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"Most of our obstacles would melt away if,
instead of cowering before them,
we should make up our minds
to walk boldly through them."
- Orison Swett Marden
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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Rain, I know what your next steps should be. And they have nothing to do with H or OM. You need to heal YOU. yes Yes YES! Great post, Lex!
I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten. My Story Recovered!
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I can't understand why I keep doing it. He is the most honest and sincere person I have ever known. He has great morals and values and is a wonderful father. I know what I am doing is wrong and I know that our son will feel the effects of our problems by not seeing us intimate, happy, and together. But I ask myself and my H...if we had not had a child 1 yr after marriage would be still be together? And the answer is no. But rain, the fact is, that doesn’t matter any more. Because you DO have a child. Once you have a child, you don’t get to be selfish any more. I’ll repeat this because it is so very important, and so many people these days just don’t understand: Once you have a child you don’t get to be selfish any more. Your life isn’t about you any more. When you got pregnant, you made a commitment to that baby, to be there for him, to guide him, to protect him, to nurture him, and to be a good example for him so he would grow up healthy and whole. my H deserves so much more than that That’s a copout you are using to justify yourself. Does he deserve that? Your son? Of course not. So quit using it. I just can't do it because I still love him and I don't want to hurt him. Then don’t. At least for now. Do the hard work, stay, go to therapy to find out why you keep running from your problems and put your own happiness ahead of everyone else's, admit your issues, ask for help, and learn to be more about other people and less about yourself. That’s not a diss; it’s an explanation of the way you live your life – you keep basing your decisions (good and bad) on what’s best for you; shelf that for a little bit and try asking yourself what would benefit your son, or your H; and then act on that new information. Maybe you just don't realize that people compromise. We make sacrifices all the time because we love others and want them to be happy. We don't always get what we want, because there are other people in the picture; sometimes they have to get what THEY want, too. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
It is refreshin to hear from someone that has been in my shoes. You do not know how much your post meant to me. But she told you to cut off contact with OM, and you didn't answer that. You have ignored that part of every single person’s post in this entire thread - every single person has told you that there is NO valid way for you to continue to associate with him in any kind of moral, healthy world. Yet you refuse to discuss it. Why is that? No one is telling you you have to stay married to your husband. But we pretty much ARE all telling you that you have problems, big ones, that need to be addressed. That level of problems requires professional help. Are you willing to go down that path, so a professional therapist can help you solve your questions?
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Rain,
I'm glad you came back.
It is great you know some of his needs: admiration, loyalty and honesty. Tell me 3 things you admire about your husband. How can you show him that you find these things admirable? A backrub, a card, a special dinner? How about playing his favorite game with him. How about a hug and a kiss? The list is infinite and you know best what would mean something to him.
Rain, it really doesn't matter if you are "just" together for the child's sake. I say that because that isn't a small thing. The best gift you can give your son(?) is a stable loving household with both of his parents. If you look at it that way, that "just" becomes a very loving and compassionate reason to stay married.
And no one here (I think) would want you to live in a miserable marriage. I certainly don't. I want you to find a way to turn this mess of a marriage into something that will bring you joy. Every marriage has issues. None of them are perfect. All of them require hard work to keep it alive. It is hard. It would be hard with anyone that you were married to. If you traded your marriage for a relationship with OM you would just be trading one set of problems for another (larger) set. What do you think your child would want you two to do?
Recreational companionship . . . O.K. Plan a night out. Go bowling, see a movie, go to the art museum, see a play, a concert, a ball game. Go to a water park. Take a boat ride. Take a long drive in the country and have a picnic on the side of the road under an old shade tree. I will bet you your husband will go with you. I've posted to him and it sure sounds like he loves you and wants to make you happy. He just doesn't know how. Tell him.
Rain, of course you have changed in 15 years. So has your husband. Everyone changes. One problem is, here comes my opinion again, that you two just don't know how to effectively communicate. That can be fixed. It isn't that hard really.
