I am very new to this board and its my first posting so please bear with me I don’t know all the lingo yet.
My Dear H and I have been married for 14 years and have 3 kids 11,9 and 7.Over the years our lives progressed and we followed the normal ups and downs of any relationship but as I learned now, my husband felt some what neglected and uncared for as I gave less and less to him and felt more like a task master than a source of joy.
So he felt more and more unhappy and I was unable to see his unhappiness because I felt I was giving and loving while dealing with my own frustrations in life of having given up a career to raise kids( I quite after the 2nd) , and lead what i thought was a normal progression of life.
Two months ago my hubby went on a business trip and came back changed and I suspected that he was having an A. After weeks of denying the signs to myself , I finally question him directly on it and he admitted to having found some one while he was away and that she came to visit him here and they have been in constant contact for the last 3 weeks . As you can envision my life came crashing down . He had decided that he was ready to leave the life he had with me and try a new life with this new source of joy and understanding that he had found . .
What I knew immediately in the aftermath of the pain and fog was that I love my husband and I did not want to loose what we had and thru the tears and pain was able to communicate that to him. So we talked , I cried and after 2 days of marathon communications , my hubby decided that he was willing to give our relationship another go and terminated his relationship and I am assuming all contact with OW.
Since then we have been speaking, crying, sharing and trying to work on what ever this new US will be . There are many good days and there are many bad days.
What I need some help in moving forward is how do you deal with the pain and the grief and simultaneously work on healing me and us.
My Hubby is what you would call a “good guy’ and has been supportive of my questions and need to know and dwell on what happened but every time the thoughts of the A surface or I deal with the issues of the A I feel like I am moving backwards not forward.
So I would appreciate any advise on how best to deal with this and move forward at the same time . Especially if you have already been where I am and can offer any advise on what helped and what hurt.

wmf,

This is the very early days following what is called d-day in your life and marriage.

You will be experiencing up and down emotions, and the crying is normal.

The recovery of your marriage and "moving forward" may take up to two years, so please know that this isn't an easy thing to get over. There is a lot of work for both of you to do.

Your husband needs to write a no-contact letter to the other woman (OW), and allow you to read it and approve it. Then, YOU mail it to her, so you can be sure that it is sent.

He needs to give you passwords to all email accounts that he has, and open access to all cellphones, including work email and cellphones. He needs to be very open with you about where he is at all times, and you should be able to get in touch with him at any time you desire. His schedule should be open to you - in other words, his life should be an open book.

If he complains that he needs his privacy and you do not trust him, then tell him that he has broken trust, and that the only way to save the marriage is for openness about his time and life to be there - which means that there are no secrets.

He must have the truthfulness and openness and honesty to answer any and all questions you ask about the affair. No question you have should go unanswered. There should be no secrets between him and the OW. This is to ensure that you know what you need to know, and to break any trust or sense of connection between the two of them.

Do not blame yourself for his decision to have an affair, or for his affair. HE IS 100% RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVING AN AFFAIR.

The affair is NOT ABOUT YOU. It is about him - you must understand that, while you want to believe that you have all sorts of control over him - you are NOT THAT POWERFUL. He made this stupid and hurtful decision, and if you had any vote in the matter, you would have voted NO! Remember that. The affair was not about you.

The marriage likely did have its problems leading up to the affair. You are BOTH responsible for those problems. Identify them - look at this website, for the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Both of you need to take the questionnaire. Take a look at his ENQ, and go to work meeting his top 3 EN's.

Read up on Plan A. Go to work on that as well.

Order the books "Surviving an Affair", and "After the Affair". I found both of them very helpful.

Do not blame yourself for his affair. That is on him. He could have talked to you. He could have asked you to join him in marital coaching. He could have read a book about marital issues. He could have asked you to look at some marriage materials with him. He could have used the Internet to find answers for the marital issues he thought existed. Instead, he went outside the marriage. That is on him. Please remember that the decision to have the affair was not yours, and that you didn't "make him have an affair" or "drive him to have an affair".

I'm glad he is willing to try to work things out. If you have the money for counseling, the Harleys who run this website are reportedly some of the best in the business. They are probably worth talking to.

Hang around and keep posting. The vets will be along to help you.

SB

Thanks schoolbus



Dh has already closed communictaions with OW via phone call( I was not present ) . She lives internationally. I want to trust him enough to know that he cant be in 2 boats at the same time so I am sure that is NC right now.

He is open and willing to answer all the questions I have truthfully. I am not sure is he saved all his email correspondence ( he used an alternate disposable email address)and I am afraid the deeper I probe into the deatils of their conversations the more pain and hurt it will cause. trighat now I am currently focusing on the fact that he was at a point of being emotionally detached from US and now I am focussing on reconnecting "us" , and gathering more deatils about "them" can only hurt not help "US".
This is a tough one because I know that I was not giving him the best me there was to give , so current plan is be a better me so I can offer the best me. If that does not work for us or is not good enough then I can accept the 100% not my role in me not playing a factor in "us" being where we are today. He did try to talk to me and say that his ENs were not being met but I did not accept his words beacuse I was loving and giving the best I knew or could to the relationship.

He will try to blame shift, and tell you that he had the affair because you didn't meet his needs.

That is crap.

He had the affair because he CHOSE to have the affair.

He could have chosen otherwise.

You see, having one's needs met or not met within the marriage may be at issue. However, the way to solve the problem is NOT to have an affair. The way to solve the problem is to have an adult discussion, go to counseling, read marital-related materials, etc. Having an affair will not solve marital problems - it CAUSES MARITAL PROBLEMS. DUH.

One of the things I asked my husband was:

Do you believe that if you spent the time with me - instead of with her - seducing me, having dinner with me, talking with me, telling me your problems, telling me what you needed, desired, wanted, thought about, that we would be having marital problems??????

His answer was "NO".

The reason is this: The time he was spending seducing her, talking to her, befriending her - all that time spent could have been spent improving the relationship with YOU. It could have and should have been spent working on the problems with you and your marriage, telling you about what he needed, meeting YOUR NEEDS, and in return meeting HIS NEEDS.

That time is golden to a marriage, and he squandered it on someone else.

Wasted.

He wasted his efforts of thought, emotion, time, in the wrong direction. Had he spent that effort in the direction of his wife, it would have paid off ten times over, because you would have loved the opportunity to be his girlfriend, wouldn't you? To have been romanced, talked to about his innermost feelings, told what you needed to improve on to be his best wife ever? Sure, if done in the most loving way possible, you bet you would have.

Now, you have that opportunity. Do the ENQ together. You do yours, he does his. Then, swap them and talk about them. You will both be very surprised.

And by the way, talking about the affair will not make things worse. What will make things worse is NOT talking about it. It will not go away by ignoring it. That is about the single worst mistake you can make. If you don't talk about it, this will not be dealt with properly, and your marriage will be doomed to face it again. You two need to have open communication about this event, and be able to talk about what happened - to talk it through, until you both are comfortably done talking about it.

It isn't a good idea to have marathon talks every day, no. But you also cannot just "ignore it and it will go away" either.

You will be having a lot of work to do. Please, read the topics and advice on the links on the right side of this webpage - - >
so you can have better understanding of what to do.

Read, read, read.

SB

Thanks for all the info and advise you are giving me. I guess I am struggling with the not blaming myself for causing him to look elsewhere issue.
Was I really paying attention to his ENs? Accordint to my H he was telling me for about the last year or so that his ENs were not being met and I was not responding or changing my actions to meet them. Obviously I dont see it the same way cause I think our relationship was not as connected as it was when we first met and 14 years have passed but I also dont think that we were so detached that he needed to look elsewhere.
So the internal struggle of trying convince my self that it is not my fault continues.

wtmf,

First of all, please look up Plan A, and be sure you are doing all that you can.

You cannot preach to him right now. He is likely in withdrawals from his OW. But, for your own education, I offer the following:

I completely understand why you feel that you are to blame for your husband's affair.

I felt the same way at first. Ultimately, though, you need to understand that he had many other choices besides going outside the marriage. He did, and you know that. You are thinking emotionally right now, and sooner or later you will think logically.

There's so much going on. You see yourself and your faults. The many times he wanted sex and you told him "no". The times when you didn't put on make-up or dress nicely, or when you were griping about this or that. When you didn't want to go out, or when he wanted to do one thing and you complained about wanting to do something different. You are looking at all of the wrong things you did, and focusing on what he is saying as all of the reasons for his "having to have an affair".

Well, he is WRONG.

He didn't "have" to have an affair.

He had options. While it may be true that he had tried to tell you about his emotional needs not being met, that did NOT give him permission to seek sexual or emotional support outside the marriage.

Not having your needs met is NOT a free pass to have an affair.

If that were the case, NO MARRIAGE WOULD BE AFFAIR-FREE.

Can you see that?

Gee, honey, you weren't able to meet my sexual needs this week due to your recent brain surgery, so I had an affair.

Gee, honey, you were emotionally unavailable to me due to your business trip the past two weeks, so I had an affair.

Sorry, honey, you have been deployed to Iraq and unable to meet my needs for a year, so I have had an affair while you're gone serving our nation's security.

That excuse of "not meeting my emotional needs" is NOT A FREE PASS TO AFFAIR-LAND. There is no free pass to affair-land. Sorry, doesn't work.

No excuse. No justification. Do you see this?

You are not to blame for his decision to have sex with another woman. PERIOD. He made that decision without your input. He acted completely independently, and trying to blame you is

chicken-sh---.

He needs to own his own behavior, because to try to blame you is NOT going to work in moving the relationship forward.

HE OWNS THE AFFAIR.

You can own what you are supposed to own, that's fine.

HE OWNS THE AFFAIR.

Any attempt on anyone's part to push the affair onto YOU is wrong wrong wrong.

The affair is not about you. This is a difficult concept to understand, and I hope that you will come to understand it soon. Once I came to grips with this concept, everything else got much easier for me emotionally.

The affair is about the person having the affair. Nothing else.

Let's look at that in depth.

The affair is about the person having the affair.

The person having the affair - in this case, your husband.

He had the affair - NOT YOU.

How then, can YOU have controlled it?

You didn't. You had NO POWER IN IT. No decision making power in it. No voice in it. No control over it. No knowledge of it. No part in it. No participation in it. No speaking role in it. No emotional role in it (until now). You didn't send emails. You placed no phone calls. You sent no messages. You sent no gifts. You received no gifts. You traveled to no restaurants or bars. You did not go to anyone's home. You kissed no one, touched no one, etc......

You controlled nothing in that relationship, and had no controlling power in it.

How then, can you be held responsible for any part of it?

You cannot. Because the relationship had nothing to do with you.

You are not, and were not, a part of that relationship.

It was secret and apart from you, because:

IT WAS NOT ABOUT YOU.



In fact, it was so much NOT about you, that it was kept separated from you as completely as possible, wasn't it?


The affair is, and was, about the person in the affair.


Sure, emotional needs has something to do with it. Let's talk about that part of it.

There is something to the idea that emotional needs are not being met, so the affairee goes outside the marriage to have them met.

That is NOT the only choice. They do not HAVE to do that.

The affairee makes a terrible choice to do that.

Marriage Builders is all about methods to go about building marriages so that affairs do not happen in the first place.

But the methods can work to repair marriages after affairs, just the same.

It is hard work, though.

One of the things that will be difficult for you is that you will have to begin meeting his needs, even though he will likely be in withdrawal from his OW. This means that he will still be comparing you with her and missing her, although he is with you. You see, it's going to be hard for awhile - this means that he will say stupid stuff like "I had to have an affair because you didn't meet my needs". He will have difficulty owning his share of the problems, and during withdrawal time he will not be saying negative things about the OW. He won't see her faults, etc. He will see yours! That's why you need to be in Plan A, and avoid lovebusting.

This is going to be very hard. But if you stick to it, you can do it. But in the meantime, you need to concentrate on not accepting the blame for his affair. Know in your heart that it isn't your fault. There will come a time, in the future, where he will see this. Not now, but in the future. For now, you won't be able to convince him of much of anything. From what I understand, if he stays away from her and doesn't contact her, it will take about a month or two before he starts being more himself again.

Someone who had to go through a more emotionally based affair with withdrawal can better advise you on this. I didn't have to do this myself.

Please, order Surviving an Affair, and look online for After the Affair. They are very good books, and will help you a lot. You need them. Also, read this website's advice. It helped me so much.

I also read many threads on here. Some of the members give good advice, others are not so helpful. I tended to look at those who gave advice consistent with Marriage Builders concepts and followed their advice. Familiarize yourself with the basic concepts, because they WORK. I was at one point wondering if my marriage would make it through, and I stuck with it.

We are recovered.

Today is our 33rd anniversary.


Going strong.

SB

Wow
I am reading and rereading all the stuff you wrote and I wanted to post a quick note to say Thanks cause you probably dont realize the impact its having in terms of helping me.
It will take time for it all to sink in but I belive I am in the transition of changing from thinking emotinllay to thinkiking logically about this.

In the meantime this is exactly where i am

I am attemping at meeting his needs because I can and I want to and yet I hve to keep reminding my self that he cant TEMPORARILY meet mine because he has his own sturggles about greiving from the loss of what he had to give up to be here. I will read up more on Plan A and get the books u recomend.
Thanks I really appreciate your input. Its hard work and a difficult path but I want to walk it and it hepls to have some where to turn to while you try to help yourself.

Congrats on your recovery and your aniversary. It provides so much hope to me.
Any way I orderd How to survive an affair and I waitign for that. IN the menwhile I picked up his needs her needs and have been reading that and it seems to bring insite into a lot of things.

From what I understand of plan A I think I am past that phase as my H terminated all contact with OW immediately after our first marathon session the night we first talked.
Now I think I am stuck in the "he is in withdrawls" from his relationship phase.

Since he abruptly ended communictaion with her, he still regards her as she can do no wrong and is completely and uttery bettern than everyone , was willign to give him so much inspite of the pain he caused her. She was/ is avaiable and singe so he feels tremendous pain for showing her hope in her own life and then letting her life line go. Whiel simultaneoulsy feeling the pain of all the wonderful warth that he was getting from her and now having lost all that. Doubled with how hard it is to face the consequnce of dealing iwth his actions and having to talk to me instead of being able to escape to the easy of not dealing with it.

I know I cant help him or preach to him to recover I just dont know how to continue to watch him suffer and work thru it while puttign aside my own need for him to heal so we can move forward.
Any advise on what I can do or more importanly not do in this difficult for me to get thru phase ( asuuming its a phase) and not give up cause its really really hard to think about his pain when I have so much of my own.

I just wanted to add an update. I signed up for a counseling session (joint) with Harleys. I belive we will be speaking with Jennifer next week. Can anyone who has done that let me know what to expect in the 1st sesion. I am a little worried about the session as I have never been in any counseling before and not sure how the call will go. Do we spend most of the 1st call sharing our info ??? Any advise will help as I am nervous and unsure of what to expect and how it can hlep more so cause its not a face to face session.

In the meantime ups and down continue we are talking a lot and hubby and I had a marathon session of information sharing. He gave me tons ( I mean tons) of painful details regaring the time he was with OW and I tried to be calm and have the discussion with out any pentaly or further reprecussions to H but I am having a tough time keeping the information from dragging me down. Trying to not have to go for numbing drugs and not crawl into a hole and abandon my kids needs is pretty challening . So here I am, venting and hoping it will help.

I thought that knowing everying is better than not knowing but now the details are swarming in my head and I am not so sure it was the right move to have all that info given to me.

Bumping - cause I could really use some help here , having kinda hard day today dealing with not crumbling and keeping it together .

WMF ~

My thoughts are with you. I don't feel I can offer much for support with words of wisdom but know that you are doing the best you can do.

I've had sessions with Jennifer. She is really great and will provide you with lots of useful information and guide you well. If you haven't received it yet, you will recieve a link for a love questionnaire (sorry don't recall the title) but it is a quick little survey to help her gauge where things are at. Are both of you going to do the phone session or is it just you this time (both are helpful)?

I was going to ask if you access to email but duh - you wouldn't be here if you didn't. I would send an email to the MB address and put "Session with Jennifer" in the subject line. Then ask that this email be forward to Jennifer for your appt on July XX. After that give some back ground (brief but enough detail to cover what needs to be said - I had a teacher once say that your writing should be like a womens skirt, long enough to cover the subject but short enough to keep in interesting - not PC but funny and true) regaring you, your husband and your marriage. This will help get some of the background information out of the way before the phone session and allow more time to focus on the future instead of filling her in on the past. (My background email was probably 2 paragraphs of this size.)

Trust me, people far more enlightened here than me will respond. I just wanted you to know that someone was here and I could help with the Jennifer session backgroun a little.

Take care.

wmf,

I'm no expert in withdrawal stuff, but I will do the best I can to help you out.

Your behavior at this point needs to be upbeat and supportive for him, so that he can understand that you can accept him back into the marriage and forgive him. He has to know with certainty that there is a way forward, and that this affair will not haunt his life or be held over his head forever. This is very important. While you are hurt and going nuts, he also has his pain. I know this is difficult to balance, but it is a critical point in the recovery process for both of you to work through. The BS often feels like their feelings are on the back burner at this point - and in truth, they are.

It will take 3-4 weeks for this to play through, if true no contact is maintained. Hang in there. He will slowly but surely come through this, and begin to realize that home is okay, home is the best decision - that is, if he consistently sees you with a supportive and accepting attitude, and you avoid love busting. I swear, sometimes you think you will be nominated for sainthood after this process!

Things you can do:
avoid putting down the OW
listen to him
use the Plan A skills - don't stop!
meet his EN's
be honest with him, but avoid LB's at the same time
avoid long relationship talks, try to limit the length of them
make sure your appearance is nice, hair clean and done, make-up on, etc.
keep the house clean, etc.
get your 15 hours a week in together of RELAXING time
touch him
do some fun things and talk about little happy things with him
don't fall into the trap of "all affair all the time"
compliment him
tell him you appreciate his honesty when he does tell the truth about his feelings and the affair with you
thank him when he tells you about things that could be improved in the marriage
ask his opinions about things around the house - just little things, like the garden, or decorating, whatever

You get the idea - get him involved again in the family, and in everyday events. It doesn't have to be always about the affair. Try to put the wheels back on the cart a little bit at a time. Take the kids to McDonald's and let them play on the playscape, or just go to the park. Try to uncomplicate things for him, so that he does not have to "think" about anything.

Don't ask about everything at one sitting - and tell him that instead of marathon talks you would rather just have 30 minute talks on one topic. You two need to POJA about how you're going to talk about the relationship, the affair, and the problems, and when you're going to talk. The marathons are not a good way to address one another, and they can lead to problems down the road. If you POJA an approach, and schedule the time and limit the talks to one topic and a time of say, 30 minutes, it is much more safe feeling for guys. That way you don't wear out each other, and belive it or not, you won't get all upset. Write your questions down ahead of time, and then look them over two or three times. Eliminate the questions that really are not that important. Stick to the 30 minute time limit. Schedule the "talks", and then let it go! Just say, "Time's up" when time is up, thank him, and then say, "Let's watch a video, because this stuff is just so hard on both of us. I'd much rather cuddle, wouldn't you???", or something else. You both need to learn how to talk this out so it is productive and less emotionally wearing. It is going to take many months, so the sooner you both learn how to talk on one thing at a time, think awhile, and come back to the table later, the better.

You need to POJA how the talks should go - my way is a suggested starting point. Talk to him about the idea and see what he thinks about limiting the marathons. I did this with my H and our talks were exceedingly less emotional and we had a much better communication between the two of us. It wasn't long before my H was much more comfortable just sitting and talking with me about almost anything. Prior to "the rules", he just clammed up and almost refused to discuss anything!


I'm glad you're getting the Harleys in on your case. I've heard great things about them.

In the meantime, try also to focus on improving on the things your H has indicated he found lacking in the marriage prior to the affair. The changes in this case should probably be considered permanent, and your thoughts need to really be homed in on what he has said to you about what the major problems were. You have probably also identified major problems and have already determined what you need to work on. He will be watching your behavior in this regard, and you will need to be sure that you SHOW him that you are making efforts at changing the marriage, and the only way to do that is through ACTION.

For example, my H complained that my weight bothered him. I lost 56 pounds. The first 12 came quite rapidly, and he expressed concern - I told him that I planned to make changes, and the only way he could be certain that those changes were made would be if he SAW changes. He didn't believe the weight would stay off.....it kept coming off and two and half years later is still off.

Another example was that he said he felt like I "controlled" him. I asked for very specific examples so that I understood what he considered controlling behavior so I could avoid it. Just this weekend, my BIL was sitting on a barstool next to me, and fell asleep. I left him alone. My H asked me why I didn't wake up my BIL and tell him to go to bed??? I said, "I didn't want to be seen as controlling. I have been told that telling other people what to do is controlling, so I don't tell anybody what to do!"

Later, my H said, "You can tell someone to go to bed if they're going to fall off a barstool! You've NEVER been controlling! I was just being an a$$ and when I said you were controlling, I said that because I wanted to hurt you. I take it back, and in the future, wake the poor guy up!!!!"

He probably meant something in the middle - like I bugged him sometimes, and he didn't like it.

So, like I said, your H will say stupid stuff when he is in this phase, so don't take it all the way to the bank. But at the same time, you kind of have to go with it, because he's watching to see if you will try to work with him and work on the marriage. It's a catch-22.



I'm trying to help you as much as I can! Sorry my posts are so long. I'm hoping some of the vets will come along and kick in here!

SB

ditto - and bump up

I wanted to add that for some BS's, the details are not a good thing. For me, I wanted every single detail.

Maybe it isn't such a good idea for you. Might be better if your conversations were arranged so that you were allowed to ask him for details as you needed them, instead of his just telling them all to you (if that's what he's doing). Or, it might be a good idea for you to really think about the details you want to know and wait on it, give it some time to gel, and then ask the major questions only.

Thanks Jlr1120
I will send out an info email today to provide some background info that might help with the phone call . That seems like a good idea .

Schoolbus
Thanks for your post it has so much info in it that everytime I re read it I see somethign new that I missed before.


Sometimes its a hard struggle to stay motivated to give when not enough is coming back. So whan I feel that way I have to remove myself from the expecation that my H will help me along and find my own fuel to keep on going ang giving.
So thanks for lettign me know that its normal to feel on the short end of the stick for a while and to not load up the expecations at his end for now.
And then there are some great moments where my H does things to make me feel like on top of the world , when I see he makes the effort and attention to what it is that I need. In those moments it almost seems like may be I/we am/are on the right path and will actually make it thru this dark tunnel.
Its a rollercoaster and dependning on when I do a stauts check I could be on the roller coaster on the way up or down . I am looking for the happiness needle to settle on some steady scale so I can gauge where we will end up.

That status needle can move on the hour!!!!


You know, when I was in the early days, I thought I would run out of giving. There was a point when I did a Plan FU, and told my FWH that if he didn't start doing his share of the lifting that I was leaving. I just ran out of steam.

You go through these phases where you think you just cannot go on. But you can, really. You just don't want to work anymore. You think, "Love isn't supposed to be this hard!" Truth is, love isn't that hard. It's the marriage part that is so hard.

My daughter once told me that "love is unconditional".

I told her that I didn't know about that. I told her that I wanted to rewrite that phrase a little bit.

Love MIGHT be unconditional, but RELATIONSHIPS ARE conditional.

And the fact is that after an affair, the truth of that comes crashing in. We've been told all our lives that love is unconditional - so we expect that marriage will come naturally if we love somebody.

So it just slaps us right upside the head when marriage turns out to be work!

It isn't easy living with that guy/girl, even though you are in love!

And if they have an affair, all our other beliefs - well - talk about being slapped upside the head. They go right out the window, too. I believed I wouldn't stay if my FWH had another affair, yet here I am.

This time, however, I know things are going differently. The recovery process is much different, and we are talking much differently about the whole ordeal. MB and the guidelines has made the difference.

I also think that reading here about the different stories has helped, because I knew what to expect next. I knew that at 6 months I would hit an anger phase; that I would have triggering moments throughout; that the recovery would take about two years once we both started really working on the marriage; that at 12 months I would have another anger phase; that I needed work on my approach to meeting EN's and so did he; etc.

The concepts helped. It was getting FWH on board that seemed to be the hard part. Still is, in some ways. He's reticent still to talk about some things, although willing to take action if a plan makes sense. Fortunately, the MB plans make sense to him, and so when I talk about them, he buys in.

Hang in there. I hope you have ordered some books (Surviving an Affair, After the Affair, Not Just Friends - these are a few good ones!). Read here, and post!

SB

SB

I cant imagine what its like to go thru this again. My immediate thought is that now that I am aware and alert to his needs and I am working at fulfilling them I dont think I would make the same choice of wanting to have another go at it.
Then again I didnt belive that My H could do that nor if he did that I would stay with him. So I never say never now but I cant imagine finding the strenght and courage to do it again.

Your H is a lucky man to have you and I hope he makes you happy.

I am working on letting the triggers go and not allowing them to swallow me. Recoganizing when I am too tired to deal with things and just letting them go for a while.

I am in the anger / hurt and happiness phase at the same time. Sometimes I am so hurt and other times I am so happy its just insane . When I feel happy its when its the scariest because I dont understand how thats possible without some form of denial.

I dont know when and if its normal to feel happy in between all this craziness. One thing I know I am a better and different me, I take more notice of me and my needs and my actions which allows be to define better what woudl make me happy and then when that happens I allow myself to enjoy the moment. Also I pay closer attention to what makes my H happy and when I achieve that its a nice feeling.

SB
I just wanted to add that I received surviving an affair this morning and I have been reading it non stop. Seems like I am crying and learning at the same time. Some pages are hard to get through as they bring back the memory of the pain and others show exactly how I am feeling and its hard to let go.

I can see how the plan could potentailly work but at the same time its ironic that its a hard path to follow and double hard beacuse of the weakened spirit due to the pain of the A.

But I'll keep reading ( I am half way done) and take hope in all the success stories out here to let me keep beliving that it can be done.

wmf,

I'm glad you got the books. You are really in the very early points after d-day, and that rollercoaster is a tough ride.

I cried for a long time after I found out. It seemed like things would level out, and then I would find myself back on the downhill slide.

At six months after d-day, I was really angry. I wanted so much more work from him, and was pretty resentful of him.

I had a monkey wrench in the works, too. He had been diagnosed with prostate cancer about 14 days after d-day. This added to the stress level, because the only thing I could think of was that his OW was going to be his last sexual memory, and that he wasn't going to be able to have sex again due to the cancer.

I was plenty angry, hurt, confused, and really had to get myself on the fast track to recovery. I did that, and pushed through things that I don't think others really had to push through.

So at six months, I had an anger phase that included anger at the cancer, too. Not only the affair, but a general feeling of being robbed of so very much of life. It was UNFAIR. I had a wonderful pity party. Lasted awhile, too.

Poor pitiful me.

I did a nice little Plan FU with the man at one point, which helped motivate him into some action on the marriage. I Plan FU'd myself, too.

I put lots of effort into looking at forgiveness, and focused on how that released anger. It does. That helped a great deal.

FWH and I did do a lot of work on the MB plan, and I pretty much pushed him ahead in his personal cancer recovery - he went through depression from the cancer and from his affair behavior and guilt from his stupidity. Together we are pulling back together as one again.

He is recovered, and I'm happy to say there is sex after prostate removal. Most people don't believe that, but the new surgery spares nerves and leaves things "working". So the OW isn't his last, not by a long shot! That in itself made a lot of difference for us.

It is work, I won't lie to you. But ultimately you can put things back together. Your husband has to be involved to make it really work.

How much is he on board?

SB

SB
H is on board but cautious and skeptical. I think he wants things to be better between and us and ultimately to have the issues that or neglect in affection that he experienced be wiped out. How ever at the same time he does get disheartend when he thinks that since he has dissussed an issue with me that we ( I ) are past it . But when a trigger resurfaces it reminds him and me that is a really long process and I am not sure how much he or I can take without throwing in the towel.
Everytime I feel the pain that he caused me he feels jiped cause he had pain too in terms of lack of attention and no one seems to be focusing on his pain and loss and he feels like he constanty has to be sympathic to mine.


Part of me feels like he needs hlep dealing with his own feelings in order to be able to move forward ( with or without me ) and if he does not deal with them he will be stuck and become resentful for me having healed and him still feeling a form of void. I have the books lying around and I guess he is free to peek thru the, I am painfully aware that I cannot be preachy about it.

For my part I feel I am being the classic over copensator at this point, trying to meet all his needs that he expresses . I also make sure to convey to him that I see where I failed him in terms of not "SHOWING: him that I loved him and realizing how much of a hole that left in the emotion need that he had.

So this is where the anger phase will set it either at my end or his. Its almost like we are both trying to prove to each other whose pain was worse and the person who caused the more pain needs to overcompensate for the pain they caused. I feel like I am making adequate changes in my behaiour towards meetign his needs so I think I am giving myself a passing grade. How ever if I rate him on the same scale its not at teh same level. Reading more and more i realise that is to be expected for a while, I just dont know how long I can convinence my self to keep giving without getting enough back. I wanna add its not like I am not getting any emphasis is on enough. I wonder if he had to grade our current relationship where we/I would stand.

His other fear that he expresses frequently is that the way I am now is the way I was when we first met and he is afraid that some how the old me will resurface and he will go back to not having his needs met and this could be all temporary cause I am in some sort of denial. One day I will wake up and realize that I truly am mad at him and that I dont want him anymore. Both of which to some point are vaild fears and yet I see no solution for them other than to live thru the days and see what the outcome is.

His other fear that he expresses frequently is that the way I am now is the way I was when we first met and he is afraid that some how the old me will resurface and he will go back to not having his needs met and this could be all temporary cause I am in some sort of denial. One day I will wake up and realize that I truly am mad at him and that I dont want him anymore. Both of which to some point are vaild fears and yet I see no solution for them other than to live thru the days and see what the outcome is.

My FWH said something similar to this, and I felt some of the same feelings you express here.

Then I figured out the response to what he had to say.

When he talked about the fact that he feared that my changes would not last, I told him that part of the burden of that would be on HIM.

Because I could go about meeting his needs, but that this was a TWO WAY STREET. See, this marriage deal is about giving and taking, and he could expect giving from me, but that would also include the idea that I, in turn, had to expect giving from HIM.

That he could not ever expect that any relationship was one in which he would be able to just sit and be a taker all the time. That at some point, he had to fill the other person's love bank, or it would not work - with any person on the face of the Earth.

