Maybe one of the items for discussion with Jennifer, or others here that can help, is how to be open & honest without it feeling brutal. I realize that talk of the A will never be painless but there should be ways to mitigate feeling wiped out afterwards.

My guess is, and it is purely a guess, these brutally honest discussions have love busters (LB) coming from both sides.

And just to reiterate what SB told you...talk of the A should be minimized. No long, drawn out sessions. Some will schedule a 30 minute talk and when the times up, the times up. Then its time to do something fun together...this helps keep the love bank from draining.



That is EXACTLY right.

A MC or IC can be beneficial in helping you with the feelings.

Jennifer is helping you with the actions.



OK, I just want to make sure that you are not taking and he is not placing blame on you for HIS A.

As far as how you feel about your history. Is this something you have dealt with so you are no longer unhappy or are you in fix-it mode (meaning I'm fixing everything right now so I just fixed this)?


I see nothing wrong with anger. The problem arises on how we display anger (without respect).

From your posts yesterday and this morning...are you seeing glimps of your H and not his foggy twin?

It sounds like you and your H are heading in the right direction.

Well that is a tricky one. I think the fact is that I was not meeting his emotinal need for being a caring compassionate human being. I had an emotional wound in me ( not caused by him) which un-known to me was festering . I had assumed since so much time had passed ( happened in 91) that I was over it. How ever 3-4 days after D-day during a casual conversation about emotions etc I began to speak in deatil a to H about what this person had done to me and all the repressed feelings of being ashamed of the abuse came surfacing up. H knew kinda what had happened but not details. Having spoken all the details aloud ( never told any one but H ) allowed me to accept what had happened and relase any blame for what I was holding my self. I was barely at the end of my teens, a young girl starting out all alone in a new country ( I had just moved here). As is common in most cases like mine I blamed myself for being used in that manner. Mostly I blamed my self for being "stupid " or "not strong" for falling for some ones manipluation. Re-living the past allwed me finally 17 years later to accept that I was COMPLETEY BLAMELESS for what happened to me . After this discussion the next morning I woke up and I was a new person and have been ever since. I have no desire to live in misery nor am I unhappy at the happiness of any one around me. I do for feel guilt for needing things and not for feel guilty for pursuing pleasure. I think in the past when I was in my "broken" phase I had difficulty receiving joy beacuse I felt I was undeserrving of it. And since I did not allow myself to be happy I resented it when H was and it manifested itself in me being a negative, always a task master, complaining , sucking the joy out of life individual.

So H having had to endure the manifestaion of that is my fault in the relationship. It was never Ok for him to have down time because things had to be done, no time to just lay back and smell the roses. Always had to entertain, have people around, party be overly social so as to have my surroundings filled with noise, whihch H disliked. He loves peaceful weekends with no commitments so as to relax with family but in my mind that was a complete waste of time. Either I set up tons of tasks that HAD TO BE DONE or there were always events to clean , shop and plan and work for. No resting peacfull quite time.

So when he says to me that he thought that I did not love him because I showed more anger than care towards him and that it would never change beacuse it was too hard to change some ones behaviour, I belive he truly belived that and was at his ropes end.

Does that give him permission to have an A no, but it did give him permission to be unhappy and ask for a D (which he did not) absolutely!. I have mentioned to him several times that that would have been a better approach for him than an A and I think (I hope) he sees that. So I do hold my self responsible for making him unhappy enough to not want me. I do not hold my self responsible for him having achieved that by betraying our marriage and causing new havoc in ou already strained relationship by adding the pain of the A.

I am afraid to say this aloud but in the interest of Brutal honesty here it is. I think the pain of this Affair allowed everthing to churn inside me so much that all the dark burried emotions in me came rising and I was able to set them free. So the pain of the A acted as a catalyst in bettering my own life and for that I am thankful. Do I think that I would have ever healed probably yes, but It would have taken a lot of years and endless money in therpy to get to where the on discussion with H 3-4 days after D day got me.

