...I would love it if...sound familiar to what I wrote previously? Can you guess where I stole it from? I can tell you that using this termiology and giving my H the option of telling me how he would feel about something really changed our dynamics.


EXACTLY...we are all guilty of trying to filling our EN when dealing with our spouse.

And a good cry is sometimes just what we need to feel better.


Your secret is safe with me.

Coudnt wait till the evening so I been working on the list. Pretty depressing if you ask me. To many needs and the list is starting to look like a nag even to me. You need to show more affection, you need to have more conversations with me, you need to be honest and open with me blah blah blah... I am tiring myself out.

I think I need to stop dealing with this for the day and may be work on the list when I am not so emotionally wrought with this ordeal.

Its not that easy to put it aside and move on with daily tasks. I have set up a babysitter for tonight which is pretty rare thing for us. Going to be less rare going forward but very rare until D day. H has is super busy at priority #1 (WORK) all day so I am not even sure he will be here while the babysiter is availbe to entertain the kids.(Have not had a chance to tell him that I set it up) and I think it will end up being me and my thoughts alone this evening for 3 hours .

I need the 3 hours of relaxing but I cant visulaze them being happy. I was really hoping that H would come home and kids would be gone and it would be a great oppurtunity to get him caught up on my current frame of mind.
Then again its better that he is spared this temporary insanity (assuming its temporary) and that our talk will happen when I am less un-happy . May be just may be he will make it home at a reasonable hour, once again setting up a glimmer of hope that he isreally intersted in seeing this work.

OK, a couple things here.

Your EN list won't be too long. Remember your need is very general (such as affection, open & honest (O&H), conversation, etc.). Have you read HNHN (His Needs, Her Needs)? I think this book covers EN's better than SAA. Your EN are 5, maybe 6...but if you get 6 EN then your H gets 6 needs.

How those needs can be filled is a longer list. On the fulfilling of those needs you can implement Jennifer's tactic of "I would love it if...". What you fill it in with are specifics of how your H can best meet this need.

EXAMPLE: Affection..."I would really love it if you could hold my hand while we are out walking with the kids."

This let's your H know what he can do that fills your EN.


You need breaks from working thru the A. Think about what you did before that would make you happy. Pick up a book, rent a good movie, go for a walk...you get the idea. Make sure you still have fun and make sure you have fun with your H.


Being O&H works both ways girl. You have to let him know. Right now you are setting him to fail tonight. He can't be there for you if you haven't let him know that you need him.

Yes, your H should know these things, that coming home at a decent time after work should be his top priority. He is in the habit of doing what HE wants. The Harley's talk about creating new habits...right now he doesn't know this is a habit (of working late) that needs to change.

Can you call your H and ask him if he can come home for a little date night with you? No talk of the A tonight. Just enjoy yourselves...how did you enjoy your time together before kids?

Are you getting 15 hours a week together alone? No talk of A during this time.

I think your list would be more effective if you stepped back and visualized what an ideal marriage would be like for you. Make it about YOU, not him. No 'I need YOU to..." but instead "I would like my partner to give me a foot rub once a week because of my plantar fasciitis and sore feet." That way, you're not nagging at him, you're being open and honest about what would make YOU happy. Then he can decide if that's something he can do for you.

How did the night go for you?

Well I kind of ending up with plan ( without having read ur post yet) Called H and told him that I had babysitter in place and that we would have 3 un-interrupted hours. He siad he would try to bug out of work in the next 5 minutes and head home. Made me smile a little and feel more positive.
I guess I was falling into the trap of being my "female" self and expecting him to read my mind an dcome homw cause thats waht I was thinking, it was so much better when I knew he wanted to do it cause it was clear that thats waht i wanted instead of him havign to be a mind reader.

Ofcaouse I thought we would have a nice relaxing evening with no A talk, but if you see my posts for the last few days you can tell something was brewing and there was definately lots on my mind that I had not comuunicated with H for athe ast 10 days or so. So it was not a R&R session that i imagined. but instead turned into a marathon talk fest lasting until 2 am when we were both spent. Would I have liked 3 hours of reast and happiness yes. Am I glad that we talked for so many hours absolutely.
It was not the mosth heliest disussion ever lost sof anger, resentemts ans LBs but at the same time lots of brutal honesty.
To today we are both licking our wounds, having cleared the air on alot of isssues with each of us and back on track to preparing for Jennifers next seesion with us Tuesday night.