People are not prone to just give until they are empty, with nothing given back.

So, if he expected that the changes in the relationship were to last, then he had to do his share of work, too. It was only logical, wasn't it? That it takes both of us to make it work - and that if he was enjoying the fruits of just ONE of us working, then GOSH, COULD HE IMAGINE HOW WONDERFUL IT COULD BE IF BOTH OF US WERE TO WORK TOGETHER?????

Would he be interested in pulling the chain in the same direction, WITH ME?

Maybe the books I was reading, and the things I was learning - well just maybe they did have some merit????

Because my changes were in fact REAL changes. And he, too, could help us move forward, if he wanted to. That would add to the insurance policy that the changes I was making wouldn't fade away. He could help make that possible.


He actually then read one of the books I had purchased. Up until that point, he was completely disinterested. Of course, I was not quite "calm" when I spoke to him about the issue - because this "discussion" came about during a little bit of a Plan FU.

You might want to talk with him in a more rational manner than I did with my FWH. It's probably a better plan than I had!!!

SB

To help with motivation, Jennifer had me create a "Why Sheet." Think of this as your own personal cheerleader. Write down all the reasons you want to recover your marriage and build a better marriage. Look at this sheet every day, especially later in the day when we are tired and its easier to love bust rather than be inclined to be productive in our relationship.

Some examples of things you could include on your "why sheet" (why you want to recover your marriage):

1. You know him
2. You know his family; you like his family
3. You have similiar interest
4. You have similiar intellect
5. You have fun together

You get the point.

SB
Makes sense. Thats a good converstaion to have calmy when he brings it up next. Along with that if what you are saying holds true then what is good for the future is good for the past too. The reason I probably stopped being The "Me " he is enjoying right now has a little somethign to do with him too.

As I read this books I realise the variety of emotional needs that are required for a person to be happy and as much as I can sit here and sing my husbands praises ( and belive me I do ) that he is a giving loving guy, I realize that he is/was meeting some of my needs but not all.

That in of itself is a sad reallization because I have let myself to believe for the entire time that he was the "better" one between the 2 of us , hence more deserving and naturally more giving. Now that I am not in the fog of putting him at a higher pedestal ( I still think he is a great guy) I am sadded by the loss of fantasy of that and it forces me to examine the reality of the give and take in our relationship and I think there is a lot of changes need to occur . I dont hold any part of this against my H because I never let him know that he was not giving to me what I needs because I was unaware of the lack of it.

Meanwhile all the "female" ( may be they are male too) issues of having had your H cheat on you still surafce , visulization of OW , anger at the betrayal, vindictive thoughts of wanting to inflcit equal and opposite pain, wanting to sob and cry hysterically and have prince in shinning armour (preferrably hubby) hold you in his arms and make it all go away, swirl around ready to be called upon at moments notice. So between swatting these away and being calm and patient and did I mention keeping 3 little vunerable kids who are home for the summer complety in the dark( so as to not ripple into their life) is an exhausing full time task. I can do nothing but use all my strenght to stay positive, to find strength and keep on walking .

So thanks for all the input and the advise and for providing a place to vent and allowing me to have a sanity check.

Jlr

Thats a very powerful idea. Since I filled out the ENQ I have been kinda sad because it made me realize that what you think in your mind is very different when you actually try to put it out on paper and my answers looked nothing like I thought in my head.

My first thought was I dont need to make a list because I KNOW I want to be in this marriage. My second thought is well whats the harm. If I put a list on paper then it can only help re-inforce why I am puttign myself thru this in the first place.

So may be I will try and it and see what my inner cheerleader is cheering for me to do. At the very least it will foce me to be honest about why ...

wmf,

I could have written your post a couple of years ago, minus the part about the kids. My kids are older and have moved out, on their own.

Instead, I take care of two sets of older adults - his folks and mine.

Same thing, only different!


And I had to keep them in the dark, because one is taking care of another who is feeble minded and going down fast, and the other was having heart problems and cancer surgery at the time. So I was basically on my own.


This forum saved me. Now that I'm where I am, I can give back what I learned.


You're right about the idea of looking back and understanding how it got to be where it was. Everyday life sort of creeps in, and you both stop doing things.

Also, the EN's change over time. What worked for you when you were 20 or 25, and didn't have kids, just doesn't work when you're 30 and have kids. Your needs change. So does your taste in clothes, for that matter, and your taste in movies, furniture, so many things.

My EN's have changed from when I first took the ENQ when I first found this website. I look at them every now and then, because things change. I've learned that Openness and Honesty remains at the top, but the others fluctuate. It pays to do this from time to time, and when you get your husband to do it to explain to him that it is something that changes over time. Talk about it with him, and talk about the concepts of needs, about what his needs were when you two first were married, right at the point when he decided to have the affair, and compared to now, and that this is something that you are looking at in order make things better. And that you think that you would like to look at it every now and then, too.




There is also something that you said that makes me think about doing something that might be very helpful for you. I say this because he did bring it up - so there is something he is wishing for, thinking about, that he loved about you back when you first got married. Ask him about what he misses about the person you were when you first got married, about what he loved about you, and what made him attracted to you. I thnk you should talk to him about that "you" back then. It is an exercise that will do a number of things for you and for him.

First, it will force him to think about a time when he was really in love with you! That bursts the "I never was in love with you" crap that the affairee often says. When you talk about good times, it brings up memories that are rich in emotions and positive feelings, and elicits the same brain chemicals and activates them - so this works to help him recall those emotions as REAL, as NOW.

Next, by talking about the qualities he loved about you, he brings out the things in a concrete way that tell you what you need to work on. It helps you to understand what it is that he is missing in the relationship, and maybe can help you focus more in your changes. If I'm not missing my mark, you're probably missing some of the same things, too. Being a mom takes some things away from us that we long for, too.

It will also feel very complimentary to you. When he talks about the things he loved about you, you will find yourself feeling really special and emotional. It will be a very bonding time between the two of you, and he will also feel this bonding. Don't be surprised at how loving he becomes through this exercise.

I did this with my husband, and was really surprised. He was pretty honest, and I saw the changes in me that he saw. Some were good, others not good. But we both saw many of the same things - but he did see some things that I didn't even notice, that were so nice of him to say. And he said he was proud of me, and I was surprised to hear him say that, too.

Expect to be surprised.


SB

Re-inforce, exactly, you need re-inforcement when you are struggling and your Taker wants the easier solution of saying 'why is this worth it, why am I struggling when he hurt me this much'...which is when you can remember you have your "why sheet" for just this occasion. You can pull it out and remember what the benefit of struggling thru recovery is for. Your Taker is going to come out full force sometimes and you need to have these reminders to put the Taker in place...make sure there is balance.

Another good time to take a nice look at the sheet is before any scheduled A talk. It can help you to remember that you do care for your H and want to have discussions that do not have love unit withdrawals.

re: SB comments on talking about what it was that he loved about you when you were first married; this will also bring positive memories for you too that will reinforce the decision to recover your marriage.

SB
That statement is odly comforting. If you could have in the past been where I am an be where u are today, I guess there is hope for my healing.


Sounds like a good exercise. I will have to find some time to do that one. Currently we are dealing with a family health crisis ( not directly to either of us) so I feel like this has to be on the back burner for the next few days and I know that only makes it harder but life does not always give us a staright line to walk on. There are always curves ...

Jlr

Like you described the taker is in full force today. I read SAA and then have re- read SAA and now I have a pencil in my hand and am underlining all the stuff that seems to hit a nerve with me. ( I think soon the whole book will be underlined)
In this moment it seems like the challange of following the MB path is too too insurmountable and I am struggling with "why do I have to do this " when "he hurt me so much" .

He gets the better end of the deal, an attentive caring spouse, an awake and re-focused spouse who is trying to ensure that he is the top priority in my life, meeting all his needs and allowing him to feel the joy in havong some one be " newly in love with you".

Meanwhile I get the be patient, put the hurt to the side , dont expect much in return , trust him but keep your eyes open feeling , keep your anger in check and wait and see if he can feel "newly in love " with me side of the deal. Almost seems like becuase I did not meet his needs for affection for so long and now this is just the lop sided relationship I shoule be content with, thats the best its goona be and that I should be happy as considering that he has chosen me over OW.

May be I am reading it all wrong but part of me thinks is it really worth the fight for what the end result will be

And in moments like this you can come here to have others to help you with your struggles. Not every marriage can be recovered but you do not want to make a decision like this so soon. Your emotions are raw and likely your H is still foggy.

It is also momements like this when you wip out the "Why Sheet" to help you remember why this struggle will be worth it in the end.



No, no, no. You are not settling. You are not going to just be happy because your H chose you over the OW. You two together are going to build a new relationship. One built on mutual love and respect. One where both your EN's are being met.


I think you might be misreading right now. The end result is going to be something that was better than before. That side of you that wants to feel good right now is showing its ugly head. That side is short sighted.

Your appointment is with Jennifer next week, right? Will it be with your H or just you the first time?

EDIT: Might be a good time to re-read some of what schoolbus has written...

jlr

Thanks for the support.


I know thats the goal I just dont see how we are (or any one for that matter) can ever get there after this.

I did have a session with Jennifer last week , it was a joint session she spoke with H for a while and them me and then us together. Either I had too high expectaions or I was expecting a magic cure all dose of something, but it did not do it for me. I have the next seesion for Tues next week but honestly I am not expecting much from it. Most of the info she gave me was stuff that I gathered from the boards or the books.

My converstation with her was more philosphical about affairs in general and for some reason (not sure why) it never got to a point of specifics reagarding my situation and my feelings. H's conversation with her was more of a personal his needs not being met kind. I did not listen in as I wanted him to be able to speak without me as a factor. I do think (from what he tells me) that she tried to show him what the impact of his action were and if that helps lift him out of the fog that would be great but i have not seen that result yet.

She gave us both homework, which included reading and working on ENQ, both of which I have done and redone. Hubby has had a lot of external factors family health issues, work etc and has not made it a priority to do it yet. I think that is part of the disheartening feeling.

I think I am going to give the session(s) a chance but for me it has not provided the same level of helping as I had expected it would. By same token reading and posting at the boards and hearing from fellow path travellers is helping tremendously.

I am putting us and him first priority and as much as he says he wants to work on this and ILY and is sensative to my needs and pain his actions are not following. Part of it is personality ( he is a procrastinator) part of it is he is really truly dealing with a lot right now ( work, family health) and part of it is he is in a fog and withdral.

Hence my earlier post on how regarding the A and recovery of our relationship and marrige he gets one end of the stick and I get the bum end of the deal for now.

OK, remember this is marriage coaching, not marriage counseling. The Harley's focus on action more than feelings. You might want to consider a marriage counselor (MC) or individual counselor (IC) to discuss your feelings. Also, this board is a great place for talking about your feelings. What you are feeling really is normal. If you read other threads you'll see that this anger, hopelessness, HOPE, etc. are all there with others too.

As far as your situation, I'm sorry to say that really a lot of the A sound the same. Just minor details changed here and there. I know that has to be tough to hear but in reality that is great, that A are so similiar. You have a lot of people that have been there and thrived afterwards.


Oh that wonderful fog...it takes a while for it to lift. When your H returns you will know. All I can say about fog is that it really bites for all involved. I also think, that at first the sessions are more beneficial for the WS...you already have buy-in for this program. You just need some help with seeing the end result.

Can you schedule time with your H to work on the homework? He NEEDS to make it a priorty. Work is nothing without a family at home (I understand that family health issues might not be as easy to work around).


Yes, you are getting the bum of end of the stick right now. Focus on the future, on what is to come once you rebuild this relationship. Remember the honeymoon period? You can have that again and now you'll know how to keep it.

Also, this is a time to think about you and rebuild yourself. You had quite a blow.

I dont know how to do that without soundsing preachy . Not to mention I do love him and as a caring person I can see that he really is dealing with a lot and dont want to add more to his plate. Here is where I am helping myslef by not nagging. 1) That was a behavior he hated so not doing it. 2) Lettign him figure out when/if he wants to make it a priority all on his own will let me know when he actually does it that he did it becuase he wanted to work on us not because "I'll do it cause thats what she wants" or thats the price to pay for me being a wayward.

I read the books in bed, they are lying around us all the time so he knows they are there. I sent him links to this website ( not the boards dierctly ) but he is pretty computer savvy so he can find his way around if he wants to.

Also there mare several factors that compound to the woe is me pity party. A few weeks back ( its now 2 months and 11 days since d day) in one of our early marathon discovery sessions I asked if he had used any protection. Answer no (there was no danger of pregnancy I am aware of that) so WH offered to get STD testing on himself to put the matter at rest. Since then nothing. Finally after mustering enough strenght for myself I made an appt for myself for a gyno visit. Did that on Wed and got scrip to get full std work up on myself. Went yesterday to the lab with H as ne needed to get bloodwwork for a previously regulary scheduled physical. So he got cbc I got STD work up. So he knows I got it, no need for me to preach about it and yet no effort on his part to get it dont for himself or to appease me. Another I/ mending our relationship is low on priority slam in my mind. Not to mention that even thou the Doc said there was no sign of any thing wrong it was embarrasing to go thru the discussion and now I have a 2 week wait before I get results. The rational side of me knows that I did a good thisng for me but the sentimental side of me says all of this is too hard and I am angry for aing to deal with it at all.

I am sure he sees all of these events completely differently from the way I do. He thinks he is doing a lot or more importantly may be he thinks he is doing enough to make this work. If he was a real jeark the decision would be so simple for me. It so complicated by the fact that I dont see him as a jerk and genuinely care for him. He needs help healing from the fog and withdwarl of ehat he lost from the loss of OW and the loss of me being there for him fro all the past years and I dont know how and whether I can hold it together while he heals. And if I do hang in there will the result be the glorious mutual respect and love that you guys all speak of.

So far in this entire decison making process I have only focused on whether on not I care enough to want to be with him. I have not factored the kids and their needs into the equation . I am afraid if I move into that phase it will only cloud my judement on wanting to stay just for their sakes.

You are not adding to his plate. He did that.

You broach it like this...

"Honey, I know there are all these other factors going on now but I would really love it if we could schedule an hour on Saturday morning (before the kids are up) to complete our homework. How would you feel about that?"

That opens it up to him to see that it is important to you and at the same time you are giving him the option to let you know why Saturday morning would not work. If Saturday morning (or whatever is normally a quiet time for you without kids) doesn't work he can offer alternatives as to when.

I'm a procastinator too. Sometimes I need deadlines to help motivate me and sometimes my self imposed deadlines just don't work. I need outside forces. I don't think that makes me a kid, just makes me realize that sometimes I need someone else to hold me accountable otherwise I will wait even longer.


Until his head is cleared he is going to think that he is doing everything possible and you are just impossible to please. Have you talked about boundaries and EP?

And right now he is a jerk. He should have gotten STD testing (and he still NEEDS to get tested). Here again, he'll probably remaining a jerk until the fog clears.

I'm going to put a shout out for some of the vets to come here. I don't know how to offer advice on this. Just know I'm here thinking of you.

{{{wannamoveforward}}}

Thanks Jlr


I'll try that even thou I feel like I will be preaching I'll give it an honest to godness gentle unresentful nudge.


Sorry cant agree with you on that , may be I am in my own fog but I still think he is a "good guy" and no where near being a jerk. I think in this case its still his procastination that is hindering him from doing that. That and his own level of threat in that he does not think that there was anything about OW that makes him think that there were any red flags regarding STDs. I am proud of myself however for getting tested and biting the bullet on that one and braving it out. Now just have to get thru the next 2 weeks of waiting on results. Hopefull it was needless aggravation and part of the pain and suffering of the A.

Wow that makes me think that I must be in real denial because It scares me to think that my issues are sever enough to need help. I know I am here so I must be needing help but its scares me think that this is serious stuff. I wanna go to bed and wake up and all of this be a bad dream.

I do appreciate all your and Sb's help and I keep re reading all the posts and finding tidbits that I missed and that all the stuff you guys say helps whether the reesults are immediately visible or not.

We all want to go to sleep and have this be a bad dream. Sadly it isn't.

And putting out a call for help, is a GOOD thing because it helps us to feel useful and give purpose when our own lives aren't doing what we want.

I have to head out, but will check back later to see if I can add anything. People will help you if you let them. It can be hard at first, but this place has been my life saver. And I am so grateful.

We all need help and one day you can give back to someone else on here who needs help.

Qnl


The giving of help itself I am fine with. The taking of help is what scares me. I dont see my self as some one who needs help or I should say I have not often found myself in a position of asking and taking help. So all of this is very uncomfortable and sad for me.

Its almost like my identity is not who I thought it was. I have always belived that I am astrong person and the realization that I am not is saddening.

At the same time I realize that if I dont work through this and come out whole I will be destroying my life, the life of my 3 kids and to some extent cause pain in life of the man that I love. So I will try to look at it as I am strong enough to know when to get help

I am so glad that these boards help me vent my happiness and sadness and allow me to spare burdening/impacting my 3 young kids and sabotaging my recovery with my hubby.

Oh, I'm sorry. I just meant that some of things you are going through, while I can empathize with you I was on the other side of the fence and that makes me feel that I can't offer you the best that there is out there.

It isn't that your situation is worse than any others, just that I feel inadequate. I ditto Queenies sentiment that calling out for help is a good thing. Actually I ditto everything she said.

RE: Jerk - we can agree to disagree. I think you can still love someone when they are being a jerk so maybe its just a matter of how you term that word and how I term the word. I can have a potty mouth ( ) so I would have used a stronger word if it was something where he was no longer a "good guy."

SB has a lot to offer you. You'll get a wealth of knowledge from SB, Queenie and others (even if it is just from reading their threads).

You are a STRONG person...don't ever doubt that.

Trying to keep that still true , I guess if I make it thru this ordeal then I will never have to doubt that ever again. I may have a lot of flaws (only a few that I am willing to admit ) but if I survive this and still come out whole I know that took strength to do.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna focus on the things that I can take care of. I need to write down for my self what it is that my H could do in order to meet my needs. When ever he is ready to meet them it would be simpler if I have a clear working knowledge of how he can meet my top 5 needs. Jennifers suggestion was to amke a sort of
I love when you or I would love it if you would ...
so I am going to spend some time tonight on that. I have a babysitter scheduled for 6 pm tonight so she can take the kids somewhere fun while I can cry my eyes out and make this soul searching list.
It will be kinda eye opening for me cause rioght now all I see is the emptiness of my needs not being met. This list should give me an idea of what I think will make me happy. and when ever I am able to share it with H it will be a clear and unambigious information of what I need so no trying to "read" my mind.

May be my H is trying to fill my needs in ways that he knows best or thinks that will help, no different from what I did all of those years when he compained feeling unloved by me. This might be a clear road map for him and I so he is not topping my car with windsheild washer fluid and expecting me to be overfilled with his thoughfulness and caring. ( even though we all know how terribel it can be to drive in the rain without winshield washer fluid.)

...I would love it if...sound familiar to what I wrote previously? Can you guess where I stole it from? I can tell you that using this termiology and giving my H the option of telling me how he would feel about something really changed our dynamics.


EXACTLY...we are all guilty of trying to filling our EN when dealing with our spouse.

And a good cry is sometimes just what we need to feel better.


Your secret is safe with me.

Coudnt wait till the evening so I been working on the list. Pretty depressing if you ask me. To many needs and the list is starting to look like a nag even to me. You need to show more affection, you need to have more conversations with me, you need to be honest and open with me blah blah blah... I am tiring myself out.

I think I need to stop dealing with this for the day and may be work on the list when I am not so emotionally wrought with this ordeal.

Its not that easy to put it aside and move on with daily tasks. I have set up a babysitter for tonight which is pretty rare thing for us. Going to be less rare going forward but very rare until D day. H has is super busy at priority #1 (WORK) all day so I am not even sure he will be here while the babysiter is availbe to entertain the kids.(Have not had a chance to tell him that I set it up) and I think it will end up being me and my thoughts alone this evening for 3 hours .

I need the 3 hours of relaxing but I cant visulaze them being happy. I was really hoping that H would come home and kids would be gone and it would be a great oppurtunity to get him caught up on my current frame of mind.
Then again its better that he is spared this temporary insanity (assuming its temporary) and that our talk will happen when I am less un-happy . May be just may be he will make it home at a reasonable hour, once again setting up a glimmer of hope that he isreally intersted in seeing this work.

OK, a couple things here.

Your EN list won't be too long. Remember your need is very general (such as affection, open & honest (O&H), conversation, etc.). Have you read HNHN (His Needs, Her Needs)? I think this book covers EN's better than SAA. Your EN are 5, maybe 6...but if you get 6 EN then your H gets 6 needs.

How those needs can be filled is a longer list. On the fulfilling of those needs you can implement Jennifer's tactic of "I would love it if...". What you fill it in with are specifics of how your H can best meet this need.

EXAMPLE: Affection..."I would really love it if you could hold my hand while we are out walking with the kids."

This let's your H know what he can do that fills your EN.


You need breaks from working thru the A. Think about what you did before that would make you happy. Pick up a book, rent a good movie, go for a walk...you get the idea. Make sure you still have fun and make sure you have fun with your H.


Being O&H works both ways girl. You have to let him know. Right now you are setting him to fail tonight. He can't be there for you if you haven't let him know that you need him.

Yes, your H should know these things, that coming home at a decent time after work should be his top priority. He is in the habit of doing what HE wants. The Harley's talk about creating new habits...right now he doesn't know this is a habit (of working late) that needs to change.

Can you call your H and ask him if he can come home for a little date night with you? No talk of the A tonight. Just enjoy yourselves...how did you enjoy your time together before kids?

Are you getting 15 hours a week together alone? No talk of A during this time.

I think your list would be more effective if you stepped back and visualized what an ideal marriage would be like for you. Make it about YOU, not him. No 'I need YOU to..." but instead "I would like my partner to give me a foot rub once a week because of my plantar fasciitis and sore feet." That way, you're not nagging at him, you're being open and honest about what would make YOU happy. Then he can decide if that's something he can do for you.

How did the night go for you?

Well I kind of ending up with plan ( without having read ur post yet) Called H and told him that I had babysitter in place and that we would have 3 un-interrupted hours. He siad he would try to bug out of work in the next 5 minutes and head home. Made me smile a little and feel more positive.
I guess I was falling into the trap of being my "female" self and expecting him to read my mind an dcome homw cause thats waht I was thinking, it was so much better when I knew he wanted to do it cause it was clear that thats waht i wanted instead of him havign to be a mind reader.

Ofcaouse I thought we would have a nice relaxing evening with no A talk, but if you see my posts for the last few days you can tell something was brewing and there was definately lots on my mind that I had not comuunicated with H for athe ast 10 days or so. So it was not a R&R session that i imagined. but instead turned into a marathon talk fest lasting until 2 am when we were both spent. Would I have liked 3 hours of reast and happiness yes. Am I glad that we talked for so many hours absolutely.
It was not the mosth heliest disussion ever lost sof anger, resentemts ans LBs but at the same time lots of brutal honesty.
To today we are both licking our wounds, having cleared the air on alot of isssues with each of us and back on track to preparing for Jennifers next seesion with us Tuesday night.

As a follow up on the marathon session couple of things I learned
1) Its infinatley better to speak and communicate what you are thiking ( even if what you ahve to say might hurt the other person) than to make the other person fell shut out of your mind and let anger and resentment fester.
2) My H really really wants to be here and I have to give myself a chance to accepta nd belive that he is here cause he wants me and I am not his by default choice or choice cause he really cant choose OW.
3) I do a poorjob of communicating to my H what i really want from him because I dont want to live with teh guilt of him having to do anythgin for me. Which in on iteslt is setting me up for faliaure. So I need to "speak: to him with works what I need and then give him a chance to fulfil it if he so desires.

So short version back on track today, awaiting tomorrow

Sounds like a positive night, despite how it might have gone down. I'll check back later. I've had a family emergency that I'm trying to work out so short on time.

Hang in there.

Awesome! The one thing I always tell everyone...communication is king. It trumps everything. I wish I could do it as well as you have!

wmf,

There is a balance to this recovery process.

The marathon talks have advantages and disadvantages. They do clear the air, but if they happen too often, they end up just wearing everyone out. Don't let them become a habit, because he will end up avoiding alone time with you, for fear that the alone time will become a marathon relationship talk. You need to be sure that those talks are limited in nature and focus, and that you let things lie after a time. The two of you need to agree on some rules for the talks, or you will find yourselves worn thin and frazzled.

And he will soon stop responding - because they will be fruitless and endless. You will find yourself feeling frustrated and crazed.




The idea that he needs time to get over the OW is true. However, that doesn't mean you allow him to simply pine over her, either. The reality is that he has chosen you, and has chosen the marriage. It isn't a free pass to sit and fantasize over "love lost". That relationship was wrong, and not real love. His withdrawal time needs to include consequences - which means that he does need to see your pain. If he does not realize the pain he caused, and has no real consequences - then the Plan A you have done becomes you being a doormat. The perfect setup for you building resentment.

There is a carrot and a stick to Plan A.

I believe he is basically a good guy, or you would not be attempting to recover the marriage.

But if you don't allow him to pay the consequences, and basically step back so he can wallow in "his pain over the OW", then you are not understanding that he doesn't, and shouldn't, be allowed that luxury. You shouldn't be afraid to speak your mind. That doesn't mean you have to lovebust, or punish him. But you CAN factually state things, and you CAN go about recovering the marriage with the consequences falling where they may.

It is what it is, and he has a price to pay. Part of that is the simple fact that he cannot avoid seeing the pain he has cause you and the family, and he cannot avoid knowing that the OW is NOT THE GREATEST THING THAT EVER ENTERED HIS LIFE.

Reality bites. You are in his life, and while he is in withdrawal, you DO NOT NEED TO CATER TO HIS WITHDRAWAL PAIN. You do want to focus on your positive self improvements, making yourself look good, meeting his marital needs, etc.

But don't you DARE enter the "poor little WH, you lost the love of your life" pity party.

Because that OW was NOT the love of his life, and what he had with her was NOT LOVE. Do not for one second believe that it was.

It was, always was, a FANTASY.

A FANTASY. It was disneyland - a dream - NOT REAL. It could never have been real.

Because once the light of day was shined on it

IT DIED.

Crap like that melts in the light, wmf.

There's a reason for it.

IT IS NOT LOVE.


Do not forget that.


That's why he is at home, with you. He knows where he belongs.


Where the love is real.


So do not feed that pity party. When he is pining for her, do your damndest to remind him to look at the prize you ARE. Don't help him feel sorry for himself.

Remind him of why he came home - because of the REAL love right there.

And hit him HARD with the stick.


SB

Thanks Schoolbus

You always seem to know the right thing to say to snap me out of it. That is exactly what I was doing and more so by compounding the issue by making it reduce my own slef worth and increase my pain because I did not measure up ( in my own self imposed scale).


I agree with you on wearing us thin and frazzeled but we had not have a marathon seesion for about 3 weeks and I will make sure we dont have one for alteast another 2-3 weeks if one is needed at all. In fact there are 2 positive plans in place. We were completely and utterly exhaused all day Sat and actually had to take naps in the day in order to survive the day.

1) this weekend Fr-Sun we are doing on a family outing. H has a hobby that he loves to pursue in the summer and we as a family will join him, we have a hotel with a pool so we will drive there about an hour from home and spend 3 days where he does what gives him joy and we (kids and I) are there for him while we spend the rest of the time relaxing and having summer fun. Its not my thing so I dont particpate directly but I know he appreciates me being there to support him and share his expernce with me.

2) The next week my sis will keep the kids and for the 1st time in a long long long time we will be taking a kid free 5 day break. Its my birthday gift to him and we are making no plans other than to agree to make no plans. We get in the car and like old times (pre kids) set off to unknown drivable destinations and find places to stay and just explore and be. So looking forward to that coming up on the next week Friday. Kids get a vcation from us and we get alone time ( Yipeeeee)


The good part of the marathon session was that H tried his darnest to try to convince me that he loved me. I conveyed to him that I felt unloved and low on his list of priorities. Also he made some attemps at signalling to me that he realises that what he had was fantasy and that it would not survive the light of day. My one cause for sadness was that he had to actally think about choosing between me and her. I know it only took him a day to decide and so I am in a far better situation that other posters here, nevertheless I am not sure that the pain is any less of feeling as may be I am not the 1st choice.

H tried to convince me that in mind time the decision was not so much between me and her but more on whether he though that things could change between us or not. He felt so unloved and un cared for by me that he was not sure that things could be better. So I have to accept that and let it heal my wound of thinking he is here for reasons other than simply wanting me. I have to accept that my old behaviour would not have made him ( or many other mates) want me and that my new and awake self ( the real me) is great and he does want it. I know I am saying the words but I have a long way to go towards getting there.

Thanks catperson
I am not sure I did in the best manner but I am gald it was done. Part of the communication feedback I got from H is that even thought some times I communicate to him what I want when I am feeling better I tend to give him messags that say "oh honey you dont need to do that any more I feel better about it". so he takes that to mean that it is no longer an issue for me and he does not need to do anything about it. Meanwhile the "female me" is brewing and brooding and angry that he has not done it so my logical side says it myust be because I am not loved by him or that I am low on his priority list. He does not care about me enough to do it reinforcing my sadness and perception of my unloving relationship .

I some what agree with his assement that I tend to say things that might lead him to think that I dont need himt to do it but I thought about why I do that and I think its because I dont want to add to his plate. I love him so I dont want him to have to "work" at making me happy so momentarily I might feel guilt that he has to do something for me but I need to to Get over it. Obvioulsy in the end the overriding feeling for me is anger and resetmnet that he did not do it, not guilt that I made him do it.

So from now one, checking my self everytime I say " I would love it if you would --------" and making sure that it is at no point in subsequent days or weeks followed up by " oh dont worry about it, its too much work for you, just you willing to do it is enough" so I am not sabotaging my own happiness and that excuse or cause for my unhappiness does not exist.

Honey, I am Queen of this thinking. I do everything so that I don't have to make H do anything for me. And it has backfired in 30 years of his learned entitlement. He never answers the phone. He never answers the door. He never puts his plates in the sink, let alone the dishwasher. I never do what I want if it's going to interfere with what HE wants. Horrible way to live! Just last night, after spending a whole day working on the car he's rebuilding for our D17, my feet were so sore (I have plantar fasciitis) I could barely stand up. And it took me 30 minutes to get up the courage to ask him to rub my feet. He did, but he's spent 30 years NOT rubbing my feet, so that he was a little put out that I would ask him - direct result of me not wanting to add to his plate. See how it accumulates?