You say that you love your husband and I believe you. Why don’t you give him the gift that will mean the most to him in the world? And that is the chance to prove you wrong about his capacity to forgive and love you. Let him forgive you for what you don't think you have the right to be forgiven for. I know you feel guilt. I know that I do still for my past. But you know, I am a different person now. And you can be two.
This stuff between you two can be fixed. Really it can.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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Gosh,
I just don't know whether to try to step into this thread or not.
I've made a couple of posts that have been pretty much ignored.
I totally understand the ambivilence that Rain feels towards her husband right now. Everyone is suggesting that she jump into meeting her husbands needs and just going along with marital recovery.
She is so not there yet. Ugh.
As horrible as she may feel about hurting her husband, right now she is NOT committed to this marriage.
And she is NOT going to be enthusiastic about making him feel better. And do you know why? Because by doing so, she might hurt him MORE. I understand that.
She is just NOT the person able to comfort BH, until she makes a decision on whether she is IN or OUT.
She needs to work on her stuff first.
Hopefully some of you can work on her husband to "be still".
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Exactly! Everyone expects me to do the right thing and stay married and I am left going "ok...but...". I do not want to take my child from his dad. I do not want to have to choose. But I also know I need to be honest with myself and from my behavior before I don't know if I can give my H what he needs or more importantly, what he deserves! Did you read my post from last night?
I've been in your shoes too Rain.
And I know right now you feel like you have NO good choices.
That no matter what you chose, you are going to be unhappy.
I think you feel like staying married is what everyone expects you to do, and is pressuring you to do. And that choice leaves you flat. Its not "horrible" but it won't bring you joy and happiness.
And I think you recognize that choosing OM is a difficult choice too -- because you can see all the negative consequences that come with that choice.
And you are wondering why on earth these two men both want you when you are such a mess!
Rain, I know what your next steps should be. And they have nothing to do with H or OM. You need to heal YOU.
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THANKK YOU!!!!!!!LEXXXY, I dont know what your past is but OMG! You said it excatly and I don't know how long I have been trying to get that out and couldn't find the words to say it. Gosh,
I just don't know whether to try to step into this thread or not.
I've made a couple of posts that have been pretty much ignored.
I totally understand the ambivilence that Rain feels towards her husband right now. Everyone is suggesting that she jump into meeting her husbands needs and just going along with marital recovery.
She is so not there yet. Ugh.
As horrible as she may feel about hurting her husband, right now she is NOT committed to this marriage.
And she is NOT going to be enthusiastic about making him feel better. And do you know why? Because by doing so, she might hurt him MORE. I understand that.
She is just NOT the person able to comfort BH, until she makes a decision on whether she is IN or OUT.
She needs to work on her stuff first.
Hopefully some of you can work on her husband to "be still".
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Thank you for the words of encouragement. I may not deserve it but I really needed it.
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I love that quote....I want to do that...I just don't feel strong enough. "Most of our obstacles would melt away if,
instead of cowering before them,
we should make up our minds
to walk boldly through them."
- Orison Swett Marden
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She needs to work on her stuff first. ITA. Rain, Do you think you could make a commitment towards healing yourself? I already told your husband he needs to work on HIMself while you are doing your work. I promise you, if you work hard on YOU, everything else from being the kind of mother your son deserves on down WILL fall into place.
I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten. My Story Recovered!
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I may not deserve it but I really needed it. Says who? I think you deserve it.
I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten. My Story Recovered!
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I know Rain. Everyone wants you to start taking care of BH and making amends for what you've done. The majority of people here are betrayed spouses -- so they are pushing you towards what they would want from their wayward spouse.
But I understand how much dread you feel about that. I know you're sorry for hurting him. And I know you are sorry for his pain...BUT...you just CAN'T comfort and support him. Because if you do any of those things and still decide to leave, then you are guilty of hurting him even more.
I've been through the hell you are going through. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It was the most painful experience of my life.
Do you have a personal counselor?