So in answer to your question a resounding YES, I do belive that I am healed from my history and not in patchwork bandaid mode for it.

Good. I just wanted to make sure you weren't blaming or accepting blame for the A and that you are doing what you need to heal from past abuse.




Sounds a bit like me...I use to have a "to do" list for the weekend that there was no way a person could complete the list in two weeks. (I might have a little too much "Type A" personality in me. My hubby more a "Type B". Normally we can even each other out...and then there are the other time. )

I have come to appreciate down time. That it can most certaintly energize you. Are you there yet? Ready to enjoy the quiet times too. I will admit that it was STRESSFUL for me at first and there are definately times where I say, enough of all this, there are things to do.

If you don't mind, where are you originally from if you moved here (& and I guess I assume 'here' is the USA) in your late teens?

The thought has crossed my mind that h may be De-fogging but I am afraid to say that. Beacuse my feelings and the situtation changes every day. since friday nights huge discussion things have changed. But honestly Thursday night I was contemplating moving into plan B. I know there is NC already and the goal of plan B is to kinda ensure that WS decides where they want to be but in my case the goal of plan B was to see if I really mattered. Would it change H's perspctive on my role and what I actually do bring into this marriage.
Thursday I was trying to figure out how detrimental to our recovery ( and the kids) it would be for me to remove my self from filling any of H's needs so he can see for himself ( and may be I can too) how much I do contribute to the relationship.

I was also having hugs issues with measuring up and the fantasizing that I was never going to match up to his perception of the perfection of happiness in the A. Since in our case the A was short lived but intesified to a commitment to move from one relationship to another pretty quickly, but had to be terminated abruptly , complicated by the fact that the OW is in another country I had no way out of breaking the bubble of the fantasy of this perfect A. I always imagined H and OW in this magical place and now him being here with me meant that he was giving up "nirvana". I envisioned him pining for what he lost for the rest of his life and that his goodbye phone call and letter pretty much said " I will always love you , sorry in another life I could have been with you, but in this life I am stuck with having given my word to my current wife so I cant do as I really want. So we great souls will have to sacrifice our great love so I keep my commitment to my vows and my kids."

So may be the idea of implementing plan B was some what for me and somewhat to help him de-fog. Monday since I got the actual letter that was sent and I can see what was actually said, it is way so much easier to deal with the reality of his mind frame than for me to have imagined all of those things. The contents of the letter hurt but again re-inforced what I have been saying all along, DH ( yes I know I added a D) is bascially a good guy. The good bye was much cleaner than I anticipated, more final and clear in the termination than I fantasised. It said that WE ( him and I) may or may not work out but while he included her in the mix there was no chance for it. So regardless of our outcome he was bidding her good bye with no future hope or promise for further contact and he wishes well for her. Aplogised for causing her pain by draggin her into a situation that he should have handeled better ( starting the A an how he abruplty ended the A). Now I know its not by the book NC letter but its also not the letter I imagined in my head a paragraph ago.

But when I think of De-fogged WS based on the posts I read here they seem to be at the point where the WS realises that what they did should not be blamed on BS. Realises that OP is not innocent bystander that they need to apologize to. Realise the extent of pain that they caused BS. Realise the weaknees there exists within the WS to re-establish contact and how detremental that is towards recovery and that they need to protect themselves from that occurance at all costs.
I dont know if I am right in the milestones I am looking for but if these are the correct milestones (please correct me if I am wrong) then I dont think we are there yet. I am on a positive note since Monday and so thats 2 days of +.
Any ideas on if there is anything I can do to help Defog or do I just have to be patient and wiat for the fog to lift.

Schoolbus
I know you wrothe this a few days back and I wanted you to know that it is finally sinking in to me. What he had with OW was not love, but a pure fantasy that could not and will not survive the light of day .

Seems like progress for my own healing. Accepting that makes me feel lighter and makes the battle less harder to fight.
So Thanks for sowing that seed in my head and I belive that it is finally blossming

Just wanted you to know that I was thinking about you. Swamped at work for the remainder of the week. I'll check in at night.

