Well damn.

I thought we'd connect tonight, you know catch up and talk?

He suggested I do it right after I got back. He was going to go work out with me this evening but at the last minute insisted I take the kids.

So i take them and we have a good time. I brought him back his favorite dinner and he asked for a pack of cigarettes and i bought him a whole carton. I hate his smoking, but hate to be a nag more.

Just trying to be nice, ya know? Give him a few deposits.

Soon as I get back he informs me he's going out to do laundry. We have a perfectly good working washer and dryer here but it has backed up this week as our well was out for three days. I offered to go with him, he said no, it was ok, he'd handle it.

He kissed me on the cheek on the way out.

needless to say we didn't get to talk.

then...

I'm thinking I could at least get some work done. Got the kids all fed, bathed and to bed, even the baby so I was going to scan more documents. His computer has the scanner.

I noticed he had his yahoo up and it had a message. so i looked.

and yes I snooped. Something he's told me he really hates.

Something I told him I wouldn't do any more. I had a real problem with jealousy, something he HATES early on. One of his female freinds sent him naked, VERY naked pics of her self and he hid them from me. He did finally tell me about them, i didn't find them. I was curious why he hid them, but more bemused than mad.

He said he was surprised i wasn't mad. His previous wife would NEVER have let him have those pics. I kissed him and said I was sad that he didn't share them with me right away, but that I trusted him and loved him and that as long as things were solid between us, what 'we' looked at would only make us stronger, no matter who it was.

Then later, we start falling apart. No more talking. no more RC. No more SF. I don't know what i've done wrong! I ask, he says it's just 'him'. he's now 40 and just doesn't have a libido any more. I'm skeptical. 3x a day for months then nothing?? what gives? but i am supportive if frustrated.

Then I find out he's been chatting with some girl, a redhead on line. Plans to meet her at "spring war" an amtgard event. I find out, and call him on it, VERY upset. He gets VERY angry at me for snooping and not trusting him. I thought you TRUSTED me!! He goes to spring war. Tells me when he gets back that it was uneventful. doesn't mention anything else.

So leap forward 8 months. Yahoo messenger blinking tonight, remember?

It's from a 21 yr old girl. Redhead. he's wild, i mean WILD about redheads. He has been known to tell them, "you are redheaded? omg, i think my heart just stopped."

it appears she's been chatting with him for some time. invited him to her 21st birthday. she's obviously attracted to him. offered to party with him. he said he would like to, but has made excuses like he was working that weekend. She has been asking him over for some time, but he appears to be making excuses via the business.

SO, now that I've violated our sacred trust, and broken my promise never to snoop on him again, might as well go whole hog. I looked at the logs. They have been chatting for about five months. Doesn't look like they've done anything yet, but he sees her at Amtgard Events (midevil reenactment stuff like ren faire) of which he is a major part. He's been playing Amtgard for over 19 years and it's something he enjoys. I've always wanted to join him and have for a few events. mostly he goes by himself. He specifically doesn't invite me. Guess i know why now.

In five months of chatting, talking about showers and songs and Disney and basically flirting, he's never once mentioned me. mentioned the kids plenty, but not me. He mentioned he was planning a trip to Disney World this year, that I'M paying for (grrrr) and said he wished he could take her.

I see.

oh lord, now what? If i mention it to him, I've betrayed his trust. If I don't, I'm scared he'll have an affair, just when I'm trying to put us back together again.

I have chatted with people on line, but ALWAYS talked to him about every one. always got his permission. always shared what they said with him. And he's the one that suggested I chat with other people! Guess I know why.

Now it seems he's got this secret beautiful 21 yr old redhead in lust with him. How on earth can I compete with that?

And what do i say when he gets back from doing laundry? If that is even where he is...

And here I've been telling everyone here on MB that he is NOT having an affair and I totally TRUST him. which i did. till just five minutes ago.

NOW WHAT?? he'll be back in an hour. I think...

