SB
H is on board but cautious and skeptical. I think he wants things to be better between and us and ultimately to have the issues that or neglect in affection that he experienced be wiped out. How ever at the same time he does get disheartend when he thinks that since he has dissussed an issue with me that we ( I ) are past it . But when a trigger resurfaces it reminds him and me that is a really long process and I am not sure how much he or I can take without throwing in the towel.
Everytime I feel the pain that he caused me he feels jiped cause he had pain too in terms of lack of attention and no one seems to be focusing on his pain and loss and he feels like he constanty has to be sympathic to mine.


Part of me feels like he needs hlep dealing with his own feelings in order to be able to move forward ( with or without me ) and if he does not deal with them he will be stuck and become resentful for me having healed and him still feeling a form of void. I have the books lying around and I guess he is free to peek thru the, I am painfully aware that I cannot be preachy about it.

For my part I feel I am being the classic over copensator at this point, trying to meet all his needs that he expresses . I also make sure to convey to him that I see where I failed him in terms of not "SHOWING: him that I loved him and realizing how much of a hole that left in the emotion need that he had.

So this is where the anger phase will set it either at my end or his. Its almost like we are both trying to prove to each other whose pain was worse and the person who caused the more pain needs to overcompensate for the pain they caused. I feel like I am making adequate changes in my behaiour towards meetign his needs so I think I am giving myself a passing grade. How ever if I rate him on the same scale its not at teh same level. Reading more and more i realise that is to be expected for a while, I just dont know how long I can convinence my self to keep giving without getting enough back. I wanna add its not like I am not getting any emphasis is on enough. I wonder if he had to grade our current relationship where we/I would stand.

His other fear that he expresses frequently is that the way I am now is the way I was when we first met and he is afraid that some how the old me will resurface and he will go back to not having his needs met and this could be all temporary cause I am in some sort of denial. One day I will wake up and realize that I truly am mad at him and that I dont want him anymore. Both of which to some point are vaild fears and yet I see no solution for them other than to live thru the days and see what the outcome is.

His other fear that he expresses frequently is that the way I am now is the way I was when we first met and he is afraid that some how the old me will resurface and he will go back to not having his needs met and this could be all temporary cause I am in some sort of denial. One day I will wake up and realize that I truly am mad at him and that I dont want him anymore. Both of which to some point are vaild fears and yet I see no solution for them other than to live thru the days and see what the outcome is.

My FWH said something similar to this, and I felt some of the same feelings you express here.

Then I figured out the response to what he had to say.

When he talked about the fact that he feared that my changes would not last, I told him that part of the burden of that would be on HIM.

Because I could go about meeting his needs, but that this was a TWO WAY STREET. See, this marriage deal is about giving and taking, and he could expect giving from me, but that would also include the idea that I, in turn, had to expect giving from HIM.

That he could not ever expect that any relationship was one in which he would be able to just sit and be a taker all the time. That at some point, he had to fill the other person's love bank, or it would not work - with any person on the face of the Earth.

People are not prone to just give until they are empty, with nothing given back.

So, if he expected that the changes in the relationship were to last, then he had to do his share of work, too. It was only logical, wasn't it? That it takes both of us to make it work - and that if he was enjoying the fruits of just ONE of us working, then GOSH, COULD HE IMAGINE HOW WONDERFUL IT COULD BE IF BOTH OF US WERE TO WORK TOGETHER?????

Would he be interested in pulling the chain in the same direction, WITH ME?

Maybe the books I was reading, and the things I was learning - well just maybe they did have some merit????

Because my changes were in fact REAL changes. And he, too, could help us move forward, if he wanted to. That would add to the insurance policy that the changes I was making wouldn't fade away. He could help make that possible.


He actually then read one of the books I had purchased. Up until that point, he was completely disinterested. Of course, I was not quite "calm" when I spoke to him about the issue - because this "discussion" came about during a little bit of a Plan FU.

You might want to talk with him in a more rational manner than I did with my FWH. It's probably a better plan than I had!!!

SB

To help with motivation, Jennifer had me create a "Why Sheet." Think of this as your own personal cheerleader. Write down all the reasons you want to recover your marriage and build a better marriage. Look at this sheet every day, especially later in the day when we are tired and its easier to love bust rather than be inclined to be productive in our relationship.

Some examples of things you could include on your "why sheet" (why you want to recover your marriage):

1. You know him
2. You know his family; you like his family
3. You have similiar interest
4. You have similiar intellect
5. You have fun together

You get the point.