Keep the positive energy...and laugh/smile, it really is amazing how doing that can change your outlook.

I think that is an excellent question for Jennifer. I haven't really read about this.

I will say that there are some good posts on reverse babble - basic concept is to deflect from the crazy things that a WS says until the fog lifts. I'll do a quick search for the thread I'm thinking of and bump it up for you.

I don't know if this is the case for all WS but I know that a few hard hitting reality checks cleared it right up for me.

Have you told you DH about MB? There are several couples that post here and it seems to really aid in the recovery process. It seems that H and W don't really get involved in the other ones thread until the marriage is on its way to recovery. Just a warning to you, if your DH posts here, he will get plenty of 2x4's from others...this does help lift the fog too (reality check time).

The search function isn't working for me...getting an error message. I'll try again tomorrow.

Jlr

Yes I did send a link to Dh (thanks for using that ) 2 days after D-day when I started reading on this site . Since then I have resent it a couple of times and he has used it to print questioners read basic concepts etc. not sure if he has scanned the message boards and I have purpously not sent him a direct link to the boards, so that I did not have to worry about hurting him with what I am typing. As things have progressed I am less and less afraid of him being hurt by it 1) becuase these are my feelings, my view of our stich right or wrong 2) its really helped me stand when I felt I was falling and it continues to help by allowing me o educate myself by reading all the good insite you vets provide.
Like I said he is pretty computer savvy so its not unlikely that he has been scanning this thread all along,( I highly doubt it) obviously it woudnt be hard for him to figure out our own story.

Not sure I want him to be hit by 2x4's LOL , I want the fog to lift but I also dont want him beat up in the process. I think I am preachy enough about my own recovery so I have to step back and let him find his own oath to recovery and healing from his emotions of guilt and pain.
I know he is quite tormented by the pain this whole A has caused me. There were days early on where I cried non stop for days. There was so much physical pain for a few days that I could not un-curl from the fetal position. I know he feels really really bad when he sees how much pain I am in. I think since Monday he really has been paying attention to what my issues with the relaionship are and how he can help work on them.
He worked on the ENQ and the session with Jennifer gave us guidelines on how to share itwith each other. So the plan is to do that early next week. Hoping that sets us on a track to (dare I say) recovery.

Wow, a very slow day overall on the discussion boards.


Oh, you don't have to worry about the 2x4's hurting (LOL)...if in a fog your DH won't even realize that's whats happening. He would just think everyone else here was crazy.
If he got a 2x4 and he was out of the fog he would realize it was deserved...meaning that he might have been starting to talk a little foggy again. People here are savy enough to realize when a 2x4 is needed and when its not.

And as far as I know, there have been no busted knee caps.


While this might cause you discomfort, knowing that it torments him, it is a great sign. It shows remorse and key to recovery. An excellent sign.

How was the session with Jennifer this time around? Did she provide you and/or your DH with some useful information?

I'm glad to hear that the positive vibes from the weekend are sticking around...and soon you'll be off for a fun weekend with the kids.

And then a fun weekend WITHOUT the kids.

wmf,

Things will begin to get better and the fog begins to lift as time passes and you do certain activities.

First, if you are meeting his ENs, then that helps. Next, as time does pass, his withdrawals from OW takes place, and he will naturally begin to see what he cannot see during the affair and shortly afterwards - that he does have a good relationship with you and that his investment in that relationship is really what makes things work. So, while you are investing in his ENs, you are somewhat teaching him about this concept and he is seeing some payoff in that regard. Once some time passes, he will begin to see this and start being more motivated to meet yours. It is a natural process.

His guilt is a good sign, as jlr said - this means he is starting to see that you were, are, and will be invested in the marriage. He will begin to see your meeting his ENs now, and then start looking back and the marriage with more realistic eyes and see that you did indeed meet them before, too. You have to know that he has rewritten the marital history to some degree in order to justify his affair - he has told himself that you didn't meet this need or that need, and so he was justified in his affair. That justification will come down and the guilt is a sign that it is coming down.