SB

I re read your post and it occured to me that I am the one that this needs to sink in to. The more I think about it the more I think it is likely that he kinda already is on the way to believing that. I am the one who is having a hard time letting the betrayal allow me the pleasure of trusting myself and the desire for me in his eyes. Its not that I have no self worth or dont feel desirable, I just question his desire for me and I think as time passes and he is still here and happy about being here it may finally sink in to me . In th meantime I am the one who needs to be reminded "of why he came home - because of the REAL love right there."

Now that you realize this you can create a new style of asking for what you need from your H. It's just plain silly to feel guilty having your H do anything for you. He LOVES YOU and wants to know what he can do make you feel good.

Mind readers - haven't met one yet.


And never again will it be a long, long, long time of taking a kid free vacation together. Maybe you should underline that little section of SAA...vacation time alone, every year. Doesn't sound like a bad thing from anyone's stand point. Enjoy each other.


There is no decision here. YOU are his WIFE.

YOU are the one he LOVES.

There is no comparision between you and the OW. She is nothing.

You are EVERYTHING.

Thanks Jlr
your post is very encouraging and positive. Its like a mantra I have to keep repeating to myself. There is no decision, he chooses to be here because I can make him happy and I will.he will do the same for me and In return we will be happy together.

And also remember that this is also your choice.

To recover you marriage.

To build a better marriage.

To have the marriage filled with LOVE and JOY.

How have you been feeling after the strain of Friday night?

Queen sounds good no matter how the title is obtained LOL. Its kinda sad that women tend to do this to themselves. I guess we really are from a different planet than men ! I really have to focus on learning to allow H to do things and not assume all the responsibility in this relationship.

I am doing good now that the exhaustion from the marathon session is almost faded away. We have a session with Jennifer scheduled for tomorrow. I am hoping that it will go better for me than the 1st one. I did not see the benefits that I had envisioned in the 1st one. I think I expected too much. So I am going to spend some time between now and then trying to figure out what my issues are that I thnk MC can help with and see how I can get better results from my phone call tomorrow.

Also H has been making genuine attempts at brutal honestly and taking care of what I think will help me . One of the issues I was brewing was the way NC was established. Once he decided that he was going to work on this with me, he made a long ( 1hr apprx) phone call to let OW know his decision. She was expecting him to start a new life with him and had become quite invested in it ( she is single ) and was expecting him to be there for her and meet his needs. I was not present during the phone call but was aware that it took place.

Until few weeks ago I thought that was it. Recently H confeesed to me that it was followed up with a somewhat angry / hurt email from OW the next day saying that she felt hurt that he did not give her enough time nor explanation of why she was being rejected in favor of me. She expressed that he was now betraying her and not only hurt me but has now hurt her. But nevertheless she wanted him to be happy so she wished him well inspite of her pain and that she was always worried that she was in danger of being left hearbroken. In response H wrote and mailed her a letter 2 -3 days later( she lives overseas) saying thet he is sorry did not mean to hurt her . He needs to sort things out with himself and us before he can commit to being in a realtionship me or otherwise and that he is sorry for having put her thru this.

After he told me all this, I felt even more unsecure reagrding the NC situation based on what I have read and how it needed to be done. Also I now realize that I thought NC was 2 days after D day but then I become aware that it really took another week to take effect. How ever I was not privy to having read the email nor the letter in response( it was typed and then postal mailed.
I had expressed to H several weeks back when he revealed this to me that I would be intersted in seeing both of those. He was relucant to open up doors he thought were shut but it continued to re-inforce to me that he chose to protect and priortize her over me. He did not want to give me any info about her ( name adddres etc. not that I specifically asked) He refereedto her as this person. I had enever seend any other communctaion nor asked to see any. Most of it was phone but there were some emails.

I think Fridays discussion brought this issue up as another example of how I feel like I am on a low priority with him and he tried to convince me that it was not so but I think I needed action and not words.
So today
I get both a copy of the email and a copy of the letter forwarded to me. Hard to get thru reading and accepting but huge relief for me. Here how him sending me the letters helped
1) He showed me that he cares enough to do what I need
2) Knowing the content of the letter allows me to stop imagaing all the stuff that is only my fantasy and deal with only what was really said.
3) Gives me a better insight into what he was really feeling wand what his honest thoughts were as he had no fear that it would be read by me.
4) The content of both let me know that the NC is really in effect and there are no immediate plans on either end to re-open contact so I no longer feel the need to re-do the NC . This is a huge benefit as it goes a small way towards re-estabilishing trust. ( I'd like to add for the benefit of any body reading Trusting but keeping eyes open )

And what I am feeling right now is that I can deal with it what ever the path is. I know this is probably a temporary high since I have so many lows along the way but the way I see it any positive sign is a positive sign. So I plan of writing H a note to expess my Thanks to him for sending me both of those as I know it was hard for him to have to re-vist his own wounds in order to care for mine.

I recall you asking for the magic pill but there is none. What I want to remind you is that from that one session your H's eyes were opened to some things (at least I think I recall reading that from your post).

One or two sessions is not going to fix everything. This is going to be a long, hard process. And as you can imagine you are going to have high's and low's. Your H is going to have high's and low's. I'm not saying you'll need tons of sessions, just keep in mind that it won't just be all OK after talking with Jennifer.


I'm glad that your H took this action.

I don't want to put any thoughts in your head, but are you able to have access to his email where you can indepedently check to ensure NC is indeed in place. Not that I am implying NC was or will be broken, just as a venue for you to "trust but verify".

There will be days when you will be shaky. Those are days you can "trust but verify" and feel more confidence to see NC is still intact.

I know some here have advocated a key logger...then you would know if he has a secret account.

The same "trust but verify" is true for his phone. You should be able to check the call log (easy enough to do via the internet) at any time.


And you will.

You have so much STRENGTH.


Sounds like a wonderful idea. I'm guessing your H likes words of affirmation and this is a great way for you to deposit some love units.

I was originally expecting a magic pill. Then I was expecting her to lift and clear his fog immediately. Neither of which happened at the end of call 1. I realise the time aspect but as long as I see progress in every session then I'll keep going. I actually gets tons of helpful advise and inspiration from reading helpful posts from you and SB and I think if I can communicate effectively with H then the progress continues. So far we are on the track of brutal honestly. If we can do that without killing each other along the way that will be nice.
I think what is dawning on me is what jennufer said early on in the call, she is a coach not a counseller so I have to see the phone calls as an oppurtunity to learn a new skill. when I hang up with phone from MC no results will be there cause I/WE have not applied any of our newly learned skills ( assuming she can get anythign thru our thick heads LOL). So progress should come during the week after the call and thats how I need to gauge it. So I am better prepared for that shift in process this week.


Good point and I am neither afraid/nor offended by your suggestion that NC was/will/can be broken. We are both fairly computer Savvy so no amount of computer detecting on either part can help becuase we both know and can work our way around "computer stuff". I do have those thoughts in my head ( sometimes) but I can check his emails if I want and I also know that he may use email's un checable by me and so it defeats the purpose of scanning what is not hidden.
Here is what I do know and I write this it occurs to me that I should "speak" this to my H as well. I am commited to our relationship together if he is soley commited to me. If his own explanation in his own head for having the A was that I did not fill his needs and made him feel unloved and uncared for , I sure am doing my darnest to rectify that. I do a stauts check with him on how he feels my actions are towards him, is there anything I can do better or more of and constantly lookign for feedback. From what I gather he seems to be happy currently . I havenot and cannot taken his past pain of neglect for a long time away, but we were able to identify the cause. It was something that happned to be prior to meeting him that kept me unhappy and ashamed for a long time . But I think I am now released the guilt of that so I no longer need to be miserable nor do I need to suck the joy out of everyone around me.So I am slowly but surely replacing old pain with more recent memeory and love and joy. That being said if in the current frame of my giving in this realtionship (foggy brain or not) he still needs to fill ANY other needs that he has not communicated to me and continues contact with OW or anyone else for that matter guess what!
He needs to leave my reality and proceed with his fantasy of what his reality can be and I will be in plan B for 1 or 2 days just to rethink my position so as to not be in plan D on day 1.
But certainly no Plan A and if my predition is accurate on my own behaviour barely any plan B.
No anger ( well a small amount) but mostly just rational the side of me going dont waste my life and time fixing something I cant fix at the cost of my life. That is when I will factor in the kids and see how long plan B needs to be for their sakes.

Maybe one of the items for discussion with Jennifer, or others here that can help, is how to be open & honest without it feeling brutal. I realize that talk of the A will never be painless but there should be ways to mitigate feeling wiped out afterwards.

My guess is, and it is purely a guess, these brutally honest discussions have love busters (LB) coming from both sides.

And just to reiterate what SB told you...talk of the A should be minimized. No long, drawn out sessions. Some will schedule a 30 minute talk and when the times up, the times up. Then its time to do something fun together...this helps keep the love bank from draining.



That is EXACTLY right.

A MC or IC can be beneficial in helping you with the feelings.

Jennifer is helping you with the actions.



OK, I just want to make sure that you are not taking and he is not placing blame on you for HIS A.

As far as how you feel about your history. Is this something you have dealt with so you are no longer unhappy or are you in fix-it mode (meaning I'm fixing everything right now so I just fixed this)?


I see nothing wrong with anger. The problem arises on how we display anger (without respect).

From your posts yesterday and this morning...are you seeing glimps of your H and not his foggy twin?

It sounds like you and your H are heading in the right direction.

Well that is a tricky one. I think the fact is that I was not meeting his emotinal need for being a caring compassionate human being. I had an emotional wound in me ( not caused by him) which un-known to me was festering . I had assumed since so much time had passed ( happened in 91) that I was over it. How ever 3-4 days after D-day during a casual conversation about emotions etc I began to speak in deatil a to H about what this person had done to me and all the repressed feelings of being ashamed of the abuse came surfacing up. H knew kinda what had happened but not details. Having spoken all the details aloud ( never told any one but H ) allowed me to accept what had happened and relase any blame for what I was holding my self. I was barely at the end of my teens, a young girl starting out all alone in a new country ( I had just moved here). As is common in most cases like mine I blamed myself for being used in that manner. Mostly I blamed my self for being "stupid " or "not strong" for falling for some ones manipluation. Re-living the past allwed me finally 17 years later to accept that I was COMPLETEY BLAMELESS for what happened to me . After this discussion the next morning I woke up and I was a new person and have been ever since. I have no desire to live in misery nor am I unhappy at the happiness of any one around me. I do for feel guilt for needing things and not for feel guilty for pursuing pleasure. I think in the past when I was in my "broken" phase I had difficulty receiving joy beacuse I felt I was undeserrving of it. And since I did not allow myself to be happy I resented it when H was and it manifested itself in me being a negative, always a task master, complaining , sucking the joy out of life individual.

So H having had to endure the manifestaion of that is my fault in the relationship. It was never Ok for him to have down time because things had to be done, no time to just lay back and smell the roses. Always had to entertain, have people around, party be overly social so as to have my surroundings filled with noise, whihch H disliked. He loves peaceful weekends with no commitments so as to relax with family but in my mind that was a complete waste of time. Either I set up tons of tasks that HAD TO BE DONE or there were always events to clean , shop and plan and work for. No resting peacfull quite time.

So when he says to me that he thought that I did not love him because I showed more anger than care towards him and that it would never change beacuse it was too hard to change some ones behaviour, I belive he truly belived that and was at his ropes end.

Does that give him permission to have an A no, but it did give him permission to be unhappy and ask for a D (which he did not) absolutely!. I have mentioned to him several times that that would have been a better approach for him than an A and I think (I hope) he sees that. So I do hold my self responsible for making him unhappy enough to not want me. I do not hold my self responsible for him having achieved that by betraying our marriage and causing new havoc in ou already strained relationship by adding the pain of the A.

I am afraid to say this aloud but in the interest of Brutal honesty here it is. I think the pain of this Affair allowed everthing to churn inside me so much that all the dark burried emotions in me came rising and I was able to set them free. So the pain of the A acted as a catalyst in bettering my own life and for that I am thankful. Do I think that I would have ever healed probably yes, but It would have taken a lot of years and endless money in therpy to get to where the on discussion with H 3-4 days after D day got me.

So in answer to your question a resounding YES, I do belive that I am healed from my history and not in patchwork bandaid mode for it.

Good. I just wanted to make sure you weren't blaming or accepting blame for the A and that you are doing what you need to heal from past abuse.




Sounds a bit like me...I use to have a "to do" list for the weekend that there was no way a person could complete the list in two weeks. (I might have a little too much "Type A" personality in me. My hubby more a "Type B". Normally we can even each other out...and then there are the other time. )

I have come to appreciate down time. That it can most certaintly energize you. Are you there yet? Ready to enjoy the quiet times too. I will admit that it was STRESSFUL for me at first and there are definately times where I say, enough of all this, there are things to do.

If you don't mind, where are you originally from if you moved here (& and I guess I assume 'here' is the USA) in your late teens?

The thought has crossed my mind that h may be De-fogging but I am afraid to say that. Beacuse my feelings and the situtation changes every day. since friday nights huge discussion things have changed. But honestly Thursday night I was contemplating moving into plan B. I know there is NC already and the goal of plan B is to kinda ensure that WS decides where they want to be but in my case the goal of plan B was to see if I really mattered. Would it change H's perspctive on my role and what I actually do bring into this marriage.
Thursday I was trying to figure out how detrimental to our recovery ( and the kids) it would be for me to remove my self from filling any of H's needs so he can see for himself ( and may be I can too) how much I do contribute to the relationship.

I was also having hugs issues with measuring up and the fantasizing that I was never going to match up to his perception of the perfection of happiness in the A. Since in our case the A was short lived but intesified to a commitment to move from one relationship to another pretty quickly, but had to be terminated abruptly , complicated by the fact that the OW is in another country I had no way out of breaking the bubble of the fantasy of this perfect A. I always imagined H and OW in this magical place and now him being here with me meant that he was giving up "nirvana". I envisioned him pining for what he lost for the rest of his life and that his goodbye phone call and letter pretty much said " I will always love you , sorry in another life I could have been with you, but in this life I am stuck with having given my word to my current wife so I cant do as I really want. So we great souls will have to sacrifice our great love so I keep my commitment to my vows and my kids."

So may be the idea of implementing plan B was some what for me and somewhat to help him de-fog. Monday since I got the actual letter that was sent and I can see what was actually said, it is way so much easier to deal with the reality of his mind frame than for me to have imagined all of those things. The contents of the letter hurt but again re-inforced what I have been saying all along, DH ( yes I know I added a D) is bascially a good guy. The good bye was much cleaner than I anticipated, more final and clear in the termination than I fantasised. It said that WE ( him and I) may or may not work out but while he included her in the mix there was no chance for it. So regardless of our outcome he was bidding her good bye with no future hope or promise for further contact and he wishes well for her. Aplogised for causing her pain by draggin her into a situation that he should have handeled better ( starting the A an how he abruplty ended the A). Now I know its not by the book NC letter but its also not the letter I imagined in my head a paragraph ago.

But when I think of De-fogged WS based on the posts I read here they seem to be at the point where the WS realises that what they did should not be blamed on BS. Realises that OP is not innocent bystander that they need to apologize to. Realise the extent of pain that they caused BS. Realise the weaknees there exists within the WS to re-establish contact and how detremental that is towards recovery and that they need to protect themselves from that occurance at all costs.
I dont know if I am right in the milestones I am looking for but if these are the correct milestones (please correct me if I am wrong) then I dont think we are there yet. I am on a positive note since Monday and so thats 2 days of +.
Any ideas on if there is anything I can do to help Defog or do I just have to be patient and wiat for the fog to lift.

Schoolbus
I know you wrothe this a few days back and I wanted you to know that it is finally sinking in to me. What he had with OW was not love, but a pure fantasy that could not and will not survive the light of day .

Seems like progress for my own healing. Accepting that makes me feel lighter and makes the battle less harder to fight.
So Thanks for sowing that seed in my head and I belive that it is finally blossming

Just wanted you to know that I was thinking about you. Swamped at work for the remainder of the week. I'll check in at night.

Keep the positive energy...and laugh/smile, it really is amazing how doing that can change your outlook.

I think that is an excellent question for Jennifer. I haven't really read about this.

I will say that there are some good posts on reverse babble - basic concept is to deflect from the crazy things that a WS says until the fog lifts. I'll do a quick search for the thread I'm thinking of and bump it up for you.

I don't know if this is the case for all WS but I know that a few hard hitting reality checks cleared it right up for me.

Have you told you DH about MB? There are several couples that post here and it seems to really aid in the recovery process. It seems that H and W don't really get involved in the other ones thread until the marriage is on its way to recovery. Just a warning to you, if your DH posts here, he will get plenty of 2x4's from others...this does help lift the fog too (reality check time).

The search function isn't working for me...getting an error message. I'll try again tomorrow.

Jlr

Yes I did send a link to Dh (thanks for using that ) 2 days after D-day when I started reading on this site . Since then I have resent it a couple of times and he has used it to print questioners read basic concepts etc. not sure if he has scanned the message boards and I have purpously not sent him a direct link to the boards, so that I did not have to worry about hurting him with what I am typing. As things have progressed I am less and less afraid of him being hurt by it 1) becuase these are my feelings, my view of our stich right or wrong 2) its really helped me stand when I felt I was falling and it continues to help by allowing me o educate myself by reading all the good insite you vets provide.
Like I said he is pretty computer savvy so its not unlikely that he has been scanning this thread all along,( I highly doubt it) obviously it woudnt be hard for him to figure out our own story.

Not sure I want him to be hit by 2x4's LOL , I want the fog to lift but I also dont want him beat up in the process. I think I am preachy enough about my own recovery so I have to step back and let him find his own oath to recovery and healing from his emotions of guilt and pain.
I know he is quite tormented by the pain this whole A has caused me. There were days early on where I cried non stop for days. There was so much physical pain for a few days that I could not un-curl from the fetal position. I know he feels really really bad when he sees how much pain I am in. I think since Monday he really has been paying attention to what my issues with the relaionship are and how he can help work on them.
He worked on the ENQ and the session with Jennifer gave us guidelines on how to share itwith each other. So the plan is to do that early next week. Hoping that sets us on a track to (dare I say) recovery.

Wow, a very slow day overall on the discussion boards.


Oh, you don't have to worry about the 2x4's hurting (LOL)...if in a fog your DH won't even realize that's whats happening. He would just think everyone else here was crazy.
If he got a 2x4 and he was out of the fog he would realize it was deserved...meaning that he might have been starting to talk a little foggy again. People here are savy enough to realize when a 2x4 is needed and when its not.

And as far as I know, there have been no busted knee caps.


While this might cause you discomfort, knowing that it torments him, it is a great sign. It shows remorse and key to recovery. An excellent sign.

How was the session with Jennifer this time around? Did she provide you and/or your DH with some useful information?

I'm glad to hear that the positive vibes from the weekend are sticking around...and soon you'll be off for a fun weekend with the kids.

And then a fun weekend WITHOUT the kids.

wmf,

Things will begin to get better and the fog begins to lift as time passes and you do certain activities.

First, if you are meeting his ENs, then that helps. Next, as time does pass, his withdrawals from OW takes place, and he will naturally begin to see what he cannot see during the affair and shortly afterwards - that he does have a good relationship with you and that his investment in that relationship is really what makes things work. So, while you are investing in his ENs, you are somewhat teaching him about this concept and he is seeing some payoff in that regard. Once some time passes, he will begin to see this and start being more motivated to meet yours. It is a natural process.

His guilt is a good sign, as jlr said - this means he is starting to see that you were, are, and will be invested in the marriage. He will begin to see your meeting his ENs now, and then start looking back and the marriage with more realistic eyes and see that you did indeed meet them before, too. You have to know that he has rewritten the marital history to some degree in order to justify his affair - he has told himself that you didn't meet this need or that need, and so he was justified in his affair. That justification will come down and the guilt is a sign that it is coming down.

Once he starts giving to you more, you will start feeling better about the future. I'm not telling you that you will feel great - but you will feel better. You will start to see that this concept of meeting ENs can work, and then you will be able to focus on how to talk to one another better. I have a thread somewhere on bodylanguage, memory and other stuff, and I can't get the search feature to work. But if you search my username you should be able to find it somewhere. I will try to bump it for you. In the thread you'll find tips on how to have relationship talks without the marathon sessions - and this is very important for you two.

Marathons can just kill progress.


I think you will see progress with the coaching, and I already see your posts as calmer and progressing!

SB

I managed to find the thread and bumped it for you!

SB

Thanks SB I missed hearing your advise, I figured you had too many desperate people to rescue so the fact that I had not heard from you in a few days was difficult but at the same time promising in that I could survive and manage without the constant input.

I think I am seeing signs that we may be on the bend here and things could take a turn for the less bumpy.


I do feel better when I see him take the time and effort to meet my needs but the better is short lived. Living on hope alone can be tough some days and I guess thats where the whole concept of sustaning a romantic relationship comes in.
I think when I am doing fine all is well, when I regress either due to triggers or whatever it becomes harder for my H to meet my needs . Sometimes I feel I am more of the stick than the carrot so I have to keep chanting to myself" be the carrot, be the carrot" because in the long run I think that will help me more than the stick.

This past weekend we went away with H ( kids and all) so support H's hobby (racing). It was nice to get away from home and not take to cook or clean. I was looking forward to a relaxing fun outing and Bam! out of no where here comes pain. When we pulled up to check in to the hotel I could not breathe. The visions of him and her checking in to a hotel ( she came here to visit him for 5 days) came flooding into my eyes and tears came running done. H checked in and we went dierctly to dinner ( as planned) and all thru dinner I could not contain myself. I was not sure I could walk into the hotel wven though the kids were with us and be in the same room with him.
Now him seeing my pain you can call that a stick or what ever, but I am mad at myself for not having anticipated that because it kinda ruined the plan for the weekend to be "A" free. So I feel like I failed my mission to put that to the side just for one weekeend. Anyways I got past it and it worked out Ok later but the trigger was pretty strong and it made H have to console me and be sad for me. The old me would have thought yeah attention from H great. The new me thinks not so good as now here is another thing he has to hold my hand thru and pretty soon the stick beatings will outweigh any carrots that I am offering in this reduced state of giving. So the rest of the weekend I tried to be positive and ther efor H so he cvould enjoy the outing which I think worked out OK and he seems pretty happy overall.
This coming weekend we are going away -kids so I am glad that I am more aware of this trigger and will try to deal with it better, the problem is I dont know what else can creep up and take away from the simple joy that I would like to have from just spending time with DH without the memories and pain of A.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with letting him see you hurt. Hurt is not accusatory - unless he does it to himself, which IMO is a good thing! It's just honesty.

Catperson ,

Part of me whats to agree with you in that its not a bad thing because when he saw mw hurting at dinner, I was apologizing for runing the weekend atmosphere and his response to me was that He caused the pain to me so no need for me to apalogize.
So in a way its good, however my concern is if there is a lot of "me hurting" in front of him then thats the overwehelming thought he will think of when he thinks of me and wont want to be near it all the time. The truth is there is a lot of " me hurting" and sometimes I know to expcet it and other times like this where it blindsighted me and I have to learn to balance the hurting and still creating "happiness" when we are together.

Then turn those times into something productive. Ask him to tell you one truth he has never shared. Then you do the same. Use it to get closer to each other, not to blame yourselves or each other.

Thats the skill I need to learn. How to turn around quickly from the triggers and convert the bad and hurtful times into smiles.

wmf,

You need to know that the triggers will become "known" to both of you.

The fact that he knows that HE caused the pain is very good. It means he is coming out of the fog! That is very much in your favor, and he is beginning to understand what it is he has done.

It will not kill him to see your pain. You are right to want to be able to have control of the emotions and not use the trigger events to manipulate him - but when they happen, they happen. Real emotions are okay. If you find yourself using or faking emotions to keep him, or make him cling to you, then you would be in trouble. This was not the case, so you are fine.

The good news is that you worked through a trigger event. What happens is that the next time it will be easier to check into a hotel, and the time after that a little easier, etc. At some point, you might want to make it a purposeful point to "reclaim" hotels as YOURS. In other words, when you face a triggering place or event, make it yours by revisiting it on purpose and creating a new memory there to replace the trigger. You see, places and objects have NO MEMORY - you do. So you can "reclaim" those places by creating new memories there of your own. You did that - you checked into a hotel with your kids and spent a weekend there - so hotels are YOURS again.

The next time you go, you create another new memory on top of that, and erode the OW memory of hotels. Hotels become yours again. Erase her.

That's how I handled triggers. FWIW, I still have a small trigger of a road here in town - she lives on that road. So I make a point to drive it when I can. I see here there now and then, but I drive it on purpose to make it "normal".

SB

The hard part is in allowing only the real emotions to surface and then leave. When you are in the emotion and are getting the attention and remorse you need from WS its hard to see where you have stepped over the line from real emotion to manipulation. Since the hotel thing blindsighted me I made a concious effort to "be the carrot" the rest of the weekend, but I was very upset at myself for not having anticipated it and allowing it to take over me the way it did.

On D-day I thought well, if only WH felt remorse and sorry for what he had done, it would take away all the pain he had caused. Now that I occasionally see that he shows some attention and remorse for the pain he sees in me, nice as that attention feels it really is not the magic bullet to fix it all.

There really is no magic bullet, its a long hard road and I have to help myself more than expect him to help me. Its nice to get the shoulder to cry on from him but the more I travel this road the more I see/realize that using his shoulder even if he offers it really works to my disadvantage. In the long run I need him to see me as the strong independent fun loving adventerous individual that I am and I need to stay away from my own weakness of clingyness and dwelling on pain and blink, wipe my tears and move on.



If this is what de-fogging is all about then I am thankful that he is getting there. Its been 2 months and 3 weeks since D day and I really never thought that I would make it this far. On our D-day marathon session we both argeed to re-evaluate our relationship 3 mths from now (Aug 1st) and see where we are. I honestly never thought I could physcially survive to see that day and yet here I am, a week from that day, still standing (well kinda sitting really ) and its just plain amazing to me that its possible to be here. In my mind it was just a date so far away that all that mattered is that it was not that day and that he would still be there talking tomorrow.

If anybody lurking is reading then I hope that my story gives them hope that you can be in such a dark hopeless world crashing down place and still be alive and breathing 3 months later. I know there are many posters who have it far worse complicated than me but to me this is the worst time in my life that I have ever had to deal with. If this is the inititation fee to pay in order to have a happier rest of my life then so be it.

wmf,

The book I found most helpful at this point was "Relationship Rescue" by ..... Dr. Phil. I know, he isn't the best, but the book helped ME. It framed things in a less emotional way for me, and let me see what I needed to focus on in a way that pointed me in the right direction.

The back of the book also had some questions in it that helped me and my FWH have a few discussions that were GOOD instead of all-affair-all-the-time.

You might want to take a look at it. I did the work in the book, and it made a difference for me - helped me nail some thoughts down in a no-nonsense manner.

My husband actually read parts of it, and wasn't too put off by it. He's not much into self-help, and it isn't all fluff and goo.



I know what you mean about wanting to be strong and present a good front. At your point in recovery, that is very important. It helps during Plan A, and you are doing a very good job from what you've said.

The fact that he is showing signs of understanding the depth of your pain means the walls are coming down. He might be ready to start talking some about things, is he doing that with you at all? Are you at least having your questions answered?

SB

That may be so but that in of itself does not make me feel better . Should it.? As I said earlier I thought his remorse and attention woulf fix all but it does not seem to do the trick.


He has given me more information regarding deatils of the A than I can handle. I did want to know everything beacuse I have a vivid imagination and fantasized much much more than really went on. Now that I know exactly what happened for most of those 4 weeks (when,how,where) my images are contained to be limited to what actually happned. Its like a movie playing in my head over and over and over and the button is on scence select. At any point day or night these scenes come into my head and the movie statrs playing and I have to force myself to walk away from it. It taking a toll on me physcially. So yes I would say all my questions about the A have been answered.

Other than that we converse about everday stuff on a daily basis and H seems much happier than pre D day which I am happy for. I am saddened by the fact that he seems to be busy at work and hobbies and thankful for the fact that his ENs are being met so its almost like he has moved on from this little affair mess. I feel like as long as I am doing plan A and not having any converstaions about the grief our (mostly his) days are good. Its almost as if time is up and I feel bad about still greiving about the death of my old marriage. How long do I get to get over this, how long am I allowed to mourn ? At what point will he say oh not that again , it was in the past and you cant still be going on about that. What if he starts to feel that I am never going to get past this ( and is that the real truth).

I am stuck in this recovery process that seems to move forward at a snails pace and then give me moments of happiness when my H throws a bone my way. Its almost like wow he is go great cause he did this one thing, or she showed he cared, or he must really love me cause feels bad that I am sad. More units deposited for him.

Part of it might be cause he does have a stresfull job that occupies 8-10 hours of his day while I have the same 8-10 hours to ponder and dwell on this.

I am reading , posting, working on the worksheets, meanwhile he does the mininal attempt towards the same and is rewarded by my tail wagging to show my pleasure at is effort. The emotional side of me wants him to put in "effort" and "time" towads us. The logical side of me knows his job takes priority over us and he is happier not having to deal with it so I need to just GET OVER IT if I dont want to keep slipping backwards.

I know my posts keep flip floping on an emotional level from day to day but can you imagine the havoc this roller coaster is playing on my body. I guess many of you can, you have sadly been here before.

Remorse and attention will not fix how you feel. Both of your actions will create a new marriage. And time, you need time. Compare it to death, there is at least of year of grieving, fond memories, times where you actually forget and then WHAM, you remember that someone close to you is gone.

While recovery time tables are unique to some extent, you are looking at two years on average. Now, every day is not going to be a bad day. What kind of life is that? Neither of you would last very long if every day was bad. But it is not up to you to make sure every day is good. Your H will need to put his time into your relationship too.


Are you opposed to antidepressants? They are not a sign of weakness. Just something that can help you deal a little better. There are several BS here that use/used ADs. You could get some of their thoughts if you were on the fence if ADs would be a good idea for you. There are also some natural ADs.


The recovery process is SLOW. It takes a lot of work and effort from both you and your H. After you have recreated the habits in your relationship towards one another it won’t feel like effort. It feels natural and relaxed and you’ll wonder why neither of you created these loving habits years ago.