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CAT, I appreciate your concern but quite frankly, your posts are starting to anger me. I saw what you posted on my H's thread and I really don't appreciate you egging him on for a D and then coming over to my thread and trying to save me. You have said some really harsh things and I know that is is because I am starting to realize just how different everyone sees this. However, I DISAGREE with you 100% that when I became pregnant it isn't about me anymore. You can make yourself happy without harming your child. I never said an affair was the best for my child..it isnt. Nor is it the best for anyone. But believing that your children burden into never being happy is being a doormat and will only make you bitter. There is a common ground and if I am happy then I will strive harder to make my child happy. I am totally willing to do what it take to make my child happy but I must be happy with myself first. Your children grow up and leave the home and then whaat? If you had read all my posts, contact with him has stopped. I can't understand why I keep doing it. He is the most honest and sincere person I have ever known. He has great morals and values and is a wonderful father. I know what I am doing is wrong and I know that our son will feel the effects of our problems by not seeing us intimate, happy, and together. But I ask myself and my H...if we had not had a child 1 yr after marriage would be still be together? And the answer is no. But rain, the fact is, that doesn’t matter any more. Because you DO have a child. Once you have a child, you don’t get to be selfish any more. I’ll repeat this because it is so very important, and so many people these days just don’t understand: Once you have a child you don’t get to be selfish any more. Your life isn’t about you any more. When you got pregnant, you made a commitment to that baby, to be there for him, to guide him, to protect him, to nurture him, and to be a good example for him so he would grow up healthy and whole. my H deserves so much more than that That’s a copout you are using to justify yourself. Does he deserve that? Your son? Of course not. So quit using it. I just can't do it because I still love him and I don't want to hurt him. Then don’t. At least for now. Do the hard work, stay, go to therapy to find out why you keep running from your problems and put your own happiness ahead of everyone else's, admit your issues, ask for help, and learn to be more about other people and less about yourself. That’s not a diss; it’s an explanation of the way you live your life – you keep basing your decisions (good and bad) on what’s best for you; shelf that for a little bit and try asking yourself what would benefit your son, or your H; and then act on that new information. Maybe you just don't realize that people compromise. We make sacrifices all the time because we love others and want them to be happy. We don't always get what we want, because there are other people in the picture; sometimes they have to get what THEY want, too. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
It is refreshin to hear from someone that has been in my shoes. You do not know how much your post meant to me. But she told you to cut off contact with OM, and you didn't answer that. You have ignored that part of every single person’s post in this entire thread - every single person has told you that there is NO valid way for you to continue to associate with him in any kind of moral, healthy world. Yet you refuse to discuss it. Why is that? No one is telling you you have to stay married to your husband. But we pretty much ARE all telling you that you have problems, big ones, that need to be addressed. That level of problems requires professional help. Are you willing to go down that path, so a professional therapist can help you solve your questions?
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Rain is ambivalent at this point. I am trying to give her some concrete things that she can do if/when she wishes to help fix this. She seems pretty lost to me so I am trying to provide her a map. Of course she has to fix herself. But she doesn’t live by herself, she lives with her husband and her son. There are other people involved here and her actions will have repercussions. As the flight attendant says she has to put on her own oxygen mask before she worries about helping others.
I am a FWS that stayed, initially, for my kids. It retrospect, that was a great reason to stay even though I would rather have left at the time. And I won’t say that my marriage is a smashing success even now. I do get to see my kids everyday and I am blessed for that.
If I'm not helping you Rain I certainly won't post to you.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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I admire his loyalty, honesty, and willingness to forgive. I am just not into giving right now and I know that is a huge problem. I am not into it. I'm just not. I don't want to go on a ride or trip, or vacation, or bowling or any of that. Yes, staying would be the best gift I could give my son. I agree. And myself be miserable? Or will that change? I hope it will because right now I don't see how. I know he loves me and that is why this is so hard. Rain,
I'm glad you came back.