There is always a silver lining...

talking to my brother about this -

When i mentioned that in all these months DH never mentioned me I get:



well yeah, darnit

and

Thanks ... he always makes me feel better when life gets at it's worst. Still don't know what i'm going to do/say when DH gets back.

Hi Honey! ready to talk about our relationship yet? Can we start with this affair you've been contemplating with the redhead?

it might explain however, why DH has been really ON my case, saying that i'm lying all the time. And I haven't been, so i couldn't for the life of me figure out where this was coming from.

Methinks mylord doth protest too much...

I would just message her back, letting her know that you are Mrs. Raven, and you don't appreciate her being involved with your husband. Let her know that you are going to make your marriage work, and that she is not welcome to be the third wheel.

WH will be mad, and that may not be enough to stop things, but she can never say after that she didn't know. Given her youth and that he has probably lied to her about his marital status, there is at least a small chance she will back down.

It wouldn't solve the huge problem that exists with WH, but it will buy you a little time to get in the "plan" groove.

Thanks for the reply Neak.

I'll sleep on it and figure it out tomorrow.

If what he looks at saddens you, it is not beneficial to your marriage.


And......if he is upset that you found out the truth about his EA, that just might indicate that he knew he was doing something he should not do. Why should you trust him? What is he doing to earn your trust? HE doesn't trust YOU???? EXCUSE ME!!


And HE thinks YOU should trust HIM??????




I'm sure Little Miss CyberSlut thinks he got those children at some Baby Sale at a store in the mall.



When we act like we are responsible adults, we don't have to worry about people finding out our secrets. So, if he respects your marriage, he doesn't do this stuff and he doesn't risk being caught.

Perhaps he needs to learn about honesty and respecting one's spouse. Seems like he has a serious case of 'Taker' syndrome.



This is why the internet can be so detrimental to many marriages.




I really don't have any advice....but his choices and his attitudes, as you portray them, just get to me. I'm not sure he has a clue what marriage is supposed to be like.

raven11 - Conflict avoider, eh?


Lacking any further information, it sounds as though your husband likes to be the "knight," and considers adultery in his mind to ONLY be physical sex. He either does not understand or chooses to ignore that Emotional Affairs are real.

There is really very little help that can be offered unless you get to the point where you are ready for confrontation with your husband, with the objective of you BOTH learing about Emotional Needs, Emotional Affairs, Openness and Honesty in your marriage, etc.

Suffice it to say that his not wanting you to go to the "reinactments" with him is so the he CAN be "Free to flirt" or more in direct violation of the most basic tenet of marriage; "keeping myself ONLY unto you, until death do us part."

Good luck raven, but if you won't fight for your marriage, there is little that anyone can do other than to listen to what you right and feel sorry for the plight you find your marriage in.

I suspect, though, that you are afraid, and you let your fear control you and your actions and reactions to your husband's unfaithfulness to you and the marriage.

boy are your right about that. I called him at 1230. he was still doing laundry - slow dryers. He seemed ok. I waited up till 2am. Finally went to bed.

Don't know what time he got home. I woke up about 4am and realized he was home. I tried to cuddle up next to him in the bed. He woke with a start - "what! what! what do you need me to do? what do you want?" i said "nothing honey, i'm just glad you are home safe. i was worried about you". He pulled away, rolled over away from me, got to the far side of the bed and went to sleep again. I've gotten good at learning to hide my tears. I got up with the baby at 5am. I was so stressed I didn't know what to do.

So i did what I always do when i'm stressed, I clean. Any body else do that?

He's always told me that the light doesn't bother him. and it never has before, so i turned on one of the bedroom lights to clean. I was cleaning the whole upstairs (about 2300 sq feet of it) when the baby wanted to go back to sleep. Thanks to dad's spoiling of king baby (smile!) he sleeps best on mom's side of the bed. So i put him down there. It woke up DH, who wanted to know why I wanted him awake. I don't honey, go back to sleep, i'm just putting the baby down.