First off, we all have stressful jobs. That is just the way life runs these days. We have to make the choice to leave work and spend some R&R with those we love. Trust me, the work will still be there and it will get done. In SAA Harley talks about finding a new job that allows more time together. If that is not an option H needs to make sure that he still does his part in your relationship.

I’m guessing that you stay home with the kids and keep the house. It looks like your kids are school age so you probably have time to yourself during the day. Use this time more productively. If you are cleaning, have a book on tape/cd that you are listening to while cleaning. I transfer books to my ipod to listen to while doing housework. It makes the time go faster and keeps my mind from thinking too much.

How do you feel about painting? You could set a new mood in rooms by painting. Plus, at least for me, a fresh coat of paint makes everything seem clean and new…as in a new relationship together.


The emotional and logical side wants your H to put in effort & time into your marriage. The job should not be priority.

YOU are his priority.

He will see this.

Have you guys worked on the POJA? Seems like maybe it could be used for balancing job, hobbies, marriage and family. Right now it sounds like you are not happy with the current arrangement.

And on an aside. I hear you minimizing your situation...saying others have it worse. Don't minimize it. Your situation is painful too.

Thanks Jlr its nice to get some feedback on how I am feeling

2 years just seems so long and so far away. I thought I would never make it to 3 months. Not everyday is a bad day but when there is a bad day it just seems that of the 2 of us I am the only one who seems to be having them. Its just frustrating to see him move on and me stuck in sand insipt eto me puutin gin most of the effort.


I am not opposed to Ad's per say but I have a tought time taking vitamins (I dont on a regular basis bad bad bad I know) nor do I take tylenol for headache so I think it would be tough for me to take something just to help me feel better. I think a little sunshine and an activity from my list of pursuit of happiness should do the trick if I can bring my head out of my [censored] to go do it.

That choice is not something H is willing to make. He enjoys the fulfilment he gets from his career( I know I have been there) and as much as he hates the work that goes into it he is not ready to put it on the back burner for us. We have had this talk several times (pre A) and he thinks when I say he can take a lesser paying job or put less effort into his current he thinks I live in fantasy land and if he did any of those things we would not survive . On my ENQs finiancial stability is low on my list because I know I can live with what ever we make. Just be cause we have a creatin lifestyle does not mean we cant do without it. I belive everbody spends what they have. If we had less we would spend less.
Part of the complication is the struggle between him wanting to live the fantasy of being the "provider" and wanting me to stay at home and take care of the kids and be taken care of fininacially. The other part of him is resentful that I have all this time in the day (now that the kids are in school) to enjoy and do the things that I want. Meaning I have the choice on how to fill my day where as he HAS to go to work.
When I first quit my job 9 years ago I was riding high at the corporate laddder, smart young and progressing by leaps and bounds. 2 kids later it was apparent to me that 2 parents could not actively pursure careers and still raise kids that were given plently of attention and love from the parents . So begrudglingly I stepped down to fill my role as mom and supported my h in his role as Father and provider.
For long time after I resented the joy that he got from being able to go to work and have adult conversations while I dealt with diapers and kid talk. Over the years the "babies" got bigger and it was kinda fun being a mom and I love it now. I still miss felling appreciated from what I have to offer . There is no pay increase or bonus at the end of year to show you that you did a great job at mothering, but I am not willing to give up my "MOM" role to do get that fulfilment. (I still crave it just cant bring myself to do it at the cost of the kids).
I have offered to go back to work so we can relive any finiacial burden my h feels that he is unable to quit because of finaical reasons, but he takes that to mean that he is a failure at being a provdider so he needs to earn more and work harder so I dont have to. ARRRGGGG!
Funny you should say that. I spend most evening last ight prepping the bedrrom to be painted a nice serene green. Blue masking tape everywhere. Have not picked the color yet I ahev all kinds of samples from HD stuck to the wall. I did not think about the clean and new ascpect, just the more pretty and happier vision of a room that we spend a lot of time in. Not sure if I will get to the painting part before we leave Friday but definately next week, in the mean time, masking tape everwhere and H worked late last night so between the exhaustion of painting the lack closeness with H is contributing to todays darkness.

You are right that is exactly what I am doing, its almost as if I feel guilty about even having to post beacuse so many people have so many complications to add and I am whining and complaing about the pain even thought my H has ended the A that caused the pain. Its like even I am not giving myself permission to grief and demanding that I shake it off . the only sad part is I cant just shake it off , it really hurts

{{{WMF}}}

You and I are in similar situations although I am a bit farther down the bumpy road than you are. I will try to read through your thread. I've got three little ones who interrupt me a lot. You might look at my thread...I've made it through some of the hurdles.

One thing that strikes me is that we want this to be fixed quickly and it just isn't that simple. We have to allow our relationships to evolve into something new. Your H may not be putting in as much effort as you are, but he may also be doing things that you are unaware of...I know that mine was.

One thing we are working on together is talking about the things that we are consciously doing to promote our M. It helps both of us to know that we are working on things and it also helps to redirect energy if one of us is working on something that the other person doesn't need.

I'll write more later.

HTM

Thanks jlr.
I've been thinking about what is getting me down. Nothing has happened, no triggers etc, H has been exta caring and cautious so as to not cause pain, is being kinda attentive calling in and checking to see how I am doing all day and yet none of it is helping. I am not sure why I am down , on paper it seems like our M is making progress and yet I am unhappy.
Is this normal , does everyone get to a point where nothing helps.
I have plans to go out this evening with 2 of my BFFs just to hang out and have dinner as we dont get a chance to see each other often. Even the thought of that is not digging me out of this. I almost dont want to go and instead stay home and hug and hold my H and cry. Even as I say that I know that even a good cry wont help. What am I crying about?

We had a session with Jennifer for tonight that I cancelled and rescheduled for later next week. H has been too busy at work and hobby to have had time to do any of the homework we were assigned in our last session last week.

Its almost as if I want him to give up his job for 6 months or so, be completely focused on creating a new in-love-us before I am able to accept work, kids and lifes other distarctions. There are so many distractions or so many ways that his attention is spread thin that even without OW I feel he is not with me.

May be I am just expecting too much commitment and attention from him towards our relationship May be I need a job or a hobby or a different obsession to cure me from this one.

You sound just like I have. I think it's completely normal to be sad...for "no reason." I often feel like I don't want to go do things without H, because I feel like the time I have with him is precious and I want to be WITH him when I can. What I have had to realize is that sometimes giving myself free time makes me appreciate him more and helps me out of the depression.

I think of when I had my third baby and was really bad with ppd...one of the things I had to do was force myself to do things that I used to enjoy so that I would see they could still be fun. I wasn't motivated, but I did the things anyway. Eventually, it felt more enjoyable on its own.

You aren't expecting too much from your H. Both of you have neglected the amount of time it takes to make a great M, so it feels like an extra burden...especially to him if he is working full time and is used to having more free time. My H and I struggle with the other demands of life too. We have to really work hard to MAKE time with each other a priority. And I think that sometimes he does feel like it's more of a burden than a joy. But I know that it will pay off and I just keep encouraging him (and myself) to keep it up.

Pay close attention to the details...that helps me a lot. I noticed last night that H came to find me after the boys went to bed. It was like he WANTED to spend time with me. He didn't say that, but he hovered...that's a detail that I will hold on to when I think he's not feeling the desire.

wmf,

You can't fix this fast .


You want to. You want to fix it fast and move on.

Only that isn't how this works.


If I were sitting next to you when you said that you were worried about when he would say something like "Oh, is she crying about that again, just get over it an move on," I would just reach over and pop you in the head!!!!

Maybe pop both of you in the head, if he were to actually say something like that.

Because you will NOT "just get over it".

If your expectation is that, or his expectation is that, then a good head-thumping is coming your way from 'Da-Bus.


You have had a nuclear bomb go off in your marriage, and you've had about 90 days to clean up the fallout?????? Gee. Give yourself a break!!!!!

You are crying because it HURTS, wmf. It hurts. And while you might be a brave and strong creature, this kind of pain goes through your soul and comes out the other side still on fire.

You have had something happen in your life that made you question the very essence of who you are. You thought your life was one thing, and come to find out, it wasn't that at all. In fact, it was something completely different, something you never thought it would ever be, and it was something painful and something that betrayed your thought of what it was and it was betrayed by the one person who would never have betrayed you or your life.............and you stood in shock and agony over that, in disbelief, in darkness and the world stood still.

It stands still sometimes, now and again, as it did that day.

And it will stand still now and again, as time goes by.



There is nobody with a stopwatch timing you. No one to say, "Your time for grieving has passed, and you must be healed now." Only you will know when that time comes, because your mind will only pass to d-day or the affair occasionally once you are healed, and the pain will be a distant memory then.

That distance is not gained in a few months.

Your husband is only now beginning to understand that he has a great task before him. He has not yet begun his work, and has not yet set his foot upon the path of restitution for you. I know this because you have begun to express the anger of a BS, the anger that he isn't pulling his share of the work.

And rightly so. It is time for him to read with you. When he comes home at night, after the kids are sent back to their rooms, tell him that you need him to read with you for 10 minutes in one of the books every night, or on the homework. Only 10 minutes, because that is what you will need to help you both move forward. You need his 10 minute a day commitment - that he is working on the homework, or working on the reading, or doing his share of the work. Because NO, HE DOES NOT GET A FREE PASS. He has to do the work - and you are giving him a pass, because he has a job.

Sorry, but he had a JOB and also found time to screw around on you. That took more than 10 minutes a night, wmf. So I am POSITIVE THAT HE CAN FIND THOSE 10 minutes for your marriage.

And he had better, or the marriage will be lost. Because a major reason marriages fail after an affair is that the wayward spouse does not put in the effort - and the betrayed spouse just gets tired of doing the work on their own.


SB

Amen...can you come over and thump my WH in the head?

I think it is easy to feel like 15 hours is impossible...but the reminder that WH found LOTS of extra time for OW is a good example of how it is possible if you are motivated to find it.

I like the idea of asking for 10 minutes a night. That doesn't feel like you're asking the impossible and yet, it means that he makes a DAILY commitment to you and your recovery.

HTM

Thump! thats you popping me on the head and me saying Ouch!
Ok you are right I absolutely needed that thump on the head and here is course correction due to it. I am extending my deadline before which I cannot say that I am worried about still crying about it for another 3 months so Aug 1st is not my date , its now Nov 1st. I know its not the right answer because what you are saying is that there should be no self imposed deadline, but for my own sanity I need to know that there is a definate timeframe and this is what works for me now. Its a mind game but for now it gives me permission to grive without thinking I am dwelling in it.
Well so far H does not need that thump as he has not verbalized it aloud, I deserve a double thump for verbalizing it several times in front of him and settign that seed in his head.


Bingo ding ding ding! that is exactly where I am . Angry and sad. Its really comforting and saddening to realize that you can see thru what I am going thru and calmy express to me that is natural progression. To me its like insanity inside my head and when I see you write so eloquently what my brain is unable to put in simple words without sadness its just ........
Anyways he thinks he is puttign in tons of effort by being caring and showing compassion and when I am still sad he takes that to mean what he is doing is worthless cause it is not helping, it makes him feel like everytime we talk all his effors to that point were meaningless and he is starting all over. So he is starting to feel beat up and disheartened and un appreciated for all the effort he is putting in from his point of view.

Last week's sesion with jennifer was to do the " I love it when " ENQ sheet and share. We had a follow up session with her scheduled for yesterday which I had to cancel as H had not done any of the homework required to do that. Now I have been brooding all week because again I dont want to make him do it. I should not have to leave littel post it with hearts saying "honey dont forget...". I dont want to be his mom saying dont foregt ur lunchbox. He knows it was what we talked about during the MC that needs to get done and he CHOSE to spend all week Tues thru Tues either working or spending an extended weekend following his hobby of racing.
So last night back to unproductive sleepless marathon session ( yes I know my bad)explaing my unhappiness at his neglect at that. His response, well the paper (ENQ) is meaningless, I am too much into the MB religion and he is more focued on implementing the principals outlined rather the doing another JOb ( ie stupid homework for the MC). He already has a joba nd he does not want to feel like this recovery is another thing he has to schedule time for and work at , I guess that too hard.

I am all for discountinuing the MC if thats not working for him or if I religion IN MB and prechiness is too streong for him, but the sadness comes in beacuse that was my level of expectaion from him for this week. That was how I set my gauge on how he was to do his part this week towards healing and working on our M. Since at no point did he verbalize to me that he did not think that taking the 45 minute sto do that was important - my logical side goes , well obviously he does not care enough about the M to put in the work.
So I really dont want to accept that my marriage is doomed beacuse I really do want this to work out but I am also unwilling to sit by and not have him put in the effort. So where do I go from here. Another week of setting expectations from him and then not delivering, another week of me putting in more effort to once again clearly communicate what my expectations from him are and the being exhausted and dissapointed at the results.
My fantasy of the blissfully easy escape route of throwing in the towel and me not having to work on this M either cause its gettign too hard is getting stronger and stronger by the day. I know its fantasy and if we end up in a D it will probably be worse unhapiness than today and yet my strenght fails me in wanting to continue to expect this M to survive in what appears to me a mountain evidence to the contrary

I can understand his lack of motivation becaue the A was all happy happy fantasy times, he cried and she gave him a shoulder, he said I was horrible and neglectful and see said oh Poor you let me kiss your pain away. Its easy to find more and more time for that when you are getting what you need.
With us at this point when I ask him if he is happy with how I am meeting his needs, when he is being honest he tells me he is happy with all that I doing for him. IS everthing perfect no. IS he overwhelmingly happier that pre-A , YES.
The unhappiness for him comes in beacuse he is frustrated that no matter what he seems to do its not producing the same elated happiness at my end. So he thinks he is puting in the effort and is looking for a pat on the back. I think he is neither putting in enough nor the right kind of effort towards the M. So how can I make him feel motivated and at the same time convey to him that what he is doing needs to change.
I was at this point last Friday and had a marathon talk explaining that. I was happy at the small signs of progress for the next day or 2. Now I have just had another marathon session that felt like deja vu last night. So I am at a loss for how to proceed .
There can only be 2 roadblocks -
Either I am a terrible communicator and I really am unable to convey to him what I am processing in my head.
Or he hears me and is just unwilling or unable to deliver for what ever the reason.
May be its a combination of both, but whats the solution ?

WMF-

Listen to these lovely ladies.

They give great guidance.

I'll be thinking of you but a client just swept me away and I'll need to focus on this for a few days. I'll try to check in at night...if time with my DH allows it...see how I'm making that choice.

So your H is on board with the MB principals. Go with that. Create a new habit with him. That first habit being time together (for your H). You need to figure out what habit you need to create for your relationship.

Only work on one habit at a time. Once it is mastered move on to another habit that creates a better marriage.

Allow yourself to grieve.


Remember this is foreign to your H right now. This is something you have to work on together.

But...

No more marathon's.

Not good for anyone...not good for you.

Oh, oh, oh...I think I know of a habit you might need to work on in your relationship. Verbalizing daily what you need from your H. Didn't he say that he wanted more of that from you. Have you been asking for his time instead of all the time at work or on HIS hobby that you do not share much of an interest in?

I'm sending happy thoughts your way. Be reseptive of the good vibes (or vibrations if you like to dance )

I thought he was on board with the MB principals now he claims it too much religion, not really fun and lots of stupid work. So NO I would not say he is on board with the principals. He likes them and thinks they are great on paper but are too cumbersome and "un fun" to implement in reality.

I really appreciate all the good thoughts and positive encouragement from you and the time and effort you (all) put into responding to my issues. Thanks, I know you guys have your own lives and own trigers and I am thankfuul that I have this place to come to and that you guys do respond and shine some light.

WMF,

Your H is EXACTLY like mine. I don't know if that is any consolation, but I think that my H and I will recover and we have been right where you are.

Some things that I have found that have helped me...

* Downplay the labels of MB. Focus on the basic principles...they are sound advice and seem to be harder to debate than the "cult-like" (my H's words) appearance of MB.

* When things bug you, talk with your H about that day. I cannot stress this one enough. Don't wait for the end of the week and have a marathon talk...I think that is a LB. I found that telling my H in a "sandwich" of compliments and hope helps. I'll say, "Honey, I love the way you have been spending so much time with me. I am still uncomfortable with you staying up later than me though. I know that you and I can make it through this together." My H says that it is easier to hear the problem with hope.

* Go overboard in recognizing his efforts. I went through a phase where I would thank H for every thing that he did for me throughout the day. Yeah, he thought I was nuts, but he got the point.

* Remind H in a caring way that while you appreciate all of the things that he is doing, you are still hurting. It doesn't mean that you don't think he is working hard at recovery, you just are still working through YOUR stuff. It's ok for you to tell him that you are feeling sad (any emotion) and you just wanted to share that with him...that he doesn't have to DO something to fix it.

* Try to make the 15 hours a week FUN stuff...not relationship work/talk. It's important to have a time set aside to talk about recovery, but it should not be what you spend the most time doing. You and your H are DATING so that you will both feel love for each other again.

When you get a chance, read through some other threads. It helps to see other people stuck in the same places. I guess misery loves company, right?

HTM

OH...I forgot. The stuff about this being too much work. Heard that one too. I think it is a defense mechanism that the WH has when things start getting tough to face. He is coming out of the fog and realizing the extent of what he did and by accepting the amount of work he needs to do to recover, I think he is somehow admitting how devastating his actions were. It's a tough pill to swallow.

HTM

That sounds like a good and do-able plan. Need to make sure I "speak" to him everyday . May be I need to type and write out what to say and only read what is written so it does not turn into a marathon session. Maybe a daily/ nightly email to communicate my feelings and thoughts of the day. Sounds un-romantic but productive. May be written instead of a verbal communication dialog that invariably turns into him attempting to defend himself is a better start until I can communicate to him safely without it being exhausting.

I better start doing that too and quickly otherwise I am sure pretty soon he will be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in reagards to the MB principals and solutions.

OK, I love having staff to help me out. I get a message from a client that freaks me out because I forget that I should delegate and not take it on all myself.

Here’s my ramblings/thoughts:



Seems worth repeating…often.



Your marriage does not have to be doomed. Wipe that feeling right out of your mind. That kind of negativity isn’t going to help your mental well-being.

Your marriage can be recreated.

Your marriage can be something better.

Your marriage can be positive.

Expectations are dangerous. Its very difficult for someone to measure up to our expectations, especially when we are trying to create a better marriage. Some things are going to come easily and our expectations will be meant.

Most things are going to be difficult…leaving what we expected from someone else to be crushed.

Expect a happy life together.

Don’t expect it to happen overnight.

Expect love and joy.

Don’t expect your H to remember everything from a marathon (naughty) session.

Expect a new marriage.

Don’t expect new habits to create themselves.



I see plenty of evidence that your marriage will THRIVE.

Re-read some of your posts from the days you feel more positive. Look at the things that have changed, even slightly, in your marriage. Don’t forget your “Why” sheet.

Re-read your post in the “How did/are you earning your BS’s respect back” thread. You said some nice things about your H. I’ve seen where HTM will just copy & paste what she has written in another thread if it seems like good thoughts related to her recovery. You might consider the same.

I’m so sorry, but a lot of the times the burden of recovery falls upon the BS in the early stages. Part of it is WS fog…I think that part of it is the WS embarrassment/guilt/shame from what they did.

Your H will get to the point where it won’t seem like work all the “effort” he puts into your relationship. When it starts to come naturally because it’s a habit it will be a piece of cake for him.

Have you read Fall in Love, Stay in Love? While SAA has its place I really like this book. It takes concepts from the Harley’s main books and brings it all together. Can you guess that I’m really on board with creating new habits.

Those old habits didn’t work too well for any of us.





I think what HTM said in response to you was worth repeating too.



The Harley’s talk about sitting down on Sunday at 3 to schedule this time. If you think you can’t get buy in from your H for 15 hours of FUN time together, start at a slower pace…even 5 hours a week of FUN is going to help. Soon those 5 hours will be nothing and you can build a few more hours together.

Keep in mind this time together is spread out during the week. Here again, no marathon sessions to get all your time together.

Think its hard…do things together that you did when you were first married. Clear the table and talk. Wash and dry dishes together and talk.

The “and talk” is not A talk. Suppose to be enjoyable time together.

And I would leave "Try" at the door...MAKE is a word of action (my little 2x4 for you and your H )



With the FUN time together this feeling will be replaced.

OK, back to the devil of a client...and I'm not exaggerating.

You're STRONG and your marriage will become strong through your efforts. Your H doesn't have to drink the MB kool-aid, you can help water down for him.

Apologize for the length.

Ok So all the 2x4 's amd crtuches you are giving me are doing the magic. I feel much more positive about where I am and realize That I need to shift my expectations and demands of how and when this recovery needs to proceed.


These are very powerful words to me that you wrote there jlr in terms of concrete ways that I can help my own recovery. So I thank you for that post.

Todays plan is to find time to take care of myself ( dashing off to yoga class soon), detach from focusing on A and recovery. No more marathon or mini talks tonight. Sleeping on time and having energy to deal with tomorrow. Nothing more nothing less.

If in between there I can make sure to smile and hug DH then thats a bonus

I am proud of me this morning. Stuck to the plan, Its amazing what a good nights sleep can do for a mind and body. I feel much more energized and positive this morning. NO marathon or even mini talks yesterday and here is the best part - DH came home from work and said that he took some time out and worked on the ENQ sheet. So may be tonight if we still feel positive we will be spending the 45 minutes to share it with each other.
Tomorrow starts a 5 day kid free break , no work no kids just 5 days (and nights) of dedicated attention to having some time to have fun and relaxation together.

Hopefully I can stick to the we are on an extended date plan and no talk of A or R or even M for that matter.
Then next week after the time off I have to learn how to water down the MB Kool aide and keep it around so its not rejected by H . Because I really think ( u guys are drilling it into me) that if I stick with it and follow the plan , it can actually work

Great job WMF.

In this process we sometimes forget the importance of taking care of ourselves.

I don't have to tell you the benefits of yoga. Make it a weekly session for you. I was SOOOOO jealous to see you were going to yoga.

I'm going tomorrow but not to one the type I love...I love the hot yoga but that doesn't work in my schedule this week.

My H feels the benefits of yoga too so I got him hooked on the hot yoga too. There is a class late in the pm on Sunday's that we will go to and then grab a lite supper afterwards.

Is yoga something that your DH would share with you? He might not like it at first but after a few weeks I'm sure he would feel the difference and be more energized.


You might want to tone back to 20 minutes.

Remember schoolbus sugessted 10 minutes to warm up your DH to the "homework." You don't want to overwhelm him when he's not completely with the program (that will come).

Also, I suggest the toning back of how long in your mind because I'm thinking you are a little like me. I would say 45 minutes and then say well another 15 minutes won't hurt us...


This will be easier than you think. The principals are very common sense if you think about it. Sometimes we just need to be reminded that we should use our common sense.


Worth repeating

AND

On days you struggle a little more, come back to your post and read what YOU wrote about how

YOU feel

the POSITIVE energy!

And have a great time enjoying your DH on your road trip.

Enjoy your DH enjoying time with you.

You're doing GREAT! (Did you just picture Tony the Tiger from the box of cereal? I did. )

Me too! I so wish I could afford a real yoga studio. If I get some bills paid off this year, that's going to be my reward next year. Nothing better!

I started at this yoga place by me in Feb as a free trial, and have been going religiously ever since, During the school year it was easy M-thus. 4 days a week 9 am thats where I was. The 1st 2 months March April kinda felt like a bit of hocus pocus, everthing is too happy happy, the teachers were a bit too philosphical world is beautiful, be present carp. After 2 monts of ignoring the talking , I could see the benefits for my body. Now slowly the mind is following the body. Since its summer I am down to once a week ( I pay a flat fee for the month no matter how many classes I take) so thats bummer but thats my healthy escape when things get tough, but hard to do since I dont steadily use a babysitter . So it usually means time away from H . Yesterday I got a baysitter and went but 1/2 the class I spent in childs pose as I was so physcially exhaused . But it calmed the mind and gave it the one hour of stillness it needed.


Ive been hinting to H about joint yoga cause i think he would benefit too but so far no willingness on his part to try. Does not have enough time to himself to do the things he wants let alone do the things I want. May be I can work that into the 15 hr week time slowly and see if he will allocate the 1/5 hrs to that.


Agreed I will probably have to use a timer to ring a bell at the end of 45 minutes, sounds childish but like u said in an earlier post dont expect habits to form easily (see I am listening). Teh 45 minutescame from Jennifers suggestion 5 minutes per EN x top 5 needs x 2 persons. Is its done under 45 minutes then great . Cause I would like the romantic date to bein asap this evening. Now that I think about it I might even move our sharing session to Tues night when we return so we are not starting out with the ENQ stuff on our minds all weekend long.
ROLF, yes I can picture you saying it just with the same expression too.

Catperson,
I hope you are able to find a way to go. I must say it took me a few months of sticking with it before I started to see real results and benefits, even thought I already belived in its benefits. As a kid we did it all the time, many people in my family practice it back home all the time so even though I was open to it, it was a bumpy start but now I would not give it up for anything.
If I got to a point where I could not find the money to pay the monthy fee I would give up groceries for a week and live on PBJ (never mind the carbs in bread) and find a way to go. Its pricey especially now that I have the kids and home and need to pay a babysitter additional to go but for me the benefits at this point outweigh the costs.
I heard that argument somewhere on some thread between the cost of paying for MC with Harleys and the cost of divorce, seems like I am using the same argument for yoga, hmmmm.

I LOVE yoga. I have never been able to afford classes, so I got a couple of videos and do them at home. YogaZone is the one I started with because it really talks you through the specifics of each pose.

Then two years ago, when my oldest started kinder, we were blessed with a kinder teacher who also taught yoga. She did yoga with the kids every day. We got a video called Yoga Kids (it's a series) and now all three of my boys do it with me. They are a little more energetic about it than peaceful, but it's good nonetheless.

I have tried to convince H he would enjoy it. He complains about his back a lot and I think that it would really help. He just never seems motivated to try. I think he's a little intimidated...like what if I can do it and he can't.

WMF...
You are doing great! I think you should ask your H if he'd like to talk about the ENQ before or after your time together. He may have an opinion. It might actually be good (cos it's a positive thing) if you talk about it before your extended date...then you could both be thinking about how to meet each other's needs.

As for MB, keep the idea that it is really common sense. Drop the "terminology" like POJA, EPs and Radical Honesty and just talk about the concepts. They make sense when you look at them....

1. Know what makes me happy and try to do those things for me

2. Know what makes me unhappy and try to avoid those things

3. Always be honest with me about everything

4. Take steps to prevent the possibility of an affair

5. Protect our marriage by thinking about how your actions affect it

6. Make decisions WITH me so that we can both feel good about them


Got little ones demanding my attention...

HTM

Small T/J...


Both my H and I have low back problems...I blame mine on high jumping, not sure what his problem is ...we both felt a world of difference after just a month, once a week.

And I like the YogaZone too but am fortunate enough for class once a week. It was amazing how a little adjustment by the teacher really changed the move for me. Plus it kept me honest on doing it every week.

...End T/J

Wait! Wait! One more TJ. When I was being treated for stress and sore back long ago, my PT had me lie on my back, on top of a long white cylinder of dense foam. They have them at Bally's, probably other places; could probably buy one at a medical supply store. Anyway, you lie on your back, on top of it, and gravity makes your muscles relax, toward the ground, on either side of the tube, and it releases a TON of the strain on your back. You can also tilt your head to the left and to the right, hanging over the 'side' of the cylinder, to stretch out the neck muscles; when you come back up, your neck is less tight. You can also scoot up til your head is over the top edge of the cylinder, hang there for a while, and stretch out some other muscles.

It does wonders for my back!

If you can't find one of them, the PT said you can get a towel and roll it up in a tube and lie on it the same way. Not as good, but still helps. Have your H try it, htm.

Thanks guys.

HTM

I'm betting you are off for your FUN weekend with your DH but I wanted to wish you well.

Enjoy your time and I can't wait to hear about when you get back from vaca (again, I'm jealous! ).

Let us know how the weekend went. Hope all is well!

HTM

Extended weekend went well. It was a very nice and much needed escape for us to be able to spend time just dedicated to each other and no distractions kids housework etc. It was much needed and provided a great oppurtunity for us to have some fun and make more memories together.Created lots of different emotions ,Felt like we were playing hookie.
Strangely it felt like we were in a bubble just happy to be there. Wanst all happy happy ,there we some rough moments of sadness on the status of our relationship. No specific talk of A but rather more about the R and M . But at the same time we felt that the togetherness and the talking was helping make leaps and bounds of bonding and progress. So over all I would say that I feel stronger about the staus of our relationship. Its now exactly 3 months from D day and I think we are making ( dare I say good) progress. The good part about being in the "bubble" of fantasy of no work and all play (cause it kept reminding me of how the A must fell like in a bubble) is that even though the bubble is over and we are back home, we drove home together and so there is life for us outside of the bubble as oppsed to an A where all there is is stolen bubble moments when ever there can be achieved. No reality to follow up with that. So if our relationship can have these bubbles of sheer fun and still survive the reality of day to day tasks and life in general I think thats what its all about.

I also get the feeling that the "fog" is lifting. I see DH more and more sensitive to where our relationship turned beacuse of his A and his role in worsening our stich and not bettering it. I fedll thru his words and actions that he realises that the A and thoughts of it has caused permanent scarring in my mind and that he needs to replace that with more love and care from him in order to overcome that. So I am happy to hear him somewhat acknoledge that and his display of intent to work on that. I sound cautious here beacuse I know the pattern of procrastinating Dh where he has good intetions but does not actully follow them with actions. Nevertheless I am happy right now with the promise of it and will have to wait and see if it is delivered.

So short version is it was good fuel to keep us going and helped make lots of progess and gave me a more positive outlook in that it can be done and it is on the slow and gradual path that it needs to be on.

That's great! Now the trick is to have a mini-bubble of fun every day with your H. That's what the 15+ hours a week of time together is supposed to be.

It helps you to connect with each other and rebuild that feeling of love.

Good work.

HTM

This little mini-vacation sounds very positive. I'm so happy for you and glad that it lifted up your spirits.


Good attitude.

Also, now that your DH remember how much fun he can have with you, take action. Work on scheduling the 15 hours a week of fun, R&R time together.

I'm sure you did other things while dating or before kids that you both enjoyed together. Reinstate some of those things between the two of you. Find new things together. Invite him to try yoga with you again?

On another note, you mentioned your sister watched the kids. Can you two swap watching nights/days? I was thinking of a co-worker friend. These sisters trade off a couple times a week to watch the kids so that the other can workout or have a date with their H.