Once he starts giving to you more, you will start feeling better about the future. I'm not telling you that you will feel great - but you will feel better. You will start to see that this concept of meeting ENs can work, and then you will be able to focus on how to talk to one another better. I have a thread somewhere on bodylanguage, memory and other stuff, and I can't get the search feature to work. But if you search my username you should be able to find it somewhere. I will try to bump it for you. In the thread you'll find tips on how to have relationship talks without the marathon sessions - and this is very important for you two.

Marathons can just kill progress.


I think you will see progress with the coaching, and I already see your posts as calmer and progressing!

SB

I managed to find the thread and bumped it for you!

SB

Thanks SB I missed hearing your advise, I figured you had too many desperate people to rescue so the fact that I had not heard from you in a few days was difficult but at the same time promising in that I could survive and manage without the constant input.

I think I am seeing signs that we may be on the bend here and things could take a turn for the less bumpy.


I do feel better when I see him take the time and effort to meet my needs but the better is short lived. Living on hope alone can be tough some days and I guess thats where the whole concept of sustaning a romantic relationship comes in.
I think when I am doing fine all is well, when I regress either due to triggers or whatever it becomes harder for my H to meet my needs . Sometimes I feel I am more of the stick than the carrot so I have to keep chanting to myself" be the carrot, be the carrot" because in the long run I think that will help me more than the stick.

This past weekend we went away with H ( kids and all) so support H's hobby (racing). It was nice to get away from home and not take to cook or clean. I was looking forward to a relaxing fun outing and Bam! out of no where here comes pain. When we pulled up to check in to the hotel I could not breathe. The visions of him and her checking in to a hotel ( she came here to visit him for 5 days) came flooding into my eyes and tears came running done. H checked in and we went dierctly to dinner ( as planned) and all thru dinner I could not contain myself. I was not sure I could walk into the hotel wven though the kids were with us and be in the same room with him.
Now him seeing my pain you can call that a stick or what ever, but I am mad at myself for not having anticipated that because it kinda ruined the plan for the weekend to be "A" free. So I feel like I failed my mission to put that to the side just for one weekeend. Anyways I got past it and it worked out Ok later but the trigger was pretty strong and it made H have to console me and be sad for me. The old me would have thought yeah attention from H great. The new me thinks not so good as now here is another thing he has to hold my hand thru and pretty soon the stick beatings will outweigh any carrots that I am offering in this reduced state of giving. So the rest of the weekend I tried to be positive and ther efor H so he cvould enjoy the outing which I think worked out OK and he seems pretty happy overall.
This coming weekend we are going away -kids so I am glad that I am more aware of this trigger and will try to deal with it better, the problem is I dont know what else can creep up and take away from the simple joy that I would like to have from just spending time with DH without the memories and pain of A.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with letting him see you hurt. Hurt is not accusatory - unless he does it to himself, which IMO is a good thing! It's just honesty.

Catperson ,

Part of me whats to agree with you in that its not a bad thing because when he saw mw hurting at dinner, I was apologizing for runing the weekend atmosphere and his response to me was that He caused the pain to me so no need for me to apalogize.
So in a way its good, however my concern is if there is a lot of "me hurting" in front of him then thats the overwehelming thought he will think of when he thinks of me and wont want to be near it all the time. The truth is there is a lot of " me hurting" and sometimes I know to expcet it and other times like this where it blindsighted me and I have to learn to balance the hurting and still creating "happiness" when we are together.

Then turn those times into something productive. Ask him to tell you one truth he has never shared. Then you do the same. Use it to get closer to each other, not to blame yourselves or each other.

Thats the skill I need to learn. How to turn around quickly from the triggers and convert the bad and hurtful times into smiles.

wmf,

You need to know that the triggers will become "known" to both of you.