He got up anyway, cranky and grumpy. "why are all the lights on?"
"I didn't think it bothered you sweetie. I'll turn them off if you want." "No. I'm up now." he smoked a ciggerette and sat in his chair, staring into space. "what are you all pissed off about?" he knows me pretty well.

I just wanted to clean and make it nice for you when you woke up. Partially true.

Said his jaw woke him up. He had six teeth pulled on monday and he's been in lots of pain. another reason i've been giving him lots of love and affection.

Then again, he's been telling his online girl that he'll look much better the next time she sees him. I saved for two YEARS to get his bad teeth replaced. In his 20's he went thru a meth period, (no he's not a druggy for the last 20 years) so he teeth got horrible and painful. He's been so self concious about it, I gave him a gift certificate 'good for a new grill' for christmas.

Did i mention that just last week he told said girl that he might hire her as his secretary? he needs a secretary? We work the business together and I tell ya, as i do all the paperwork and play CEO, CFO and COO, if anybody needs a dang secretary it's ME. He mostly just does the installs and helps with inbound sales calls helps me out.

Back to his teeth - This is one of the main reasons he tells me he doesn't want to deal with 'us'. because he's in so much pain. BUT...

he spends hours a day playing with the baby, talking to the baby, throwing him up in the air, wrestling with the kids etc. How much more would it take for him to cuddle with me? give em a hug?

too much pain?

He said 'are you going to come back to bed?' I said 'if it would help your pain and if you would like me there, i'd love to' he said 'you need your sleep, L***' I hate it when he uses my name instead of calling me honey or something. it makes me feel unloved. Again I repeated 'if you want me there, i'd come to bed'. He said nothing and just went back to bed.

How can I possibly put my foot down about his EA when doing so will just seal the destruction of my marriage and him leaving with the baby?

I don't dare say anything.

I guess all that is left to do is to write him a chat note (how we talk these days) and say that I understand that he was busy yesterday but that I would still like to talk to him about us today if he can find the time.

I know I sound like a weenie. But i'm scared to lose the kids and him if i push too hard.

ok, raven, it is not a "violation of trust" to snoop on your husband. It is a violation of trust, in the very worst way, to committ adultery. If you have made a stupid promise to not snoop on this VERY UNTRUSTWORTHY MAN, then you need to drop that TODAY. That is ridiculous!! No one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. You have a right to know each and every word he utters on that computer, since this is about your life.

You should not trust your husband because he is untrustworthy.

Your H is clearly having an affair and you must do something to stop him. Putting your head in the sand and acting like you are the guilty party for CATCHING HIM is making things WORSE!

Snooping is a VIRTUE if it is done to protect you. It is not lack of trust that ruins marriage, but lack of boundaries.

I would suggest installing spyware on his computer and then busting him when you have the goods.

you surely did not buy this ridiculous and inane cover story, did you? Raven, I see you as huge part of the problem here. This problem will not be solved if you pretend it is not happening. Do your children not deserve it? Can you not lift a finger to save their family from your H's adultery?

Are you kidding me, raven? You are sealing the destruction of your marriage by DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about your husbands affair. Do you understand that adultery ruins marriages? You are actually ENABLING his affair and contributing to the demise of your own children's family. Why would you do this? Do you not feel even a little obligated to protect them? Do you KNOW how devastating divorce is to children? To you?

Why would you not lift a finger to save your marriage and help your H be a better man? Why would you help him BE a BAD MAN??

What you are doing is the equivalent of buying booze for a chronic alcoholic and keeping him DRUNK, in the fear he will get mad if you don't. What you don't seem to realize is that it is his drunkeness that is destroying your marriage. Your marriage can survive his temporary anger, it CANNOT SURVIVE AN AFFAIR.

Just a heads up.

Raven is not married to this man.

They are shacking up together.


From EN board.

Mel,

I am not sure if having all the particulars matters in your advice giving or not.

I just feel the need to put them all out there.

raven is not "married".

He moved in with her less than 2 years ago.

They have 6 children between them.

He puts that he is "single" on his internet profiles.

She wants to be referred to as his "wife" but he won't do that.