I second the kid-swap idea. We had a couple that we used to do that with and it worked great.

We promoted it as a "Kids Movie Night" at one house or the other. The kids got to watch a double-feature, have rootbeer floats and popcorn, and sprawl out together. The parents just happened to get to go out...but it was "for the kids." This helped us a lot with the kids getting excited about it. Our boys loved "hosting" movie night. We've gotta find another family to do that...

You don't live in SoCal do you?

HTM

Thanks

Question
Are there any older threads that you know of reagrding views on changing or new wedding rings post affair. I am struggling with this issue now. The search function is not working but I thought it might benefit me to read what people what felt about this is the past.

My stich is Dh's weding ring has been loose for him for about 3.5 years since he lost some weight. So he has not been wearing it since. When we had our phone calls with Jennifer she suggested to me that we get new rings. I was down right angry at her suggestion beacuse at the time I felt what she was saying is that the ring I was wearning was worthless and I should throw away the symbol on my finger for teh last 14 years beacuse that marrige is over. I did nto do anything to end that marrige so why should I have to get a new ring.
So I kinda worked on getting H a new ring or fixing his old ring. His old ring is too loose to be resized so it needs to be made new so I figued we can use the same metal melted down so its not really a new ring. Tlked about it and Dh says he would like a ring but has not done anything ( read procrastination) to get one.
Last week before we left on vacation I dropped off the old ring to the jewler to let him know that we wanted a new one made. Told H 2 days before that I was going to go drop it off. Did not measure himself. ON my way there I called H and he used a website paper thing to measure, but jewler said we needed exact ring size. So during the vacation I told H that we need to stop at any jewler and get him sized and then phone in the size so that our jelwer can begin making his ring.
Inspite of the fact that we literraly walked past 10-12 jelwers on this entire trip and I pointed out atleast 2 seperate times as we passed them that we needed to do that he did not participate. So all week It kinda kept sinking in that I was the only one who was bullying him ( I am kinda pushy) into getting a ring.
On the other hand Jennifers words have been haunting me since 3 weeks. So I was thinking may be when we get H's ring done I can get a new ring for me so they are the same or together or some how connected. Maybe I can wear 2 the old one and the new one engraved with D date as a staring point to out new R ( dont knowif I want a constant reminder either). After H's non action towards trying to get a ring ,I guess I am thinking why I am wearing a wedding ring which is obvioulsy so meaningless to H. One person earing a ring means nothing in a marriage. So on the last morning of our trip I took off my rings ( wedding and engagement) and let H know that I will not be wearing a ring by myself as it obviously is not an important symbol to him. He was down right hurt and thought it was a step backwards and an act towrads beaking our realtion ship not fixing it. He was hurt that I said the ring was meaningless. He thinks we are making progress and this is huge decision I made without consulting him or letting him that that it means so much to me that he wear a ring.
The way I see it is there are 2 wedding rings not one so he is the one who chooses not to wear one and I am the stupid one for carrying the "pretense" of the existance of our old marrige and I am tired of doing that. I am so confused on this issue.
At the same time I am so pained at seeing my naked finger. I did not realise how much it meant to me and now that I have taken it off I am very saddened and miss it. I dont know weather I should just put it back on by my self of stay strong thru the pain and find a better outcome.

Any suggestions if you guys have dealt with this before. Like I said our realtionship is on the right path I feel positive about moving forward but I dont want to move forward alone. I want to be on the same step as H so if he and I have a joint rings to symbolize our marrige great. If not then I guess I live the pain and sadness of not wearing one.

Yep thats the plan I have Thursady nights schdeuld with babysitter so thats 4 hrs. We make sure to talk most evenings on his commute home that 1 hr 5 days a week. Going to try to get some weekend time next.



Nope that wont work on a regular basis. Sis lives 1.5 hrs away from me so it was a once is a year ( notice I did not say lifetime) oppurtunity for me. I really appreciate her help in this as its not easy to chase 3 little active kids around that are young when you are not usaed to doing that. Her kids are grown and almost gone so I really really apprecaited what she did for me.

Sorry all the way on the other coast

Finding another couple is a great idea in the the meanwhile I will just have to find a way to raise some money to pay a babysitter( hurrah for Ebay). Seems like what ever the cost of achieving the 15 hrs time together + Jennifer coaching + activites we will do together its worth it. I just have to realistically balance what we can afforsd and not move towards a finiancal crisis which in the end will hamper our marital happiness.
I am pretty good about budgeting and living within our means and so far we are doing good, I just have to make sure we continue to do good and not fall under the trap of spending with recless abandonment beause it might buy happiness.

The ring thing concerns me. I understand what you are saying about feeling like it is meaningless if you are the only one wearing a ring, but at the same time I wonder if you really thought about what your actions might symbolize for your H.

My suggestion is that you ask H to make a date with you to go to the jeweler together. Don't just figure you'll get there, actually plan and set a time to do it. Let your H know that you WANT to wear your ring, but that you want him to wear his as well. In order to do that, you need to go to the jeweler.

I don't think you need to get new rings, per se, but maybe you can tweak yours a bit (maybe just get it cleaned so it sparkles again).

I know that I immediately felt like I had been the only one making vows for real and that I wanted H to ask me to marry him again and renew our vows when he meant it. I think that it's unrealistic to expect these things in the beginning. Baby steps.

BTW...I still have hope that H will ask me to marry him again, but it will have to be his own doing, when HE feels it.

HTM

Please elaborate on your concern.


So now I know its not an isolated fantasy of mine alone but more a normal reaction to what a WS might feel in the same situation as me.


I did that already 3 weeks ago and he said yes he would love new rings. Now here is the problem if he wants a ring to symbolize our M then HE needs to schedule or do some action to get it or them. So far its been me pushing him to get them and that is so one sided. I dont want him to get it only for me . I want him to get it cause it means something to him as well. And if it does not mean something strong enough to him to get over his procrastination ( assuming that is the only real reason) then he does not get to enjoy the joy to seeing it on my finger if I dont get the same benefits from him. If its meaningful then we both do something about it or I accept that its nothing and let go my own individual need for wanting it.


I am sorry if I seem angry and stubborn about this issue but I am learning that it is far better for ME to feel pain and sadness than it is for me to feel resentment towards H and then letting that build a gap between us.

I recall reading things about this but I don't think it was a specific thread. What you could do, to get different perspective, is just post a general question as a new thread but ask them to stop by your thread with comments. Or if they know of a specific thread if they could bump it up for you to look thru.

Regarding new rings, I think that is something you need to decide for yourself. Our MC suggested this, Jennifer didn't but we were at a different point when we talked with her, and I reacted pretty much the same way you did at first. My sweety liked the idea and I rethought it this way. I could use my diamonds and put it in a new setting or have the current setting and have it redisenged. Then it would be my wedding ring just in a new format. That was 2.5 years ago...

Come to today and we haven't done anything. Still our original rings in their original settings.

However...

We are getting new rings for our upcoming anniversary and are planning on recommitting with one another. The new rings don't mean that all of our time together previously was bad.

The new rings symbolize our NEW marriage/relationship. It will symbolize how we both have changed the negative impact we had on each other (not to say we are perfect now) into a NEW and improved life together.

What we had before, the good stuff is still there. The bad stuff, we handle in a different way now.

The new rings will be there to remind us that we have a new life together (and a second chance to have a happy ending).

Some of those things helped me into really getting on board with new rings. Now I'm all giddy at the thought. It's like getting engaged all over again. Then again we are going to be in Cabo for a week when we exchange our new rings, so maybe the sun and the pool side drinks will be what makes me giddy.

You'll still close to D-day and haven't seen all the positive things that will happen to your M with MB. (Don't you hate that sometimes you have to be reminded of common sense things like don't "love bust"!?!)

I would suggest holding off making any decision about new rings for a while. You might have a change of heart.

As for your DH ring right now, I can't speak about it. It sounds from what you've written that he isn't opposed to wearing a ring that its his darn procrastination.

Perhaps some of your time together this week can be a trip to the jewerly store:

"I would really love it if we could go and get your ring sized and then stop for ice cream together."

Can you do breakfast together once a week before the kids get up? That was one thing that my hubby and I did to get time together at first. And there is no extra financial outlies. You need breakfast (or coffee) anyways. Just need to get up a little earlier so you can really talk to one another for 20 - 40 minutes while you eat, at least I do otherwise my breakfast is ate in the car.

My concern about the whole ring thing is that you may be love busting and not meaning to. Your goal is to recommit...you don't want H to think that you are giving up.

I don't know that I agree with the idea that H needs to do the work in order for it to be meaningful. I know that my H doesn't mean to, but he's just oblivious to the details. Oftentimes I HAVE to lead him. We agree that if he feels strongly against something, he will tell me...but otherwise, he may just be preoccupied with other things. Not fair, but reality in my M.

I've learned over the past few years that if I need something, I need to ask for it. Sometimes asking for it, means that I make it happen. I had to let go of the feeling that it wasn't meaningful if I had to ASK H for something...like holding my hand or kissing me goodnight. I just had to realize that he didn't THINK of those things on his own. Yes, in a perfect world I would want him to be the hopeless romantic, but he's not. So rather than be upset with him, I recognize this as a weakness and help him to take care of me the way that I need to be cared for.

Just food for thought.

HTM

We do .. That was one of the things that H was lacking as in the am he just awoke and went into work and everyone was asleep. He always wanted me to wake up in the am and have tea with him. pre D day I did it maybe 1-2 times a month. Post D -day 3-4 times a week ( on weekdays) unless I have an had a particularity exhausting day or night and its wayy yyy to early to get up. SO I guess I should count those 20 minutes a day too

I think I really need some time to figure out an accepatable plan. A plan that works for both of us just not me. I dont want to treat him like a horse and lead him to the jewler. I am already made it amply clear that I am bothered by the fact that he does not wear one. Ofcourse fantasy would be if he would be knight in shinnig armour and come up with a fabulous solution all on his own that still has not oocured to me and kiss all the pain away ( yep still a little girl at heart).

Tonight we are sharing our ENQ and under affection I added I would really love it if you would "Take some time to think about and discuss a mutually acceptable solution to the ring issue. I feel very sad about being in a position of me not wearing one. "


Is that clear and not LBusting enough hick ??

Totally clear! The best way that I have found to express my needs without LBs is "I statements." I feel...when you... I like it when you... That way, the comment is about YOU and your reaction, not about his actions.

I use this with my kiddos too. Instead of "You're lying" I say "I don't believe you"...they can't argue with MY feeling. I do a lot of "I don't like it when you..." too. It's a SMALL adjustment to speech, but it makes a BIG difference.

The only thing for me is that my H KNOWS that I am purposefully using I statements and he sometimes feels like the "schoolteacher" is talking to him instead of his wife.

HTM

Let me apologize in advance if this offends you in anyway.

It is just an interesting observation to me that you and I were both hurt and offened by the idea of throwing away symbols of our marriage even though we ended up on opposite sides of the fence in our marriages ( ie, BS vs WS).

I am not trying to question why you felt that way, just trying to understand your frame of mind about the rings so I can better understand my own WS's feelings on the subject.

If he already disrespected the marriage with the A then why would it matter if the rings were old or new to him. He has indicated to me that he does not want to melt the old metal but rather keep his old ring and get a new one to his size and indicated that he was unhappy that I took mine off even thou it fits.


On a more cuurent note I think its a great plan to get new rings for your 10th anniversary its a great opportunity to update the symbols of what you have in a new relationship now. Adding a beach vacation with that with a symbol of renewing vows sounds really really great. I am truly happy for you and you H and comforted by the sucess story of your marrige . Its noce to see that relationships can overcome such a tough situation.

No offense taken.

I own my actions for the past and know that I am in a better place today. I'm not proud of my choice but I know and more importantly my H knows that the way I moved my boundaries during the A will not happen again. We really are better as a couple now...not the way to get here though.

I would say that it was a couple things for me reaction.

1. I am a girl and there is the sentimental side that remembers very clearly how everything happened during our courtship and wedding. Our rings bring back the light feeling when I think of how my head was in the clouds (in a good way).

2. We had good years together and it felt like I would be throwing that time away if we got new rings. I was out (or maybe coming out is a better description) of the fog when it was brought up. It hit me that we both let things slip in our M but I was the one who may have destroyed it but I was recalling that things weren't as terrible as I thought. The ring met to me that there were good things with my H and I during that time which is why it was worth the cr@p to R our M. "Giving up" our rings, to me, met that I was giving up everything before.

Something I think about now regarding our rings...we didn't have any rings for two years while we dated. Getting the new(old) rings didn't change that history. The new rings won't change our good things, or our bad things, but they will symbolize new and improved relationship.


Well it will technically be 9 years this November but I know it will still be great.

We are debating if we are going to invite immediate family. Part of us wants to share with them and part of us wants to enjoy this time to ourselves. We still have time to figure that out.

Getting here wasn't over night but we are both thankful we got here. I think of some of the unfun things we had (failed IVF) and know that overcoming those things and my A really means that there is nothing but brighteness in our future. Yes, it us and how we handle what life throws us, but its nice to KNOW that bad crap is gone.

Life is good.

Thanks


May be its a female sentimental thing of tying emotions to things and memories. The ring is really really is just a chunk of metal ( of couse the diamond is a diamond , it sparkles ) to which I am attaching 14 years of all the memories in my marriage.

It would be nice to see my hubby get out of the fog and admit and realize that I can see that our R was obviously not very healthy as neither of our needs were being met but I also feel that the A really did destroy what ever we did have , and now I feel we are in an intensive car unit taking MB medication to heal . Either the medication will work enough to move us out of the ICU some day we can move to the recovery ward , or ....

And that alone can make a girl smile.


It can only destroy the bad, unhealthy parts of your M.

The good ones will still be there even after ICU.

The bad, however (and thankfully), will be healed in a positive manner.

wmf,

I had issues with my ring after the A, too.

I took it off. I just didn't want to wear it! My H hadn't worn his in a long time - he had gained some weight and it didn't fit.


I also had an anniversary ring he had bought me right before his A, that I didn't want to wear at all. I couldn't be absolutely sure of it - was he in the A when he bought it, or not, I didn't know.....I wasn't positive....he said NO!!!!! But I was paranoid, you know how it is.

Anyway, he was greatly bothered that I wouldn't wear my ring. It hurt him immensely. I said, well, YOU don't wear a ring, so neither do I.

He explained he wanted a ring, but his didn't fit. I just said, too bad. I wanted to wear a ring, but MINE WAS MEANINGLESS.

What a lovebuster, huh?

I crushed him.

He asked about the 30 years before his A - meaningless? And what of the next 30? How could he go on, if he thought that there was no chance? That none of it meant anything to me?

I said it was just a ring. It killed him.

So he started hunting for his own ring, because somehow, it started meaning something to him to wear a ring. He came to me one day and asked me to please wear my ring. I said that I wasn't ready, wasn't sure. He got down on one knee and asked me, with the ring in his hand, to please wear "his" ring again, to be his wife, and wear the symbol of our marriage. Weak or strong, wear it. He put it on my finger, and I have worn it.

He found a new wedding ring for himself on our trip to Alaska, and wears it every day. He asked me to put it on his finger, in the store. We renewed our vows on the trip - he made the arrangements to do that, too.

I still didn't know about the anniversary ring. And then one day I was thinking about it.

The ring has about 40 diamonds in it. Some are princess cut, some are round cut. Some are large, some are small. When you look very, very closely at the diamonds, I'm sure you can see small flaws in this one or that one, while others shine nearly perfectly. But when you put the ring on your finger and hold it up in the sun's light to look at it, the radiance of the ring is glorious. It shines and sparkles with the diamonds all together as one, reflecting beautifully all the colors of the rainbow. The ring is sort of like our married years. Some have been smooth, others rough. Some have been really beautiful, others have had their flaws. If you look closely, there have been some terrible times, and there have been some wonderful moments. But if you hold up the years of our lives together and look back as a collection of memories, it has been a wonderful time, a glorious life of raising kids and great vacations and first homes and laughs and crises and everything that goes into living a wonderful world together.

So I put that ring back on my finger. I have it on right now.



I would say to your husband, "Honey, it's important to me that you wear a wedding ring. I kind of put it up there with the importance of ME wearing a wedding ring. Can we talk about this? When can we take about 20 minutes to just focus on this one topic, so I can hear how you feel about it?"

And then take the 20 minutes, listen to him, and quit talking about it. Hear what he has to say, and then decide. Because he might say something that is worthwhile, and might change how you think about his wearing a ring. Who knows.

But take the 20 minutes to hear him out.

SB

Well said, SB.

I love the analogy of diamonds to marriage. It is true, even the biggest and flashiest of diamonds can have flaws if you look closely...and some of the smallest, most humble diamonds can be absolutely perfect yet nobody notices but the ones who wear it.

HTM

Its scary how I am at the exact same point you were. word for word you are describing my stich ( shudder)

ON one hand this is my fantasy as being the result of what I want as a result of having taken of my ring. On the other hand I am afraid this might happen and I am not sure what my response would be. I am not ready ! I dont want to say "no" to will you marry me again question but I also am not giddy with exciment ready and waiting with a yes if and when the question is popped.

Tonight, we all sat on the couch and watched So You Think You Can Dance. D17 and her friend went to bed, I got ready for bed, MrCat got up and took his shirt off, dropped it to the ground next to the couch, and went into the bedroom! I've ignored this stuff for 30 years, but now that I'm trying to improve and be aware, it's sticking out like a sore thumb.

But the issue is that the fact that he's dropping his dirty shirt on the floor, in the middle of the living room, DOESN'T OCCUR TO HIM AS SOMETHING BAD!

All his life, his mom came around behind him and picked up. She lived with us for several years; by the time she left, I felt I couldn't make him 'see' what he was doing. Just like your H doesn't 'see' what he's not thinking of.

Of course, it can change. IF they want it to. But you can't bet your whole recovery on it. I really think it's a psychological issue. Deep-seated one. FOO.

I tell D17 to clean the kitchen; I come home. I have to get her in the kitchen and show her, piece by piece, all the things in the kitchen that she DIDN'T clean up - the towel on the floor, the pan on the stove, the empty coke can, the mail, the computer cord...she just doesn't 'see' that stuff - she sees dishes in the dishwasher, and maybe the counters wiped off (around all the leftover junk) as cleaning the kitchen.

In other words, YOUR idea of something may not be HIS idea of something. It's not fair to ask him to change the way he thinks. But it IS fair to tell him how it affects you.

Here's another aspect on the rings. We've been married 28 years, together 30. We both stopped wearing our rings about 10 years in - he bent his, I didn't want to spend the money fixing it. I got too fat to wear mine.

We have a 99% probability neither of us will have an affair, and we both know it; the same probability of one of us leaving (despite what I say here). There is little need for jealousy, assigning extra weight to whether or not we wear a ring, worry that either of us will get hit on and return the attention. It seriously has not entered our attention for decades.

What I'm trying to say is the ring matters only as much as you want it to. I realize that when an affair disrupts things, it all changes. But bottom line, it IS possible to have a long-term relationship whether or not we wear rings or not.

Cat person
I agree with you there that the ring only matters as much as we want it you. I am not concerned that because he does not wear the ring it is more likely to reult in him straying.
What bothers me is not that he appears more available with out the ring. What is affecting me is that the rings were a memory and symbol of us having been married, on that day at that time in 1994. It is a comforting physical way to remind ourselves of that act and that memory. Just something to trigger the mind to happier occassion.
Now him not wearing one and me alone wearing one, in my mind triggers a painful thought of me bearing the burden of this marriage alone. So hence I had to take it off.
Now not having one on my finger triggers the pain of having lost something as evident by the bareness,indent and tan line on my finger.
So I dont know which trigger is worse, me wearing the ring alone wearing or not wearing.
Also may be only the healing of the M and R will in the end solve the ring trigger issue I dont know.

I agree that the ring is a SYMBOL of your commitment to your H, but as for making him look less available...I don't agree. My H works in a field where he cannot wear his ring for safety purposes. Sometimes he forgets to put it back on and he'll go for weeks without it on. I told him the same thing...I want people to KNOW that you are married so that they won't hit on you. He told me that he actually has seen a trend and will get hit on MORE if he's wearing his ring, than not.

I don't know if that is true, and I prefer he wear it because it is MY outward reminder of his commitment to me, but if this site has taught me anything it's this...it doesn't matter if you're wearing a ring, if you WANT to stray, you will.

HTM

One of my girl friend's H has said the same thing.

I agree with both of you I dont think a ring on the finger un of itself is either a hiderence nor a welcome inviation to stray or be hit on. I dont think the ring on the finger serves any purpose against or for a R outsite of the relationship.

In terms of the M , the ring to me serves as a trigger of our memories of our commitment and connection. There are 2 wedding rings that were purchsed an exchanged at one moment in time when we were physically together in one room sharing a mutual goal of spending our life togeher. When we are not physically together the ring is a reminder of our mate in life one we chose and continue to choose to spend our life and energy on.

Not wearing the ring does not make me forget that I am married, insted what am I saying is that wearing it gives a warm an fuzzy feeling that I am missing beacuse he is not wearing it and now I am not.

I miss wearing my rings and I hope we can come to an amicabel solution to this soon.

I took them off on Monday and communicated to DH that I have done so and my reasons why, where is explained to me that it hurt him that I did that. I also reiterated to him that I would like him to get one.
Last night (Wed) we shared our ENQs and said in there I love love it if you would "Take some time to think about and discuss a mutually acceptable solution to the ring issue. I feel very sad about being in a position of me not wearing one. "

If he does not do anything about it prior to our call with Jennifer on Friday I will bring it up with her as well.

After that on this particular issue if you think I need to re-remind him again ( read- baby him/ bully him/spoon feed him) on how important it is to me please let me know. If not I think I have done my part in this and now its up to DH to get off his (procrastinating) behind and do something about it.

In the meanwhile I continue to be sad at the loss of this symbol in our relationship.

wmf,

I think you are making a mistake. You are making the ring a hill to die on - a huge symbol of something else.

It has become the symbol of another thing - your true desire.

Follow closely. And you will see what the ring issue is really about IMHO. I have read between the lines.



You've said here that you KNOW he won't get hit on any more or less with or without the ring.

You've said the ring is a "symbol" and that NOT wearing it triggers pain for YOU. So you have purposely taken it off. I want to say that again - you have PURPOSELY TAKEN OFF YOUR RING, EVEN THOUGH THIS EXACT PROCESS TRIGGERS PAIN IN YOU.

Then, you have told your husband of the pain of NOT WEARING YOUR OWN RING.

You speak repeatedly of the "symbol" of the ring.

But in this case, the symbolism of the ring right now is not precisely limited to the course of the marriage, and all that the marriage has entailed. Right now, the symbol of the ring is very different.

It is being used to pull him into your pain. It is a symbol, yes, of how you are feeling about the marriage. You are trying to get him to look at the 14 years of marriage VIA THE RING. You are trying to get HIM to see that you are putting the marriage AWAY FROM YOU - in spite of the pain that putting it away from you is causing you - and then you are showing him the empty hand (the empty marriage) and saying to him:

FILL THIS !!!!!!

Because you are needing him to work on the marriage WITH you.
And you need him to do that, because you have felt as though you are pulling the chain alone. So in essence, you have put the tools down and are saying to him, "Get the tools, and put them on, and you will also need to put the tools back in my hand while you're at it."

This is not unexpected at your point in recovery. Because he has had his "ride", and now you want him to do some of the heavy lifting.

Except...............


You need to talk to him in a different way to do this. Because the way you are doing it, with the ring, is very painful for YOU, and for him.

You can accomplish the very same task in another way. Read the thread I posted regarding body language, specifically reading the rules on how to talk about things - and begin employing the rules when you try to talk about your relationship. You will increase the trust during intimate discussions dramatically, and he will not feel like he is trapped - which is what the ring situation does to a man.

Men don't communicate like we do. I am guilty of this crime, and once I saw what I did, we talked about what it was. And yes, I should have used my own advice, my own method. I was too trapped in anger - pain - panic - desperation. You have a chance to change it, make it right, before it goes too far.

SB

Ok I love how you cut thru the B.S. and get to the meat. I did not see it before and now that you show it to me I see how I have arrived at this point and now am using the symbol of the ring as " I am not doing this any more if you are not doing your share"

Now that I see that , please tell me how I can

Simply putting the ring back on (which I can easily do) will not erase the sentiment that I have. Also taking the ring of might have been harsh but you think letting him know last night was ?
Should I wait a reasonable amount of time before I "nicely" bring it up again. What do I do next so I dont die on this hill?

I think we are making great progress in or R and I dont want to be stubborn and go backwards but like you said I dont have it in me any more to give him a free ride either.

wmf,

So glad you asked the right questions.


How do you not die on the hill that you built?


Humbly tell him you built the hill. And why.


You see, you first need remember that your husband is not the enemy. He has all the same feelings and desires you have about your marriage, and is likely struggling with how to go about fixing the ring thing himself. Only, he KNOWS this means something completely different than what it is presented to mean.

His gut tells him that - because he has that "trapped" feeling that men get when women communicate things this way. Guys know, but they are in this box and cannot for the life of them figure out the right way to answer, what to do, or what to say in order to make it right. So what do they do? NOTHING! When trapped, they give up and wait for the woman to make the next move, in hopes that it will give them a clue as to the way out of the box.

And we women get more frustrated and angry with them. It's a vicious circle. Caused by the way we choose to make our point, and the way we choose to talk about things.


Read the body language thread, and use the communication tips I put in there. Make it a point to read the information about communicating to him - you have to wait the 15 seconds after he stops talking!!!!! Really start practicing the methods, because they are research driven, and they work.

When you think you understand the ideas of HOW to go about having the conversation with him, so it does not turn into a LB fest, tell him that you want to have a calm talk about the ring thing. Tell him that you have a few things to say first, and then will give him the floor. The time you two speak on the issue really needs to be limited to 20 minutes, no more. And get the body language down, girl.

The few things you have to say, and you only get 5 minutes - so practice what you have to say, keep it pithy, and stay on point:

1. You apologize for making the ring thing such a huge issue, and explain that you have given it a great deal of thought.
2. Explain that you understand that the ring is really a symbol of more than you first thought. It has become a symbol of the marriage, and that by taking it off you have been trying to show him that you are struggling with it - that you need his help to put your marriage together with you again.
3. Explain that your thoughts have led you to know that what you need are some ideas of ways he can show you OUTWARD signs of his working on the marriage, and ask him what HE thinks are OUTWARD signs that he has been working on the marriage.
4. Ask him if he would consider wearing a ring and helping you work toward wearing your ring again.

Ask for his response.

Then, SHUT UP. No matter what your desire is to say anything, you sit there and do not speak. You MUST allow him time to gather his response, and you MUST wait him out.

Too often, we jump in and just keep talking - making OUR point, and men feel overwhelmed.

He will get your point. He already HAS your point. This is the HEALING time.

Point #3 above is really for YOU to understand that he has been working on the marriage. Your focus has been so much on your own pain, your own changes, your own work, that you probably have not looked much into what he has been doing. And you probably haven't asked him this question. It's important to understand what the spouse thinks he is doing - because he might be doing things he believes ARE HELPFUL, but they may be missing the mark in terms of YOUR NEEDS. Get it? You just aren't seeing what he's doing because he is throwing knuckle balls and you need curve balls.


Once he has said what he has to say:

DO NOT ARGUE. Let him say his points, and LISTEN!!! At the end of his statements, say, "Thank you so much for talking to me. I want to think about what you've said, and I appreciate your point of view. Let's go and get some (cookies, tea, whatever!)"

AND BE DONE FOR NOW.

See, the point here is to allow him to just say it, you listen, and it is NOT a marathon.

If he asks a question during his speaking time, you answer with very short response, and then return the floor to him - "It's really your time to talk. I need to hear your thoughts, and I am enjoying listening to what you are saying."


Afterward, make the conversation light, and allow it to just "be". Take time much later to reflect on what he said. Then, go back to him and say you have thought about what he said, and ask to talk again. Use the same tactics as before (you will find he will be much more open this time!). State what you have to say, and open the floor to him, etc. Only this time, you get into a little more conversation, because he's more open, and you're calmer. Keep with the time limit, though. NO MARATHONS.

You are using POJA, and the communication techniques. It works hand in hand.


With practice, you will notice that the talks ultimately are very efficient, each of you listen, and you are able to move into a phase where you can have back-and-forth without emotional craziness. Where the conversations are true listening and hearing, and each of you feel very comfortable saying what's on your mind. No more anxiety ridden marathons.


And the talks - the rules - somehow start carrying over into normal stuff. You begin to be a much better listener, and he becomes (magically) a much better talker.

Try it.

But the hill? It starts by telling him that you recognize where you went off track.

SB

I dont want to do all this work to get off the hill.
The hill is high and makes me feel tall.
( wah wah wah wah )

Ok now that I am done being childish about this I would like to say that I am very appreciative of your insight and I think I will re- read your post another 4-5 times ( already did 3-4) times and try to come up with a good plan. I put my rings back on and now I have about 3 hrs before H comes home to figure out how I am going to explain to him why I walked up and now down the hill.

I think I will type up what I plan to say and then unromantic as it is I wil read it out to him. This way I know what I am saying is well thought out and limited to the time I want to allocate to get my point across. The hard part will be not to add to what I have written on the fly.
So in the note I plan on covering :
1) Explaining to him what I have now uncovered as my true feelings behind taking the ring off ie: wanting us both to do the work in this M and Recovery. I will accumulate all the things that I have noticed that he is doing towards our recovery and list them and ask him to point out any other visible ways that he has been working on "us" that I overlooked.
2) Letting him know that I have put the rings back on beacuse for me they symbolize a happy reminder of our wedding and commitment to each other and I am happy to be reminded of that.
3) I would love to continue the discussion of somehow connecting his new ring (when ever he gets one) to my old ring so that I dont feel they are seperate and disjointed. Either by us both getting new ones or some other form of happy reconnecting ( dont know the answer yet so we need more discussion on ways how to do this.)

FYI the reason I put them back on is I dont need his help in putting them back on. I am happy to be commited to our marriage and since the ring to me symbolises my commitment I am glad I am wearing it again.

I am overwhelmend by gratitute towards you for your help and there are no words to convey it appropriately other than "Thank you" Schoolbus. I hope you feel the warmth that they are said with.