As a follow up on the marathon session couple of things I learned
1) Its infinatley better to speak and communicate what you are thiking ( even if what you ahve to say might hurt the other person) than to make the other person fell shut out of your mind and let anger and resentment fester.
2) My H really really wants to be here and I have to give myself a chance to accepta nd belive that he is here cause he wants me and I am not his by default choice or choice cause he really cant choose OW.
3) I do a poorjob of communicating to my H what i really want from him because I dont want to live with teh guilt of him having to do anythgin for me. Which in on iteslt is setting me up for faliaure. So I need to "speak: to him with works what I need and then give him a chance to fulfil it if he so desires.

So short version back on track today, awaiting tomorrow

Sounds like a positive night, despite how it might have gone down. I'll check back later. I've had a family emergency that I'm trying to work out so short on time.

Hang in there.

Awesome! The one thing I always tell everyone...communication is king. It trumps everything. I wish I could do it as well as you have!

wmf,

There is a balance to this recovery process.

The marathon talks have advantages and disadvantages. They do clear the air, but if they happen too often, they end up just wearing everyone out. Don't let them become a habit, because he will end up avoiding alone time with you, for fear that the alone time will become a marathon relationship talk. You need to be sure that those talks are limited in nature and focus, and that you let things lie after a time. The two of you need to agree on some rules for the talks, or you will find yourselves worn thin and frazzled.

And he will soon stop responding - because they will be fruitless and endless. You will find yourself feeling frustrated and crazed.




The idea that he needs time to get over the OW is true. However, that doesn't mean you allow him to simply pine over her, either. The reality is that he has chosen you, and has chosen the marriage. It isn't a free pass to sit and fantasize over "love lost". That relationship was wrong, and not real love. His withdrawal time needs to include consequences - which means that he does need to see your pain. If he does not realize the pain he caused, and has no real consequences - then the Plan A you have done becomes you being a doormat. The perfect setup for you building resentment.

There is a carrot and a stick to Plan A.

I believe he is basically a good guy, or you would not be attempting to recover the marriage.

But if you don't allow him to pay the consequences, and basically step back so he can wallow in "his pain over the OW", then you are not understanding that he doesn't, and shouldn't, be allowed that luxury. You shouldn't be afraid to speak your mind. That doesn't mean you have to lovebust, or punish him. But you CAN factually state things, and you CAN go about recovering the marriage with the consequences falling where they may.

It is what it is, and he has a price to pay. Part of that is the simple fact that he cannot avoid seeing the pain he has cause you and the family, and he cannot avoid knowing that the OW is NOT THE GREATEST THING THAT EVER ENTERED HIS LIFE.

Reality bites. You are in his life, and while he is in withdrawal, you DO NOT NEED TO CATER TO HIS WITHDRAWAL PAIN. You do want to focus on your positive self improvements, making yourself look good, meeting his marital needs, etc.

But don't you DARE enter the "poor little WH, you lost the love of your life" pity party.

Because that OW was NOT the love of his life, and what he had with her was NOT LOVE. Do not for one second believe that it was.

It was, always was, a FANTASY.

A FANTASY. It was disneyland - a dream - NOT REAL. It could never have been real.

Because once the light of day was shined on it

IT DIED.

Crap like that melts in the light, wmf.

There's a reason for it.

IT IS NOT LOVE.


Do not forget that.


That's why he is at home, with you. He knows where he belongs.


Where the love is real.


So do not feed that pity party. When he is pining for her, do your damndest to remind him to look at the prize you ARE. Don't help him feel sorry for himself.

Remind him of why he came home - because of the REAL love right there.

And hit him HARD with the stick.


SB

Thanks Schoolbus

You always seem to know the right thing to say to snap me out of it. That is exactly what I was doing and more so by compounding the issue by making it reduce my own slef worth and increase my pain because I did not measure up ( in my own self imposed scale).