It is great you know some of his needs: admiration, loyalty and honesty. Tell me 3 things you admire about your husband. How can you show him that you find these things admirable? A backrub, a card, a special dinner? How about playing his favorite game with him. How about a hug and a kiss? The list is infinite and you know best what would mean something to him.
Rain, it really doesn't matter if you are "just" together for the child's sake. I say that because that isn't a small thing. The best gift you can give your son(?) is a stable loving household with both of his parents. If you look at it that way, that "just" becomes a very loving and compassionate reason to stay married.
And no one here (I think) would want you to live in a miserable marriage. I certainly don't. I want you to find a way to turn this mess of a marriage into something that will bring you joy. Every marriage has issues. None of them are perfect. All of them require hard work to keep it alive. It is hard. It would be hard with anyone that you were married to. If you traded your marriage for a relationship with OM you would just be trading one set of problems for another (larger) set. What do you think your child would want you two to do?
Recreational companionship . . . O.K. Plan a night out. Go bowling, see a movie, go to the art museum, see a play, a concert, a ball game. Go to a water park. Take a boat ride. Take a long drive in the country and have a picnic on the side of the road under an old shade tree. I will bet you your husband will go with you. I've posted to him and it sure sounds like he loves you and wants to make you happy. He just doesn't know how. Tell him.
Rain, of course you have changed in 15 years. So has your husband. Everyone changes. One problem is, here comes my opinion again, that you two just don't know how to effectively communicate. That can be fixed. It isn't that hard really.
You say that you love your husband and I believe you. Why don’t you give him the gift that will mean the most to him in the world? And that is the chance to prove you wrong about his capacity to forgive and love you. Let him forgive you for what you don't think you have the right to be forgiven for. I know you feel guilt. I know that I do still for my past. But you know, I am a different person now. And you can be two.
This stuff between you two can be fixed. Really it can.
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Rain... Glad to see you back...I really appreciate the change in attitude demonstrated in your posts today...good for you... Alright, I'm gonna dig in here a bit... Even though sex is a big emotional and physical need for him, I did not mean for it to sound like that is his only need because it is not. Rain, Something that helped me A LOT was learning about sex as a real, true emotional need...I never believed that before I came here...When my husband, Mr. W, used to tell me that sex was how he connected with me emotionally I really thought that was bull$hit...Something he was only saying to be able to "get off"...(I think much of that belief system takes root when you are putting yourself out there to be "used" by men that really don't love you...then sex really is about just "getting off"...then there is no emotional connection...it pains me greatly that I did that to myself...) Then we arrived here...I read Dr. Harley's books...I read the forums, and I had to admit that it was more than just a coincidence that ALL these other men were saying the SAME things...Most notably, Dr. Harley, a professional psychologist with YEARS of experience in marital counseling... When I began to see Mr. W's emotional need for sex as just as important as any of mine we began really getting somewhere...And you know what? It is HIGHLY flattering that he wants to be so emotionally connected to me...I seriously dig that, and our sex life is wonderfully fulfilling for both of us now...World's away from what it was... He needs admiration, loyalty, and honesty and I haven't given him that and that breaks my heart. I know I will get a 2x4 for that one but it really does hurt. I can't understand why I keep doing it. Yes, he does need all those things...very true... I know why you are doing it Rain...You are searching...seeking...grasping for happiness outside of yourself...focused only on finding what you believe you lack...you do it by being self-absorbed, and you falsely believe that you will find happiness and contentment in OTHER PEOPLE or OTHER THINGS...Approval from others...Outside validation...Instant gratification...Instant wealth, Good food, or Becoming really skinny etc....You think you will be able to TAKE from other people and other things the happiness and contentment that you crave desperately... Instead of realizing that happiness comes from within and it is a choice...It comes from doing GOOD things...It comes from investing in LIFE...It comes from being of service to others...It comes from dying to self...Focusing on meeting the needs of other people...It comes from choosing to bloom where you are planted... Recreational companionship....this seems to be one of the stickers in the bush for us. I just don't enjoy doing things together anymore. He