SB

Ok I typed up the letter of what I wanted to say. are you aroud so I can post it here and get your feedback.
I will handwrite it out when I have tweaked it but would love your creative input if you are up for it.

wmf - Take this for what it is worth, which may not be much. It is no way advice, just a perspective of a WH.

In our situation my wife gave me her ring back sometime after the first Dday. It did hurt some because I saw it as her sign of giving up. And since for all practical purpose I had to it all seemed pointless.

Then I gave it back to her in Dec. Made a big deal of it. Mistake as I had not solidified NC. The mistake was not having NC solidifed not giving the ring back. That being said when it all went south again she gave me her ring again. I stopped wearing mine when she gave hers back on both occasions. While seperated I gave her ring to her and told her she could do what she wanted as it had no meaning to me. If we got back together it would not be with that ring. I still don't want her to wear hers. It no longer discourages me, but shows me, and reminds me I have work to do to win her back. Although I know she loves me I still want to win her back. I know that probably makes no sense. But it does in my mind.

I actually put my ring back on Sunday. I felt I needed to show a commitment, but as much as anything, was to remind me I am married. As while we were seperated, I took on more of a single person attitude. No it did not stop me from going outside the marriage. But I think it can help in keeping someone else from speaking how they truely feel that gets an A started. We will never know how many A's are never started because of a ring, but I bet it is many.

Anyways as I said take all of this for what it is worth. No advice, just a perspective. Certainly not trying to add or take away from what SB says, as she has such a way of communicating she has helped us through posts that were not even to us.
She has me working on a letter to my oldest daughter.

Not2L8
Thanks for your perspective , atleast I have some onfo on how a WH might look at the taking off the ring by a BS.


From my point of view, that ring becoming meanigless to me = all the years prior to that becoming meaninless too. So I am not ready to give up my old ring yet. My H and I did not go thru a seperation period so I am not sure how that changes ones feelings at that point.


For now I wrote the letter to DH and gave it to him last night, I listed all the things I notice he is doing towards helping us, explained to him why I took of the rings and why i put them back. I reedited it and took out any thing remotely negative. I had originally added a few items of how he can additionally help but at the last minute omitted them.
So gave the note at dinner, H smiled and was happy that I had my rings on , no follow up conversation other than he said he was happy that I removed the ring as a "huge issue" and that he was happy that I was recoganizing all the things he was doing.

I was hoping for a more substantial reaction and discussion but I am learning not to be a drama queen about everything. So I have my rings back on I am no longer sad that I am not wearing them. The issue of his ring still continues but its his decision to make not mine. He did stop at a local jewler with me after dinner to get himself sized and looked at a few ring options (so progress).

I think that is nice thought to work with. I love my H dearly and I want to be with him but when he does any small act to win me back it makes the journey much more rewarding and increases my happiness (back to Knight in shining armour female fantasy). Have you shared that feeling with your W ?

"From my point of view, that ring becoming meanigless to me = all the years prior to that becoming meaninless too."

I had not thought of it this way. I am going to ask my wife how she feels. She may share your perspective.

"Have you shared that feeling with your W ?"

Not that bluntly. I am horrible with that. I tend to give to many hints and not be straight forward in that regard. Thus she did not know how I truely felt pre A. Totally my fault. As TST pointed out to me. I tend to overanalyze how things will be taken and if I say too much then the changes are not real. So I still struggle with how to tell her I want to be able to win her back. I think as much as women want the knight in shining armor, that men want to be that. Anyways, still not sure how to go about that yet.

"He did stop at a local jewler with me after dinner to get himself sized and looked at a few ring options (so progress)."
Did you give him Kudos for doing this? I know we WH don't deserve kudos but when we get them boy does it help to stay the course at this point. Actually thinking about that a bit more, it is actually just the acknowledment that we are making progress or that our efforts are recognized. I know you did that with the letter, so great job with that.

Ring update.

Had a discussion witH jennifer last night about ring, and she "coached " on me needing to learn the art of negotiation without Lbs. Much like SBs recomendations of how to communicte body language etc.
So last night after the call we ended up talking about the ring and I "really listened" to DHs point of view on the rings and I think we have a plan. He will get an identical replacemnt to his current ring simply because the current one does not fit. I alreday have a replacemnet to my original (gotten 10 years ago) because mine did not fit. We will preserve both originals as they are for memory sake.

If at a later time we decide that we need to symbolize our "new relationship" in any way then we can have a seperate discussion about that at a later time. I dont know if I need to or want to at do anything new at all, but if that need/desire/fantasy keeps rising then we will be do something about it.

In the meatime once DH gets his "correct size ring" the ring issue is closed.
1 down 999 to go

wmf,

I AM SO SO SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!


That hill?

Smooth, flat land.


I think you just made about a year's worth of progress in one evening with that ring event.

Because you showed your husband a huge change in you.

And what happened?

HE MOVED FORWARD. You didn't have to ask. You didn't have to nag.

He just went to the jewelry store, on his own.


Now isn't that amazing?


And the biggest bonus here? You have shown him soooooo much about YOU.

He now sees you very differently.

He sees you as someone who:

Can change
Can listen
Can apologize
Can move forward
Can negotiate calmly
Can accept her own mistakes
Can realign her thoughts
Can reason through emotional problems and responses


And his response to YOUR positive moves? HE CHANGED HIS MIND, AND HE WENT TO THE JEWELRY STORE.

And wasted NO TIME DOING IT, either.


Now, I need you to do something for yourself, for the two of you.


Use the same conversational "rules", only to discuss something FUN.

Talk about the three very best things that have ever happened to you in your lives. He goes first.

Only, don't tell him you are using the rules. Just use them.


SB

Thanks for your positive words sb


Ok will try the pleasent talk tonight and see if I see the changes in me that you see and you think he sees.

wmf,

I see them.


Look at what you did!


You listened to me. You listened to him. You ARE a listener!

You apologized. You ARE humble!

You changed what you had done. You ARE able to reverse course!

You thought about why you did what you did. You ARE able to evaluate your emotions.

You decided on a way to correct the course of action, and carried it out. You ARE able to fix things in a mature way!

Your actions resulted in your husband's jewelry store trip. You ARE able to effect change in your marriage, in a way that is gentle and mature, without fighting or drama.


You have successfully implemented MB concepts, wmf. You did what you thought about, did it well, and the end result was that your husband is looking for a ring.

That is exactly the whole idea. Getting results, without angst, and with calm, loving communication.


You will really enjoy the conversation. And watch how you get lost in your husband's voice. And how intimacy grows tonight.


SB

Schoolbus

Please stop by and SMACK me again. I completely ruined last night.
Started out with several triggers last evening and was unable to speak with H about them. When there are triggers sometimes they come and leave, other times like last night they swirl and srwil and loom and loom until the hole is so deep that I cant dig myself out of it.
Well I crawled into a hole and kept my H at bay from conversation as long as I could (read alienating him). Then at a later point went into full blown crying and revealing the pain and wanting him to take it all away without giving him any indiaction of how he can do that.
As you can imagine things went down hill eneded with marathon talk session that resolved nothing other than create complete exhaustion on both our parts.
So I am Sorry I did that. I just know that when I get into that triggerd hole I dont always know how to get out of it before all the escape hatches are closed. Part of my keeping him at bay involves not wanting him to see all my pain and think " oh here we go again she will never forget all of this".

Today I am trying not be beat my self up too much for having done that and undone the progress that I had just made.

Just working on not falling into a new hole today and making sure there is no reapeat of last night.

Any input on how to prevent the triggers from swallowing up my brain to the point that there is so much anger and so much pain that I dont care any more about the "healthy recovery process".

WMF...sorry for this but I'm desperate...

Mini T/J...

Schoolbus, would you be willing to take a look at the recent events on my thread? I am stuck and need advice on how to proceed.

Thanks!

HTM

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2027759#Post2027759

End T/J

Smack, thud...

I'm not Schoolbus but you wanted a smack.

Triggers are nasty things. You can go without them and then out of no where.

From speaking with my H, his triggers came when he wasn't feel safe (my term, not his) and/or tired.

There was a thread a week ago about overcoming triggers. I didn't look at it much but I believe that result was time.

You need TIME.

AND

Moving forward in a new relationship.

ACTION, whether by you or your H, to move your relationship in a positive direction.

Before you triggered, what where you doing? Where were you? How were you feeling?

Thanks for the smack , I needed/deserved that.
I am doing better cause yesterday I did not allow myself to throw another day away, so I made sure I did all I could to stay on track.

Triggers are a wierd thing. They come and go several times a day. My H has indicated to me to let him know when I have a trigger becasue it changes my body language and attitude and it would helpful for him , if he knew the cause of that. Wether it was somethgin he did or was it a blast from the past. I find that I am having a difficutlt time fessing up to him about the triggers because if he sees how often they are they may feel hopeless . So I struggle with the trigger and then the response to it

Yesterday was Ok. Many triggers but did things to snap me out and keep me busy. Did have a mini conversation with H at night but mostly just focsed on the fact that it will take me time to feel like my hear is healed. I let him know I feel good about the progress of the R, but there is a lot of unhappiness in me cause my heart is broken and it will take me a while to feel like it has mended.

Today was good, snuck out to yoga this morning that helped alot. Some triggers but nothing major. ( so far )

Actually before triggers on that day , it was a great day we did things around the house and generally was a happy day. NO H did not do anything to trigger it, infact he went to the grocery in th emorning and came with a bunch on flowers which was very sweet. The thoughts in my head need very littel input. Come to think of it there was a specific start. some in our family recently got divorced ( last year) and now is marrying their OW and I becgan to think of the impact on their grown kids and...... I can blame my trigger on that news but I cant blame my response and me proceeding to go down the unproductive marathon talk part on anyone else but me.

Sorry if I implied I thought your H did something to cause the trigger. That was not my intention.

What I wanted to say, according to my H, he triggered very badly when other things weren't right (which is why I used the word safe).

For example, I was working late and didn't call on my office phone. Instead I would use my cell phone to speed dial. It would come up on my cell and hard to verify that I was working late, I could have been untruthful.

After realizing this I would always call from my office to apologize if working late and tell him I would call again when I was shutting down.

Today, I still call but rarely work late. I come to work earlier instead, that is easier for us.

If I need to work late, I call from the office phone. After shutting down I call from my cell while I'm walking out but we are in a different place than when he would trigger.

There is trust again.

But I must admit that I'll call as soon as I lock the door and I assume he can hear the elevator and such. It's just my way to keep the comfortable level there.

Make sense?

I asked the questions to see if you were tired, the kids were being naughty, or other things that added to your pile and made you more vulnerable to trigger (mentally tired).


Look here, your H wants to KNOW and to HELP you.

You don't want to be doing ALL the work.

YOU are not allowing your H to HELP you here.

If its too difficult to tell him at the time.

Write it down as it is happening.

SHARE with him later.

Set that darn timer when you are going to discuss things.

When the timer goes off you are DONE for the night and together you and your H will do something fun.

Play a card game.

Watch a comedy sitcom.

Go get a treat.


When do the kids go back to school?

Then you can go back to your normal yoga schedule.

Until then, can you make two or three times a week like this morning.

Taking care of YOURSELF is very important too.

Hang in there. You are doing good. Let your H in to help you.

SB,

I wanted you to know this post helped me also. Lots like she and I are in the same beginning stage and just wanting so much to move forward. You wonder if the pain, anger and images ever stop or lessen at this point. Thanks for the hope.

WMF,

Thanks for your posts on my thread. I guess no matter where we are in recovery, we can always use some encouragement, eh?

Triggers are so tricky. I think jlr is right for me as well...I trigger more when things aren't going well. Maybe I have had a couple of evenings where H has been a little less open or more grouchy and I of course immediately fear the worst. Then something will happen that might have been easy to brush off before, but all of a sudden the pain is right there again.

I talk with H about these triggers. Not as a punishment or guilt trip, but because it is part of my agreement with H to be open and honest about my emotions. Often I feel better after talking with him. He doesn't necessarily dismiss my trigger as silly, but he helps to talk me out of it (if that makes sense). He doesn't negate it...just reminds me that I am safe.

It helps.

HTM

Did not mean to make you defensive. If ther was any anger in my statement it was directed solely at myself for letting thr triggers kick in even thou H did nothing to instigate the. He has been working from home yeasterday and today so it has been nice seeing him around.
Its kind of a tough day for me today, been triggering since last night and cant sahke it. Yesterday I started painting th ebedrrom like I have been thinking about for weeks now. So thats been a soothing but exhausting distraction. 1 wall done 3 more to go.


Well his help is really not helping me. Even since Jennifer told me that he would like me to tell him anout the triggers I have been paying closer attention to when I trigger and its a lot. May be 10-15 times a day. Usually small thoughst that come and go before they can build roots in my head. Other times they are just swirling in a neverending tornado in my head. Today is tornado day and I cant seem to make it go away.

I know exactly what you mean ( about talking me out of it). MY H does that too and sometimes its a good thing and other timnes I feel like they are being dismissed.
Its a tricky balance and I feel like it would be better if he was just filling me with so much love and affcetion that they never came up.

There was no anger, I was concerned that it sounded like I was blaming your H for doing something. And didn't mean to sound defensive either, just wanted to apologize if my words didn't match my meaning. We're all good.


OK, what is he doing that is not helping you?

What can he do that will help you?

Good question.
Well Him wanting to know that its a trigger and not a response to somethign he did ot did not do is a [color:#990000]good thing for him[/color] as I guess it gives him insite into what is going on in my head.
That being said, I guess my twisted mind thinks that if I didnot tell him about the trigger then he is not required to do anything about it. But if I tell him that the pain has just resurfaced, I guess I need him to take "extraordinary precautions" to make me feel better. Affection , conversation what ever it takes at that moment to help me get thru.
His M.O. so far has been hug- well it will take time - hug well atleast you know its not happening in the present ( ie its past pain that I caused you)- hug and a look of relief on his face well atleast she is not mad at me for something I did not did or did not to today.

Alongside all of this from his statements towards me I think he is appreciative of my attempts at meeting his needs. He constantly tells me that he sees how much attention and effort I am putting towards making him happy. I am starting to realize that I dont seem to say those same words back to him. I say I love him but I dont find myself saying "you make me happy" a lot . There are moments that I say it and most of those are preceded by conversation in which we agree on a future couse of action.
So I am happy at the promise of happiness, just loosing a little faith and patience today.

Also I guess I have gotten off tack of my own recovery. I am starting to see how my statements above reflect my need for my H to help me heal. I have to go back to what I did in the early days after D day where I just had to focus of what I could do to make myself happy . I go to bed most nights with one recurring thought before I go to sleep. He broke My heart and I dont know how to mend it.
Any ideas on how to mend a broken heart

http://www.amazon.com/How-Mend-Your...mp;s=books&qid=1217956501&sr=8-1

I think that the only way to mend a broken heart is time. Sucks...I know.

As for feeling like if you tell H about your triggers that he needs to "fix" it...I had that same problem. I ended up telling H in advance "I do not need you to do anything, I just want you to know that I'm feeling...." That way, H understands exactly what the reason is for my telling him.

It's worked for us.

HTM

Thanks intovert, I put the book in my shopping cart. It is out of stock currently at Amazon. I guess there are a lot of broken souls out there right now. It looks like a good book though.

wmf,

Sorry I've been gone a couple of days. My friends down the street have had some difficult days, and I have been helping them out.

Triggers. Yeah. BTDT.

Here is what you need to do. First, you recognize them as what they are:

1. Triggers are not happening now, they are REMINDERS of previous events.
2. Triggers can be attributed to a variety of events in the physical or emotional world (for example, movies, places, smells, sounds).
3. Triggers are the result of a MENTAL/COGNITIVE connection and do not necessarily HAVE to lead to an emotional response.


Please note number 3.

Understanding the three concepts about triggers will actually help you control your response to them. I used these ideas to help me (still do).

Let's say I am triggered by a place. I will use my real-world trigger, which is a road in town.

I drive into town to go to Office Depot. I turn onto the street and immediately begin to trigger (#1) because I am reminded that OW lives on the same road (#2). The place has given me the reminder of the affair, and the connection has been made to the emotions - all of them!!! - of the d-day, and the fallout of the affair, right?

Now, here's where #3 comes into play.

I say to myself:

"This is a trip to Office Depot. The affair happened X number of months ago, and this is now my personal RECLAMATION of this place in town. This activity is now for the purpose of office supply shopping, and NOT for affair-related memories or emotions - PERIOD. I am not emotionally attached at this time, this is office supply time."

I repeat this as much as I need to, in order to tell my brain that this is office supply time, and to reclaim the place and this area of the road. I repeat it calmly, and with a business-like manner. I might even prepare myself in advance, and do this trip with the expressed purpose of reclamation of the triggering place.


If a trigger blindsides me, I can still use the self-talk. I can stop, and tell myself that the affair took place back at another point in time. I can also tell myself that I do recognize the emotion that is being triggered is "X", but that it is not necessary at this time to fully extend myself into that emotion. To recognize the triggering of that emotion is enough, to know it is there is enough, but to immerse myself in it and to empathize with that feeling right now is NOT NEEDED. I also tell myself that I will, in fact, allow myself time at a specific time later to "experience" the feeling (and I say the time!).

Believe it or not, this has worked.


Oh. Here is your 2X4. NO MORE MARATHONS. You are to sit in the corner for that, and have after-school detention, young lady!

(Feel better?)

Now you have seen the difference, again, between the unproductive marathon and the shorter productive talks. Go with the short ones, girl. Pace yourself.

Hey - your husband sounds like he is trying. Sure, he wants to know that HE didn't do something to make you hurt! My H is the same way when he knows I'm in pain. He wants to, needs to know what to do to help you. If his instinct is to just hug you, then let him. Let him help fill you up. It will take a lot of hugs to do that, so let him make those deposits.

I like that he brought you flowers. He is trying, in little ways. It sounds like he just isn't sure what to do, but he wants to. I think if he had a giant band-aid for your heart, he would put it there.

Give yourself some time. It's okay to tell him that it hurts. Because if you try to sweep this under the rug, your resentment will peel this marriage apart in another way.

Keep trucking. You are doing very well. I promise - even though you think you aren't, you ARE.

SB

Sorry for the T/J, SB could you post the 3 facts to my thread for my future reference?

thanking you in advance.
Lil

I love point number 3 where it sok to have the trigger and to recoganize that no response is needed. I am going to have to work on that , when I trigger to just be still and not do anythign about nor let it distract me from the origianl path I was on before it came on.

Like I said early on I am lucky I was able to connect with such a wonderful person. Inside he genuinely is a good guy ( I guess most people are) full of care and love. It just makes it that much harder to deal with the fact that "His " actions caused such a wound that I even need a bandaid in the first place.

I sense that he is feeling a lot of remorse for the pain that his A caused. He really belived that he would be able to shield me from the pain of it. That he and OW would be able to continue a "secret relationship" until he was able to seperate from me and he would connect with her after our D so as to not cause me or the kids pain. I hop that now even he can see how un-realistic that plan was, there were numerous international calls a day. Hotel bill that he put on our joint credit card when she flew here to be with him after his business trip. I handle the finances so all the bills go thru me DUH!
Of couse all of these bill came after D day so they were not part of my "suspisions" but they still exist and I have to keep telling myself it is in the past. when I come across our current phone or CC bill there is a trigger but I have to keep using a version of your point 3 that says to me " I already know about the bill" been there paid that one 3 months ago. This is a new bill has nothing to do with the A .

Even my thick head can see now that the marathons are not helpful or good in ANY WAY. The trick is am I smart enough to stop one before it happnes. I sure I am going to try my darndest.


Thanks those are valuable words to me to hear because its hard to gauge your own progress when you are the one stuck in the maze. I apppreciate you continuing to look into my maze of recovery and helping me find my way out.

Triggers are what get me too. Sometimes I can stop the domino effect and sometimes I just can't. I start breathing heavy and fast and away I go. The when it's over I come down crying and go into an overwhelming sadness. My H just doesn't get it, nor can he handle it.

Sometimes I just cannot believe he did it. I just can't believe it. But he did, it's reality.

The fallout things afterward, like the bills, come along in trickles which I hated.

I found little things on the computer, and then there would be a round of questioning.

I learned about the marathons and developed the "rules" out of necessity.

Because I work in communication and language, it was a natural outcropping from my job. I just knew that the marathons were damaging US, and that he could not take it. The wedge that they were causing were making the marriage an unhappy place

and I wanted that marriage to be a happy place!


So the marathons had to change.


The rules were developed because I had to change.

Reading on MB made me understand that so many other women (and a few men) were very much like me, in the marathon sense. I couldn't believe how many other BS's spent nights in marathon talks.

And the body language, well, I just knew that stuff, from work and college, etc.


Follow the rules. I use them in our general conversations now. I've completely changed how I talk with him, and he talks so much now, well, sometimes I sort of want him to shush.

Not really, the sound of his voice makes me happy!

I get the idea of the triggers, and how they overwhelm you. I would sometimes sit and wallow in the thoughts of the affair. At times, I would just want to think about it, and that's all I would want to do - focus only on the affair. So one of the things I did was to make sure that I had time scheduled in my day in order to do that, so that I could allow for this time, knowing that my brain needed "affair processing time". I think the trauma is overwhelming, and in order to get my mind wrapped around it, I had to actually schedule time for that thought process. Once I did that, it really did reduce a lot of the sudden worry I was experiencing at other times during the day - I could tell myself, "SB, you can think about this at 630, because you have that scheduled later, remember." And I would, and it really did help me.

As for letting H help? He did, and he wanted to. Most of the time I didn't tell him specific details about why I was hurting. He didn't need to know EXACTLY why - did he? He knew it was the affair pain. So I would say, "I'm having a rough time right now," and he would stop whatever and I would lean into him and he would hold me for whatever time I needed. No need to talk most of the time, if I didn't need to. Sometimes, if I needed to, I might say, "Later on, could we talk about X, just X, for 15 minutes only?"

And he KNEW I WOULD TALK ONLY FOR 15 MINUTES BECAUSE I USED THE RULES!!!!!!

See, once you establish the trust by using the rules, set the timer, and stick with it two or three times, he will talk, and will support you.

It works, because YOU CHANGE.

And I did change. Over time, he did change, too.


Our marriage has changed soooooooo much.


Wow. That's a long post, but worth it.
I feel better, anyway!
SB

My brain gets it but at the same time I can also see how easily we women can get caught up with turing the converstaion into a marathon. I for one am discoveing that the reason I end up extending the conversation is for 2 reasons
1) I am a talker ( bad habit need to change that )
2) I am looking for a resolution so I am unable to terminate the conversation until I feel we have come to some sort of solution and closure.
And obviously there is no resolution/closure to this problem that can be brought about by any single converstion. Once I can convince my self of that (especially during a discussion) I think I will be able to notice when I am staying "too long" in a converstaion for the wrong reasons and be able to walk away from it.

Yep sound good to me. While I am doing that can I also take a needle and continuoulsy poke myself so there is a physical wound as well as emotional one. LOL
Its hard for me to get away from that one too. I find that the opposite works for me. I made alist of my pursuit of happiness whihc is a list about 10 or so things that I gave a lot of thought on what tasks can I do that will make me happy. Examples ,
1) go to a Yoga class
2) listening to music
3) call and chat or hang out with GF.
and so on
So when I feel low or I know I need to refocus, I say to myself I can do anything that is predefined on my list. Not allowed to do anything other than that. So double bonus, one distraction from A talk and second just did something that I know is guranteed to make me happy so end result Happiness Sometimes it works sometimes it does not, but I am trying.

All I know at this point is that I as a human being will recover from this ordeal. I will not allow myself to be defeated by this pain and my past mistakes. Whether or not my R and M will survive remains to be seen and 50% of that depends on me and 50% of that depends on DH.

I was reading the How to survive an Affair last night and somthing really stuck with me . The 4 reasons for why plan A. Specifically reason 4 wherein if plan A falis then if nothing else after I have deposited many units into Dh's love bank and he is overdrawn by a lot, atleast the BS will be at peace with having no love left for the WS, and less pain at the inevitable D. I hope that it is not the ultimate result in our stich but I can see how there can be peace and comfort in that. In a twisetd way it actually makes me feel more positive(I know it does not sound like it) and reduces my panic to make it work at all costs or else..... I just keep doing my part and if it works then great, I will have a wonderful relationship with a wonderful man . If we cant show each other love and care inspite of focusing on it then ke sera sera.

Those words keep playing in my head all the time. I know its hard to accept that He did that to me too. Every time I post I am so hurt and resistant to using the term "he had an A" as if me syaing or not saying it will change it. I am almost looking to soften the impact of what he did by trying to come up with a new name for it. But you know that there isint. My H did have an A , just like every other common WH, nothing special or soft about it. He had one and it hurts me. Once I begin to accept that I think I will truly be heading into recovery cause then I will be past the "acceptance " phase. Whats next Anger, Denial, Depression - I forget what the order is LOL

I feel the same way about the "talks" - I also was looking for some kind of ANSWER as to WHY he would do something to hurt so many people? I'm sorry I just didn't get it....Didn't you think about this... didn't you think about that.... how could you go into a married womans house and have sex with her....what's wrong with you? I wanted a single answer for some kind of closure and you are right there isn't one.

After one of our marathon talks I will QUOTE what my husband said to me "You are looking for some kind of psychological answer as to what happened, reading all these books you read. There IS NO psychological answer. I did it!!!!! I wanted to do it!!! I did it for almost a year!!! I did it!!! There is no excuse. I am a selfish B****** who went after a marrried woman knowing it was wrong, knowing it would hurt people and I didn't care. I made a fool of myself and I live with that everyday. I don't need YOU reminding me.

Well he's sorry now, after all the destruction. It's hard to understand a persons thinking, that they are so needy and shallow, it's pathetic.

I'm so glad I found this board. I sware I thought I was going crazy there for a while. I can't believe so many people go through this on a daily basis.

Even though we BS's dont want to see it that way I would like to say that in some way what your H is saying progress in his/your recovery. It shows that HE is ready to accept for himself what he did was wrong. In the end isnt that the first goal, for the WS to recoganize what they did was wrong and hurtful and not completey blame the BS for their affair.
That being said no amount of apology from him can take away the pain that my H caused me by having an A and no amount of me continuously reminding him of his mistake and seeing his remorse will make it better.

So you and I both have to figure out how many times and how many marathon sessions we are going to need our H's to acknowledge that they realise their A was wrong before we can move on to the next issue.
I for one feel like I have had more marthons than I want to and just cannot bear the thought of having even one more.

May be I can get him to tape his words on camera and just watch them over and over when I feel the urge to see him express remorse, LOL

Luv and WMF,

I just love the two of you!

I can see myself in both of you - it is like looking back to 2006, and seeing a movie of the thoughts and tears and then knowing this:


THERE IS HOPE.

See, I was exactly where the two of you are, and heard my H say nearly the same thing!

"I don't know what I was thinking. I was selfish! I was stupid! I didn't plan for you to ever find out! It wasn't meant for this to happen and I was a stupid bast*&*&^*&!!!"


There is no answer to the question, "WHY?"

I can save you both the time. I read all the books, searched the internet, asked the oldest people I know. There is no answer.

It is what it is.



When I post to you two, I ask myself, "What did I most need to hear? What did I want to KNOW?????"

I wanted to know that what I was going through was normal. And what I wanted to know was - what to expect next.


At around six months after d-day, I got mad. I was really mad because I thought my H wasn't doing his share of the work, and in reality, he wasn't. He wouldn't read the books, and wouldn't really talk to me about how to recover. He was embarrassed and ashamed of what he had done. He wanted to help me, but he didn't want to bring up the affair, because all I did was cry when I talked about it.

He mistook the fact that I cried for "increasing" my pain.

I had to explain very carefully that it was virtually IMPOSSIBLE to increase my pain. That I woke up with it, went to sleep with it, dreamed it, walked it, and lived it.

Talking about the affair, more importantly, talking about IMPROVING THE MARRIAGE, was what gave me HOPE. It was the most important focus I had in life - and he needed to help me have that hope. The only thing in the world I needed from him was to focus on giving me that hope, and his sacrifice in the process was to swallow his embarrassment and talk US through it all.

To also understand that *I* had embarrassment about it all, too.


That was the topic on one of the "talks" that made perhaps the most difference in our progress.


Maybe when you reach the point of not talking about the "affair" so much, and focusing on talking about THE MARRIAGE, AND IMPROVING IT TOGETHER, you can help your husbands move forward. And in the process, help yourselves, too.

I hope this post helps you both.

SB

I'm right there right now. There may be other things going on and I am keeping my eyes and ears open to any suspicious behavior, but that is EXACTLY what I am feeling right now.


This is something that I haven't been able to explain to my H. We don't marathon quite as much as we used to...I realized awhile ago that I was looking for the answer and there wasn't one that was ever going to satisfy me. It took a LOT of marathons and coming out at the other end feeling no more satisfied than when we started.

My H has been slow to recognize that he HAS to spearhead some of recovery or it won't happen...and he is recognizing that if he doesn't step up, that he risks losing our relationship for good.

I think we will all ride it out. At least out Hs are trying...even if they aren't completely succeeding yet.

HTM

One issue the BS has to understand is that the WS is NOT ON THE SAME TIMELINE in the recovery process.

The timelines are different for the betrayed than for the wayward, and the joint recovery of the marriage is also on a somewhat different timeline of its own.

There are so many factors that can keep the two spouses on different timelines.

How was the affair discovered, how long did it last, how was it broken up, what was the attitude of the wayward when the affair was discovered, what is the status of no-contact, etc.?

The fact that the wayward takes more time to "get on board" the recovery wagon isn't a surprise to me at all. For some reason, that is just a typical trend that I have seen. It takes them awhile to really gear up. I think it has to do with the fact that they are working on personal recovery - they have so much to deal with, if you think about it.

They have just nuked the life of the person they love more than anyone else in the world.

And now, they have to deal with it. They themselves cannot believe they did this. They absolutely cannot believe it, even though they did it, lived it, and watched themselves do it.

Now, they are watching themselves pick up the pieces after the bomb.

And trying to figure out what the he// they did, and why.

Trying to explain it all.


Only...........

they know they can't, because they can't even believe it themselves.


So their timeline is WAY different than the BS timeline, because they are in shock, too.

FWIW.


SB

This is a wise one helping you along.

SB, you are the Mr. Miyagi of the MB world.

WMF, how's the timer working for you?

jlr,

I have found peace.


Thanks. I am honored to be thought of as equivalent to Mr. Miyagi!

I have worked very hard this summer to get to a place of peace with this event in my life, with all the events of my life.



I am there.


It is good to feel this way.