I agree with you on wearing us thin and frazzeled but we had not have a marathon seesion for about 3 weeks and I will make sure we dont have one for alteast another 2-3 weeks if one is needed at all. In fact there are 2 positive plans in place. We were completely and utterly exhaused all day Sat and actually had to take naps in the day in order to survive the day.

1) this weekend Fr-Sun we are doing on a family outing. H has a hobby that he loves to pursue in the summer and we as a family will join him, we have a hotel with a pool so we will drive there about an hour from home and spend 3 days where he does what gives him joy and we (kids and I) are there for him while we spend the rest of the time relaxing and having summer fun. Its not my thing so I dont particpate directly but I know he appreciates me being there to support him and share his expernce with me.

2) The next week my sis will keep the kids and for the 1st time in a long long long time we will be taking a kid free 5 day break. Its my birthday gift to him and we are making no plans other than to agree to make no plans. We get in the car and like old times (pre kids) set off to unknown drivable destinations and find places to stay and just explore and be. So looking forward to that coming up on the next week Friday. Kids get a vcation from us and we get alone time ( Yipeeeee)


The good part of the marathon session was that H tried his darnest to try to convince me that he loved me. I conveyed to him that I felt unloved and low on his list of priorities. Also he made some attemps at signalling to me that he realises that what he had was fantasy and that it would not survive the light of day. My one cause for sadness was that he had to actally think about choosing between me and her. I know it only took him a day to decide and so I am in a far better situation that other posters here, nevertheless I am not sure that the pain is any less of feeling as may be I am not the 1st choice.

H tried to convince me that in mind time the decision was not so much between me and her but more on whether he though that things could change between us or not. He felt so unloved and un cared for by me that he was not sure that things could be better. So I have to accept that and let it heal my wound of thinking he is here for reasons other than simply wanting me. I have to accept that my old behaviour would not have made him ( or many other mates) want me and that my new and awake self ( the real me) is great and he does want it. I know I am saying the words but I have a long way to go towards getting there.

Thanks catperson
I am not sure I did in the best manner but I am gald it was done. Part of the communication feedback I got from H is that even thought some times I communicate to him what I want when I am feeling better I tend to give him messags that say "oh honey you dont need to do that any more I feel better about it". so he takes that to mean that it is no longer an issue for me and he does not need to do anything about it. Meanwhile the "female me" is brewing and brooding and angry that he has not done it so my logical side says it myust be because I am not loved by him or that I am low on his priority list. He does not care about me enough to do it reinforcing my sadness and perception of my unloving relationship .

I some what agree with his assement that I tend to say things that might lead him to think that I dont need himt to do it but I thought about why I do that and I think its because I dont want to add to his plate. I love him so I dont want him to have to "work" at making me happy so momentarily I might feel guilt that he has to do something for me but I need to to Get over it. Obvioulsy in the end the overriding feeling for me is anger and resetmnet that he did not do it, not guilt that I made him do it.

So from now one, checking my self everytime I say " I would love it if you would --------" and making sure that it is at no point in subsequent days or weeks followed up by " oh dont worry about it, its too much work for you, just you willing to do it is enough" so I am not sabotaging my own happiness and that excuse or cause for my unhappiness does not exist.

Honey, I am Queen of this thinking. I do everything so that I don't have to make H do anything for me. And it has backfired in 30 years of his learned entitlement. He never answers the phone. He never answers the door. He never puts his plates in the sink, let alone the dishwasher. I never do what I want if it's going to interfere with what HE wants. Horrible way to live! Just last night, after spending a whole day working on the car he's rebuilding for our D17, my feet were so sore (I have plantar fasciitis) I could barely stand up. And it took me 30 minutes to get up the courage to ask him to rub my feet. He did, but he's spent 30 years NOT rubbing my feet, so that he was a little put out that I would ask him - direct result of me not wanting to add to his plate. See how it accumulates?

SB

I re read your post and it occured to me that I am the one that this needs to sink in to. The more I think about it the more I think it is likely that he kinda already is on the way to believing that. I am the one who is having a hard time letting the betrayal allow me the pleasure of trusting myself and the desire for me in his eyes. Its not that I have no self worth or dont feel desirable, I just question his desire for me and I think as time passes and he is still here and happy about being here it may finally sink in to me . In th meantime I am the one who needs to be reminded "of why he came home - because of the REAL love right there."