SB
Makes sense. Thats a good converstaion to have calmy when he brings it up next. Along with that if what you are saying holds true then what is good for the future is good for the past too. The reason I probably stopped being The "Me " he is enjoying right now has a little somethign to do with him too.

As I read this books I realise the variety of emotional needs that are required for a person to be happy and as much as I can sit here and sing my husbands praises ( and belive me I do ) that he is a giving loving guy, I realize that he is/was meeting some of my needs but not all.

That in of itself is a sad reallization because I have let myself to believe for the entire time that he was the "better" one between the 2 of us , hence more deserving and naturally more giving. Now that I am not in the fog of putting him at a higher pedestal ( I still think he is a great guy) I am sadded by the loss of fantasy of that and it forces me to examine the reality of the give and take in our relationship and I think there is a lot of changes need to occur . I dont hold any part of this against my H because I never let him know that he was not giving to me what I needs because I was unaware of the lack of it.

Meanwhile all the "female" ( may be they are male too) issues of having had your H cheat on you still surafce , visulization of OW , anger at the betrayal, vindictive thoughts of wanting to inflcit equal and opposite pain, wanting to sob and cry hysterically and have prince in shinning armour (preferrably hubby) hold you in his arms and make it all go away, swirl around ready to be called upon at moments notice. So between swatting these away and being calm and patient and did I mention keeping 3 little vunerable kids who are home for the summer complety in the dark( so as to not ripple into their life) is an exhausing full time task. I can do nothing but use all my strenght to stay positive, to find strength and keep on walking .

So thanks for all the input and the advise and for providing a place to vent and allowing me to have a sanity check.

Jlr

Thats a very powerful idea. Since I filled out the ENQ I have been kinda sad because it made me realize that what you think in your mind is very different when you actually try to put it out on paper and my answers looked nothing like I thought in my head.

My first thought was I dont need to make a list because I KNOW I want to be in this marriage. My second thought is well whats the harm. If I put a list on paper then it can only help re-inforce why I am puttign myself thru this in the first place.

So may be I will try and it and see what my inner cheerleader is cheering for me to do. At the very least it will foce me to be honest about why ...

wmf,

I could have written your post a couple of years ago, minus the part about the kids. My kids are older and have moved out, on their own.

Instead, I take care of two sets of older adults - his folks and mine.

Same thing, only different!


And I had to keep them in the dark, because one is taking care of another who is feeble minded and going down fast, and the other was having heart problems and cancer surgery at the time. So I was basically on my own.


This forum saved me. Now that I'm where I am, I can give back what I learned.


You're right about the idea of looking back and understanding how it got to be where it was. Everyday life sort of creeps in, and you both stop doing things.

Also, the EN's change over time. What worked for you when you were 20 or 25, and didn't have kids, just doesn't work when you're 30 and have kids. Your needs change. So does your taste in clothes, for that matter, and your taste in movies, furniture, so many things.

My EN's have changed from when I first took the ENQ when I first found this website. I look at them every now and then, because things change. I've learned that Openness and Honesty remains at the top, but the others fluctuate. It pays to do this from time to time, and when you get your husband to do it to explain to him that it is something that changes over time. Talk about it with him, and talk about the concepts of needs, about what his needs were when you two first were married, right at the point when he decided to have the affair, and compared to now, and that this is something that you are looking at in order make things better. And that you think that you would like to look at it every now and then, too.




There is also something that you said that makes me think about doing something that might be very helpful for you. I say this because he did bring it up - so there is something he is wishing for, thinking about, that he loved about you back when you first got married. Ask him about what he misses about the person you were when you first got married, about what he loved about you, and what made him attracted to you. I thnk you should talk to him about that "you" back then. It is an exercise that will do a number of things for you and for him.

First, it will force him to think about a time when he was really in love with you! That bursts the "I never was in love with you" crap that the affairee often says. When you talk about good times, it brings up memories that are rich in emotions and positive feelings, and elicits the same brain chemicals and activates them - so this works to help him recall those emotions as REAL, as NOW.

Next, by talking about the qualities he loved about you, he brings out the things in a concrete way that tell you what you need to work on. It helps you to understand what it is that he is missing in the relationship, and maybe can help you focus more in your changes. If I'm not missing my mark, you're probably missing some of the same things, too. Being a mom takes some things away from us that we long for, too.

It will also feel very complimentary to you. When he talks about the things he loved about you, you will find yourself feeling really special and emotional. It will be a very bonding time between the two of you, and he will also feel this bonding. Don't be surprised at how loving he becomes through this exercise.