does not seem to get excited about anything. So I feel like I am imprisoned to suffer for everything I have done. And maybe that is suppose to be the way it is but it sux and seems easier to run away from than to work it out. Yes, I know that is a very bad way to look at it and my H deserves so much more than that. You CAN CHOOSE to enjoy life with your husband Rain...REALLY...It seriously IS a CHOICE...No kidding...It's honestly that simple... I didn't believe it either...I had long believed that life "just happened" to me...When I realized that my life was a direct result of my choices a switch flipped in my head...I understood that I could also choose happiness then...That if I was unhappy, I was responsible for that...When I am feeling down or upset now, I no longer look around and wonder "who did this to me? who is making me miserable?" I already know the answer to that...ME...If I am miserable it is a direct result of my choices...of my not choosing to invest properly in this great life that I'm so blessed to have...The buck starts and stops with ME...It's the same for you Rain...You are no victim...Start being GRATEFUL...Instead of using the phrase "I have to _____." say "I GET to ____." Realize that LIFE is a GIFT to be ENJOYED and CELEBRATED... I did talk to a lawyer. 2 months ago I was convinced that I wanted out. Yes, maybe the OM does have a little to do with it. I am not blinded by all of the warm and fuzzies. It is strictly the difference between the two personalities. They are different people and the OM fullfills more of my emotional needs than I guess I thought about until now. Yes, I felt this with my H 15 yrs ago. I have changed. He really has not. Rain...REALLY, TRULY, HONESTLY, PINKY SWEAR and all that jazz...OM has EVERYTHING to do with why you feel the way you do about your husband...I know because I have been in your shoes and walked across the bridge to the other side...Please allow me to share with you what I've learned...I have no motivation to lie to you...I really do understand where you are... OM fulfills more of your ENs right now because you are actively involved in fulfilling his...Remember, FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS...You are expending a lot of energy on this deal with OM...Far more than you are with your husband...Your thoughts drift to OM when you aren't talking to him, etc...You'll only come to understand this when you go NC with OM and go through withdrawal though...Until then you are unlikely to believe any of us here...It will be oh so worth it for you if you listen to us Rain... No, I do not believe in God. I'm sad to hear this Rain...I hope that you will do the intelligent thing and investigate WHY that is...Really do the research...Make SURE that you are right... Did you realize that many atheists that set about proving that they were RIGHT that there was no God, became Christians due to that research? Study for yourself, I think you'll be very surprised in the greatest way by what you'll learn... Hint: With all this addiction switching (transference) that you've been engaging in, a 12 step program would be a GREAT thing for you...Giving up control to "a higher power" would provide you with a relief that is indescibable...Understanding that you are enough...that you always have been...that you've been accepted from the very beginning and just didn't know it... Looking forward to hearing your thoughts... Mrs. W P.S. Regardless of Rain's issues, the very FIRST step she MUST take is going NC with OM...Nothing can be dealt with until that happens...
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Rain,
O.K. You just can't do these things now. I understand. There was a time I couln't even be in the same room with my wife without it making my skin crawl.
No, do not sacrifice yourself for anyone. Period. I do not want you to stay in your marriage and be miserable. What a horrible way to live.
Breathe. Relax. It took a long time for you marriage to get here. If it is to be fixed that will take time too.
I have been where you are and it sucks.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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You are on the money. And I also feel that if I turn back now, I will look stupid for my efforts and that everyone will think I am crazy...you know like admitting that you did something bad. Selfish, I know it is. It would seem like not such a bad thing I guess if I found out everyone would be more happier if we got a D, including my H. What if he found someone that he truly was happy with because even though he loves me, how in the world can you be a happy person after all this. If I take all the debt from him and he meets someone that he loves and that has not done this stuff to him, then doesn't that make more sense. Help.
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Rain,
the problem is that your H has met someone that he loves . . . and it is you.
Let him decide what is fair to him. He is a big boy.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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Thank you, C_N. That makes a lot of sense.
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