Now that you realize this you can create a new style of asking for what you need from your H. It's just plain silly to feel guilty having your H do anything for you. He LOVES YOU and wants to know what he can do make you feel good.

Mind readers - haven't met one yet.


And never again will it be a long, long, long time of taking a kid free vacation together. Maybe you should underline that little section of SAA...vacation time alone, every year. Doesn't sound like a bad thing from anyone's stand point. Enjoy each other.


There is no decision here. YOU are his WIFE.

YOU are the one he LOVES.

There is no comparision between you and the OW. She is nothing.

You are EVERYTHING.

Thanks Jlr
your post is very encouraging and positive. Its like a mantra I have to keep repeating to myself. There is no decision, he chooses to be here because I can make him happy and I will.he will do the same for me and In return we will be happy together.

And also remember that this is also your choice.

To recover you marriage.

To build a better marriage.

To have the marriage filled with LOVE and JOY.

How have you been feeling after the strain of Friday night?

Queen sounds good no matter how the title is obtained LOL. Its kinda sad that women tend to do this to themselves. I guess we really are from a different planet than men ! I really have to focus on learning to allow H to do things and not assume all the responsibility in this relationship.

I am doing good now that the exhaustion from the marathon session is almost faded away. We have a session with Jennifer scheduled for tomorrow. I am hoping that it will go better for me than the 1st one. I did not see the benefits that I had envisioned in the 1st one. I think I expected too much. So I am going to spend some time between now and then trying to figure out what my issues are that I thnk MC can help with and see how I can get better results from my phone call tomorrow.

Also H has been making genuine attempts at brutal honestly and taking care of what I think will help me . One of the issues I was brewing was the way NC was established. Once he decided that he was going to work on this with me, he made a long ( 1hr apprx) phone call to let OW know his decision. She was expecting him to start a new life with him and had become quite invested in it ( she is single ) and was expecting him to be there for her and meet his needs. I was not present during the phone call but was aware that it took place.

Until few weeks ago I thought that was it. Recently H confeesed to me that it was followed up with a somewhat angry / hurt email from OW the next day saying that she felt hurt that he did not give her enough time nor explanation of why she was being rejected in favor of me. She expressed that he was now betraying her and not only hurt me but has now hurt her. But nevertheless she wanted him to be happy so she wished him well inspite of her pain and that she was always worried that she was in danger of being left hearbroken. In response H wrote and mailed her a letter 2 -3 days later( she lives overseas) saying thet he is sorry did not mean to hurt her . He needs to sort things out with himself and us before he can commit to being in a realtionship me or otherwise and that he is sorry for having put her thru this.

After he told me all this, I felt even more unsecure reagrding the NC situation based on what I have read and how it needed to be done. Also I now realize that I thought NC was 2 days after D day but then I become aware that it really took another week to take effect. How ever I was not privy to having read the email nor the letter in response( it was typed and then postal mailed.
I had expressed to H several weeks back when he revealed this to me that I would be intersted in seeing both of those. He was relucant to open up doors he thought were shut but it continued to re-inforce to me that he chose to protect and priortize her over me. He did not want to give me any info about her ( name adddres etc. not that I specifically asked) He refereedto her as this person. I had enever seend any other communctaion nor asked to see any. Most of it was phone but there were some emails.

I think Fridays discussion brought this issue up as another example of how I feel like I am on a low priority with him and he tried to convince me that it was not so but I think I needed action and not words.
So today
I get both a copy of the email and a copy of the letter forwarded to me. Hard to get thru reading and accepting but huge relief for me. Here how him sending me the letters helped
1) He showed me that he cares enough to do what I need
2) Knowing the content of the letter allows me to stop imagaing all the stuff that is only my fantasy and deal with only what was really said.
3) Gives me a better insight into what he was really feeling wand what his honest thoughts were as he had no fear that it would be read by me.
4) The content of both let me know that the NC is really in effect and there are no immediate plans on either end to re-open contact so I no longer feel the need to re-do the NC . This is a huge benefit as it goes a small way towards re-estabilishing trust. ( I'd like to add for the benefit of any body reading Trusting but keeping eyes open )

And what I am feeling right now is that I can deal with it what ever the path is. I know this is probably a temporary high since I have so many lows along the way but the way I see it any positive sign is a positive sign. So I plan of writing H a note to expess my Thanks to him for sending me both of those as I know it was hard for him to have to re-vist his own wounds in order to care for mine.