She says that they have counseled with Steve Harley.

I was posting to her on EN...but I was not comfortable with it so I asked for help from others.


She thinks that chatting with men online is going to make her feel better about her live-in.

committed


Ooops...I see that someone told you already. My bad.

Raven, I read your thread on EN. There are some serious problems in your relationship (which is not a marriage - you are simply living together and paying his bills); when both of you are playing around online it has reached the level of dysfunctional.

Chatting with men online and looking forward to a stranger's emails in your inbox is not going to make you feel better about the fact that the man you live with, whose dental work you have paid for, is doing the same thing. Regain your dignity and stop it now by changing your email address.

Why are you allowing him to make all the decisions about how *your* emotional needs should be met? He tells you that he won't meet your needs, to get someone else to meet them, and that's ok with you?

You come across as very, very afraid and insecure - and not just because the man you live with is a liar and a sneak, but because you do not feel worthy. Why is that? Why are you willing to settle for what should not be settled for?

What are you doing to shore up your own confidence? Exercising? Eating well? Dressing better? Educating yourself? Do something for yourself that does not involve the computer and strange men!

Personally....I would consult a lawyer to see about your part in the business you have and child support. There are serious legal ramifications to living together without the benefit of marriage, despite neither of you being "particularly interested in what the state thinks".

One final note: Do not allow yourself to be made to feel inferior to a 21 year old redhead who attends Ren Faires and chases after older men. If she were really all that, she would be sticking to someone her own age - and she would probably be out at the clubs or at parties where your H would not be welcome - too old.

ETA: How do you work 20 hour days for the business, care for an infant, and still manage to homeschool your 5 other children? Sorry, but something's got to give.

PK

Raven said this in the EN forum:

. I have my tubes tied, much to his distress as he wanted more kids. Two of them are his. four are mine.
2. I would NOT have had this baby except he BEGGED me to. I had already had 4 C sections before, Dr. Advised against another. I had several miscarriages before I had this one. it was a VERY stressful pregnancy on me in which i had pre-eclampsia and other issues. He knew that I had a huge chance of not living thru this pregnancy but begged me to have a baby with him anyway as he wanted another child.
3. I PAY FOR EVERYTHING
4. I owned both the business I gave him and the Business we both worked before we met.
5. I am the one working 20 hour days for the business while he spends 4-6 hours per day watching movies, playing with the kids and playing with the baby. I am responsible for 100% of the homeschooling. He was supposed to teach 1/2 the classes but after a week, blew it off.
6. Lately he's been doing less and less with the business as he spends his time watching various videos on 'silly things' on You Tube and "gorilla mask" and such and playing Disney Scene it games with his new GF online.
7. He says that he knows he needs to work harder and feels bad that I have to do all the work. He promises to try harder and asked me to 'get on him' when he's sluffing off. I feel really uncomfortable nagging him about not working.
8. I have raised EVERY one of my children ALONE without a CENT of child support from anyone. Ever."


This woman, RAVEN sadly met three loser men and had kids with all of them. She gave in to this man wanting a kid and had another. She seems to pick worthless men (looks like to me) who won't work and probably use her...to have children with and try and "please" these dirtbag men to raise her self worth.

They dont pay a dollar of child support (according to her post) and neither will this man apparantly. This man won't work or anything. He is no prize, but Raven feels so bad about herself that her self esteem revolves around this lazy man loving HER. I feel sorry that she does not simply love herself on her own.

It never works to hold off loving yourself until you find a partner to "LOVE" you. Then, if you depend on another person to give you your self worth, it is then that you are used, used, abused, and used some more by other people. I believe Raven is being used but does not see it yet. I hope she will see it soon.

Raven, get some counseling to raise your self esteem and find out why you are putting up with these types of men!!!!

Raven,

I'm no expert and I wouldn't consider myself a veteran on this site.

Hower, I think Foreverhers has hit the nail on the head when he said you are a conflict avoider.