I did this with my husband, and was really surprised. He was pretty honest, and I saw the changes in me that he saw. Some were good, others not good. But we both saw many of the same things - but he did see some things that I didn't even notice, that were so nice of him to say. And he said he was proud of me, and I was surprised to hear him say that, too.

Expect to be surprised.


SB

Re-inforce, exactly, you need re-inforcement when you are struggling and your Taker wants the easier solution of saying 'why is this worth it, why am I struggling when he hurt me this much'...which is when you can remember you have your "why sheet" for just this occasion. You can pull it out and remember what the benefit of struggling thru recovery is for. Your Taker is going to come out full force sometimes and you need to have these reminders to put the Taker in place...make sure there is balance.

Another good time to take a nice look at the sheet is before any scheduled A talk. It can help you to remember that you do care for your H and want to have discussions that do not have love unit withdrawals.

re: SB comments on talking about what it was that he loved about you when you were first married; this will also bring positive memories for you too that will reinforce the decision to recover your marriage.

SB
That statement is odly comforting. If you could have in the past been where I am an be where u are today, I guess there is hope for my healing.


Sounds like a good exercise. I will have to find some time to do that one. Currently we are dealing with a family health crisis ( not directly to either of us) so I feel like this has to be on the back burner for the next few days and I know that only makes it harder but life does not always give us a staright line to walk on. There are always curves ...

Jlr

Like you described the taker is in full force today. I read SAA and then have re- read SAA and now I have a pencil in my hand and am underlining all the stuff that seems to hit a nerve with me. ( I think soon the whole book will be underlined)
In this moment it seems like the challange of following the MB path is too too insurmountable and I am struggling with "why do I have to do this " when "he hurt me so much" .

He gets the better end of the deal, an attentive caring spouse, an awake and re-focused spouse who is trying to ensure that he is the top priority in my life, meeting all his needs and allowing him to feel the joy in havong some one be " newly in love with you".

Meanwhile I get the be patient, put the hurt to the side , dont expect much in return , trust him but keep your eyes open feeling , keep your anger in check and wait and see if he can feel "newly in love " with me side of the deal. Almost seems like becuase I did not meet his needs for affection for so long and now this is just the lop sided relationship I shoule be content with, thats the best its goona be and that I should be happy as considering that he has chosen me over OW.

May be I am reading it all wrong but part of me thinks is it really worth the fight for what the end result will be

And in moments like this you can come here to have others to help you with your struggles. Not every marriage can be recovered but you do not want to make a decision like this so soon. Your emotions are raw and likely your H is still foggy.

It is also momements like this when you wip out the "Why Sheet" to help you remember why this struggle will be worth it in the end.



No, no, no. You are not settling. You are not going to just be happy because your H chose you over the OW. You two together are going to build a new relationship. One built on mutual love and respect. One where both your EN's are being met.


I think you might be misreading right now. The end result is going to be something that was better than before. That side of you that wants to feel good right now is showing its ugly head. That side is short sighted.

Your appointment is with Jennifer next week, right? Will it be with your H or just you the first time?

EDIT: Might be a good time to re-read some of what schoolbus has written...

jlr

Thanks for the support.


I know thats the goal I just dont see how we are (or any one for that matter) can ever get there after this.

I did have a session with Jennifer last week , it was a joint session she spoke with H for a while and them me and then us together. Either I had too high expectaions or I was expecting a magic cure all dose of something, but it did not do it for me. I have the next seesion for Tues next week but honestly I am not expecting much from it. Most of the info she gave me was stuff that I gathered from the boards or the books.

My converstation with her was more philosphical about affairs in general and for some reason (not sure why) it never got to a point of specifics reagarding my situation and my feelings. H's conversation with her was more of a personal his needs not being met kind. I did not listen in as I wanted him to be able to speak without me as a factor. I do think (from what he tells me) that she tried to show him what the impact of his action were and if that helps lift him out of the fog that would be great but i have not seen that result yet.

She gave us both homework, which included reading and working on ENQ, both of which I have done and redone. Hubby has had a lot of external factors family health issues, work etc and has not made it a priority to do it yet. I think that is part of the disheartening feeling.

I think I am going to give the session(s) a chance but for me it has not provided the same level of helping as I had expected it would. By same token reading and posting at the boards and hearing from fellow path travellers is helping tremendously.

