.'

"If my husband has not messed up my life or my marriage, but I have, that's OK, because 'My life is hid with Christ in God.'

"If I decide NOT to pretend anymore to be better than I really am--to be angry when I'm angry, to relate to my husband as a peer rather than as a damaged child, to be irrational and demanding and selfish when that's how I am, to "have the fight" rather than "drop it"--that's OK, because 'My life is hid with Christ in God.'

OK. That is not exactly what you were saying, but now I think I have it in a formulation I can relate to. The self (as opposed to the self-image) that is perfect, whole, complete, and safe, is that same self that is hid with Christ in God.

It's the real self that I haven't messed up, that my husband has not shattered. It was always safe, because it was (and still is) hid with Christ in God.

Whatever that means. Whatever Paul meant. But it sure comforted me in April, and it is linking up now.

Now I am off to process that. I will be back tomorrow to finish my second reading, let it soak in, and process some more.

You are really patient, you know that? You've told me that stuff about self, like, 85 times--just about every time you posted to me. Thanks for not getting tired of it. More later--

Amoret

You know, if I would choose to violate my code, I could smack you for the Dense Amoret remark.

I just don't think striking you for striking yourself unfairly is really the way to go. Tempting though.

LOL

You are not dense. These are HUGE belief shifts...it's like introducing you to another galaxy you've had in your pocket your whole life. Can't emphasize how big a WHOA this is...takes time...your old beliefs are gonna fight it...your old brain (and I'm not talking about your age) which only has on/off to it is going to detect annihilation and rebel.

You'll get goosebumps, I tell you. So the sinking is necessary. Thank you for allowing it to...and sharing your excitement...which brings it all back for me, too. I get to re-experience that intensity and joy all over again. Woohoo! Now I got goosebumps.

Btw, could you hear the self-image say Dense Amoret? Self didn't say a thing.

Freewill is where sinful nature comes in...we can choose to sin, repeatedly, with and without intent. Because our choice is inherent, constant...that's God's respect of us. We get to choose even to love our own creator. Heady, incredible freedom...where I think our fear comes from, btw.

Why wouldn't we then inherently respect others and their freewill...and that it's entirely their choice to love us?

In our human design, we can actually experience life as it isn't...we can go nearly entire lives without experiencing who we really are...because our brains cannot tell fantasy from reality. In God's design, that's essential...how else could we have an intimate loving active relationship with someone who is not human if we couldn't? God is IN reality...takes imagination, openness, creativity and commitment to those to experience him fully as a human being.

Sure can wreak havoc in our relationships with other humans.

You are in a God sanctioned marriage...and it's scared. You sure can experience it differently. Doesn't make it anything else, though, does it?

We are taught from early in childhood that our experience IS reality...to gather evidence to prove your life, who you are, from your choices, your actions, your earning, to mold ourselves...and not shown who we are by design, who created us, really...and for what purpose...to know and be known...especially God. He celebrates connection, love, learning, growing (growing up to God), and he's given his most precious connection for us to be able to do that...he broke the earning mold apart--to smithereens--when Jesus was made man.

When you search for evidence of love to prove you are loved so you can have the experience of love...I think you're doing it backwards. We are MADE from love, our essence, our true selves...and every act we choose from love IS love...doesn't give evidence of our love...and by acting from love we then experience love, loving feelings result...and guess what? Then we see (like the through a glass darkly and then clarity hits in an instant) loving acts all around us...abundance.

We have been loved immensely all the time. Tell me that's not news that has to sink in, repeatedly, over time?

The choice to go into fantasy, to have an A can only be done through justifying, collecting evidence of not being loved, shutting it out...and to stop acting from love...so no loving feelings result...which of course proves they don't love and aren't love.

See how the two-way street can be treacherous for relationships? So it must be to also be incredibly intimate. Fantasy or reality...small choices which give you the experience...not the other way around.

Amoret is not bad or good...Amoret is uniquely made from God, for God and is with God...and in this love relationship, she can't be one up morally. Just ain't gonna happen. She can't earn Christ's love, death or salvation. Nor can she her WH's. Or mine. Or her self.

Your mantra is right on...leading you to your origins, before you chose to believe (which is before you even KNEW you had the power to choose your beliefs) we earn love and punishment.

Goes very much along the lines of your WH seeking pleasure to avoid pain...because he may also believe, "What? All I've done for the decades leading up to my A's is for not? Doesn't count? Won't save me?" Self-image is speaking.

Listen to it...here the child within it...for it was created by you when you were small...and your real self by God, for your relationship with him. Which one do you think is crafted with extreme care, wisdom and artistry? Which one from love and which one from fear?


I appreciate you rephrasing, part of absorbing, to me, shows consideration and you sharing your process is fabulous and dear to me. I offer you taking your first sentence further..."I have decided to not pretend anymore to be better than anyone else to feel safe and deserving."

"I will fear acting or thinking irrationally and not react to my fear. I share when I fear. I am nothing to be afraid of. I will not fear my self. I want to know my self."

Because as you extend and know more of self, you won't demand...for you are not incomplete...you will act selfishly because you are full of real self...that's how you've been, not who you ever were...you just didn't know it. Self-image requires all those things because it hungers from fear. When we act from love, our fear is unnecessary...still the contrast to know, signal us, which we are really acting from. A helper, not a prison.

Same for the fight...you will not see conflict as disconnection...you will begin to see it as honest connection, intimate...and opportunity for respect and acceptance on a deep level.


Beautifully put. God didn't make no junk no time. That's a true ever.


More beauty...you abound in it...and it's just your stuff. How 'bout that? You just helped me out a whole leap...I've been saying and understanding the second stage of marriage as partners showing their true selves...not their best selves. That's not what I meant, really. See, first stage is showing our best Self-Images (the ones we polish, stuff we like about ourselves and like in our partner) infatuation...and the second is showing our not so best self-image, our struggles, demands, holes and voids. Third stage is true selves next to each other, in a sacred union. What do you think?


Oh, hello self-image voice...nice to meet you. Your heart sent you that piece from Paul...a man who was Saul and became Paul...do you really think he was two people? Or could that event on the road to Damascus have been the symbol of embracing his TRUE self...instead of persecutor...his whole, complete self in a blinding light? God could do it. I think pretty regularly, we are to do it ourselves. Our journey. To him.

Self handed you that passage...self doesn't speak, doesn't really act...self offers from love, in images, sounds, the whole "don't know what brought this to mind but..." way.

Self cannot perish. Self can be denied, stepped over, ignored, seemingly remade and discarded. Self cannot perish.

Our self-images can...that's what hits the old, survival reptilian brain...why it sees either emotional, spiritual, mental death as physical death...all one in the same. We were eager to learn what we were taught about earning our very existence...old brain helped. Fight or Flight. On/Off.


Be still and know that I am God. Doesn't say you have to earn him, be good enough, better than or less than...says be still.

Great choices, Amoret...no time limit...I won't get bored or feel neglected or rejected, 'k? That's my pledge. Self-image surely would have in me...you're important and necessary and I am grateful God led you here for me, too. (Not saying only me, 'k?)

And Thank You (capitalized) for saying I am patient in my repeating. Wow. I didn't think of that. I FEAR repeating...when I'm in my perspective (from fear) that I'm beating someone down with it...for we can do that...or using force to persuade, not offer (my intent)...and I totally forgot that love is patient...and repeating is offering again and again, when asked...and isn't a drag nor resistant or bad. It's a joy.

LA