Dude,

If I may suggest reading up on MB's principals and booking a phone session for your WW and yourself. My W and I did it and Jennifer seemed to open her eyes about how much of a fog she was in. I admit I was a bit skeptical about the phone session at first, but after speaking to my WW about how Jennifer woke her up, and put a plan of action together with her...I would say the phone session was well worth the time and money. Money well spent.

Just my 2 cents.

72dude - for what it's worth, just ignore some of the "advice" of some posters, especially from those who have not been around here very long and who are "advising" you from their own present and real pain.

The general "rule" that all members should strive for is to "say nothing if you don't have something positive and CONSTRUCTIVE to say."

There has been a growing mentality of the "kick him/her to the curb," by several members that is not very helpful to people seeking advice on how to SAVE their marriage.

Having gone through SEVERAL periods of recontact during my own 6 year recovery effort, I fully understand your current feelings.

Do YOU want to continue trying to save your marriage despite the "backward steps" of your wife?

If so, encourage your wife to post to JL's thread he started for her and let's see if some "old timers" who have "been there, done that" can be of some help in parting the fog and helping the two of you begin a path of reconciliation and recovery.

God bless.

Thanks for the kind words. I don't know if she will post anymore or not. It was a requirement from me, so we will see if she sticks it out. I really wasn't expecting the assault yesterday either, and we were both tired and at work after staying up half the night being angry. We didn't discuss any R last night, so I don't know where her mind is at today, as she probably does not know mine either.

Yes, feel free to take the advice of the "sages" and maybe you too can be a multi-thousand post member of a site that no one wishes they had ever found, with multiple D-Days (lapses) to follow, just like them.

I'm not a black & white person at all, except when it comes to serial cheaters ... at that point, you cut your losses and move on. Life is too short to continue to abuse yourself by embracing the simplistic notion of "marriage at all costs".

I'm sure I'll hear it from those who have "bought in" to this flawed theory, but look around and make up your own mind about what you want the rest of your life to look like.

The more I'm around this site, the more I'm convinced that going directly to Plan D is the best option for 90+% of BH's, especially in the cases of multiple A's, or a WW who continues to disrespect her BH by continuing in the A after D-Day. Unless its a complete abheration of character and the WW recommits to the M immediately after being discovered, then there will be just too much fallout for the normal BH to deal with long term, and believe me, this doesn't get any easier initially. It will take a LONG time before you even start to feel comfortable again. Protect YOURSELF ... no one else will!!!

This isn't my first rodeo, so to speak either, as she has cheated in the past. I am aware that this is not the first time and there is a complex cycle of destructive behavior that has culminated up to this point. I am at a crossroads, but I am being patient. Even if my marriage cannot be recovered, I need her to fix herself for my child's sake, so there is more to this than just my selfish feelings. Plan D is always available to me at any time, and I have not ruled it out.

Which is why you've been advised not to make any permanent decisions right away.

Level heads make the best choices.

Yep.

And get custody fo the kids...do not leave them with such a person!

I'm glad to hear that Plan D is still an open option ... it needs to remain that way.

I also understand about your child ... I too had a previous D from my 1st wife, who is the mother of my 2 (now grown) children. She was also quite flawed and dysfunctional, and I had to learn the hard way, that I COULDN'T CHANGE THAT and she never would ... she just kept making the same mistakes over and over and over again, just as your WW likely will.

All YOU can do is be the best Dad that you can, and as your son (I believe you said it was a son) ages he will be able to distinguish right form wrong by simply viewing the different life choices that each of you make and which one was the more successful. That is EXACTLY what happened in my case, and both of my children are more connected to me and are like me in many more ways than their mother. In effect, your WW will serve your son as an excellent BAD example.

Just food for thought here. I chose NOT to recover my M - Plan D as it were though I'm leaving the process of that to WstbxH. However, I have been employing MB principles anyway. They have been the essential core of my personal recovery. Though I didn't see it early on, it is clear to me now that you don't actually have to make any decisions right way, permanent or otherwise. Just do the Plans. You are a turmoil of emotions right now anyway - how can you make a life-changing decision? You really don't need to! Start the Plans (though don't stay forever in Plan A). They will lead you to personal recovery and, if your M is salvagable, marital recovery as well. Either way, YOU come out of it better.

Dude,

If there is any chance your ww would come back, there is something I very much would like to say to her. I promise, it is NOT in order to hurt her, it is only to call attention to something that she said that I have personal experience with.

Regards,
Kimmy

That is what they are for, Tabby.

Even if you must D, they are very good for saving yourself.

We just had a big argument and I'm beginning to see a pattern. I think she is trying her best to convince me to pull the trigger by manipulating me into thinking she's not worth the trouble.

I've heard all sorts of stuff tonight from her:

People that post on message boards are nerds and have no life.
She's done so many bad things why would I want her back.
What she has done has had no effect on our son nor will have any.
I'm such a good guy, yet she is attracted to more outgoing men.
I will never be this outgoing guy, so she will be miserable if we stay together, or we will just be average at best.

We left it with she has to decide if she wants to divorce or work on our marriage. She has convinced herself that divorcing me will be the easiest thing to do. Working on recovering our marriage is more risky in her eyes, as she is already dissatisfied with my personality(compared to whom, grr) and I will require a lot of work that someone new will not. I'm just like WTF?

She also is playing this up that she is a horrible person and can't promise me that she can be a good person. I don't understand at all. What the heck does it take to be a good person. Why can't you just BE ONE. There is no book to read nor speech to be heard that can make you have a conscience and put your family first sometimes.