I am putting us and him first priority and as much as he says he wants to work on this and ILY and is sensative to my needs and pain his actions are not following. Part of it is personality ( he is a procrastinator) part of it is he is really truly dealing with a lot right now ( work, family health) and part of it is he is in a fog and withdral.

Hence my earlier post on how regarding the A and recovery of our relationship and marrige he gets one end of the stick and I get the bum end of the deal for now.

OK, remember this is marriage coaching, not marriage counseling. The Harley's focus on action more than feelings. You might want to consider a marriage counselor (MC) or individual counselor (IC) to discuss your feelings. Also, this board is a great place for talking about your feelings. What you are feeling really is normal. If you read other threads you'll see that this anger, hopelessness, HOPE, etc. are all there with others too.

As far as your situation, I'm sorry to say that really a lot of the A sound the same. Just minor details changed here and there. I know that has to be tough to hear but in reality that is great, that A are so similiar. You have a lot of people that have been there and thrived afterwards.


Oh that wonderful fog...it takes a while for it to lift. When your H returns you will know. All I can say about fog is that it really bites for all involved. I also think, that at first the sessions are more beneficial for the WS...you already have buy-in for this program. You just need some help with seeing the end result.

Can you schedule time with your H to work on the homework? He NEEDS to make it a priorty. Work is nothing without a family at home (I understand that family health issues might not be as easy to work around).


Yes, you are getting the bum of end of the stick right now. Focus on the future, on what is to come once you rebuild this relationship. Remember the honeymoon period? You can have that again and now you'll know how to keep it.

Also, this is a time to think about you and rebuild yourself. You had quite a blow.

I dont know how to do that without soundsing preachy . Not to mention I do love him and as a caring person I can see that he really is dealing with a lot and dont want to add more to his plate. Here is where I am helping myslef by not nagging. 1) That was a behavior he hated so not doing it. 2) Lettign him figure out when/if he wants to make it a priority all on his own will let me know when he actually does it that he did it becuase he wanted to work on us not because "I'll do it cause thats what she wants" or thats the price to pay for me being a wayward.

I read the books in bed, they are lying around us all the time so he knows they are there. I sent him links to this website ( not the boards dierctly ) but he is pretty computer savvy so he can find his way around if he wants to.

Also there mare several factors that compound to the woe is me pity party. A few weeks back ( its now 2 months and 11 days since d day) in one of our early marathon discovery sessions I asked if he had used any protection. Answer no (there was no danger of pregnancy I am aware of that) so WH offered to get STD testing on himself to put the matter at rest. Since then nothing. Finally after mustering enough strenght for myself I made an appt for myself for a gyno visit. Did that on Wed and got scrip to get full std work up on myself. Went yesterday to the lab with H as ne needed to get bloodwwork for a previously regulary scheduled physical. So he got cbc I got STD work up. So he knows I got it, no need for me to preach about it and yet no effort on his part to get it dont for himself or to appease me. Another I/ mending our relationship is low on priority slam in my mind. Not to mention that even thou the Doc said there was no sign of any thing wrong it was embarrasing to go thru the discussion and now I have a 2 week wait before I get results. The rational side of me knows that I did a good thisng for me but the sentimental side of me says all of this is too hard and I am angry for aing to deal with it at all.

I am sure he sees all of these events completely differently from the way I do. He thinks he is doing a lot or more importantly may be he thinks he is doing enough to make this work. If he was a real jeark the decision would be so simple for me. It so complicated by the fact that I dont see him as a jerk and genuinely care for him. He needs help healing from the fog and withdwarl of ehat he lost from the loss of OW and the loss of me being there for him fro all the past years and I dont know how and whether I can hold it together while he heals. And if I do hang in there will the result be the glorious mutual respect and love that you guys all speak of.

So far in this entire decison making process I have only focused on whether on not I care enough to want to be with him. I have not factored the kids and their needs into the equation . I am afraid if I move into that phase it will only cloud my judement on wanting to stay just for their sakes.

You are not adding to his plate. He did that.

You broach it like this...

"Honey, I know there are all these other factors going on now but I would really love it if we could schedule an hour on Saturday morning (before the kids are up) to complete our homework. How would you feel about that?"

That opens it up to him to see that it is important to you and at the same time you are giving him the option to let you know why Saturday morning would not work. If Saturday morning (or whatever is normally a quiet time for you without kids) doesn't work he can offer alternatives as to when.

I'm a procastinator too. Sometimes I need deadlines to help motivate me and sometimes my self imposed deadlines just don't work. I need outside forces. I don't think that makes me a kid, just makes me realize that sometimes I need someone else to hold me accountable otherwise I will wait even longer.