In retrospect of my own situation.... I'm a conflict avoider as well. So the advice I give is from the perspective of my experience and the mistakes I've made in my relationship with my wayward wife.

It's fear that keeps you from conflict. Fear that doing something to upset your husband will make him run away from you. So you do nothing... and wait... and hope... and fret...

But if you do nothing I gurantee.... nothing will happen to improve your marriage or your relationship. And the very thing that you fear (loosing your husband) may very well come to be a reality because you did nothing.

Here's a quick picture of your thought process:

Do somthing = loose husband

Do Nothing = loose husband

In my opinion only one of those actions is certain... If you continue to do nothing you will loose your husband.


I did the same thing... When my wife did somthing that I didn't like... I ignored it... I didn't want to confront her about it because she would be abrasive and I knew it would be an un-pleasant confrontation.

In retrospect... By not confronting her I enabled her to continue the very behavior that I didn't like...

For example... flirting... She would flirt with another man... she would look over her shoulder to see my reaction... because I didn't tell her how much I didn't like that behavior she assumed that I was ok with it.(Even though I wasn't) In reality what I was doing was avoiding a fight and enabling her to continue.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

I had a boundary... that flirting with other men hurt my feelings and I didn't like it. But I didn't do anything to show her that boundary, so she exploited the boundary because it wasn't defined.

Here's a word picture to help understand.... It's like the difference between a yard with a fence and one without... you know there is a property line. The fence makes it visible and defined to everyone. The yard without the fence still has a property line. But because it's not visable, the neighbors might let their dog poop in your yard... It's hard for the neighbor to exploit the owner of the fenced yard and say..."oops I didn't know" But it's real easy for the neighbor to exploit the owner of the property without a fence.

That's why radical honesty is so important in a relationsip. You have to tell him that he's doing something that hurts you. You have to define your boundary to him. He know's there's a property line but it hasn't been verbalized. He keeps pushing it closer to the house and your yard keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Hope this helps...

Amazin

oh shoot! Thanks for the heads up, ba109 and commie.

Raven, since you are just shacking up, I withdraw all of my points. This man is a free agent and can do what he wants. He is not committed to you in any way. He is free to pursue other women.

Men do not respect women that come at a cheap and easy price as you can see. Since you place no value on yourself and require no committment in order to put out, he places no value on you either. As my mother wisely told me, never put out for free. Hopefully you can see how that advice would have saved you much grief had you followed it. As with most shack up situations, he is just there until something better comes along.

Here is Dr. Harleys article on living together: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025_qa.html

well goodness

I guess that since we lived together before marriage (like now) and NOBODY else here ever did that, I'd better get my advice elsewhere.

I do appreciate the helpful comments, and I do see your points.

Before WHAT marriage? You are not married, dear. He has no such intentions.

Raven, more conflict avoidance, eh?

Don't you think it's about time (after 6 children) that you stop approaching life from the perspective of a teenager?

So tell us WHY you had 4 children previously, why you had 2 children with this man, and STILL you are not married?

I think it seems obvious that faith doesn't play much of role, if any, in your marriage, so what exactly IS the "marriage model" you are teaching your children?

It's very easy to "make babies." It's very easy to "shack up" without the BONDS of marriage.

So why do you think your "husband" is behaving as if he is single, with you "on the side?"

Do you really want some help or don't you?

Raven11,
You keep looking at this man as if he is somehow your H. He is not and obviously has not commited once inch to being so. He considers himself single and is still in the hunt for whatever presents itself.

You let folks here reply to you and never corrected their interpretation that this M was somehow your H!!!

You must be living in a self imposed bubble or something. You live in BF is a player. He simply is taking advantage of the fact that you are willing to keep and pay for him. that's the definition of a gigalo, not a husband, or for that matter, not even a BF who gives a darn.

stop diluding yourself and see an attorney to protect the interest of you and the children. This sitch is well beyond repair, as it was totally based in your fantasy thinking to begin with.

And Mel, I wish you could be more honest, and get directly to the point.

All blessings,
Jerry