I wanted to let everyone know that I have out of town guests coming over the next few days, so if I am off the boards for a bit, don't worry - I'm entertaining!

SB

All this has been so helpful to me. Thank you so much. We TRIED THE 30 MINUTE LIMIT TALK LAST NIGHT - no marathon and I didn't bring it up ALL day until then. And IT WORKS much better. He felt less stressed and said it was a good plan for the future. SB you are right we are on different time lines for recovery. And I DO understand that he is hurting too. Hy H also does little of his share, but is doing something.

Since he still works with her, he has to report every single time he sees her, and he is not allowed to speak to her. If she speaks to him, or even makes eye contact he has to tell me. I KNOW this really SUCKS for now but he is actively looking for a job transfer within his company. But for now, unless I want to financially distroy us TOO, I have to TRY very hard to be patient.

The OW was NO BEAUTY, I was shocked. She was just "there everyday" someone convenient and someone to meet the 2 of his top 5 emotional needs I wasn't meeting. She WORSHIPED the ground he walked on. Talked on the phone with her from early in the morning until into the morning, 300-500 phone calls and text messages per month. I know after so much reading it was an addition and it was FANTASY LAND with no stress, a carefree relationship. I DO understand more after reading but it still mkaes me sick.

Most of the A I read about start out as emotional then led to Sex, his started out as sex and let to emotional. Just to know your husband told someone else HE LOVED THEM, rips your heart to peices.
Anyway, hoping for a good weekend. Hanging in there.
Hanging in there.

And I love that you keep reminding me that there is hope when I waver in my belief of it

I think I am getting there. I have less and less urge to understand why and look for an answer. My focus seems to be shifting to making sure that he and I both understand how we can prevent this from happening to us again.
For my part I know having been a BS now and seen the impact of the pain that it causes to a BS I could NEVER be a WW now. Not to say that I was planning on ever being one but before I learned of the intensity of the pain and destruction it causes in a marriage I feel any one can be succusptible to going down that path when a selfish oppurtunity presents itself. Now having witnessed firsthand the impact if I have leaned nothing else I have learned this :
1) An A does not solve anything
2) An A causes more pain and destruction for the BS than any other situation I can imagine.
3) Recovery from an A is HARD
4) The WS pays a huge price for the relatively small amount of "happiness" in the bubble of an A , by having to watch the BS suffer and feel enormous guilt and shame for their part in it.
5) If the WS leaves the M and decides to make a go of it with OP then only 3% of those relationships survie, not great odds of finding long term happiness with OP.

Its unfortunate that this learning comes after an A and not before. I think if my DH absorbed some of the same info then the chances that he might go down that path again are slim.



Funny last night thats what my H tried to conevy to me as calmly as he could. I think when I can do that not let the thoughts of an A occupy my mind all day long then I know I have made progress. Or even better if I can learn to ignore those thoughts and change my focus to other things that is great too until the thoughts stop ocuuring natrually.
Obvioulsy I must be "getting something " by allowing the thoughts to stay front and formost in my mind all the time. I HAVE TO END MY OWN PITY PARTY ( woe is me) and start focuing on all the good things in my life and start "getting comfortable" with the notion that my life is good.

Hi Jlr
Have not seen you here in days, nice to see you again.

Fine you got me, I have still not started to impose the timer rule on myslef. I am a bad bad student !! I am standing the corner for now.

I promise the next time we have a talk I will try and it and see if it helps. I am such a talker and talker that I am afraid I will keep glancing back and forth all the and time ( from clock to H) and keep interuppting my DH more that I normally do and keep going like a freight train so as to get the words out before the bell ring. LOL can you picture the cartoon version of this, eyes darting back and forth, me speaking so fast that I am incoherrent,and then the timer running out while I am in the middle of a long word and I have to stop and them the heavy fast breathing takes over .... ROFLMAO

I am working on staying out of marathon sessions but in addition to that I need to be working on reducing thr frequency of our A talks and increasing the frequency of our fun and happy R talks.
So I am listening and I appreciate you checking in and making sure that I am following the right rules of recovery

WMF,

Sounds like you and I are pretty much on the same timeline. I can tell you from my experience that as time goes by, it does seem to fade. I view our relationship as brand new. The old one really doesn’t exist anymore because we have both been changed forever. Recently, we even laugh about some of the details of her affair.(OM had ED) I had a RA about a month ago and it answered a lot of the questions I had about my WW’s A. Sadly, they really don’t mean that much to the cheater. I also thought she might think of OP while we’re together intimately. The answer is NO. I never think of my OW while my wife and I are together. Nor do I think of my ex-wife, or all the girlfriends I had before then. There is an emotional attachment but it fades fast as its nothing compared to a spouse of 13 years whom you’ve had kids with, bought houses, etc. Other than the small jokes here and there, we’ve already locked down not discussing either A any longer. I would definitely stay out of marathon conversations, especially if you know everything already. Its hard for a BS to understand due to the destruction caused(TRUST ME!), but the A generally doesn’t mean anything long term to the WS.(greater than 3 mo.) I know, since I moved to the other side. My WW now fears I might do it again, but I won’t. Its really a lot of work, and in the end, doesn’t mean much. That’s what makes the WS feel so bad, it was all for nothing. Move forward! Don’t look back! As far as you are concerned, you all have a brand new relationship. The sex/intimacy can be fresher, the hugging, the kissing, can be hotter than ever before. Some marriages need a jolt. You are probably happier if you think about it than a lot of marriages where A have never taken place. They are still going through the motions, taking each other for granted. You and your spouse are not.


- Just my thoughts!

FYI - I'm normally checking in. Others post have said what I would be saying. From your posts it didn't sound like you needed it to be beat into your head.

Sometimes we need, sometimes we don't.


When you are talking, no matter what it is, there should not be interuptions. Sounds a little like a LB. What my H and I would do, when we were talking about our M, is one of us would talk for 10 minutes. No interuptions. Then the other for 10 minutes. No interuptions. And then 10 minutes back and forth.

We got to a place where we can now talk without interuptions...well at least when I'm right.

No, seriously, we now listen to other person better. We are not just reacting to what just came out of the other persons mouth.

This something to learn for all marriages.

But I do like the visual you created.


How is this going?

Well today is day one of me trying to do that and so far so good
Can I get a treat now .
Sorry I am just in a goofy mood today, but seriously I recoganize that I need to focus on other things besides A talk and I am going to keep constantly reminding myself of that when the urge to "relive" and "rehash" come up.

So I am going to find ways to email H at work and "talk" and plan and discuss current and future activities and events and thoughts in my head other than A.

Day 1 - I like it. And goofy moods are good for us. Brings out our playful, silly side. Then you just never know might what happen.


Think of some your similiar interest or things you would like to learn/do together. These can be good starting grounds.

I know you mentioned your DH likes racing. Is there anything here that could engage you? I must admit I would struggle with this one, finding something that I would really enjoy.

Enjoy this fun day and make it a FUN weekend.

Need to just ramble today.....It's still hard to "find things to talk about" (with H) instead of the A because OW seems to always come up - she's somehow "tied to" pretty much EVERYTHING in our lives. It's like how much can I bite my tongue in order not to make H feel bad.

I read in the book "Surviving Infidelity" that you are a survivor when you can "WITHSTAND UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING." Well I'm praying I will be there one day and I really think I will.

Sometimes I pull myself out of this "downward spiral" by thinking about all these OW who actually BELIEVE that the man they LOVE SO MUCH will actually leave their wives - when all is said and done (exposure). I have never been unfaithful but If I an was OW I would feel so stupid and USED. I do know someone people actually DO leave the W or H but that's not my case. Their "get what they want or need, no matter who it hurts" life philosophy should be discouraging.

One would almost feel sorry for them, but of course I don't, not today and not anytime soon, if ever.

I am looking forward to the day - JUST ONE DAY - when I don't think about the A. I'll get there.

And that day will come... it will catch you by surprise... cause you'll be thinking about what you did yesterday and realize that the WHOLE day went by without a thought of the A.

It takes a while to get there. And it doesn't mean every day that follows will be the same. But it will dim a little more and there will be more days where you DON'T think about it than when you do.

Just hang in there.

(((Luv)))

Today is a tough day. I cant seem to function. Its been a good ride so far intrems of making some progess feeling like we are moving forward. But the nagging feeling that "US" can never been good again is taking over me today. The reason for why US cant be good again changes from time to time, initally it was beacuse I did not think I would be able to get over the pain of the betrayal, the it was that I would not be able to "make my H forget about OW" and that I would never measure up in his eyes and he woudl forever be "in love with her".

Nowadays my mind seems to wander more towards WH seems so happy and yet I am so unhappy. He had an oppurtunity to experience a love bubble (his A) that helped him feel warm and soothe when he was feeling low and unloved. Now that that sourcse of warth has been taken away from him he has me to be his sunlight and keep showering him with love when he is low. Patience to accept his flaws and hugs to fill him when he needs one.

I on the other hand do not feel like I have any such umbrella covering me. No "fantasy period" of pure love and happinesss,( NO I am not considering having an RA), no unconditional "I hug you beacuse you are in pain" without the hug reminding me that I am the ultimate cause of my own pain (becuase WH had affair casue I did not show him love and care enough).
All I have is the hard work and attention and patience that I putting into loving my H and caring for him. In return he seems happier and more content and as a result sometimes does things that make me feel loved. He has bought me flowers, came home early to surprise me etc.

I feel un-grateful and selfish when feel this way but I feel like in the big picture he is not showing me enough that I matter. We have been counselling with Jennifer and I find that his version or our progress is very different from mine. He seems to think that things are far better than they are (and may be for him they are). He does the assigments required for the next call at the 11 hr hour in a rushed manner (combination of procrastination and or lack or importance). I dont want to be his gatekeeper and say oh no I did not see him read for the 30 minutes that he should have, or he did not actually do what he is saying he did.
One of the issues he has with me is that I was the task master so I am purposufully staying out of "managing" how he participates in this recovery. The pain of his "LOW LEVEL" particpation, enough to keep me hanging around but not enough to give me grounds to say that its not working is killing me.

I am just sad, I want to feel loved and I want my H to be in love with me, the way I am with him and show him.

I would think given that his main reason for the A was that I did not show him enough love is ironic given what I feel now with him. He says he loves me and I belive him I just dont feel it. And when I tell him that his feelings are hurt and he points out all the things he has done and when I point out the important things that reamin undone he has his "stressfull and time consuming job" as the response. If he starts to feel like he is loosing this argument he tends to take out his trump card which is "you are not the only one with pain" I suffered pain and neglect from you for 15 years ( yes thats how he sees our maritial history) so what about my pain. So that silences me cause how I can I compensate for what he felt was lack of show of love in the past.

What can I do to not feel this way and communicate to him how sad I feel ?

WMF,

Our stories are so similar, I can say "I know how you feel" with some of these same issues. I still have not figured out how to use a quote in the box like so many people do but I wanted to respond to several things you said in your post.

Now I am only a few weeks ahead of you after our D-Days and am NO EXPERT but I will tell you how I handled some of this and what my individual counselor said to say next time he says some crap like this.


She said "It makes HIM feel better if he can place blame on me - that's called DENIAL. He has unresolved issues if he cannot MAN Up and face the fact that the the affair was HIS CHOICE. Yes, we should claim 50% of the maritial problems before the affair BUT the affair is an entirely different issue. That was a Secret Relationship kept secret and seperate from you - YOU had no part of it."

And the 15 years of pain part - yes, I heard that one too. My counselor said if he was UNHAPPY that long and never spoke up or never filed for divorce, well thats his problem that obviously he was NEVER TAUGHT how to be A MAN and speak up for himself. So, he does it the only way he knew how - which was the COWARDLY way - which was to have an affair.

I went through the self blame, then his blame on me and listening to his excuses of his needs not being met. It's routine they all do it. And I cried about it for several months straight, and then there comes a point where you get mad as H*** and say I need a man of integrity, who accepts responsibility for his mistakes, not a man with no backbone who blames the mother of his children for HIS unhappiness and self-esteem issues in life.

Now, WMF you go get a pedicure today, make a hair appointment, buy a new outfit and show him what he's going to be missing if he keeps being stupid.

Right there with ya, chicka. It's a lonely road, isn't it? And it seems like it shouldn't be because our H is right there with us...but he's not really.

It's like we're both walking to the same destination, but are separated on the road. Sometimes one of us falls behind...sometimes one of us needs help walking. It's a rough road. And SO LONG.

But you know what, you've got us. We aren't much to look at, but we're here along the side of the road, cheering you on, handing you gatorade, making sure you keep going.

I'm here. We can make it. We're tough.

MogiSola

Thanks Luv thats what I know I should do, keep myself distacted from thinking about this ALL day long. Except I have been getting pedicures and Plan A'ing him until it hurts and I cant seem to get him to stop bring Stup*d and start noticing it. Or worse he is noticing it and realizing it just not communicating it to me.

I thought that it was a very sweet and supportive statememnt and nice to hear, certainly helped my mood.
And now that I know its from you its even sweeter .

Thanks.

I'm so nervous that I won't have any friends checking in with me now that I have had an identity crisis.

I don't do secrecy very well.

MogiSola

And....in addition to my last post. Sometimes I just have bad days, when even a pedicure won't help.

I'm sure he has noticed you...Men just don't THINK a lot of the time. As for my H, he says as little as he possibly can get away with these days. I've blown up so many times either with tears or anger which is understandable, I'm still working on it. He too reads and does little towards recovery. I initiate everything, the emotional needs list for MB, books, talking about it. He would DIE before he ever brought it up. So, I know how you feel. The WS should WANT to do what's right, and try to fix what he has broken.

From the posts I read, he and I are on different timelines and men generally don't like to TALK...about anything...much less about the mess he's made.

I'm not giving up yet. I think we need more time. We can't recover and rebuild in 4 months too much damage has been done.

WMF, I hope you have a better day tomorrow.

I dont want to give up but the sadness on this issue surfaces so many times for me that its getting hard to sweep under.

I wanna hang in there and wait for him to wake up and realize that I dont have the strength to keep on tugging for long. I am starting to belive that there is no way for him to wake up until I am in plan B . May be I am giving my self too much credit. May be me leaving is not going to make a dent in his life one bit.

He will probablay look at this as another tragedy in his life that he tried to make it work with me and that I just wanted too much and could not be made happy. He will write some wonderful poetry (which is really writes beautifully) about the sadness I brought to his life, spend some time letting the pain of the end of our relationship engulf him and then some wonderful soul will enter his life and wipe his tears away. The cycle goes on.

I want there to be a different ending to this story, I want there to be a "Recovered and happy" in my signature line. I want my DH to see how much I love him and how much I need him to love me.

I am looking forward to a better day tomororow as well, today as been positively depressing .

WMF,

My H also said that too - about his "unhappiness" and HIS HAPPINESS is not ALL MY RESPONSIBILITY. A person chooses to be happy. One person cannot MAKE another person feel unhappy. He has to claim that. I cannot depend on anyone else in life to make me happy but ME. If he's unhappy then he needs find out why.

For my H it was a self-esteem issue. He was looking for something to make himself FEEL better. He and the OW even tried drugs together. Now, we are church going people which tells me he was really desperate to "feel good"

But your comment about later someone "wonderful will come into your H's life." Well, JUST THE SAME can happen for YOU. Someone wonderful can come into your life too. As for me, I would never date a man whose divorce was do to him cheating on his wife and children. So, let's face how wonderful could she be?

My hope is that he wakes up soon. People do not know what they have until they loose it and then it's too late.

{{{WMF}}}

I'm sorry yesterday was a bad day. I hope that today you are feeling more positive.


Get this thought OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

YOUR H had the A.

That was HIS choice.

YOU DID NOT CAUSE THE AFFAIR.

The A was NOT your choice.

The problems that were in your M before the A did not make your H choose to seek out OW. You did not cause this.

Stand tall. Stand up for yourself. Do not take or place any blame of the A. That is his alone to bear. Get that our of your mindset right now.

And keep it out.

(Sorry, could resist trying one of the new faces. It was just too much temptation.)


So it sounds like he is sometimes 'getting it.'

Was he like this before the A? Years ago?

Are you expecting those changes over night again? Overnight changes will not last.


You have the right to feel anyway you feel.

But you also owe it to yourself and your H to let him know that you see what he has been doing. You appreciate the changes so far. You are feeling slighted and need him to pick up the load for a while and carry it for both of you.

AND you need to keep this discussion to 30 minutes.


This, cleaned up a bit, sounds like something to SHARE with your H.

Here's a question. Are you being O&H with your H (does he know, without being a mind reader, how you are feeling)?


Fog babble. That carp (yes, mispelled on purpose) is fog babble. That is him not wanting to take responsibility for HIS choice.

Fog babble right back at him babe. Bring this comment up with Jennifer and let her show him that babble isn't going to fly.

WS, even when committed to recovery, can backslide into that stupid thinking. Not being mature enough at these moments to take responsibility for their actions.

It was his action. It was his choice. This is not yours to take on.

Here's a quick story:

After my H and I were ready to committ to recovery our relationship there were times where I didn't want to be the only one to blame. On a day that was particulary bad for my DH and I thought I was getting too much carp from H, I fired right.

I reminded my H that HE left me. That HE chose to work in another state, AWAY from ME, for over 10 months. That I begged, I cried, I spoke rationally, I ordered, I tried all kinds of tactics to tell him to come home. That I needed him here with ME. That the extra money was not worth it. That we made enough to more than support ourselves while we lived in the same house together. That he was greedy and selfish for wanting to work over 3,000 miles away and would only come home every 8 to 10 weeks for a few days that were jammed backed with seeing friends and family. That I told him he needed to come home because I was really scared that I was going to cheat on him because of how lonely I was. (See the load of carp I was trying to pile on him?)

My H looked right back at me and said, yes, you did all those things. I didn't listen. And then YOU were also the one who f*d another guy. You were the one that decided I was no longer worth being faithful to and you were the one that may have ended our marriage. All those other things are easily fixed. This is not an easy fix and sometime I don't know if we can be happy again. But there is no way I'm going to stay here and let you blame me for you f*ing someone else.

Hard to hear? You bet. Did I deserve? YOU BET!

Yes, I was unhappy before the my A. That unhappiness pales in comparison (its not even comparable ) to the unhappiness I CAUSED my H.

Do you get why I told you this quick (ok, long) story?


Being O&H together and time will get your H and you further down the road to recovery.

Sorry this was so long winded.

Your ending will be what you and your H decide its going to be. Your DH will get there.

My bet is the weekend was that great together. Am I correct?

Have you considered an IC to help with your feelings?

Hang in their girl. Good days will come.

Mini T/J (sorry WMF),

jlr, I didn't realize you were in the same situation I was with a H who lived/worked in another state for an extended period of time. Just connecting...

Would you stop by my new thread? I'm starting fresh...same person, new name...incognito...but the story still continues.

Thanks
MogiSola

Ok, New day, less BS fog for me today

I can even crack a smile now isnt that nice after the disaster of yesterday,

Yes JLR you are right weekend with DH was really really nice , and a great oppurtunity for us both to just be human and away from the stress of day to day life.
It is a nice bonding experience and hopefully there will be many more to follow.

Meanwhile I am glad that yessready is behind me and I can continue onward and forward on this rough road.

I guess break down is that even though my Dh is trying to so what he thnks are the "right" things to make me happy, its not working as well as it should. I am so heart broken and I feel like I am in a million pieces. I spent the part of the day at Borders looking for some information in books on how to mend your broken heart. A lot of the books out there that deal with how to do that involve "falling out of love" at the end of a relationship so as to ease the pain of its end. In my case (and most BS's here who want tod ay in the M) its about mending the heart without falling out of love with my H. So the search for how to heal continues but I feel stronger today that I can move one and no need to curl up and roll into a ball.
I will think some more about the IC but between the MC and the dating and the vacations I dont want to go bankrupt either Lol.

I hope slowly but surely Dh will begin to assume more of his share of the work needed in the recovery and that will help more with keeping the pain of feeling un-valued under wraps.

Thanks y'all for helping me hang in there.

wmf,

Somewhere in there I warned you about the timeline, and about getting to the anger phase, and that you would get to the point where you would feel like you were doing the lifting and the WS wasn't.

And you NEED HIM TO LIFT.

You're there.


The problem becomes, how do you communicate this to him?

Hint: It doesn't take threats of divorce to let him know.


Use the rules.
Use the MB concepts - O&H especially.
Come from a position of love - he is NOT the enemy.

My H and I went through this, too. My handling of the situation was TERRIBLE. I could have done it so much better, but I allowed the problem to fester. I followed what my H wanted to do, which was to take a "vacation" from talking about the A. Big mistake, because that made it impossible for me to proceed through some of the phases that I was going through. I needed to talk about some feelings I had, some triggers, etc. All the while, HE MOVED ON IN HIS LA-LA-LA HAPPINESS. And my anger built.

A perfect set-up for Plan FU. Which is what happened.

After that, we talked about what needed to have happened all along, and that put us back onto track because he finally understood things from my point of view.

I asked him if divorce is what he wanted, because I felt like that was where I was going - out the door. I couldn't do this recovery gig on my own, and although he "thought" he was helping, his help was in a direction that was not helpful to me.

I explained that the recovery help was a lot like the languages of love. That helping me had to come in the language that I needed, or it didn't feel like help to me.

So in turn, he asked what it was he wasn't doing that I needed - and let me tell you, this was hard. But I really KNEW WHAT IT WAS.

I needed him to stop looking down when I looked at him. I needed him to stop showing me his shame, and to stop trying to make up for things ALL THE TIME. It didn't feel natural for him to always be trying so hard, walking on eggshells. I wanted him to love me "easy", and his trying to do everything for me, waiting on me like a queen was just not like him - I was overwhelmed.

I needed him to recognize when I was having a bad day. He said he DID recognize it! I asked him why he didn't do anything about it, and he said that he didn't want to make it worse - and I said that I wanted him to acknowlege the pain he saw, and just walk up and hug me. Words weren't needed, his shame wasn't needed, just prop me up. A hug, reassure me he loved me, maybe pick a wildflower and give it to me - something to express love. He said he could do that, and he did from that point on.

I needed him to talk about the affair, for HIM to initiate it so that I knew that he actually thought about things. I told him I often wondered if the event and the fallout even crossed his mind. He was shocked at this, and even hurt by it. He said he thought about it all the time, but didn't bring it up because it was his way of trying to move on and put it out of his mind - to get past his own guilt and shame, and also to try not to add to my pain. I told him I needed him to bring it up, talk to me about his feelings and thoughts without me having to be the "bad guy" and be the one bringing it up every time. SHOW ME that he thought about it, and share HIS moments of pain with ME!!! And he has.


I hope this gives you an idea of where to start. And don't LB the way I did - not the greatest plan!!!!!!


Our talk was a little longer, maybe an hour. But we planned for it.


And don't you accept his "I suffered from your lack of love for years" crappola, no no no no no.

You look at him and say, "Bubba, that train runs both ways and you know it. Love is given and taken. Nobody is in this marriage alone, and we got to this point TOGETHER. Your affair is on YOU, not on me. I accept my share of the problems in this marriage, but I will never accept the blame for your decision to have an affair - so do not ever go there again."

And you walk away and leave him in his boots full of his crappola, girl. He will NOT argue, because he will have had his handed to him, and he will know it.

SB

I agree with SB. I am in that situation now of ME bringing it up all the time, ME needing to talk, ME needing to release anger, and just needing him to aknowledge the extent of my feelings. He never shows emotion and never brings it up, never. He said he just feels so bad for what he's done to me, he's made such a big mess, he doesn't want to talk about it.

So, what usually happens I think when the WS won't talk and the BS NEEDS to talk, as you said the anger builds, so when it DOES come out it's rage and the WS never wants to talk again.

My "stage" now is past the crying all the time, I'm in full blown anger, not taking any more crap stage. I did just get some mild medication from my doctor to "soothe me" sometimes when I start to get out of control anger.

I never in a million years thought I would be here. Gosh, it's still hard to believe but it's reality and I have to be a big girls and deal with it. Lots and Lots of people living the same thing I am right now, or have lived it. It's nice to hear the survival stories. It's encouraging.

SB says it so much better than I did. Wanted to make you read it again.

Are you going to yoga this week?

SB - you are right I recoganize that I am walking up the path of Plan FU. UNfortunately deep down inside I dont want a D , I dont want a new start with a new person. I am happy with who my H is as a person and I love him enough to keep it going. At the same time I cannot allow myself to
1) continue to live in pain
2) live in pain from his betrayal
3) accept to do alll the work in this moving forward alone.

The words below accurately describe my stich:


I know he is really trying in his own way and I am sad for him everytime that I have to give him feedback that syas its not working for me. That I dont feel loved. Its hurts him most when I say that. BUt I honeslty do no say it to hurt him, I say it cause its true. I want him to like yous aid :love meeasy" nit wlak on egg shells or go mechanically go thru undesirable tasks on my EN sheet. Giving up what he wants to do because ther are many things I want him to do is not a good plan, and yet he thinks thats the only plan and so he picks what he thinks is important to me tries to show me love and its not working.

For example a big issue that stuck with me was STD testing. A couple of days after D day I spoke with H wabout having used protcetion and the response was no. I immediatley requsted that he be tested for STD's. I understand that its a tough thing to go thru with having to visit a dog and get presc etc. DH said he would go do it to satisfy me even though he was comfortable enough that there was no need, because OW is a "nice" person. He sais he would circumvent doc and pay out of pocket. Well that annoys me but I let it pass. 2 MONTHS go by, nothing excpet occassional talk of it from him when ever I say I am sad and dont feel like he prioritises me. About a month ago I went to my OBGYN and got a presc. to get myself tested. Somehow H an I both eneded up going to the lab on the same day, he for his annual physical bloodwork and I for my STDs. I did not "nag" about him getting his he was fully aware that I was getting mine. When we did ENQ's sharing 3 weeks ago I remineded again him that I would love it if he would get tested.

Finally 2 weeks ago he went to his Doc and obtained a prescription. He had a tough visit as the doc wanted to know why so that it would covered by insurance, he had to explain to the nurse and doc why. Nedless to say he was havign a really bad time when he came back. I hugged him and let him know that I empathiused with his pain since I had to go thru the testing myself. ( I must say my doc did not ask reasons why and I was thankful for that). No he has the presc. That was a week and a half ago and so my felling in this matter that I am important enough for him to go do this. How many ways and time do I need to communicate to him that this important to me. After which I have no choice but to belive that he does not do it beacuse what I need from him he doe snot CARE about. He cares more about what it requires of him to do and not so much the value of it to me.
In the menwhile I have not witheld any SF from him in order to faciliate this so he has nothing to loose. I on the other hand feel like the testing is both fro my protection and his own. I already am tested so its important for me that be tested so that we know he is all clear too.

Now I have a melt down 2 days ago and the melt down was less along the lines of I am threating to D you. it was more along the lines of I am heartbroken. I feel like humpty dumpty and nothgin can put me back to gether again. Part of the pain I was expression was not so much the A ( althought that cant alotogteher be removed) but rather the staus of our present relationship.
I cried and babbled like a broken fool bore my heart out and pain again. I felt stupid and ashamed yesterday morning for having fallen apart so badly in from of H. I felt so raw and open and exposed . I know he feels remorse and pain for what he did. My goal in talking to him about my pain is not to REMIND him of what he did but simply to express that I am broken in a million pieces and I dont know how to mend my heart.
Unfortunatley there is not way to seperate the existance of my pain and my communication of it to him without he making the immediate connection that he is the cause of it.
Anyway after massive hysterical sad breakdown day monday night and needing a melatonin to fall asleep that night. DH woke up the next morning and went to the lab nd got his blood work done. Now awaiting results. I am glad that that issue is put to bed.
I know you will be angry at me for saying this, but after 3 months and 13 days of several "talks" about this if this is the battle I have to fight for each and every thing that is important to me I wonder if I have it im me to keep going for much longer.
Either I will just stop fighting for it and let things be and accept what ever crumbs I get or I will snap and have breakdown after breakdown one of which will be the point of no return.
Something has to change, that is either my expectations and wants or his effort and actions.

P.S. - I am sorry this post is so long.

wmf,

Here is the meat of the next talk.


You tell him you have some basic points to cover, which are really related. The points will take five minutes, after which he has the floor, and you will expect him to respond to your questions. Prepare your questions, and LISTEN.

Points you brought up in your post:
1. The first point you need to tell him is that you have reached a point where you need him to understand that you are very tired emotionally, and that at the same time that you do NOT WANT TO GIVE UP. You also need to let him know that you need his help, and that the marathons do not work for you - and you know they don't work for him. Tell him that this is the first talk that will NOT be a marathon, and he can look forward to this change.

Stick with that, and do not make it a marathon. You will thank yourself and want to kiss me on the lips later.

Get up, and tell him that whether or not you are done, in 30 minutes the stove timer will go off - you are setting it right now (and go set it). You will STOP the session then, and just sit with what you have, go get some ice cream or cookies and tea or whatever, and BE DONE. Keep your word. Just let it be, and take the information you have and think on it. 30 minutes' worth is a lot - trust me!!!!!!!

2. Tell him that you need his help, and that one of the problems you find yourself thinking about is that you come back to the issue of needing different kinds of help at different times. One of the kinds of help you need is his input, which means talking, and while it is hard for him to do that, limiting the talks to 30 minutes will help both of you and you will mostly listen. Tell him you are learning new rules, and you will get better and better. Tell him today is the first time, so he needs to give you a break!

3. Now, Tell him the meat of the talk is really going to only focus on one thing at a time, so you don't get off track and all emotional. It really helps everyone if the emotions are in check, and the time limit helps do that, too. Here's the meat:

You have reached a point in recovery where you sense that some requests you have made of him (such as the bloodwork) are put off and are done only after you make a humiliating display of pain and crying, and total breakdown. This is something that makes you very ashamed of yourself and fearful of loss of the marriage, and something you do not like when it happens. On reflection, it seems like the communication between the two of you regarding things that are very important to you is not making the connection somehow.

One thing that you have decided to do to help is to make changes to the MARATHONS!!!!!!

And one thing he can help you with is................the connection part on his side.

The bloodwork being the example here - he knew you wanted it done, and he did agree, yet it was put off until your emotional level was overblown.

Question: Does he have any ideas of how the two of you can better the communication regarding these issues, and can he offer concrete ways for you to let him know how to do it? Ask him to use the bloodwork as an example, and to tell you exactly what you SHOULD have done, what might have helped to pre-empt the problems that occurred in this situation.