She swears up and down that this other guy has nothing to do with her decision, and I'm torn in believing it. I think her emotional affair has pretty much ran its course before I found out many of the hurtful things she did. But this foggy behaviour she is exhibiting, come to think of it, has been going on for a long, long time. Can she be foggy like this when there is not another guy in the picture? How do I handle that? In the past I haven't handled it too well. I would ignore it or crawl into my shell, but now I am confronting it and making her accountable, but it's really tough.

Also,

Should I have made her post here like this? I really don't know if it has helped or not. I thought it might, but now I'm not so sure. I don't think it has hurt, that's for sure. I think I'm going to leave it up to her and not really require her to do so.

I don't believe that for a millisecond - and neither should you.

I'd bet good hard cold cash there is an OM in the picture.

The truth is, you can't force her to do anything. You can't make her change. You can SHOW her things. Those things may not seep in for quite awhile, but you can bet she's seeing all the damage she has caused by having people hold her accountable here. So yes, IMO, you have done good by 'making' her come her.

Here's my bottom line. She is a disturbed person. I know a lot of psychology and what she exhibits is a VERY dysfunctional person who will continue to run from whatever demon is in her past by seeking out one addiction/escape after another. You're just the poor schmuck who tried to take a chance on her and got too invested.

You have to consider her like an addict. Not because of the affair, although that is a similar experience. But because of her dysfunctional approach to life. The ONLY way such people ever change is to hit rock bottom. To realize what you're losing.

If I were in your shoes, I would be printing out and safekeeping every piece of documentation I could possibly get to show her reckless ways, printouts of emails, bills from the gambling, proof of the affairs - away in a safe deposit box somewhere that she can't get to.

Once you have done that, expose the affair as fast and as hard as you can. Make her life utterly miserable for choosing this coward's path. If she refuses to abandon it, move to Plan B. You're supposed to do Plan A first, but this woman is a serial cheater/dysfunctional/self-absorbed tool. It will take utter devastation for her to even have a chance of wanting to admit all, debase herself to be willing to ask God and you for forgiveness.

If she refuses to work on the marriage after you expose, help her pack her bags, and let her worry about her own future for now. Do NOT make things easy for her. Don't pay any bills for her, don't check up on her, don't let her visit her son without a mediator/supervised visit. Make it miserable. Go very dark Plan B. Disappear. Leave her stranded. For your sake, your son's sake, and hers.

IMO, she has never had to really deal with her self-absorption. You keep rescuing her, you keep 'letting it slide.' That's the only thing you've done wrong so far. If you ever hope to get your marriage back, though, she will HAVE to face this monstrosity she has caused, hit rock bottom, and learn humility.

Her false humility right now (I don't deserve you) is just an act she tells you and herself so she can have an easy way out, just like she's had every single other time.

Make her grow up.

You know, judging from her reaction to everything...I highly suggest you just go straight to Plan B.

It seems that Plan A in general will not really help your wife in this case.

Most WSs react at least in SOME small way, in a positive way to talks from the BS about things. But your wife--well, does not appear to respond to them at all.


Well, she had better start "not having a life" if she's going to save her marriage, is all I can say.

Also, I agree with catperson. You can't help her, only yourself, and you really should, as he says, make her grow up.

Okay, a number of folks thought this might be the case. I think that's because many of us have heard that. You must think she's worth it, or you wouldn't be here. That's a good start for you.


Well, this much is true!


And it's because you made a promise. Remember that promise? For better OR for worse? Here's the worse.


Well, I for one will have 2 disagree.


She believes this now, and it's rough 2 hear, for sure. This is fog latin.


Yes, she does. So do you.


She may be in for a very unpleasant surprise, then.


The "beauty" of fog latin is that it doesn't HAVE 2 make sense. And years later, you can both look back on it and get a good laugh.


It is true that there are no guarantees. Rebuilding of trust, rebuilding "goodness" will take renewed commitment and consistency. And time. But it IS possible. Thousands here have done it.


It is a simple choice, but a difficult process. And while integrity doesn't come out of a book, books and good marriage coaches and/or counselors can help her find it again (it's probably there somewhere, just needing to be rekindled).


Her affections are divided. There is no possible way that the OM isn't a factor. Don't believe it.


Even if the affair has ended (don't assume it has without proof), it will take her a while 2 withdraw.

-ol' 2long

Exactly! She shounds extremely immature. What age did you say she is? From reading her posts, I could almost swear she is no more emotionally mature than a very low functioning 20 year old (if that.) I feel sorry for her poor son.

VERY good post 2Long!

Thanks for the replies.

After sleeping on it, I seem to have a little more clarity. Most of this was said in an argument and may be a little provoked by me or out of context, so please don't use it to slam her in her thread.

I'm going to release her from her posting duties. If she wants to continue to post, which I think would be great and would speed up recovery 100X, but if not I am not going to make it any requirement. I will just be a little disappointed.

I agree I need to be patient, wait for the withdrawal of her emotional affair to run its course, then reassess our future. It's tough navigating through this fog, as I have read from many more vets here, I just need to stay strong.

I love her, and I want our marriage to recover, but it is not essential to my survival. I don't know how else to put it. In the past, I couldn't say that. I have been a self-made, self-perceived doormat for many of the early years of our marriage, and I have brought a lot of this on myself, regardless of whom I am married to, I still have to work on my own issues too. I could have put a stop to a lot of the problems we have had a long time ago by being a man and standing my ground, but I have given in, as I thought to make her happy, but that was not the outcome.

Wish me luck that I can get some work done today!