I recall you asking for the magic pill but there is none. What I want to remind you is that from that one session your H's eyes were opened to some things (at least I think I recall reading that from your post).

One or two sessions is not going to fix everything. This is going to be a long, hard process. And as you can imagine you are going to have high's and low's. Your H is going to have high's and low's. I'm not saying you'll need tons of sessions, just keep in mind that it won't just be all OK after talking with Jennifer.


I'm glad that your H took this action.

I don't want to put any thoughts in your head, but are you able to have access to his email where you can indepedently check to ensure NC is indeed in place. Not that I am implying NC was or will be broken, just as a venue for you to "trust but verify".

There will be days when you will be shaky. Those are days you can "trust but verify" and feel more confidence to see NC is still intact.

I know some here have advocated a key logger...then you would know if he has a secret account.

The same "trust but verify" is true for his phone. You should be able to check the call log (easy enough to do via the internet) at any time.


And you will.

You have so much STRENGTH.


Sounds like a wonderful idea. I'm guessing your H likes words of affirmation and this is a great way for you to deposit some love units.

I was originally expecting a magic pill. Then I was expecting her to lift and clear his fog immediately. Neither of which happened at the end of call 1. I realise the time aspect but as long as I see progress in every session then I'll keep going. I actually gets tons of helpful advise and inspiration from reading helpful posts from you and SB and I think if I can communicate effectively with H then the progress continues. So far we are on the track of brutal honestly. If we can do that without killing each other along the way that will be nice.
I think what is dawning on me is what jennufer said early on in the call, she is a coach not a counseller so I have to see the phone calls as an oppurtunity to learn a new skill. when I hang up with phone from MC no results will be there cause I/WE have not applied any of our newly learned skills ( assuming she can get anythign thru our thick heads LOL). So progress should come during the week after the call and thats how I need to gauge it. So I am better prepared for that shift in process this week.


Good point and I am neither afraid/nor offended by your suggestion that NC was/will/can be broken. We are both fairly computer Savvy so no amount of computer detecting on either part can help becuase we both know and can work our way around "computer stuff". I do have those thoughts in my head ( sometimes) but I can check his emails if I want and I also know that he may use email's un checable by me and so it defeats the purpose of scanning what is not hidden.
Here is what I do know and I write this it occurs to me that I should "speak" this to my H as well. I am commited to our relationship together if he is soley commited to me. If his own explanation in his own head for having the A was that I did not fill his needs and made him feel unloved and uncared for , I sure am doing my darnest to rectify that. I do a stauts check with him on how he feels my actions are towards him, is there anything I can do better or more of and constantly lookign for feedback. From what I gather he seems to be happy currently . I havenot and cannot taken his past pain of neglect for a long time away, but we were able to identify the cause. It was something that happned to be prior to meeting him that kept me unhappy and ashamed for a long time . But I think I am now released the guilt of that so I no longer need to be miserable nor do I need to suck the joy out of everyone around me.So I am slowly but surely replacing old pain with more recent memeory and love and joy. That being said if in the current frame of my giving in this realtionship (foggy brain or not) he still needs to fill ANY other needs that he has not communicated to me and continues contact with OW or anyone else for that matter guess what!
He needs to leave my reality and proceed with his fantasy of what his reality can be and I will be in plan B for 1 or 2 days just to rethink my position so as to not be in plan D on day 1.
But certainly no Plan A and if my predition is accurate on my own behaviour barely any plan B.
No anger ( well a small amount) but mostly just rational the side of me going dont waste my life and time fixing something I cant fix at the cost of my life. That is when I will factor in the kids and see how long plan B needs to be for their sakes.