Until his head is cleared he is going to think that he is doing everything possible and you are just impossible to please. Have you talked about boundaries and EP?

And right now he is a jerk. He should have gotten STD testing (and he still NEEDS to get tested). Here again, he'll probably remaining a jerk until the fog clears.

I'm going to put a shout out for some of the vets to come here. I don't know how to offer advice on this. Just know I'm here thinking of you.

{{{wannamoveforward}}}

Thanks Jlr


I'll try that even thou I feel like I will be preaching I'll give it an honest to godness gentle unresentful nudge.


Sorry cant agree with you on that , may be I am in my own fog but I still think he is a "good guy" and no where near being a jerk. I think in this case its still his procastination that is hindering him from doing that. That and his own level of threat in that he does not think that there was anything about OW that makes him think that there were any red flags regarding STDs. I am proud of myself however for getting tested and biting the bullet on that one and braving it out. Now just have to get thru the next 2 weeks of waiting on results. Hopefull it was needless aggravation and part of the pain and suffering of the A.

Wow that makes me think that I must be in real denial because It scares me to think that my issues are sever enough to need help. I know I am here so I must be needing help but its scares me think that this is serious stuff. I wanna go to bed and wake up and all of this be a bad dream.

I do appreciate all your and Sb's help and I keep re reading all the posts and finding tidbits that I missed and that all the stuff you guys say helps whether the reesults are immediately visible or not.

We all want to go to sleep and have this be a bad dream. Sadly it isn't.

And putting out a call for help, is a GOOD thing because it helps us to feel useful and give purpose when our own lives aren't doing what we want.

I have to head out, but will check back later to see if I can add anything. People will help you if you let them. It can be hard at first, but this place has been my life saver. And I am so grateful.

We all need help and one day you can give back to someone else on here who needs help.

Qnl


The giving of help itself I am fine with. The taking of help is what scares me. I dont see my self as some one who needs help or I should say I have not often found myself in a position of asking and taking help. So all of this is very uncomfortable and sad for me.

Its almost like my identity is not who I thought it was. I have always belived that I am astrong person and the realization that I am not is saddening.

At the same time I realize that if I dont work through this and come out whole I will be destroying my life, the life of my 3 kids and to some extent cause pain in life of the man that I love. So I will try to look at it as I am strong enough to know when to get help

I am so glad that these boards help me vent my happiness and sadness and allow me to spare burdening/impacting my 3 young kids and sabotaging my recovery with my hubby.

Oh, I'm sorry. I just meant that some of things you are going through, while I can empathize with you I was on the other side of the fence and that makes me feel that I can't offer you the best that there is out there.

It isn't that your situation is worse than any others, just that I feel inadequate. I ditto Queenies sentiment that calling out for help is a good thing. Actually I ditto everything she said.

RE: Jerk - we can agree to disagree. I think you can still love someone when they are being a jerk so maybe its just a matter of how you term that word and how I term the word. I can have a potty mouth ( ) so I would have used a stronger word if it was something where he was no longer a "good guy."

SB has a lot to offer you. You'll get a wealth of knowledge from SB, Queenie and others (even if it is just from reading their threads).

You are a STRONG person...don't ever doubt that.

Trying to keep that still true , I guess if I make it thru this ordeal then I will never have to doubt that ever again. I may have a lot of flaws (only a few that I am willing to admit ) but if I survive this and still come out whole I know that took strength to do.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna focus on the things that I can take care of. I need to write down for my self what it is that my H could do in order to meet my needs. When ever he is ready to meet them it would be simpler if I have a clear working knowledge of how he can meet my top 5 needs. Jennifers suggestion was to amke a sort of
I love when you or I would love it if you would ...
so I am going to spend some time tonight on that. I have a babysitter scheduled for 6 pm tonight so she can take the kids somewhere fun while I can cry my eyes out and make this soul searching list.
It will be kinda eye opening for me cause rioght now all I see is the emptiness of my needs not being met. This list should give me an idea of what I think will make me happy. and when ever I am able to share it with H it will be a clear and unambigious information of what I need so no trying to "read" my mind.

May be my H is trying to fill my needs in ways that he knows best or thinks that will help, no different from what I did all of those years when he compained feeling unloved by me. This might be a clear road map for him and I so he is not topping my car with windsheild washer fluid and expecting me to be overfilled with his thoughfulness and caring. ( even though we all know how terribel it can be to drive in the rain without winshield washer fluid.)