Question: Can you tell me my strengths in communicating with you?

Question: Tell me three weaknesses in communicating with you.

LISTEN. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN


Do not get drawn into his "well, it's already done so it doesn't matter now" response. If he says this, then you say, "Yes, it is done. I would like for you to use this situation as an example for me to learn by, so that I do not experience the problem I had in the future. I feel that perhaps we can grow together, and one of the things I need your help with is to tell me how to better my abilities in this area, and the bloodwork is the most recent and prime example on our minds. Please use this example and tell me what went wrong so I can improve. I do not want to break down into hysterics over anything again, and you KNOW you don't want that either. Help me, and help us. Tell me. I can and will improve if you tell me." Be a broken record and do not back down.

Stay on LISTENING. Don't jump in when he finishes a sentence. WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT

DID I SAY WAIT?

Because the waiting after he "finishes" allows him to fill that quietness..........after you wait about 10 or 15 seconds.......he WILL fill it.........he may say, "I'm done", and you say,

I'm thinking about your point - can you tell me more about what you mean by that? It is very important and thought provoking to me.......

OR

more likely

He will hear crickets long before the 10 or 15 seconds are up and start talking some more. Which is where the GOLD is. This is where the true thoughts, the deep thoughts, come in. People bring in the deeper ideas here, the ones they aren't usually willing to share when they are given the extra quiet time to fill.

So give it to him.


Wait wait wait for it.

When the timer goes off, kiss him, thank him, and tell him "we're done, wasn't that better than the crying hysterical stuff?" - because it will be!

Patience
One topic
Calmness
Preparation
Use the body language tips
Set the timer

I will GUARANTEE that he will be surprised that he talked to you and he will actually tell you things you didn't know before. And they will be good.

And you will be able to stop the marathons, because this will make you want to.


OH - AND IF YOU GET DONE BEFORE THE TIMER GOES OFF (WHICH DOES HAPPEN!), KISS HIM AND THANK HIM, AND GO GET YOUR ICE CREAM.

SB

I love smart ladies!

I've got a fairly good idea what you may do for a living SB but do you mind sharing?

I think we need someone like you in all of our relationships, personal and work.



WMF, while it might not feel like it. Things are moving in the right direction. Learning from others and not repeating others mistakes (one way I define success) will help with the POSITIVE changes.

I can't tell you enough how wonderful your M will be.

I sent my yoga dedication out to. Perhaps that positive energy will help you a little too.

Thanks SB
Thats a very helpful post and again completelty on the mark with what I am feeling and a very specific and productive plan of how to resolve it.
I will try and find a good opprutunity to have that disussion.
Before I even read your post what I did was make a list of what the important issues to me are. Bloodwork being one, homework from Jennifer being the couple of others.

I emailed it to H and he called me back and actaully had a great suggestion for me. His analysis was that I put out requests and then I have an unreasonable reponse time expectation from him . So what he is going to do is when I put anything that is important to me on the list he will communicate back to me what his expected end date is for that. I have no doubt that this will help me re-adjust when I expect something to get done and that might help alleviate the constant waiting game I play. I am cautious however of how to handle if and when the "due date" comes and goes. I dont think H realises the extent and methods of his procastination and he always has several arguments ready and available to fall back on as to "WHY" he did not do something. As much as I am hoping this might help him be accountable to himself I feel like I need a better plan to deal with the breakdown of this system if it happens.

Permit me to just go back to the ring issue for a minute, if you remember a couple of weeks back I had a break down on that . Well since then we spoke and agreed on a joint plan. So 2 weeks or so ago, DH called our jewler via phone and ordered a ring identical to the one he had before just the right size. Great Now this jeweler happens to be about 1 hr away from us. I know my H works full time so there are not too many oppurtunities for him to go get it. I offered to go get it but he said that wont make sense cause he needs to make sure the size is right before we pick it up.
Now I dont feel as desperate about this issue as I did before because part of me has made peace with it so its not the same pain I feel when I see that it is still unresolved. At the same time when I realise that it is still "open" I debate in my own head as to what I should be doing to help my self be at complete peace.

1) Should I remind (read nag) my H once again to say rememeber the ring ?
2) Should I continue to wait for a "reasonable" amount of time. If so please tell me in what in your opinion is a reasonable amount of time for me to wait .
3) Play mind games with my brain and somehow convince myself further of the unimportance of it. This is the only way I have control over the issue because its all me , what I feel and what I can do , no expecations of what H can or will do.

Now I did not put this on my list of important issues with him beacuse I did not want him to feel like I was reopeneing the issue again. I have resisted bringing it up in conversation with him in the last few weeks 1) beacuse I am not so desperate about it any more 2) I want to avoid LBusting.

Any suggestions for what I should do with that issue at this point?
Thanks
I really appreciate your insight and the time that you take out to post to me.

wmf,

The ring issue?

Easy!

Tell your H that you would like to have a date in that town at a "favorite" restaurant (or a "new" restaurant, or SOMETHING!!!!! ANYTHING!!!!!).

Oh, and by the way, while we're there, we can swing by and pick up your ring!

And "surprise!!!!" You've already made reservations, and gotten a babysitter, and everything!


No sweat.


You can figure out something like this, right?



It doesn't always take a confrontation. When these things happen, sometimes we get locked into thinking it has to be this one way, or that other one way. But doing that, we exclude the thousands of other ways that are alternatives, and those alternatives are so often better.

When you catch yourself thinking between only two choices, ask yourself "Is there a third or fourth or fifth alternative here?" because there probably is. You might be locked into a binary choice thought in a multiple choice world.



As for worrying about the issue of his procrastination. My H is a procrastinator - or WAS!

It about drove me nuts.

He CHANGED.

Yep.

Changed.

See, there was this thing I did, where I nagged about his needing to do this or that, and his impending deadlines.

He would miss them.

And I would get angry, and then he would ignore the fact that things needed to be done. Put them off longer, and there would be a very vicious cycle in my house.

You know that cycle.

Well, I stopped my end of the cycle.

He missed deadlines, and I said nothing. No reminder. No nagging. NOTHING. I just decided I was not his mother, and I was not going to buy in to his little problem. After all, I control one person in the world, and that is ME.

I will say that again, wmf, so you take it to the bank:

I CONTROL ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD, AND THAT IS ME.

So, I decided that if he was a procrastinator, things would get changed only if he chose to change them. I couldn't make him change it.

Two things happened:

1. He missed deadlines he didn't care about.

2. He missed deadlines he did care about.

See, he was depending on me to nag, remind, etc. And as soon as I stopped, he missed one, and blamed me. I told him, Not my job. You want to procrastinate, that's on you. I have spent too much energy fighting you, trying to change your behavior, begging you to do things sooner, and all the rest. But since you are a grown man, I realize it is something you want to do. So, I am leaving you alone. I don't like nagging you, and you don't like me nagging you. So I quit.

Since then, his behavior has changed a lot. He is on time. He meets deadlines. He gets things done before they are due. He remembers the trash every week, without me saying a word (well, he missed once about a month ago, but there was a reason for it!). He has CHANGED, because I changed.


And after a few months of his changing taking place, we talked.

He said that when I nagged, or "reminded" him, sometimes he felt belittled. That he was much less motivated to do things only because someone was telling him to do it. It had nothing to do with the fact that the job was hard, nothing to do with the fact that the job was unpleasant, or anything else like that. It was simply the fact that he was inwardly rebelling against someone telling him what he needed to do. And he said he KNEW it was childish, like being a teenager again - and he KNEW it was stupid. But there it is.


Another topic for talking with him. See, it will pay to just get his perspective on this. It will not cause you any pain at all, but will probably open your eyes and his on what this very simple interaction between the two of you really can become - the dynamics are enormous.


Hey jlr - I'm NOT a psychologist!!!!!! I work in the field of communications and analysis of human communication.

SB

Begin t/j...


That was my guess, something with communication, perhaps helping with PR or images. You speak in easily understood terms, key give away that you were not a psychologist.

Are there recommendations for books to help with reading/understanding body lanuage and/or responses in the business world?

I like the K.I.S.S. method (keep it simple stupid...while I don't feel stupid I like to try to keep things simple for my sake).

And what must all of our writing techniques say to you! Or maybe I should be nervous about what it says about me.

... end t/j

WMF - How are you doing today?

Schoolbus-

I LOVED what you said about the nagging not working. IT IS SOOOOOOOOOO TRUE!!!! There is this saying i have learned in my year since D-day- "WHAT YOU RESIST - PERSIST".

This saying hit me like a ton of bricks because i was big time into fixing the world and especially my H. I told him every little thing that was wrong with him- including NEVER doing things for himself.

I got so sick of nagging him, that i just DID everything for him myself- made ALL of his appts, -Dr, haircuts, etc; did all the banking, did all his shopping, including buying his underwear and shoes even- did all the entertaining, vacation planning, etc. plus worked a full time jog and raised 3 kids. i even took on 2 part time jobs to make extra money. This was so bad, because it just gave him extra time to cheat on me.

After d- day, i stopped cold doing everything. I dont even do his wash not- it is in a seperate pile for him. i dont remind him to do things and like you said- when he forgets- he has to bear the consequences. i dont cook for him unless it is a special meal. the man never even knew how to use a computer or send an e mail!!! well - now he is on his own. it is sooo liberating.

the things i nag him about now are character changes, but i am working on stopping that too. He has sleep issues and i used to reming him to nap so he could be awake later. now i dont. if he falls asleep, i just walk away from him.

it is sooooo hard to do with this and his inablility to plan things and make dates ahead of time- he just lets things happen and makes no special time for us to talk and that is hard not to nag about. sometimes i still remind him.

some of our therapists suggest that i "gently remind" him. now i do it by texting him on his cell phone.

but the day i learned that the only one i can change is ME- was a great day. Now i just need to put it into practice in all issues.

S-55

The only "reminders" I ever do now?

I ask. For example, I might say, "Can I pick up your medication for you when I go to get mine?"

That's it. I don't ask if he called in his renewal on his prescription. I don't nag him to do that. I make the assumption he has done that, and ask if I can pick it up for him. Because I have made this change, it grants him the respect that he HAS changed and HAS accomplished the task he needed to do.

And the answer is he HAS.

Usually, he has already gotten his meds.


I don't "gently remind". I don't text him, or email him, or leave little notes.

He is a MAN. A grown man who does not need a mommy.

I am his wife, not his mommy, and one of our talks had to do with that.

Our talk basically encompassed the issue of nagging. How the circle went that I worried about his "chores" not getting done, or the errands or deadlines not being met. He resisted because I "reminded" him. I reminded more often because I worried. He resisted more. In the end, like you, I usually just did it myself. He became angry with me because I would do it - and yes, he fully intended to do many of the things, only when HE WANTED TO. The issue was that because I was reminding him (nagging, from his POV) it made it feel to him that I was "making" him do the chores. He lost the

sense of pride

he got from doing the things around the house he would get when he did them without me asking. The chores were something he did "for me", not because I nagged.

My nagging - my reminding - took that away from him. They essentially took an act of love out of his hands and made them into something he hated.

Wow.

I turned something he enjoyed into something he hated, because I gave him deadlines. Deadlines on acts of love.

Now really, when we think about these chores, do most of them have "deadlines"?????

Well, some yes, most, NO.

The trash does have to go out on Thursday night, for example, because we are first on the route and the guys in the truck will just miss our bin if it's not out there!

But will the dishwasher wait until 7:30, or will it explode if it isn't loaded by precisely 7:09 ????

Does his medication have to be picked up every month on precisely the 15th at 4:00, or can he get it on the 17th, as long as he doesn't run out?

Isn't it okay if the lawn waits just one more day, while he chooses to clean the pool instead today?

Can't he replace the light switch today, and go get the wood for the fence repair tomorrow, or Friday instead because the dog needs a bath later on (after the light switch)?

Isn't he an adult, and can't he prioritize his agenda?

I mean, after all, don't *I* prioritize MY own agenda? How would I feel if HE PRIORITIZED MINE????????


eeep.


Now, when he made that point..........well..........


eeeep.


Wasn't I a bit controlling.


eeeeeeeeep.


That's what LISTENING got me.


That "silence" factor I harp about. This came out in one of those silent moments. After he was polite, and I left the silent door open. In a "filled" moment, he filled it alright.


And I finally understood what the problem was between us about the procrastination.


He felt like I was trying to control him. I thought I was having to remind him.

He resisted. I pushed.


Our points of view were drastically different. Because NOWHERE IN THERE DID WE EVER

SIMPLY TALK LIKE ADULTS IN CALM AND SIMPLE TERMS


AND LISTEN

LISTEN

LISTEN

How terribly simple was this problem.


And we butted heads for years.

Unnecessarily.

I judged him. He judged me.

We pushed and pulled.



Now, I know. And the relief.....................ahhhhh.




S-55,

Don't judge him. Look at your role in it. How hard do you push, and are you contributing to his resisting? Did he begin the marriage with these chores as acts of love, and then you decided he "owed" them to you?

Change that.

You have the chance now.

Talk to him about it. With your apologies. Watch the change - in HIM and in YOU.


SB

jlr,

About the best book I have read recently regarding relationships really wasn't focused on communication so much, or even about marriages in particular.

It was called Leadership and Self-Betrayal: Getting out of the Box By the Arbinger Institute.

The book is written sort of along the lines of Who Moved My Cheese? in the sense that the concepts are presented in a story format.

The concepts are basic ideas that are applicable to both business and personal relationships. Although focused toward working in a tough office setting, it really makes you look at your marital relationship as well.

One of the major ideas of the book hits at the concept that when we see a problem with someone else, we need to first look at ourself. What is it that we are resisting about that person, what is it that we do not want to do for the other person, what instinct might we have betrayed in ourself about that person (self-betrayal) that has led us to begin to resist the other person?

It is really an excellent book, and has made me look at my very difficult workplace in a new light. I'm employing (pun intended) the concepts at work, and trying to see how things shake out. So far, so good.


It also gives me a much different perspective on my own behavior, and ownership of relationships.

A pretty good read. And very reader-friendly, to boot.

SB

sb- YOU ARE SOOO RIGHT!!

i am very impatient and i feel like i need to manage his time. the man has no ability to prioritze and it drives me crazy.

if he has started washing dishes and our daughter came home with a broken arm - he would finish washing the dishes first! (Not seriously - but this kind of thing.)

my new job is to LISTEN and not manage. i will keep saying it.

many times i am looking for him to prioritize me- and then that validates me and his love for me. like if we make an appt to have alone time ... i wait to see if he will approach me about it.

then if he doesnt- i feel upset or i criticize him.

i know i need to tell myself that these are HIS issues and do not relate to me.... but after bearing the ultimate hurt of infidelity- every new hurt- still hurts more.

sunflower

S-55,

Why do you wait for him to make him your priority?

Why not approach him instead?

The simplest answer sometimes is changing what you are thinking.


See, you somehow sound like you have this fantasy, about how he is going to be the guy who reads your mind about what you think is romantic. And he will swoop in and do these romantic things for you - for example, make you his priority - whatever that means to you.

Sit down with him. Fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire with him. And if he won't do it with/for you, fill one out as though you were him sitting there doing it. You should know him well enough that you can do it. Then, go about meeting those needs for him.

You will see the change in him over a few weeks of meeting his needs.

Read the book I just suggested to jlr. You will understand the EN concept even better, because that book really does support the idea of the EN concept, only from a drastically different POV.

There are DJ's in your posts - read back over the posts and notice them. Maybe these are coming through in your actions and words to your H. Are you watching that part of yourself - changing that in yourself?

I am betting that if your H can hold a job, he can prioritize.

You and he need to sit and talk about the procrastination issue, and what your EN's are. What it all means to you, and what it means to him. Your job in the talk would be to listen, of course.

Then, later on, a follow-up talk might include more asking and listening. You just might find yourself learning a lot about how your marriage got to be in the state it was in leading up to the affair. And how to never get there again.

SB

SB-
YOu are so right here also. I am that person who wants him to love me above all else... to know my needs... . i am the ultiimate romantic. Maybe that is why i was/am so wounded by all his affairs.

when you called them "patches"...it made sense. he never loved them... they just give him the admiration that i wasnt giving him.


but i go back to ... with all the hurt feelings between us and his ignoring me, not meeting any of my ENs, i stayed in the marriage. WHY DID HE HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE OF IT WITH SO MANY WOMEN? why couldnt he finally talk to my about how he was feeling???

i will get the 2 books you mentioned.

we are doind SAA book together- reading a chapter aloud to each other every night. we are on chapter 4.we will do the EN chapter soon. i think it will be very enlightening.

what is a DJ????

Thanks so much for all your insights, SF

I am guilty of the same flaw. Thinking that if he does what I am "thinking in my mind" then he is really tuned into my needs. True soul mate yadya yada yada....


I guess that ruins the fantsy of how much he loves me beacuse importance is being attached to the mind reading. Its really a silly way of thinking, becuase when I see it in print now it almost seems that its not the act that he would do that makes me happy its the "him doing it because he read my mind" thats is going to be the cause of my happiness.
I need to start ACCEPTING that mind reading is not a quality of love and does not define how much he loves me. Part of it is also thinking that if he cared for me enough it would occur to him naturally to do it. What I am learrning through these posts and disussions with my Dh is that he wants to do things that make me happy and the only real blockage to that is ME. I need to identify what it is that will make me happy and communicate it to my DH.
If it turns out that only mind reading can make me happy then may be I can send my Dh to physic school LOL

Schoolbus I follwed your advise and had a productive discussion with Dh about my heartbrake and how I feel like my strenght in continuing to wage this battle is diminishing. I am glad to have it off my chest becasuse it was like this big brewing storm in my head that I was afraid to reveal to my H . I was afraid to say aloud to my self and him that I think about throwing in the towel. That things sometimes seem unsurmountable and that I need his help in getting me thru the tough times. I could see that he was hurt and angry at the same time that even though things were getting better with us that I still evaluated getting out.
I came to a realisation that "we" were dong better than "I". I was gettign to a point of being completely run down and feeling let down with his efforts towards this recovery and having a calm disussion about it in the open gave me a good start to feeling like now that he knows how I feel there is a chance he might do something about it.
So back to positive track, I am confident that as long as we keep communicating to each other in a healty and productive manner we will keep moving forward. I am looking forward to more positive progess in the coming days and weeks

Sb- I love this post you made about procastination and I think it will really really help sink in to me that I need to remove myself from being his monitor and reminder and let him lead him do his own taks his own way. If he drops the ball then thats his choice , I need to stop constantly trying to keep them up for him. I will help if he asks for it but I really need to stop mothering him and reminding all that he has to do ...


I have been so positive and feeling like we are moving forward and its been nice. Today however I am having a massive trigger attack and I am trying to hold up a huge stop sign in my mind to shut out all the images. Its not working yet but I will keep at it. I dont want to waste a beautiful day grieving for somthing that is not occuring today.

If I can do it without Lbing all day then may be I can treat myself to a facial or something as a reward for myself

{{{WMF}}}


And where is your list of things you do to make yourself happy? Have you done any of those things today?

Do something for YOU.

Thanks I needed that kick in the butt

Anyway took the kids out for brunch and drove around in the warm sunshine, all fed and happy right now

So hopefully the worst is gone for the day

wmf,

So much in your posts.

First, I'm so glad you had the talk about where you are in recovery. I was in your shoes, and when my H and I talked, he also felt hurt and angry that I felt that way.

He was hurt because he felt like we had moved forward, and that "we" were doing well. You put it so nicely when you were able to separate how you two as a couple seemed to be progressing, but how you as an individual felt so weak and tired. That really describes the feelings I faced at your point in recovery, and how so many BS's also feel. An excellent perspective, and something that others can learn from!

My H was angry because he thought he had been doing the right things - and while he had been doing many things, I really needed him to do some things differently and other things not at all, and he also needed to do some things he wasn't doing. The issue seemed to be, like you, that I wasn't clear in what those things were or the exact activities he needed to do. Sometimes, I wasn't sure what they might be myself! That was very frustrating for him, and when we talked about that aspect of it, we did have a laugh about it, because it really is kind of goofy.

Me: I want you to do something!

H: What?

Me: Something to help me feel better!

H: I will do anything! Tell me what you want!

Me: I want.........I want.............I don't know!

H: Well, okay....I will get right on it!




Sound familiar?




The triggers, and rollercoaster are very common. When they happen, remember that it is okay. You do not have to take the "moment" right then, you CAN delay the moment and dwell on it later. Give yourself permission to wallow in the grief at a more convenient time if it comes up in public (self-talk, "I need to get through this public moment, but I can work on the trigger consciously later.").

Use your positive supports for the down days, and I like that you did. Those things help. I put up a fence, and believe me, that hammering of nails did wonders for the anger phase.

Plus we got a nice dog run out of the deal.


As for the mind-reading. I think most women grow up with this fantasy or ideal. There are so many books and movies that have the "perfect lover" who knows exactly what his woman wants, meets her needs, comes with flowers and says exactly the right thing at the right time. We grow up with the myth that our mate will know what we need, and will be able to read our minds, meet our expectations without us having to tell them how.

If this were true, marriages would all be perfect, wouldn't they?

Myth busted.


So we work at it. We just have to talk, to show one another how to love each other.

Along those lines:

Here's one task that someone gave me and my husband that turned out to be one of the toughest ever, but very valuable and fun, too.

Write down ten things your spouse can DO for you that would make you feel loved.

(Now, these things need to be things that your spouse can actually do - not dreams or fantasies. Things that can be done without extraordinary cost or effort - for example, you shouldn't put down something like "build an ark by hand without modern tools, or give me a million dollars every day".)

The list should include things that make you FEEL loved. My list was basic, and had things like "help me change the sheets on the beds, hold my hand in public, bring me flowers once in awhile for a surprise".

Once each of you have listed ten things, exchange lists. Then, at least once or twice a week - DO SOMETHING ON THE LIST WHEN YOUR SPOUSE IS NOT EXPECTING IT.

I can tell you this - since we exchanged our list about 15 years ago? I have never changed the sheets alone again.


SB

Hey WMF & SB,

It's me... "LUV" I had to change my screen name for...well...reasons I cannot say. But wanted to catch up with you two. I have been reading your posts.

I am doing very well. It has been a little over 4 months now since my D-Day. My husband is going out of his way to rebuild our broken life, my broken heart. We had a "break through" conversation. I see things very clear now - how the A started, continued and how he could not stop he was in so deep. Do, I feel sorry for him , no but I DO NOW understand it all now.

When we were finally able to step back, remain calm and really TALK about the events and details without screaming, I can now see light at the end of the tunnel. I know I have a very long way to go but I have a peace the past few days I am just now able to feel. I didn't think there would ever be a day when I didn't CRY or scream and I have had several now.

A's happen ALL THE TIME. I'm not alone. I experienced something a lot of people go through. I thought it only happened to OTHER people. I have learned a great deal over the past few months and will continue reading and learning. I have grown as a person, a wife and a mom. My life will never be the same again.

But I decided I don't want to give the A so much power over my life anymore I want to LIVE!! Life is short. I want to live and to be happy. He has to live with what he has done for the rest of his life, what else could I do that would be worse punishment? There is nothing so I need to move forward and give my kids back their mom!

Schoolbus

Thanks, it was a nice relief to come to that realisation. Its not that I was resentful that he/we were progressing better than I. Its just that once I realised the cause of my unhapiess inspite of progess of "US" it made (makes) sense and then easier to work on fixing.
Today I feel much more on the right track or "I" "him" and "us".
Each time I feel low I try to identify what part was lacking today and then nuture that part a little extra so all 3 parts keep moving forward.

Again Bingo , so eye opening in terms to realising what the road block is "ME" . I am hindergin my own happiness by not knowning what I need to achieve it. So making more of a concious effort to identify the "what". Also realising that the what is ever changing so its a current "what" and "why".


I absolutely love this . It sounds like a simplified form of the EN sheet but in reality its more of a practical application to the EN sheet. I will absolutely do this. I have a sheet for my own stuff of what I can do to make me happy. So this is a nice extension + it will give my husband direction on "WHAT" he can actually do instead of getting right on to some ficticious mind reading, clue searching, set up for failure, treasure hunt.
So I thank you for that Valuable pice of advise.

P.S.- Can you check out 2b1again's thread. I am sure she could use your expert advise and help. I am concerned for her and can support her but I am not knowledegale enough to point her on what to do

Dear WMF and SB

i so agree with both of you. I also want my H to figure out that i want to talk and when i am ready.

we will try the list of 10 things tonight . i love it! it is more specific than the EN list.

its funny... how i KNOW all the right things to do with my H, but then when i get swept up by emotion ...i dont ACT the way i know is the right way. I fall into old traps.

i need to work more on healing myself, SF

DetlaDawn -
Glad to hear that your recovery is making progress. Its nice to see an upswing in the mostly down rollercoaster.
Your statements also reflect tremendous personal progress and that is even more inspiring to me. Hopefully the non-stop crying and screaming days are behind us for good and we can look forward to many more positive days strung together in a row.

Schoolbus -

I have been working on my list for DH on little things he can do on any given day ( busy or otherwise) that I know are guranteed to make me smile. I am up to 6 so far. I want to make sure I spend some time thinking thru each one to make sure that its a guranteed for me .

I probably wont have a chance to share it with him until monday night but I am excited about working on it. I am determined to once and for all bury this mind reading/childish guessing game fantasy that I have been feeding and looking forward to a new and improved way of communicating to my DH with words instead of telepathy

wmf,

If the telepathy thing ever works out for you, let me know. I get tired of talking sometimes.





My H just said he has dinner ready for me. One of the things he likes to do is cook. That's good because I'm not such a great cook. I'm sort of famous for my cooking disasters - some people tell me I should write a book about how not to burn down thy neighbor's house. I tell them that just because you have set fire to three kitchens (not my own, mind you!) does not necessarily mean you can't cook.

Usually, that is met with silence.......


So, the other day, H and I were talking, and I said I thought I might try some cooking again. He said, "Please, no. Will you not cook if I throw hundred dollar bills at you???"


I guess this means I get some spending money?





SB

This my favorite post from you on my thread ( or any thread for that matter)
It has nothing to do with why I have this thread at all and I love that fact about it.
Is it possible that I dont have to talk about "IT" all the time
So thank you for a totally OT post that gave me a lightbulb moment of progress. I an kinda crazy busy at something completely unrelated for the next few days but I wanted to stop in an acknowledge this milestone if it really is one .
I feel it deserves a quick happy dance so here goes -

P.S - yes you get some spending money, just dont use it to buy any cookbooks

What "IT"??


Hey, this kid told me a story today. It was wonderful. This is a kid who three months ago could not tell you what his name was, so it means that now we can legitimately tell him to shut up and he will now understand. Not that he will shut up, but at least it has meaning in his life, and there is actually a REASON for him to shut up. Because he can talk!

Here's the story. Oh...important to note, this kid tells the story with absolutely no pauses whatsoever in between words or sentences. So I will type it as he spoke it. And all "R"s are "W"s.

my daddy gave me medicine in my butt cuz i was sick and then i throw up and then i poop and i yell daddy come wipe my butt cuz i poop and now my daddy did dat and he make me clean and now my momma get me clothes-zez and put on my shirt and then i sleep and then i get on the bus to go skool and LOOK!!! i got chocolate milk.

Now, isn't this a wonderful world?


This is the true meaning of life:

CHOCOLATE MILK

And here I was, searching all this time.




SB

I am posting so that I can celebrate a change in my signature line. Here is my old sig line so far since I stared posting in June. I hope I wont need the support of this thread in the future. It has certainly been a lifeline for me during a time that I thought I would for sure drown.

So Thank you SchoolBus and JLR (and many others) for being there for me when I was desperately seeking air to breathe. If either of you ever need a kidney, you know who to call.......


Old signature that I am ready to now bury.
_______________________
BW(me) - 40
WH - 47
married 1994 - 3 kids 7,9,11
D day 4/29/08 - (4 weeks after EA/PA began)
NC in place since 5/5/08
I wanna move forward and be happy .


New signature from here on forward.

_________________________
FBW(me) - 40
FWH - 48
M- 1994, 3 kids under 12
D day 4/29/08
Moving forward towards the pursuit of happiness.

Be sure to check in and let us know how things are going. The support can be just normal support.



I'm so happy to see this change.

I was happy to see you giving support to others. A sign of "moving forward" if there ever was one!

And hey - I don't need a kidney so much as I need the winning lottery numbers...............



SB

Hey my friend, wannamoveforward ~

i was wondering where you've been and why i didn't get a 2x4 or so from you yesterday when i posted from the pitty pot....

i was having lunch with my H today and we were talking about posting (and not posting) anymore.... it was then that i learned that you weren't going to be posting anymore.... while i am sad that you are leaving - - at the same time i am happy for you...AND your husband.

i am glad you guys are moving forward. lucky you that it seemed to happen pretty quickly for you (but i know what that eternity feels like). i'm still holding out for that day my H gives the OW up for the one that has loved and cherished him since 1985!! i hope it's soon actually, cause she's proving to be the bigger person in all this and keeping her word when she said 'there's no future for us together....and i don't want contact with you' (or something to that effect)...

well, that day may never come, but in the meantime i'm becoming a different person because of an incredibly selfish act he did and is choosing to continue to be bitter against me and resent me at times for my shortcomings and poor choice not to keep him as my #1 priority in the past....boy am i having a hard time swallowing that one.... if i never truly have him back - - i know it's because of my own stupidity in our marriage. yes, he made the choice to not be a real man and confront me face to face before he CHOSE to cross that line....but ultimately, it's because of my lack of care for him that he made that choice. and it's still his choice not to let 'her' go so we can move forward.... i know i'm not responsible for that last one....

BUT, i will not make that mistake a second time. so, yes, i pray my H will love me again - - and that i can stay in love with him while he remains this alien creature, but most of all i pray i will even get the opportunity to make him happy once again....that we can make each other happy. but if not, i will certainly make the next man i marry one happy dude! i don't think i'm cut out to be single, but i will wait for God to provide that prince for me.....one that's willing to fight for me like i am him........ the alien i am with now doesn't seem to be willing to fight for me yet.... but, i'm holding on...

well, sorry to go off on a tangent there..... but good luck to you both! i hope you don't have to post here ever again as a BS.....or for any reason really other than if you want to keep us updated on how well you guys are doing.... you've worked very hard to get your man back.....keep it up..

thanks for your encouraging words....and even your 2x4's....they knocked me off that pitty pot sometimes.... lol

i'm looking forward to being able to change my signature line too......
take care.