The fact that he knows that HE caused the pain is very good. It means he is coming out of the fog! That is very much in your favor, and he is beginning to understand what it is he has done.

It will not kill him to see your pain. You are right to want to be able to have control of the emotions and not use the trigger events to manipulate him - but when they happen, they happen. Real emotions are okay. If you find yourself using or faking emotions to keep him, or make him cling to you, then you would be in trouble. This was not the case, so you are fine.

The good news is that you worked through a trigger event. What happens is that the next time it will be easier to check into a hotel, and the time after that a little easier, etc. At some point, you might want to make it a purposeful point to "reclaim" hotels as YOURS. In other words, when you face a triggering place or event, make it yours by revisiting it on purpose and creating a new memory there to replace the trigger. You see, places and objects have NO MEMORY - you do. So you can "reclaim" those places by creating new memories there of your own. You did that - you checked into a hotel with your kids and spent a weekend there - so hotels are YOURS again.

The next time you go, you create another new memory on top of that, and erode the OW memory of hotels. Hotels become yours again. Erase her.

That's how I handled triggers. FWIW, I still have a small trigger of a road here in town - she lives on that road. So I make a point to drive it when I can. I see here there now and then, but I drive it on purpose to make it "normal".

SB

The hard part is in allowing only the real emotions to surface and then leave. When you are in the emotion and are getting the attention and remorse you need from WS its hard to see where you have stepped over the line from real emotion to manipulation. Since the hotel thing blindsighted me I made a concious effort to "be the carrot" the rest of the weekend, but I was very upset at myself for not having anticipated it and allowing it to take over me the way it did.

On D-day I thought well, if only WH felt remorse and sorry for what he had done, it would take away all the pain he had caused. Now that I occasionally see that he shows some attention and remorse for the pain he sees in me, nice as that attention feels it really is not the magic bullet to fix it all.

There really is no magic bullet, its a long hard road and I have to help myself more than expect him to help me. Its nice to get the shoulder to cry on from him but the more I travel this road the more I see/realize that using his shoulder even if he offers it really works to my disadvantage. In the long run I need him to see me as the strong independent fun loving adventerous individual that I am and I need to stay away from my own weakness of clingyness and dwelling on pain and blink, wipe my tears and move on.



If this is what de-fogging is all about then I am thankful that he is getting there. Its been 2 months and 3 weeks since D day and I really never thought that I would make it this far. On our D-day marathon session we both argeed to re-evaluate our relationship 3 mths from now (Aug 1st) and see where we are. I honestly never thought I could physcially survive to see that day and yet here I am, a week from that day, still standing (well kinda sitting really ) and its just plain amazing to me that its possible to be here. In my mind it was just a date so far away that all that mattered is that it was not that day and that he would still be there talking tomorrow.

If anybody lurking is reading then I hope that my story gives them hope that you can be in such a dark hopeless world crashing down place and still be alive and breathing 3 months later. I know there are many posters who have it far worse complicated than me but to me this is the worst time in my life that I have ever had to deal with. If this is the inititation fee to pay in order to have a happier rest of my life then so be it.

wmf,

The book I found most helpful at this point was "Relationship Rescue" by ..... Dr. Phil. I know, he isn't the best, but the book helped ME. It framed things in a less emotional way for me, and let me see what I needed to focus on in a way that pointed me in the right direction.

The back of the book also had some questions in it that helped me and my FWH have a few discussions that were GOOD instead of all-affair-all-the-time.

You might want to take a look at it. I did the work in the book, and it made a difference for me - helped me nail some thoughts down in a no-nonsense manner.

My husband actually read parts of it, and wasn't too put off by it. He's not much into self-help, and it isn't all fluff and goo.



I know what you mean about wanting to be strong and present a good front. At your point in recovery, that is very important. It helps during Plan A, and you are doing a very good job from what you've said.

The fact that he is showing signs of understanding the depth of your pain means the walls are coming down. He might be ready to start talking some about things, is he doing that with you at all? Are you at least having your questions answered?

SB